Do it again, George!

[USER777]

George W. Bush has been elected president one more time! :nohope:
This is so fucked up i don't even know what to say.. duh, we're all gonna die sooner or later.. why not sooner in a nuclear war provoced by bush..

Anyway.. every land gets the president it deserves.. in the end more people voted for him (i guess.. if he didnt manipulate again..) and thats how it is..

What do you guys think aboot it?
Voted for or against him?

[N D Hill]

actually this is only the first time he's been elected. :wink:

[evildisco]

actually this is only the first time he's been elected. :wink:

Indeed, this time you can blame fellow registrees.

[geoffd]

in Texas there were reports of people voting all democratic only to find out later that they had unintentionally voted for Bush. :$

i wouldn't be surprised if his father and brother jeb were involved in pulling some strings.

i wouldn't be surprised if the powers of satan were involved somehow either.

[Lono]

:nohope:

this is what we get for being a largely ignorant and naieve country..

watch the devision grow.. it will be fun kiddies..
were gonna take a dump on the world,,,, TEXAS STYLE!!!

-Lono

[Carnifex]

well...i heard iran is immediately protesting again(not because of bush only now) against america...soo...i see trouble brewing.
and i think its fucked up in any way.well,i as european couldn't vote so i couln't do anything against it.

[Mike Frank]

Extreme disappointment, republicans will now own congress, presidency and soon the supreme court.. time to shop around for a new country to live in.

[jetpack42]

Everyone (especially in the 18-24 age group) better not complain if they didn't vote. Funny that a few million kids could have swung the election. Too bad they are all stupid.

I think democrats have completely lost touch with rural america. Kerry wasn't enough of a compromise to swing angry conservatives. Wasn't he the 2nd most liberal senator in his last term?

I was slightly hoping that for the sake of the world, we got Kerry. But our country is fucked either way. I did not hear ONCE during the election, any of them talk about balancing the budget, the national debt, social security....and they only mention the "economy" or "jobs" or "education" as casually as I just did.

People could still make a difference writing thier congressmen, and voting en masse in 2 years.

[jwo]

Okay all you American'ts
Im gonna hold you to your word
http://www.parents.org.uk/images/suitcase.gif

get the fuck off my porch

[sparth]

jet: the WORLD has completely lost touch with rural america.

this new born christian thing, as well as these midwest republican values mixing anti-abortion, ethic, ecologic negationism, nra and firearms, are concepts very hard to understand for the people outside the US.
europe and a large part of the world is going the other way around. eradication of death penalty, kyoto, the middle east...

i see the gap growing and it scares me.

some said that if kerry had won, that would mean that worldwide terrorists would have succeeded. i really think it works the other way around. bush victory is definitely the victory of a tragic form of extremism, and USA is slowly becoming a huge suicide bomber entity at the size of a country. forgive my analogy but i'm convinced i'm not that far from the truth.

sparth

[Lauren Short]

sparth: you're pretty much dead on. as a whole the US is losing touch w/ the rest of the world. with the re-election of bush there comes a great deal of negative affects, such as the growing of the ignorant "evil terrorist" mindset about middle eastern cultures.


and jwo: it's our right and duty as americans to change what's going on around us, sadly in this case we can't do much. just because someone is unhappy w/ the country doesn't mean they have to move, saying such things as "i should find a better country to live in" is not a bad thing either, it is merely a form of expression of one's disgust w/ how our government is taking shape.


and another note: i like how bush put together that little Dr. Phil episode where their wives sat down w/ them and they all had one nice family values chat.....lmao remember folks that bush's daughters are two super-fat nasty ass drunk bitches and we all know his wife could give a damn about family and the same goes for him... pretty sure it was that episode of Dr. Phil that covinced millions of Ohioan housewives to go out and vote for the "family valuing" Bush.... sad times my friends...sad times

:nohope:

oh, and get the fuck off my porch ????


WTF is that supposed to mean? come on now, no ignorant comments here please

[WildSpruceMoose]

Move to Canada! We have lots of room as far as I know...

[evildisco]

Lets go to Mexico!!!! :vodkamachine:

[strych9ine]

Okay all you American'ts
Im gonna hold you to your word
http://www.parents.org.uk/images/suitcase.gif

get the fuck off my porch

"If you don't like what's going on in the country, then leave". What a backwards, narrowminded way of looking at this. It used to be that if you didn't like what was going on in your country, you should say it loud and mean it. Every citizen is supposed to have rights and a voice, and what we say is important. We have such a clear history of Bush's record for the past couple of years, one where church and state just couldn't be seperated. There are more beliefs to be represented other than the Conservative, Christian White frame of mind.

We're not going to get off of your porch. We're going to have to bring this shit to your front doors from now on.

[jwo]

that was only directed towards those who are quoted as saying "they will leave"

never put words in my mouth

[thebluepuppy]

Extreme disappointment, republicans will now own congress, presidency and soon the supreme court.. time to shop around for a new country to live in.
europe or canada..hmmm cant decide ;)( at least till bush is out)
oh btw repuplicans were up to their old tricks again. they intimated poor city folk and said they would be arrested at the poling places if they were to show up and try to vote if they had outstanding parking fines or child support
those dirty republicans. they start a war to bring freedom to another country but oprreess the one they live in.. this world is starting to suck

[Snakebyte]

I must admit, I was totally suppressed how things turned out. I was expecting one of two scenarios, one: Kerry victory plain and simple or Two: another 2000 election where bush won the electoral votes by a small enough margin that Kerry would contest and try to litigate his way to office and refuse to concede and make things worse. But to my surprise it couldn’t have been much smoother. (Though I have to admit that I haven’t seen or read much news since election night due to work)

I’m a Bush man so I’m happy with the way things tuned out. But I cant help but to wonder who is going to run in 08?

[strych9ine]

that was only directed towards those who are quoted as saying "they will leave"

never put words in my mouth

I didn't have to put any words in your mouth. You said it all plain as day. Granted, "get the fuck off my porch" was a lot more eloquently put than "If you don't like what's going on in the country, then leave", so next time I'll quote exactly to eliminate any confusion.

[Chingwa]

2008?

I hope our country lasts that long... I mean as the democracy it's supposed to be. The fact that Bush is probably in for another 4(or more???) years is extremely depressing. The fact that half this country has been scared and manipulated into voting for this incompetent man is beyond comprehension.

I was looking forward to election day, seeing a brighter world on the horizon, now I see nothing but blackness. :S

[Presence]

From the bottom of my Canadian heart...Good luck guys.

[JackalAnubis]

uuuug, I can't believe he got re-elected I am so confused and frustrated. I just can't believe all the people voting for bush. do they not know what's going on, or just not care about how this aggresive republican government is creating huge long term problems for america and the world? I just don't get it. lets hold on tight for the ride and see where it takes us.

[Phuzion]

I can't believe that my own fellow citizens broke my heart so drastically yesterday. We are now one step closer to destroying our environment and this beautiful world we live in. I think, Sparth, you've hit the nail on the head. We're a country-sized timebomb now. And unfortunately, Mr. Bush is not only deciding the fate of the USA, but of the Middle East, and much of the Western World as well. How could people want to put that kind of control in the hands of someone that has a record of doing nothing but pussying out of any civil responsibilities he was given, any moral responsibilities, and who preaches and quotes scriptures that he niether understands, nor believes in. He is the height of hipocracy, twisting words that hold very deep meanings to many, simply to fit a campaign based around a childish materialistic want for more toys. I am not religious, but he takes words from the Bible, takes them completely out of context and preaches them as though they were written for HIM. The entire subject of his campaign has been 9/11. New York, the place where 9/11 took place, voted 80% Kerry! He talks about ending Terrorism, well that would be nice, and I'd like to see it, but so far GW, fuck you. We had Bin Laden cornered, and Bush contracts out the operation to Bin Laden's "former" allies. And meanwhile he wages war, looking for WMDs, in a country well known to neither possess any, nor have the capabilities of creating any within the next 10 years... but let's just sweep that and the reasons for being in the Middle East in the first place under the carpet. And we, as U.S. citizens will simply turn the other cheek. Thank you sir, may I have another. These are all known facts, so what about Bush made people think he was even remotely compitent to lead in the first place, let alone AGAIN! Ah crap... /me throws up his hands... I'm depressed... disappointed... I am seriously brokenhearted and sad today.

-Daniel

[auden100]

Yeah, I'm not so thrilled that W took the cake. There was a palpable air of defeat at school today. So much for the youth vote. The presidential election and a couple of other "moral" issues that passed throughout the US has me a little uncertain about any progression of the US as a civilization in the near future. Makes me wonder what country is going to be sold out to Haliburton next. Here's to four more years. :cheers:

P.S. We'd better not talk too much like this, or we might be suspected as terrorists.

[jetpack42]

dude, there was a marginal difference between the 18-24 year olds who voted this time, and the 18-24 year olds who voted last time. The "youth vote" so to speak, hasn't achieved any respect, or credibilty. All of our lazy ass peers are so angsty, and love hanging out at anti-war rallies, but its too much work to expect them to do anything about the way they feel.

At least they had some fun, right?

[Phuzion]

Release John Hinckley! We need him! Pleeeeeease?

[thePenguin]

Everyone (especially in the 18-24 age group) better not complain if they didn't vote. Funny that a few million kids could have swung the election. Too bad they are all stupid.i must agree jet, i was listening to the radio during the rnc and heard a show talking to ppl in new york ages 18-27 who were outside the convention protesting it. 4 out of 17 of the ppl talked to on the show knew the name of the democratic candidate for president that they said they were absolutely going to vote for! ONLY 1 PERSON KNEW THE NAME OF HIS RUNNING MATE WAS NOT STU PEHD! none, absolutely NONE of those talked to, even briefly, knew anything the democratic candidate stood for or why they even liked him, other than the fact that he wasnt W (which is a good reason to like someone, but not a good reason to vote for them). holy crap! these were the average kerry supporters? no actually these were the ACTIVE kerry supporters. the ones that should have known the MOST. i lost more hope in the average human being in that age group in that 45 minutes than i have the rest of my entire life. so jet, i regret to say that you are absolutely right there.
I did not hear ONCE during the election, any of them talk about balancing the budget, the national debt, social security....and they only mention the "economy" or "jobs" or "education" as casually as I just did.too many ppl in this election voted for bush because they liked him. too many ppl in this election voted for kerry because they hated bush. you cannot take something as important as voting as lightly as you would take picking what to eat off the menu at wendy's! ppl dont understand that they should vote for the candidate they agree with on more of the issues, not just who they like or dont! thats why this election sucked so very much. because SO much of the campaign out of BOTH camps was fueled by animosity and so little on where they stood on the issues! personally, i MADE time to research every candidate in my area and every issue up for vote. i wound up voting for more democrats than republicans because of some of their stances on issues that are important to me.
I think democrats have completely lost touch with rural america. Kerry wasn't enough of a compromise to swing angry conservatives. Wasn't he the 2nd most liberal senator in his last term?another shot very near the bullseye from jet. hes officially on a roll folks. its not so much that the democrats have lost touch though, as much as the liberals have (note, there is a BIG difference between the 2). this should have been one of the easier elections the democrats have had in a long time. so instead of putting forth a candidate the embodied the majority of the democratic partys views and values, they tried to see how liberal of a politician they could promote and still get him elected. thats what lost it for the democrats. the only more liberal choice was kennedy. they could have won outright with dean, edwards, or possibly even hillary! but no, they screwed themselves by passing up any of those candidates on a leisurely stroll even farther left than ANY of them and found kerry. so it wasnt really the democrats that have lost touch, but rather the farther left liberals who shot just a little too far to the left for the voting public. if they had not picked someone that liberal i would be happy to say today that we would no longer have king bush reigning supreme >:{ .
People could still make a difference writing thier congressmen, and voting en masse in 2 years.absolutely right jet. so rather than just whine whine whine whine (with the exception of any ppl outside the usa here, who unfortunately cant help us straighten out our country) i say this, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! either that or go visit a third world country, come home and realize that its NOT all that bad here. and if that doesnt convince you its ok here then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! that is 1 of the over-riding problems in america today. no one wants to take on any responsibility, theyd rather whine or sue and blame it on somebody else. so i beg everyone of you in here (most of which seem to be quite astute) to be more active in politics than just posting in this forum. there is NO other way we can better our nation than to take on the responsibility of changing it through the legal and appropriate means.

i am very sorry that this was an obscenely large post.

[thePenguin]

We had Bin Laden cornered, and Bush contracts out the operation to Bin Laden's "former" allies.
um...good morning danny boy. kerry voted FOR that one too (AGAINST using our troops)! and then whined that we didnt use our troops in that effort at the debates (FOR using our troops), 10 minutes after complaining that we had too many of our troops involved to begin with (AGAINST using our troops). and then later in the SAME debate he said that his solution to our military problems was that he would add more troops to the armed forces (FOR using our troops)! he couldnt make up his mind for 60 consecutive minutes! i screamed and almost cried at the same time for him. i was hoping he would be a much better candidate. sadly i was wrong.

[gasmask]

i think most of you are throwing this way out of proportion, america has seen worse tiems than this, would u rather have pro military or liberals giving our power to the hands of others? this is not the end of the world and all this talk of moving to another country is rediculous, life will go on as it always has, there will always be wars and hate, shit every generation goes through it, its not like anyone is gonna nuke america over it, even if they wanted to its dam near impossible, just focus on ur lives, we arent in any immediate danger of bush being re-elected. (by the way i dont like kerry or bush so dont think im some bush supporter cause i agree hes a moron)

[thePenguin]

...gasmask.......thank you for the great words of common sense.

[Form]

sometimes a nation needs to rise to supremacy before it can fall.

Just like the romans, every great force will have its time and then wane....allowing balance to continue. America has had its few hunred years of global supremacy (hollywood, brand names, military, religion, ideology, the list goes on).

Eventually the balance will turn to europe.... or asia.....or who knows?? America simply cannot stand at the top of the ladder forever....its evolution.

Lets put things in perspective.
We are all just a means to an end....

[SeraphSword]

I think part of the problem with the turnout in the youth vote, is that younger people still have a bit of idealism, and they don't see any ideal candidates (at least not from the big 2). You never feel inspired by this or that candidate, you get that this guy or the other is a bit closer to what you're looking for, so that's who you choose. I certainly wouldn't be the first to point out that it comes to choosing the lesser of two evils. And younger people hate that.

While I agree the country has been through rougher times, I can't imagine we've ever had a worse president. The past two elections have completely shaken my faith in my fellow americans. That they would choose him and all he stands for, makes me feel ill. It makes me feel like an outsider, not able to comprehend what my home is becoming, and unable to fathom the people that live there.

Interesting also to note that the Republicans were able to change certain voting districts (I'm thinking of Texas) and screw Democratic incumbents out of office. Republicans seem much more willing to resort to dirty tricks to win (I'm thinking of last election, with the questions Bush's pollsters asked people regarding McCain).

Now that Bush doesn't have to worry about being re-elected again, I'm going to be waiting for the other shoe to drop as he forges his "legacy". But if you voted for him, remember when the next 4 years go to hell, you asked for it.

[gasmask]

times are a bit different from the romans my friend, its not like people these days are willing to drop everything and go to war on the drop of a hat like back then, italy is still very much in tact as well, times are a bit more stable then when the world was on such a rise meaning political,religious,etc its not like america is going to be invaded like rome, its impossible

[Form]

im not talking about military dominance. im taking about the balance of the world. yin and yang....

america doesnt have to be invaded. it could be fucked from the inside- economically - causing europe to rise as a new global dominant - creating its own mainstream media like hollywood, influencing the rest of the world like america does now.

Im viewing it from an overall standpoint. Time shows that great nations rise and fall, and america has (in my belief) seen its peak days. Time to restore the balance. Who knows how it will happen? Terrorism and war may not even play a part...

[NOOSE]

I have a BAAAAAAD feeling about this.....

[Form]

to reiterate, what you said about italy - the romans were the dominant force in the world. the italians arent any more. america is - you see wat i mean? all im saying is one group cannot hold power over others forever. natural balance will always restore itself somehow

[gasmask]

there is no balance, its simply who can stay king of the mountain the longest, just because others fell off doesnt mean its reason for america to, its probable i agree but i doubt ill see that day

[thePenguin]

note that the Republicans were able to change certain voting districts (I'm thinking of Texas) and screw Democratic incumbents out of office. Republicans seem much more willing to resort to dirty tricks to win...wow, more and more partisan bias from another here apparently. its called redistricting seraph. both parties do it every time the population significantly changes in any given area. stop seeing the world only the way you want to.

[DragonGX]

The thing that scares me is that 75% of the people who vote don't know anthing about the issues. it jsut seems like "being liberal" is the in thing for youth today... which is completely stupid...

There's so much going on in my head about all this, i dont haev the time or energy to type it out, but so many people complain about Bush and praise KErry, when they haven't got a clue... it makes me sick.. there should be a pre-vote test on the issues and you only get to vote if you pass it.

[steak-tron]

I watched some scary predictions for the economy today, mainly the value of the dollar. Our debt is going to fuck us for years now with all of the military spending, and as far as military spending is concerned, the neo-conservatives are, ironically, liberal (in the definitive sense). I honestly hope Iraq is the last stop for preemptive strikes but somehow I don't think this debacle is over. We're almost out of volunteer soldiers, though they claim a draft is out of the question...

Whoever inherits the office from Bush is going to get served a steaming platter of shit, and look bad for it. Huge debts setup huge problems with a delayed reaction, like a time bomb for us when we all get middle aged.

All this and 4 more years to limit more rights for the individual. In trying to rationalize this outcome I'm starting to think that most of the decision was a result of homophobia. It's rampant here in the south. The scare tactics of the B/C campaign were deplorable, but more so is that it worked like a charm on the American public, bringing out the best in us eh.

I hope I'm wrong about the gloomy predictions, but I feel the same as on Nov2 2000 and 9/11. Uncertain.

Really uplifting stuff...

[DragonGX]

here's a sample:


The Assault Weapons Ban (AWB)


Cliff notes of the ban: Assault Weapons aren't banned, for the most part, excluding some certain rare types that most people couldn't get anyways. The ban only banned certain aesthetic features of assault weapons (what an evil name!) like bayonet lugs, flash hiders, collapsible stocks, pistol grips, etc... But it's ok to haev 3 or less.... but apparently 4 or more turns a fun sporting rifle into an evil deadly assault rifle (ignoring the fact that the rifles all shoot the same ammo at the same rate with or without these aesthetic features)

Anyways, politicians make such a big deal out of it, and people hwo don't know anythign about it hear "assault weapon ban" and decide to support it, even though they don't know what it entails..

Here are some facts and opinions:

Assault Weapons are used in less than 1% of violent crimes. I can back this up. I'm a police dispatcher and I have NEVER had a call where someone was violently brandishing an assault weapon. Almost all violent crimes are comitted with handguns or other non-firearm weapons.

Seriously, when is the last time you heard of a driveby bayonetting?

People seem to think that the AWB prohibited people from buying assault weapons. I even get an email from a friend that was pro gun control and said this:

"The AWB has expired. Now any 18 year old buy a gun without any background check. We need it put back into place."

People are forwarding that around to each other and it is completely FALSE! An 18 year old could buy a gun even when the AWB was in place. And ther are background checks. I had one done when I bought my pistol (for self defense and carrying) and I had one done when I bought my AK-47 (for fun!).

That email was more than enough proof to me that people are voicing thier OPINIONS (more like forcing them onto others) even when they do not fully understand the issues that they so strongly persue. I emailed the person who sent that to me, and told them what i thought about it... She even admitted to me that she only supported it because it sounded like something she should support, and that she really didn't know anything about it.. She then thanked me for giving her my opinion and opening her eyes.


That is one issue out of many...

Don't even get me started on social security.

[DragonGX]

I watched some scary predictions for the economy today, mainly the value of the dollar. Our debt is going to fuck us for years now with all of the military spending, and as far as military spending is concerned, the neo-conservatives are, ironically, liberal (in the definitive sense). I honestly hope Iraq is the last stop for preemptive strikes but somehow I don't think this debacle is over. We're almost out of volunteer soldiers, though they claim a draft is out of the question...

Whoever inherits the office from Bush is going to get served a steaming platter of shit, and look bad for it. Huge debts setup huge problems with a delayed reaction, like a time bomb for us when we all get middle aged.

All this and 4 more years to limit more rights for the individual. In trying to rationalize this outcome I'm starting to think that most of the decision was a result of homophobia. It's rampant here in the south. The scare tactics of the B/C campaign were deplorable, but more so is that it worked like a charm on the American public, bringing out the best in us eh.

I hope I'm wrong about the gloomy predictions, but I feel the same as on Nov2 2000 and 9/11. Uncertain.

Really uplifting stuff...




Kerrys "plans for action" were estimated to cost much more than Bushs... And to be honest, I think the Iraq situation would be much worse off if Kerry had taken over.

Kerrys domestic policies make me shudder... Medicare? More Taxes to pay for his huge plans? More government control? Ugh..

[jetpack42]

I am the only hope for america.

[steak-tron]

Kerrys "plans for action" were estimated to cost much more than Bushs... And to be honest, I think the Iraq situation would be much worse off if Kerry had taken over.
Kerrys domestic policies make me shudder... Medicare? More Taxes to pay for his huge plans? More government control? Ugh..


I actually do agree with free-market economic policies and smaller government. For these reasons I wasn't crazy about Kerry. But I didn't see him launching more military campaigns.

About government controls. Government shouldn't tell you who you can/can't marry. Or tell a woman what to do with her body. Gun control: I don't own automatics or care to but we do have the right to bear arms. Drug laws: we should be the judge of what we put in our body but heroin at the quick-stop raises questions.

Iraq is going to cost much more if it's not resolved quickly and correctly, but that argument is relative, so hopefully it will be.

Kerry was a mediocre candidate, but Bush scored lower on my card.
Discourse and disagreement are healthy byproducts of a healthy democracy so I don't expect a party to give me policies I agree with 100%. I take where they stand and weigh the importance of their proposed policies.

I wonder how I would have felt during the 80's when Reagan was provoking the Soviets, which were in actuality an evil empire. But I imagine allot of people feared the worst and didn't appreciate the president risking nuclear war. The history books show Reagan using decisive action to end the cold war, so I think this largely influences the president's policies. If he shuts down Al Queda he'll go down like that too. So far I'm not convinced.

Every age has it's woes and troubles, I'm thankful global destruction is not as much of a possibility as during that time. Islamic militants strike me as less of a threat than the Soviet empire, so I hope the prez gets it done and moves on.

[steak-tron]

Jetpack42 is the only candidate I support on everything.

[Lono]

ill vote for you jetpack.. provided that you can drive a 6 inch spike through a two by four with your penis..

thats very important for a president.

bush couldnt do that shit.. however,, he would find a not so clever way to convince a few million people that he can without even showing them proof of it... now THATS a good manipulator,,,,, i mean,, leader.

:nohope:

-Lono

[Sinix]

Isn't it great to be completely at the mercy of non-progressive, bible-thumping, rural states? :nohope:

I've been more distraught over the inadequacies of both parties.. can't stand them. In the old days, if things would have gotten this bad, new parties might have emerged with a majority of one party branching off... I don't see that happening these days. I'll sit here hoping for some sort of progressive neodisestablishmentarianist party. It could happen? Maybe in 100 years. :[

Ps: Hey Dragon, they even recently made 50 caliber rifles illegal here.. despite the fact one has never even been used in ay sort of crime, sporting only.

[jetpack42]

"when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns"
as my father says.

[jermainevl]

That´s very interesting what you said Form, about empires rising and falling and I totally agree with you. I think that the US will hold dominance in the world in the 21st century, but will lose its position as the most dominant region (on economics) to China. However the US will probably be the world´s only true superpower until the next century. At least that´s what I think.

[Travis_Bourbeau]

Personally I am going to vote for Dan Milligan next time just because he’s super cool and really wise ;)



Tonight when I was at dinner across from me and my wife were 2 couples celebrating Bush’s Win they asked who we voted for I said Kerry and asked why they voted for Bush they said that the economy was fine and that they felt bush was creating jobs etc etc They then looked at me and asked why I voted for Kerry

I said because I have traveled to 14 different states this year and have gone into homes across America where people have a 200 or 300,000 dollar home but no food in the cupboards or no furniture in the house they have cars financed for 7 years and there children are on public assistance for school lunches they work 70 hour work weeks for overtime but not to get ahead because they mostly all are making about 10,000 to 20,000 dollars less than they were a few years ago One of the most dramatic statistics I have heard is that there are more homeless people now than any other time in the us history but the reason is that there are tons of homeless families that are working full time jobs but cant afford to pay rent and childcare or healthcare


It bothers me when we hear how there have been over a million jobs created in the past year when 1 in 5 Americans work at wall mart because its the best job they can get because there is no push for tech or companies like gm get a 5 million dollar credit a year for a factory to keep 800 employees hired when they sent 3000 jobs from that same plant to Mexico ? why not take away the tax cut for sending 3000 jobs away And that’s just the economy Foreign relations is so obvious I didn’t even go into it

needless to say they just stared for a minute and one said you know if I would have known these things I probably would have voted for Kerry

Maybe bush will get good advice and learn to push technology like the internets or maybe national broadband

The one good thing about this election is hopefully other countries can see all americans arent the same


Sparth hope you can make it out to the workshop again I enjoyed talking politics with ya man!


Peace
Trav

[Hanuka]

It's good to see, most of you guys and artists are more reasonable and educated than the average american voter. Thank god.

The only good reason for voting bush, i can think of, is, that he has to live with his politic's consequences that way.

[Slash]

bible-thumping

Lol, i like that word! :blahblah:

[AnarchyAo2]

Heh, I live in one of those rural "bible-thumping" states. I actually live smack-dab in the middle of the "Bible Belt". Someone kill me, I'm surrounded by jesus freaks.

[sparth]

http://img112.exs.cx/img112/3172/kerrywins01.jpg

LOL

travis: same here, was a pleasure.
nicely said btw.

[bRyaN]

All i can say is shit is certainly gonna hit the fan...

And all you Middle American citizens...voted for Bush, cause they don't have to worry about what happens on the Coast cities most likely to be attacked by terrorists....

Be comfortable in you samll towns (population 300)....i don't think terrorists are gonna fly planes into your small out of the way houses...

Slight sarcasm but

y'all get the point

[the_blur]

.... its not like anyone is gonna nuke america over it ...

Don't count on this. I predict the mujahideen hitting America with WMD's in the next 4 years. Especially after Iran develops nuclear weapons. Oh yeah and I also predict that the US will also still be embroiled in Iraq -- so the army will be stretched.

[Octave13]

Exit Polls (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1290765&mesg_id=1290765&page)

Diebold voting machines (http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00211.htm)

How they stole it again (http://www.ejfi.org/Voting/Voting-20.htm)

So much for democracy... Hello patriot act 2. Good bye freedom.

[USER777]

[QUOTE=Octave13]Exit Polls (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1290765&mesg_id=1290765&page)

Diebold voting machines (http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00211.htm)

How they stole it again (http://www.ejfi.org/Voting/Voting-20.htm)

wow.. good links. the "how they could have stolen it again" one is really interesting! :rolleyes: proves once more that politicians can't be trusted.. at least not the big ones. they all got their personal corpses in the backyard or are behind some big nasty fraud/crime.

[grey]

What do you guys think aboot it?
Voted for or against him?

I'm trying to be moderate and respect other folks' opinions, but this pretty much sums it up for me:
Time Election Results (http://www.greystudio.com/junk/timecover10.jpg)

[helix7]

And all you Middle American citizens...voted for Bush, cause they don't have to worry about what happens on the Coast cities most likely to be attacked by terrorists....

Be comfortable in you samll towns (population 300)....i don't think terrorists are gonna fly planes into your small out of the way houses...

Slight sarcasm but

y'all get the point

Funny how terrorism was such a big issue in this election, but in NY, the city most impacted by terrorism during the first Bush term, overwhelmingly voted for Kerry. Apparently we don't know what is good for us in terms of protecting ourselves from terrorism.

:\

[wes9000]

.




http://static.vidvote.com/movies/bushuncensored.mov








.

[Jan]

sparth : My map is different.(India is 34 Kerry/33 W. here),Uruguay is 37 K./5 W.,and the Phillipines 32 K./57 W.(PIPA,univ. Maryland)

the_blur : The last bio-weapons came from the U.S. itself,remember the anthrax-letters?(Fort Detrick)

[grey]

Funny how terrorism was such a big issue in this election, but in NY, the city most impacted by terrorism during the first Bush term, overwhelmingly voted for Kerry. Apparently we don't know what is good for us in terms of protecting ourselves from terrorism.

:\

yeah I noticed that . . . for those of us who saw that day with our own eyes it's pretty galling

[LaPalida]

http://img112.exs.cx/img112/3172/kerrywins01.jpg


ehehehehehe

[I0N]

I am honestly very scared about the U.S's future, phuzion jetpack sparth you guys already said what I wanted to say. form you said exactly what I was thinking but didint want to say. I dont want to die soon...

lets just hope that the horror of bush's reelection isnt as bad as we think it is
and we can all look back at this and laugh about how ignorant the U.S. was

[LaPalida]

http://www.20mm.net/images/jesusland.jpg

yeah baby!

[fukifino]

lol LaPalida. Sad but true. :/

My friend Scott had some interesting points that he posted on my forums:


It's only a day after, and I'm tired of the whining. Let me ask you a question. Who did you vote for in the Democrat's primary? Can you even name any of the other canidates? I'm willing to bet your answer is no. Therefore it's your fault Bush won along with the rest of the other Democrats that fielded such a weak canidate.

I wanted to vote Bush out of the office this year. I wanted to vote for a Democrat even though I'm registered Republican, but you gave me Kerry. Why couldn't you have at least nominated Dean, Clark or Edwards when you had the chance? Oh that's right, you didn't get involved when you had a chance. You didn't get involved when _you_ could have made a differnce. I bet you can't even tell me the relative strenghts and weaknesses of the other Democrat canidates.

What's that you say? Kerry won all the primaries? Go compare the number of voters that participated in the primaries to those that voted for the president. Astounding, you let a small group pick "the least offensive" canidate instead of one that actually stood for something. You had the foolish belief that anyone is better than Bush, so you let them pick the canidate for you.

I hope you learned you were wrong. I hope next time around you get involved earlier. Get involved in the primaries! I hope you pick a stronger canidate.

Remeber this famous saying:

"You can please some of the people all of the time.
You can please all of the people some of the time.
But you can't please all of the people, all of the time."

That's why Kerry lost. He tried to be everything to everybody. He tried to be a war hero, gun owner and liberal all at the same time. He said and I quote "going to Iraq was the right thing to do, we just did it the wrong way." What he should have said is "going to Iraq, was wrong period. Now I'm gonig to clean it up." He didn't. He tried to find a message that would please everybody.

You've got four years to fix your mistakes gang. Don't let it happen again. Don't be fooled into thinking that Kerry came so close this year, that he'll win next time. He won't. If he's nominated again, McCain (should he choose to run) is going to mop the floor with him.

Our political process doesn't start and stop at the Presidental election. And if that's the only time you got involved; the only time you bothered to vote; the only time you bothered to think about polictics you deserve what you got.


Mind you, I'm an independant, and I don't think I could have changed Kerry being on the ballot in the primaries either way, but I will admit that for me, the final election was pretty much the be all end all of it for me. How many of the rest of you actually got involved early?

Just some food for thought.

[grey]

http://www.20mm.net/images/jesusland.jpg

yeah baby!

now that scared me.

[USER777]

.

http://static.vidvote.com/movies/bushuncensored.mov

.

WTF!!?? is this fur real?? if it is.. no, it can't. must be a bad joke, otherwise..
WE'RE ALL SOOO FUCKED!!
:$ :$
:uzi2: :uzi2: :happypatriot: :patriot: :uzi: :uzi:

[steak-tron]

hahaha.... would have been great if he did his juvenile snicker right after.

[cotron]

WTF!!?? is this fur real?? :

Yeah it's real, back when he was governor of texas... what a gentleman he is.

[jester]

I knew hours before Bush was announced president that this would happen. What I don't understand from my ignorant European/German view is how the hell one can announce someone winner when not all the votes have been counted yet? It's really sad: You Americans taught us democracy - and that was the best thing that could happen to us after WWII - and now we have to be witnesses of this country faking votes. I can't believe it. And for the second time, that is!

Any one of you ever thought that the Bush administration doesn't want to find Bin Laden? Apart from the connections of the Bush family to their family, he just set the country into the right mood to cut down human rights. To start a war. And he was so kind to send a "reminder" video just in time before the elections, i.e. last weekend. Coincidence?

Usually I don't post on religious, political or sexual matters on the net, but I couldn't keep me from it this time. It's good to know that more than half of you voted for Kerry and are sensible, reasonable people. There's hope.

Jester

[jetpack42]

jester, the reason the annouce a winner without counting every single vote is because there is a margin bigger then the odds. for example, in a state, if there were 50,000 ballots left to count, but bush/kerry is winning by 200,000 votes, it doesn't make any difference if they wait and count the ballots, and people want a winner as soon as possible, so they announce it.

[gasmask]

blur... i dont think iran would just nuke us nor do i think any country would, maybe terrorists but even if they get a nuke its close to impossible to carry out a nuclear attack on the US, they would be more likely to go after our allies.

[sparth]

lapalida: that thing is SO funny couldn't stop laughing ... :^^:

another one: marry an american (http://www.marryanamerican.ca/)

LOL

[grey]

marry an american (http://www.marryanamerican.ca/)

that's brilliant, we should expand the effort to greater Europe, the Caribbean, maybe Australia too; let's get the hell outta here!

[jfrancis]

http://www.boingboing.net/images/Purple-USA.jpg

[USER777]

after all this talk i've still got one question:
WHY DID SO MANY PEOPLE VOTE FOR BUSH!? he proved well enough that he is a complete idiot who does nothing but bullshit.
i dont get it.. people who voted for him must be completely ignorant or naive..
:rolleyes: :upset: :[ :( :nohope: :nohope: >:| >:{

[jetpack42]

sparth- that is a great find! hahaah

[jester]

jetpack, yep, I see. So it all comes down to your voting system then. Because as far as I remember from 2000 and as far as I've taken it from the news (ours and yours, correct me if I'm wrong) in absolute numbers more people have voted for Kerry (resp. Gore) but since who wins the majority in one state gets all their - hmm I miss the right vocabulary - "vote men" this -sort of gets a bit inaccurate IMO.

Anyway, it can't be helped, that's the way it is.

Jester

[jetpack42]

We have a system set up by our founders called the Electoral College. It works to help prevent cities, large populous areas, and uninformed voters from carrying an election. Each state is worth a certain amount of points, based on population. California is worth 55. New Hampshire is worth 4. and so on. Once the total vote is tabulated in a state, the canidate with the most votes in that state wins all the points. The canidate who wins 270 points wins the election. This system helps lesser populated states have a bigger impact, and more populated areas have a lesser impact..to a small degree.

[jester]

jetpack, that's exactly what I think is inaccurate - why shouldn't a city or state with more people have more influence??? That would mean for Germany, that a small populated county like Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (Northern Germany) with only a few people living there would have the same impact as North-Rhine-Westfalia (where I live and which has one of the highest if not the highest population in Germany). Why should they, with their "minor" problems decide what is of importance for us with our "big" problems? Here's a downright percentage votage for the seats in the "Bundestag". Anyway, our political landscape is rather different from yours, with many more parties, so you've got more choice. Parties have to form coalitions to get enough percentage to be eligible to rule the country. I feel that this is more "just" and represents the people of a nation much better.

In our media there was an intensive discussion on the "modernity" of voting systems previous to your election (which was a major part on our News Channels).

Jester

[Jan]

jester : O.k.,but 1:1-solutions are rare.Minorities must be protected,why should smaller states want to be part of the U.S.,when larger ones decide it all?
But i think it's useless that when there are many states close to 50:50 even at a slight advantage all voices go to the winner.
But luckily,it seems to represent the total percentage(if the robots had less influence this time).
I think thats nice that we have some more parties in germany,but we still don't have such a choice.We are ruled by red-green,they wanted to sell the somewhat antiquated nuclear-power-plant Hanau to China,now they have plans to sell LeoII-tanks to turkey,despite they knew they would be used against the Kurds.And the Jugoslavia-war was started with lies-because it was a war(KZ for example).So this is the more peace-loving-government the people here have chosen.

[jfrancis]

Palast: Kerry won, here's the facts.
Harper's Magazine contributing editor Greg Palast argues that election management in Ohio was hopelessly b0rked, and that the state was unfairly and inaccurately declared a win for Bush. Snip from editor's intro to his latest feature, on Tompaine.com:

Bush won Ohio by 136,483 votes. Typically in the United States, about 3 percent of votes cast are voided -- known as “spoilage” in election jargon -- because the ballots cast are inconclusive. Drawing on what happened in Florida and studies of elections past, Palast argues that if Ohio’s discarded ballots were counted, Kerry would have won the state. Today, the Cleveland Plain Dealer reports there are a total of 247,672 votes not counted in Ohio, if you add the 92,672 discarded votes plus the 155,000 provisional ballots. So far there's no indication that Palast's hypothesis will be tested because only the provisional ballots are being counted.

And snip from Palast's story:

Most voters in Ohio thought they were voting for Kerry. CNN's exit poll showed Kerry beating Bush among Ohio women by 53 percent to 47 percent. Kerry also defeated Bush among Ohio's male voters 51 percent to 49 percent. Unless a third gender voted in Ohio, Kerry took the state.

So what's going on here? Answer: the exit polls are accurate. Pollsters ask, "Who did you vote for?" Unfortunately, they don't ask the crucial, question, "Was your vote counted?" The voters don't know Here's why. Although the exit polls show that most voters in Ohio punched cards for Kerry-Edwards, thousands of these votes were simply not recorded. This was predictable and it was predicted. Once again, at the heart of the Ohio uncounted vote game are, I'm sorry to report, hanging chads and pregnant chads, plus some other ballot tricks old and new.

http://www.boingboing.net/2004/11/04/palast_kerry_won_her.html

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won_.php

[mconnors]

I read in an earlier post that people were confused how new yorkers can vote kerry even post 9/11. I live in NYC and was here on 9/11, (I was at Jeckyle and Hydes under the bar on Varick street) I know very little about politics and I voted kerry for 2 reasons. First my dad (who had passed away a long time ago) use to watch cspan all the time, he was a brilliant guy, special education professor and was a huge kerry supporter because he thought kerry was a straight shooter. This was around 96-97- liked I said he watched cspan like most people watch sports. The second reason was because I just think bush is completely dishonest. He gets caught in a lie all the time. I aksed my friends who voted bush why they did and the biggest response was terrorism-

In my opinion I don't think people realize how diverse NY is. But I was curious about peoples opinion on that- would kerry have let another 9/11 happen, or was that just the big fear bush played on. It seems to me thats the big reason we have 4 more years of bush.

And I know it sounds paranoid but I agree with the German guy in the earlier thread how its very strange OBL would release a speech the weekend before an election, it does sound paranoid but it is very curious.

[James Kei]

http://pics.livejournal.com/pradagirl/pic/0000ax99/s320x240

[DragonGX]

I don't know how any of you that live outside of the US can voice your opinion on who should have won. You don't live here. We didn't vote for the president ONLY on the issue of Iraq and international affairs. There are many reasons why I voted for Bush, and alot of them have to do with domestic issues. I really doubt that many of you know much about the USAs social security program, medical care programs, taxes, etc because it doesn't involve you.

To be quite honest, I think Bush will take care of Iraq much better than Kerry would be able to. Kerry flip flops too much... During the election process he said things like "We should never have went to war" and "We need to pull troops out" and at the same time he said "I will hunt down terrorists" and he even AGREED with going to war in the first place when the Bush administration declared war. Which is he going to do? How can he do both at the same time?

And to anyone who says Bush is dishonest, you must either be blindly liberal, not in touch with the issues that he talked about, or very anti-bush. I watched some of Kerrys speeches, and he blatantly lied in every one of them about many issues.. Most of the people watching were probably liberals who really couldn't care if Kerry was lying to them or not, but it really made me lose any trust I had in him seeing it happen over and over. Flip-flopping is one thing, but blatantly lying to get peoples votes is a completely wrong thing to do.

But hey, that is the world of politics. :nohope:

[jetpack42]

miniwillinois. lol.

[seb]

I don't know how any of you that live outside of the US can voice your opinion on who should have won. You don't live here. We didn't vote for the president ONLY on the issue of Iraq and international affairs.... I really doubt that many of you know much about the USAs social security program, medical care programs, taxes, etc because it doesn't involve you.

please be nice to the foreigners; i'm tired of telling people im a canadian when i travel.

they have their right to their own commentary on the state of american affairs as we do regarding their countries. on a personal basis, i find that most non-american citizens i meet and work with are very well versed on current events and have an interesting take on the state of the nation.

[Chingwa]

Dragon GX your post is so chock-full of propogandized words and labels that I can't even take it seriosly. just for kicks I looked up the word liberal in Webster's New World dictionary...

liberal - favoring reform or progress, as in religion, education etc; specif., favoring political reforms tending toward democracy and personal freedom for the individual; progressive.

What the hell is so wrong with that??? Perhaps I shoulda read the Old World dictionary instead... :rolleyes:

[N D Hill]

http://pics.livejournal.com/pradagirl/pic/0000ax99/s320x240

I wish.

[DragonGX]

please be nice to the foreigners; i'm tired of telling people im a canadian when i travel.

they have their right to their own commentary on the state of american affairs as we do regarding their countries. on a personal basis, i find that most non-american citizens i meet and work with are very well versed on current events and have an interesting take on the state of the nation.


I know that came off a bit rude, I didn't mean it that way. I'm just saying that it seems to me that most foreigners (people and news stations, etc) are extremely biased towards Kerry/Liberalism. I was watching some french newscast on TV the other night and the anchorman was extremely biased and even rude towards Bush and the Republican party. From what I gathered about what he said, it seemed as if he really didn't know the specifics about the issues that he was so interested in.

I'm not saying all foreigners don't know anything about our government, but it seems like many of them are extremely biased based only on our foreign affairs issues.

[seb]

true. as far as i understand it, much of the civilized world is more liberal and progressive than we are which goes in line with their distaste for Bush and our current election.

[DragonGX]

Dragon GX your post is so chock-full of propogandized words and labels that I can't even take it seriosly. just for kicks I looked up the word liberal in Webster's New World dictionary...

liberal - favoring reform or progress, as in religion, education etc; specif., favoring political reforms tending toward democracy and personal freedom for the individual; progressive.

What the hell is so wrong with that??? Perhaps I shoulda read the Old World dictionary instead... :rolleyes:


Obviously you aren't aware that most of us in the US called extreme democrats "liberals" just as extreme republicans are called "conservatives".. seriously, if you didn't even know that, please don't post anything about politics untill you learn a little.

theres a difference between the literal meaning of liberal (it also means in excess ie: using a liberal amount of paint in impasto brushwork) and the label we give to democrats.

[DragonGX]

I'd also like to know what kind of propaganda I am spewing out... I never said I was fully in favor of Bush.. I think there are better Republican (or Conservative) candidates... I consider myself to be educated quit a bit more than the average voter about political issues, and I listen to both sides and make my decision. not everyone is completely biased. I voted for many reaons which i researched and keep current on, and I'm glad my candidate won. I'm not a Bush fan-boy.. I listened to many of Kerrys speeches and all of the presidential debates, and I chose Bush. It is as simple as that.

[OSU_Samurai]

I wish.

ditto


Has anyone seen this? It's probably going piss a lot of people off, because its 90 bull shit, but the animation and music is super sweet.

http://www.knife-party.net/flash/barry.html

I figured since we are on the topic of politics, might as well just post it here.

[benzo]

theres a difference between the literal meaning of liberal (it also means in excess ie: using a liberal amount of paint in impasto brushwork) and the label we give to democrats.

that is so true.

I personally think today's conservatives fit the literal definition of liberal more so than today's liberal democrats.

For example, how is expanding government programs, which liberals advocate, going to give you more personal freedoms?

You see, the meaning is not literal at all.

If you really want to be "liberal", literally, perhaps you should look up the Libertarian Party.

[the_blur]

Obviously you aren't aware that most of us in the US called extreme democrats "liberals" just as extreme republicans are called "conservatives".. seriously, if you didn't even know that, please don't post anything about politics untill you learn a little.

Here in canada, we call your democrats conservatives and your republicans fascists. :bashful: :} :dead:

[Chingwa]

I just think we can all do better out of these discussions by getting our points across without resorting to these labels. The complexities that make up an individuals beliefs and motives should be respected. I know my own beliefs are far more complex than any word/label/group/religion can encompass. I assume a lot of other people are the same way.

I mean come on! Don't these labels kinda mute the intelligence of the discussion:
And to anyone who says Bush is dishonest, you must either be blindly liberal, not in touch with the issues that he talked about, or very anti-bush. I watched some of Kerrys speeches, and he blatantly lied in every one of them about many issues.. Most of the people watching were probably liberals who really couldn't care if Kerry was lying to them or not, but it really made me lose any trust I had in him seeing it happen over and over. Flip-flopping is one thing, but blatantly lying to get peoples votes is a completely wrong thing to do.

And I don't think I'm FACTUALLY wrong by saying Bush IS a liar. Analyze the facts not your emotions.

[DragonGX]

that is so true.

I personally think today's conservatives fit the literal definition of liberal more so than today's liberal democrats.

For example, how is expanding government programs, which liberals advocate, going to give you more personal freedoms?

You see, the meaning is not literal at all.

If you really want to be "liberal", literally, perhaps you should look up the Libertarian Party.


That is exactly what I thought when I first got into politics. The labels really don't fit the parties. Liberals are all for government control.. They want to incorporate it into their policies, while Conservativesare more ofr personal freedoms..

I agree.. If there was more support for the Independants, I would probably ive my support to them... One of my main concerns is our social security, because it affects me every 2 weeks when I get my paycheck. They are all for getting rid of our soc sec system and letting the citizens choose how their money is invested for their own future. That is a BIG deal to me.

[DragonGX]

I just think we can all do better out of these discussions by getting our points across without resorting to these labels. The complexities that make up an individuals beliefs and motives should be respected. I know my own beliefs are far more complex than any word/label/group/religion can encompass. I assume a lot of other people are the same way.

I mean come on! Don't these labels kinda mute the intelligence of the discussion:


And I don't think I'm FACTUALLY wrong by saying Bush IS a liar. Analyze the facts not your emotions.



I never said Bush was completely trustworthy, I mean these ARE politicians we are talking about. But from what I heard in speeches, essays, etc, Kerry is much more dishonest than Bush.

these "labels" are terms that the policial world uses.. they aren't personal labels that I am giving to groups. anyone that knows anythign about politics should know that democrats are reffered to as liberals and republicans as conservatives.. and like I just said, the labels are just labels, their meanings don't really relate to the actual parties beliefs/policies. If it were up to me, I would reverse it and call Republicans Liberals and Democrats Conservatives.

[DragonGX]

Here in canada, we call your democrats conservatives and your republicans fascists. :bashful: :} :dead:


I don't see why, where republicans are more for personal freedoms and democrats are for more government control... :blahblah:

[Cat]

I'm just saying that it seems to me that most foreigners (people and news stations, etc) are extremely biased towards Kerry/Liberalism. I was watching some french newscast on TV the other night and the anchorman was extremely biased and even rude towards Bush and the Republican party. From what I gathered about what he said, it seemed as if he really didn't know the specifics about the issues that he was so interested in.

I'm not saying all foreigners don't know anything about our government, but it seems like many of them are extremely biased based only on our foreign affairs issues.

I don't hear you complaining about the anchormen/women over at the Fox network. They're not exactly impartial and they're even extremely rude to people that have a different opinion.. I've heard the word shut up too many times on fox. And what the hell was up with that whole "Kerry's French" shit?! :nohope:
Don't underestimate our knowledge, we have the right to hate Bush as much as we like, because that hillbilly stands for everything we disagree with.
I'm not saying Europe is perfect, but atleast we're going forward.

If i lived in the us.. i'd move my ass to Canada.

[seb]

I don't see why, where republicans are more for personal freedoms and democrats are for more government control... :blahblah

i wouldnt say government control. i would say larger federal government. republicans favor states rights, which makes it ironic that several states have had state judges rule in favor of same sex marriages to be over turned by federal appeals courts. democrats usually are in favor of expanding programs like social security, wellfare, etc.

i think jon stewart had a great line on the daily show. "The red states are punishing us for controlling the tvs."

[DragonGX]

I don't hear you complaining about the anchormen/women over at the Fox network. They're not exactly impartial and they're even extremely rude to people that have a different opinion.. I've heard the word shut up too many times on fox. And what the hell was up with that whole "Kerry's French" shit?! :nohope:
Don't underestimate our knowledge, we have the right to hate Bush as much as we like, because that hillbilly stands for everything we disagree with.
I'm not saying Europe is perfect, but atleast we're going forward.

If i lived in the us.. i'd move my ass to Canada.


If that isn't an ignorant statement, I don't know what is. I can generalize all I want about Canadians, just as much as you can about Bush and Texans. Thats where he is from, thats where he got his personality. I haven't seen any pictures of Bush sitting outside of his backwoods trailer taking pop shots at trespassers with his shotgun.. Oh that's right, his family is wealthy and he lives in the White House... :rolleyes:

It's only fair that Fox News has somewhat of a bias.. Look at CNN and other networks, the majority of networks are liberal biased, so don't get into a tissy fit about Fox News being a little to the right. :rolleyes:
And I'm not sure what this "Kerrys French" thing is about. I've never seen it.

Maybe you should open your eyes and your mind a little bit rather than showing hatred for our President. Why do you have so much concern for what OUR leader is doing? Seriously, the world isn't going to end because of Bush.

As far as the USA not going forward, do you really think Kerry would have made us progress any further? Look into the policies and his potential vision for his Presidency... I didn't see anything that would make us progress, which is why I didn't vote for him.

[DragonGX]

i wouldnt say government control. i would say larger federal government. republicans favor states rights, which makes it ironic that several states have had state judges rule in favor of same sex marriages to be over turned by federal appeals courts. democrats usually are in favor of expanding programs like social security, wellfare, etc.

i think jon stewart had a great line on the daily show. "The red states are punishing us for controlling the tvs."


I wouldn't say that they are in favor of expanding soc security.. to be honest, the system is a mess and I think that we need to get rid of it and create a new system. Getting rid of it will be tough job since so many people depend on it now.. I think that individual citizens should be able to take care of thier own soc security (whatever you earn yourself and is deducted should be put into a federal soc sec account) and you can invest it how you want, rather than putting it into a pool which will be running dry by the time i am eligible. I think with the money invested, people would be able to earn more money than the current system would ever give them. I mean seriously, would you rather have a good percentage taken out now, and in the future only be recieving a few hundred bucks a month, or have it invested in any fund of your choice, and having hundreds of thousands of dollars when you retire (poss even millions, depending on what you make)?

Unfortunately, the democrats still think that this system is the ideal system, and don't want to change it. It is a perfect example of how government control has completely failed. That is one reason why I wish that Independants had more support..

As for welfare, the way I see it is like this:

Democrats: "Heres some money to help you out.." which is never ending and only encourages lazy poor people to continue in thier ways, rather than trying to get themselves ahead

Republicans "We are here to help you, but you have to do most of the work yourself"

It's a waste of tax-money if we keep doing what the democrats like to do.

Unfortunately, a lack of planning in the early stages of the USs development and a lack of people in power trying to fix things has really got this countries policies screwed up... It'll take a long time to even begin trying to fix anything, if we can even get people in power to begin the process..

[Cat]

If that isn't an ignorant statement, I don't know what is. I can generalize all I want about Canadians, just as much as you can about Bush and Texans. Thats where he is from, thats where he got his personality. I haven't seen any pictures of Bush sitting outside of his backwoods trailer taking pop shots at trespassers with his shotgun.. Oh that's right, his family is wealthy and he lives in the White House... :rolleyes:

You can take the hillbilly out of texas, but you can't take texas out of the hillbilly. That's just my narrowminded ignorant opinion, but it's mine. Wealth has nothing to do with the fact that i find him unworthy of presidency. I have friends that would make better presidents.

And i just like Canada, ok?


so don't get into a tissy fit about Fox News being a little to the right. :rolleyes:
And I'm not sure what this "Kerrys French" thing is about. I've never seen it.

A little to the right?
I didn't get the Kerry's frensh thing either, but that's what i've heard the fox anchors say over and over again.. apearantly they found it important for the election that Kerry seems to speak some French. That was total irrelevant yet they made a big deal out of it.. and the fact that he likes to go on holiday. :^^;:

Maybe you should open your eyes and your mind a little bit rather than showing hatred for our President. Why do you have so much concern for what OUR leader is doing? Seriously, the world isn't going to end because of Bush.

I'm not saying the world will end, but i do have relatives that i care about in the USA. So i can be a little concerned wouldn't you agree.


As far as the USA not going forward, do you really think Kerry would have made us progress any further? Look into the policies and his potential vision for his Presidency... I didn't see anything that would make us progress, which is why I didn't vote for him.
Again that's just a matter of opinion, everyone has different morals and values, Kerry's values are much more similar to mine.

[the_blur]

It's only fair that Fox News has somewhat of a bias.. Look at CNN and other networks, the majority of networks are liberal biased, so don't get into a tissy fit about Fox News being a little to the right. :rolleyes:
And I'm not sure what this "Kerrys French" thing is about. I've never seen it.

http://www.outfoxed.org

There's your "slighty nuanced" television "news" network

[the_blur]

Republicans "We are here to help you, but you have to do most of the work yourself"

It's a waste of tax-money if we keep doing what the democrats like to do.

Read "Nickel and Dimed"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805063897/104-8505111-4042339?v=glance

And you'll realize what a ignorant statement that was.

[Cat]

Almost forgot about the flip flops! http://users.pandora.be/catchup/pics/smileys/huhu.gif

[DragonGX]

You can take the hillbilly out of texas, but you can't take texas out of the hillbilly. That's just my narrowminded ignorant opinion, but it's mine. Wealth has nothing to do with the fact that i find him unworthy of presidency. I have friends that would make better presidents.

And i just like Canada, ok?

Well, I don't think it is right to judge people on their personality/demeanor/accent.. I think it is funny that Bush is probably much more educated than most of the people who mock him for being "stupid". You don't get to the Presidency by being stupid. Yeah he isn't the best public speaker, but I would rather have a strong president who takes action when he needs to, rather than an eloquent president who doesn't know where he stands on his own issues.

A little to the right?
I didn't get the Kerry's frensh thing either, but that's what i've heard the fox anchors say over and over again.. apearantly they found it important for the election that Kerry seems to speak some French. That was total irrelevant yet they made a big deal out of it.. and the fact that he likes to go on holiday. :^^;:

Well, I watch Fox News (along with CNN, MSNBC, etc) and I haven't seen anythign about that.. I must have missed it. I don't know why they would make a big deal about it.. Maybe it was a joke comparing him to the French. Everyone likes to go on holiday. :)

I'm not saying the world will end, but i do have relatives that i care about in the USA. So i can be a little concerned wouldn't you agree.

I don't agree. I think this country is more safe with Bush than it would have been with Kerry. You can't blame Bush for 9/11.. It would have happened regardless if Bush or Gore were president. I would really like to know where we would be now if Gore had been Commander In Chief at the time... I don't think anything will happen again with the magnitude of 9/11.. At least for a long time.. I'm not worried about anything happening here in the US.. It just makes me glad I don't live over there closer to the chaos. That Spanish train bombing was shocking, and it really mad me realize how vulnerable europe is to terror attacks.

Again that's just a matter of opinion, everyone has different morals and values, Kerry's values are much more similar to mine.

It is a matter of opinion, and I'm not expressing these as facts.. Just my personal observations and opinions on things. If the democrats could produce a great candidate who's views are closer to mine, I wouldn't hesitate to vote for that person..

[DragonGX]

http://www.outfoxed.org

There's your "slighty nuanced" television "news" network


Let me guess, you take Michael Moore seriously?

[DragonGX]

Read "Nickel and Dimed"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805063897/104-8505111-4042339?v=glance

And you'll realize what a ignorant statement that was.


I haven't read the book, but going by the synopsis, it doesn't say anything about the conservative view of welfare.

It sounds like the "Supersize Me" of welfare.

Maybe you can enlighten me to why your specific quote of my words is related to this book.

[jetpack42]

I'm not saying Europe is perfect, but atleast we're going forward.

If i lived in the us.. i'd move my ass to Canada.


The first sentance is subjective.

The second sentance is an exaggeration. People say this every election, its tired now.

[Phuzion]

Jfrancis: Thanks for posting the Palast stuff... if you didn't, I was going to ;p Yeah... another stolen one... those phukers.

[JerelynFoxeye]

Thank goodness...that is, I finally found an online community where I'm not being stared in the face by hordes of bush-lovers. Everything I feel...disappointed, horrified, brokenhearted, alienated, disgusted, etc...has already been said here. So I guess I just wanted to say I'm grateful that there is a place where I don't feel like an outsider in my grief over this.

And I'm ready to be part of the United States of CAnada. Or Baja of Canada. Or whatever. I do have a Finnish husband, but I wanted to get him dual citizenship before we spent time in his homeland.

[DragonGX]

Thank goodness...that is, I finally found an online community where I'm not being stared in the face by hordes of bush-lovers. Everything I feel...disappointed, horrified, brokenhearted, alienated, disgusted, etc...has already been said here. So I guess I just wanted to say I'm grateful that there is a place where I don't feel like an outsider in my grief over this.

And I'm ready to be part of the United States of CAnada. Or Baja of Canada. Or whatever. I do have a Finnish husband, but I wanted to get him dual citizenship before we spent time in his homeland.


May I ask why you feel disappointed, horrified, brokenhearted, alienated, disgusted, etc...?

[JerelynFoxeye]

So you can tell me why I shouldn't feel that way? No thank you. I'm not interested in a debate while I'm still grieving. As I said already, my feelings have already been eloquently stated by others in this thread.

[DragonGX]

So you can tell me why I shouldn't feel that way? No thank you. I'm not interested in a debate while I'm still grieving. As I said already, my feelings have already been eloquently stated by others in this thread.


Whatever.

[|NTeRN]

after all this talk i've still got one question:
WHY DID SO MANY PEOPLE VOTE FOR BUSH!? he proved well enough that he is a complete idiot who does nothing but bullshit.
i dont get it.. people who voted for him must be completely ignorant or naive..
:rolleyes: :upset: :[ :( :nohope: :nohope: >:| >:{


because mainly didnt feel Kerry was the right answere. if there was another democrat running who i felt i could trust then i would have voted for them. i didnt feel i could always trust what Kerry said. i dont liike bush all the much either but in my opinion hes better then someone who appears to just say things to be liked. he did sound like he wanted change. wether he could have done what he wanted i dont think so. hopefully in 4 yrs we get 2 new canidates that are good for a change.

[April]

WHY DID SO MANY PEOPLE VOTE FOR BUSH!? he proved well enough that he is a complete idiot who does nothing but bullshit.

Maybe because they could relate better to him?

:rolleyes:

[the_blur]

Let me guess, you take Michael Moore seriously?

Nope.

[Leia]

This is interesting...

http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm

[talmir]

I am Icelandic. I live in Denmark. But the reason why I think I can make a pretty good picture in my head about the state of affairs in USA is because I am swamped in it. I hear (no kiddin') more about American politics than I do about these in my home countries. I dont want to hear this. I dont want to know this. Some would tell me to turn of the television, but the sad fact is that I even get swamped by this in school and on the internet on threads such as this one (no offense, sorry, just trying to get my thoughts out). Then Americans tell us to shut up and mind our own business because we supposedly dont know anything about what is happening there or that it is not any of our concern.

Now then...

Iraq is my concern since people from both countries (although not many) were sent there to help clean up Bush's mess. He walked our of the Kyoto treaty which directly influences me and/or my children after I am gone. There are so many other reasons why I do not agree with bush but that is not really what I am angry/frustrated about.

I think a big thing that is wrong with USA is the media. They blow things out of proportion. Sure, he is the president. But you cant tell me he runs "everything". Why do we not see something like that for congress or such things. The president is only one part of a big system. One human being. And why are there always just two "Super candidates"? Why are there never four or five like in many other countries? I think the politics system there is good on paper but in reality its a circus of who has the most cash. This is not always the case in many other countries, in some the "best" candidate actually gets elected. I think from most things I see from america that the average european person is better educated about your politics than the average american. I am tired of these discrimination videos. What has the fact that Kerry changed his mind on some issues have to do with how he would function as a president. People seem to have damned him before he has his chance. He at least can absolutely not be worse than Bush.

But the bottomline is: I dont want to know this. I want to know more about the countries around me than half a world away. America is NOT the ruler of the free world. America is slowly working its way out of the definition of a free world. There is a bigger world out there.

America, The reality tv show.

[talmir]

Quted DragonGX
I don't think anything will happen again with the magnitude of 9/11.. At least for a long time..

No? I see a small group of mad men at 9/11. But I see two mad countries now... I see a bigger risk than ever currently.

Might just be me tho. But I think the group of mad men have achieved theyr goal of reducing freedom in the us along with killing a few thousand. Not to speak of the expenses accompanying the war. The dispute over the elections. The current division of the country you love. And the absolute hatred of many countries towards america along with slight disgust from the rest of the world. If that doesnt make some alarm bells ring in your head then I dont know what will. I am not willing to sacrifice a few countries in a mad vengeance war that has absolutely no point other than making some guy look good to the media.

[Mike Frank]

As long as we all sharing links, this is a good site.

http://www.projectcensored.org

The media can legally lie -

http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/11.html

[thePenguin]

well, i guess i placed too much trust in the majority of the ppl here lately. i cant believe the amount of ignorant stupidity in here lately. let me organize it for you. (these are summaries)

1 - ...blah blah blah...bush did such a bad job and is a moron and were all gonna die because of him...blah blah bitch whine...

yes ill agree the man aint the brightest crayon in the box by a good amount. however it is simply ignorant to ignore the fact that he was handed an overinflated economy that was ready for a healthy and unpreventable release. it would have done that if gore had taken office and the republicans would be the ones doing the crying game instead of all of you. anyone who has taken even a basic economics class can tell you that consumer spending accounts for more than 2/3s of the gdp and government spending comprises less that 1/3. so its the us, the consumers, who are mainly at fault for how hard the economy was hit by this recession, not the governments fiscal policy. as far as jobs go, the unemployment rate is lower now than it was when clinton was running for re-election in 96. no valid bitching to be done there then huh? the government never showed up at work and told your boss to fire you, so dont crab that its washingtons fault. educate yourself and read the numbers before you post in here and sound this uninformed.

2 - ...blah blah whine moan...all our rights are being taken away...whine whine bitch...
oh yeah, and exactly which rights that you regularly exercised in the past have you lost in the past 4, 8, 12, 16 or even more years? thats just stupid. give it up unless you can back it up.

3 - ...blah blah...OMG, "they" (whoever they are) stole the election this time!...bitch bitch bitch...
this time im just gonna have to say that you are a whining idiot. in 2000 there was a case to be made about it being stolen. however this time around bush won the popular vote. he won the electoral college. he got a clear majority of the national vote, which is more than can be said about clinton either time. he won by a greater margin overal than reagan did. any way you slice it he won. stop with the idiotic paranoid conspiracy theories. they are ill founded and remind me of a big brownie pinched off by michael moores fat ass. take a queue from kerry and be a big kid about what happened instead of whining and complaining. nothing impressed me more about john kerry than the fact that he didnt bitch and sue to try to draw all this out but rather took his defeat like a human with dignity and honor and asked for an effort from both parties to work together to better us all.

4 - ...boo hoo hoo...those damn christians (or other right leaning religious group) and their opinions (which by the way they have as much right to as you have to yours, ignorant as both MAY be), they are why the democrats lost this election...
no, u wanna know why the democrats lost this election? ive said it before and now its been repeated on this very thread by someone else. the democrats lost because the liberals (yes kids there IS a difference between the 2) picked a candidate for them that was too far left for the majority of the voting public to support. this SHOULD have been the easiest election in a long time for the democrats. but nooooooo, they wound up with a near socialist liberal. if they had gotten dean or edwards (possibly even hillary) up for pres they would have unseated king bush easily. but instead they got the 2nd most liberal of the lot. the only worse pick would have been kennedy, but no one is stupid enough (i hope) to pick him for a serious nominee.

so many of you need to stop getting all this shit from cbs (clearly an unbiased source, ha, "we accidentally forged those documents"), fox news, and john stewart, and other intelligent but terribly politically biased sources and think for yourselves. lately the vast majority of todays youth have done nothing but whine about america because its hip and trendy and for some reason you all think that you sound smarter if you can parrot what the tv said. why not turn off your MT-f***ing-V, pull your head out of pop cultures ass, and take a breath of fresh air called unbiased education and common sense.
and to those of you who are crabbing that you should move to another nation, save your breath. because i know you wont move out, because things are pretty ok here. and even if things really ARE better in canada or europe (what idiot said mexico? its not better there) you would never get off your ass to move there just like most of you probably did nothing in this election outside of whine in a forum, punch a hole in a ballot (touch a screen if you live where old ppl are too stupid to operate a punchcard), or maybe if you were feeling really political one day put a sign in your yard. wow, congrats! youve now accomplished very little to further your cause.

yeah, i know most of you are going to (or at least were planning on before you read this paragraph) bitch back at me about what ive said, simply because i am 1 of a few voices of reason in this largely left side innundated thread. i do also apologize for the obsceneties and poorly refrained anger in this post. normally i dont sound like this, but this much stubbornly uninformed bias in one place is rather inflamatory. i am not claiming to be smarter than anyone here, possibly less lazy and more wiling to take on extra responsibility but no more intelligent than most of you are. its simply that the bias locked in place in your minds is keeping you from going out and informing yourself honestly. its also that bias (on both sides mind you) that has divided this nation so greatly. why not cast off the blinders and work together. no group ever achieved its full potential by fighting against eachother.

[thePenguin]

I think a big thing that is wrong with USA is the media...you cant tell me he runs "everything". Why do we not see something like that for congress or such things. The president is only one part of a big system...I think the politics system there is good on paper but in reality its a circus of who has the most cash...I think from most things I see from america that the average european person is better educated about your politics than the average american...
wow, say would you like to come over and talk over a game of chess sometime?! i would consider it an honor. i dont doubt the average european is better educated about our politics than we are here. and its because the majority of the ppl here this time didnt vote for who they agreed with more, because most of them didnt even know who stood where on what issues. they just voted because they liked or hated bush. seriously, ill see if i can find money to fly you here for a chat and some chess. would you like to run for president on an independant ticket? PLEASE!?

[DragonGX]

Some valid points.

It's disturbing to me that because of MTV and other liberal orangizations, they're making kdis think that being a democrat (or worse, a liberal) is the "in" thing to be.. I'm 21, andmost of these trendy liberal kids I've talked to don't know anythign about what is really going on. They just are following what peopel tell them to believe.. That Bush is a war mongering president who went to Iraq for oil, and taht Kerry will save this nation, and guns are bad, and blah blah blah... :nohope:

I just wish that people would think more for themselves and actually research issues if they are going to talk about politics or vote.

Like I said before, we almost need a pre-voting test on the issues brought up and only those who pass can vote.

[LaPalida]

April - that's funny ehehehe

It's only fair that Fox News has somewhat of a bias.. Look at CNN and other networks, the majority of networks are liberal biased, so don't get into a tissy fit about Fox News being a little to the right.

The thing is ... I don't hear any scandals over any supposedly overly "libertarian" news network while there is always some kind of an agenda going on with "right wing" networks. It's funny that way, people are always coming forward and confessing about the fact that they had to "bend" the truth in what's considered a right wing network while they worked there, and yet where are the outraged employees of CNN or whatever supposedly "left wing" network out there? I haven't heard of any. I don't hear any "left wing" network anchors say continuously shut-up to their guests or threaten to break them in half after they go off the air. Maybe for you people who are sceptical ... you should watch the movie for yourself and then judge who you think is lying to you in your face while saying "fair and balanced" reporting. How about you first listen to what the people that worked there have to say before you say anything ignorant. Just a thought.

[Lono]

well, i guess i placed too much trust in the majority of the ppl here lately. i cant believe the amount of ignorant stupidity in here lately. let me organize it for you. (these are summaries)

1 - ...blah blah blah...bush did such a bad job and is a moron and were all gonna die because of him...blah blah bitch whine...

yes ill agree the man aint the brightest crayon in the box by a good amount. however it is simply ignorant to ignore the fact that he was handed an overinflated economy that was ready for a healthy and unpreventable release. it would have done that if gore had taken office and the republicans would be the ones doing the crying game instead of all of you. anyone who has taken even a basic economics class can tell you that consumer spending accounts for more than 2/3s of the gdp and government spending comprises less that 1/3. so its the us, the consumers, who are mainly at fault for how hard the economy was hit by this recession, not the governments fiscal policy. as far as jobs go, the unemployment rate is lower now than it was when clinton was running for re-election in 96. no valid bitching to be done there then huh? the government never showed up at work and told your boss to fire you, so dont crab that its washingtons fault. educate yourself and read the numbers before you post in here and sound this uninformed.

2 - ...blah blah whine moan...all our rights are being taken away...whine whine bitch...
oh yeah, and exactly which rights that you regularly exercised in the past have you lost in the past 4, 8, 12, 16 or even more years? thats just stupid. give it up unless you can back it up.

3 - ...blah blah...OMG, "they" (whoever they are) stole the election this time!...bitch bitch bitch...
this time im just gonna have to say that you are a whining idiot. in 2000 there was a case to be made about it being stolen. however this time around bush won the popular vote. he won the electoral college. he got a clear majority of the national vote, which is more than can be said about clinton either time. he won by a greater margin overal than reagan did. any way you slice it he won. stop with the idiotic paranoid conspiracy theories. they are ill founded and remind me of a big brownie pinched off by michael moores fat ass. take a queue from kerry and be a big kid about what happened instead of whining and complaining. nothing impressed me more about john kerry than the fact that he didnt bitch and sue to try to draw all this out but rather took his defeat like a human with dignity and honor and asked for an effort from both parties to work together to better us all.

4 - ...boo hoo hoo...those damn christians (or other right leaning religious group) and their opinions (which by the way they have as much right to as you have to yours, ignorant as both MAY be), they are why the democrats lost this election...
no, u wanna know why the democrats lost this election? ive said it before and now its been repeated on this very thread by someone else. the democrats lost because the liberals (yes kids there IS a difference between the 2) picked a candidate for them that was too far left for the majority of the voting public to support. this SHOULD have been the easiest election in a long time for the democrats. but nooooooo, they wound up with a near socialist liberal. if they had gotten dean or edwards (possibly even hillary) up for pres they would have unseated king bush easily. but instead they got the 2nd most liberal of the lot. the only worse pick would have been kennedy, but no one is stupid enough (i hope) to pick him for a serious nominee.

so many of you need to stop getting all this shit from cbs (clearly an unbiased source, ha, "we accidentally forged those documents"), fox news, and john stewart, and other intelligent but terribly politically biased sources and think for yourselves. lately the vast majority of todays youth have done nothing but whine about america because its hip and trendy and for some reason you all think that you sound smarter if you can parrot what the tv said. why not turn off your MT-f***ing-V, pull your head out of pop cultures ass, and take a breath of fresh air called unbiased education and common sense.
and to those of you who are crabbing that you should move to another nation, save your breath. because i know you wont move out, because things are pretty ok here. and even if things really ARE better in canada or europe (what idiot said mexico? its not better there) you would never get off your ass to move there just like most of you probably did nothing in this election outside of whine in a forum, punch a hole in a ballot (touch a screen if you live where old ppl are too stupid to operate a punchcard), or maybe if you were feeling really political one day put a sign in your yard. wow, congrats! youve now accomplished very little to further your cause.

yeah, i know most of you are going to (or at least were planning on before you read this paragraph) bitch back at me about what ive said, simply because i am 1 of a few voices of reason in this largely left side innundated thread. i do also apologize for the obsceneties and poorly refrained anger in this post. normally i dont sound like this, but this much stubbornly uninformed bias in one place is rather inflamatory. i am not claiming to be smarter than anyone here, possibly less lazy and more wiling to take on extra responsibility but no more intelligent than most of you are. its simply that the bias locked in place in your minds is keeping you from going out and informing yourself honestly. its also that bias (on both sides mind you) that has divided this nation so greatly. why not cast off the blinders and work together. no group ever achieved its full potential by fighting against eachother.


jeeeeeesus! you sound like a fucking huge throbing dick! go fucking jack off in the mirror you fucking web forum masterbator.. these political threads are fucking stupid.. just a bunch of assholes stroking there fat egos all over the internet.. hang it up people.. this is rediculous...
penguin,, i love how at the end of your blanketed attack on "the left" you added your bullshit,, "cant we all just get along" speech as an attempt to cover up the horrably shitty smell that you just released from your shitty mouth hole.. that "boo hoo hoo" shit is really obnoxious and condescending.. you should be happy that your countrymen are exercising there right to question there government... do this for me penguin... try to imagine a schnario where our government is genuinely corrupt and manipulating the nation.. possable right? its happened here before.
obviously they are not just going to come out and admit it.. when the village cryer comes out in the street and screams foul play,, what would it take for him to convince you? my guess is that he couldnt convince you,,, period.. especially if the adsministration has got a special knack for manipulation and working the masses.. the cryer would always be brushed off as crazy.
working the masses this way is a fine art that can be mastered like any other.
would you agree? what would you do if you felt that the person running your country was a master of this art? would you go cry on the mountian? take with you all the facts you want.. your still just the village cryer,, and the masses think your a whiner... boo hoo hoo..

its easy for you to say shit like "get educated before you try to have an opinion"... seriously dude,,, there is just as much slanted information coming from the right as there is from the left.. where are you getting your "facts" the internet?? fox news? micheal moore? its all the same.
thats where we live.. were swimming in a sea of shit.. dont just pick a turd and ride it. i prefer the rasors edge..

this is pointless.. i might as well type this up in word and drop it in my recycle bin..


-Lono

[seb]

Democrats: "Heres some money to help you out.." which is never ending and only encourages lazy poor people to continue in thier ways, rather than trying to get themselves ahead

Republicans "We are here to help you, but you have to do most of the work yourself"

actually what the democrats are doing is pure and simple economics. if we had 100% employment there would be massive out of control inflation. by economic standards, full employment is around 4% unemployment. this is similar to the government paying farmers to let land lie fallow.

although i do agree that social security does need some sort of revap. although i disagree that it should be privatized. the money from social security is guarenteed and with the bursting of the stock bubble, a lot of peoples 401k and ira lost much of their value. however it is not an issue that i have read very much on.

[DragonGX]

actually what the democrats are doing is pure and simple economics. if we had 100% employment there would be massive out of control inflation. by economic standards, full employment is around 4% unemployment. this is similar to the government paying farmers to let land lie fallow.

although i do agree that social security does need some sort of revap. although i disagree that it should be privatized. the money from social security is guarenteed and with the bursting of the stock bubble, a lot of peoples 401k and ira lost much of their value. however it is not an issue that i have read very much on.


I'm not saying it should be privatized... I still think it should be deducted the same as it is now, I jsut think that each persons deductions should go to their own account. Give them a few options to invest (say a volatile fund for those willing to take a risk and possibly see greater yield, and a conservative index fund that will just see steady growth... None of the options should be so volatile that they can possibly lose the majority of thier retirement.. Just a few different options for different kinds of people...

I just shudder at the thought of people retiring in 30 years who haven't planned it (hopefully, ill be more than secure, with my 401K and my personal Roth IRA) I'm just trying to look out for the people who could care less about planning for that stage in thier life, or that can't afford to...

[Travis_Bourbeau]

calling or saying people are stupid or ignorant and then trying to get them to see your view is a hard thing to do. I should say that in my talk at the restaurant it was the fact that those people were ignorant of some of the issues that are there, like the economy etc. That is what bothered me the most arguing that unemployment is at its lowest sense Clinton doesn’t really mean much when the majority of jobs pay over 9000 less than they did 4 years ago and that is a fact, I am in a higher tax bracket, but most families I know only got 600 dollars back on there tax cut which was supposed to create jobs well it does jobs for people in Singapore making shirts for Wal-Mart that cost 6 dollars most people aren’t going to be able to put down a deposit on a house or a car with 600 dollars ? The demand for public food assistance is at its highest it has been sense the depression of course I don’t think government is to blame 100% or can fix it 100% my point was simply to say that when people say they think the economy is doing well I think they tend to ignore what is going on around them what the government can do is help keep factories and jobs on a fair playing level and not give companies tax credits and rewards for sending work elsewhere Nothing against companies making a profit or making the world economy better but at the same time if a company starts in Florida and is given government loans or grants and tax cuts for years that are greater than the total amount they are paying out in salaries to the workers and then move 80% of there work over seas should we still give them the same grants and tax cuts ?/


allot of these things aren’t just presidential issues but issues people should look at there are plenty of issues im not informed on as well but that is why I asked them why they voted for bush maybe there was something I was missing I do believe weather you have taken a basic economics class or not its pretty obvious that bush isn’t pushing for job markets that would bring in higher incomes tech wise or in the field of science we could set a mandate for hybrid cars national broadband etc These things cant be done by the president alone but he can lead all these would create many new jobs and jobs that would pay there are tons of issues on both sides my view is that it would be more helpful if we were all better informed on the issues and not the politics behind them so to speak


In my opinion there have been very few presidential candidates of the people for the people but rather a better of two evils sometimes its just who you think will do less damage and has opportunity for change no matter how you look at it bush isn’t making anymore friends in the global market it doesn’t take a class in economics to figure out if you shut the doors to the country you are not letting any money in so to speak


Fun hearing other peoples perspectives more threads like this before a election could do allot of people good I would recommend trying to be respectful of people and not call them stupid but to each

[jetpack42]

Part of the problem was that there was virtually NO domestic issues given importance. bump that!

[Dougbot]

The biggest problem with politics in America is the partisan voters. I know people who voted both Republican and Democrat right down the line. They step into the voting box and it's D,D,D,D,D or R,R,R,R,R and that's it.

I vote both ways. Usually more Democrat than Republican, but I did vote for several Republicans. That's how a democracy should work. Vote for the right person for the job, not the political party.

I also won't vote for fear, which was in major play in this election. Fear of terror, and fear of changing values. Dick Cheney saying if your vote for the "wrong side", then "we will be attacked", is plain and simple fear mongering. I'm also not afraid of homosexuality, even though I don't care for 'Will & Grace'.

Frankly I don't care if Jane and Sarah want to get married, or if Dale and Dan do. It doesn't affect me at all. It's supposed to be a free country; that's what the whole civil liberties for ALL people was about. Not constitutional amendments saying a minority can't get married.

As far as the war on terror; guns, bombs and a hundred thousand dead civillians will not change a region that already has disdain for us. Building schools and info structures, a quiet war of giving (which no politician would ever do) could work, and would be our best bet. Our foreign policy in the world is outdated and needs a severe overhaul. That is how you fight a war on terror.

Also you don't overextend your military in a war that cannot easily be won, without help. We need to be in Sudan, were thousands are dying, and there's a true link to Al-Queda. If ever there was a war to fight, it's there. Of course we can't just leave Iraq, so the Sudanese will continue to be murdered while the world watches.

Reich Marshall Hermann Goering (of Nazi Germany) said: “It is always a simple matter to drag the people along to do the bidding of the leaders regardless of the form of government. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

I will not be a victim of fear. To those who immediately write me off as being unpatriotic (as many have done lately), here's a quote:

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."-President Thomas Jefferson

'Nuff said.

[bRyaN]

well said...

i wanted to say that, but i couldn't be so eloquent about it...

[Jan]

The Nazis also had the philosophy that it has not to be smart,it must just be repeated again and again,till even the most stupid got it.
In the first Iraq-war they(U.S.-gov.) told,the I. soldier are throwing around with babies(killing them).

[thePenguin]

...just a bunch of assholes stroking there fat egos all over the internet..and yet you pop up often enough. hm, good job.

that "boo hoo hoo" shit is really obnoxious...youre right, thats why you and others should stop doing it

...try to imagine a schnario where our government is genuinely corrupt and manipulating the nation.. possable right?...looking through the dictionary for "schnario" and "possable" still. yeah, i can see it. actually i do remember one or 2 from world history. oh yeah, those were socialist states. they obviously work well huh?

when the village cryer comes out in the street and screams foul play,, what would it take for him to convince you? gee, i dunno, maybe it would take facts? what else should there really be to convince YOU? clean diapers and a bright red firetruck?

working the masses this way is a fine art that can be mastered like any other. would you agree?yep, sure would. and every administration that i have seen has tried their hand at it. most have been successful.

what would you do if you felt that the person running your country was a master of this art?u know, i dont see why i have to repeat myself for you. but if i must then you should probably get out a notebook and a pencil. like i said before i would DO something about it. u know, reading the numbers and statistics from MORE THAN ONE source, (heres one u might not be used to) thinking for myself about it, then choosing a candidate(s) i agree with and helping their campaign.

there is just as much slanted information coming from the right as there is from the left..really? could that be why i said to use more than one source (hopefully NOT MTV news)

fox news? micheal moore? its all the same.wow, thats possibly the most ignorant thing i have heard since your last post. fox news and micheal moore now proclaim the same political views? wow, only when hell freezes over would they share common views.

i might as well type this up in word and drop it in my recycle binthen by all means do so. at least that way your computer could make you spell correctly.

[thePenguin]

ew, sorry that was so long. there was just too much stupidity there not to have some fun with it.

[bRyaN]

you typed all that without actually saying anything...

[USER777]

ew, sorry that was so long. there was just too much stupidity there not to have some fun with it.

u excell at making things unnecessary complicated without telling anything..
just because you dont agree with lono you shouldnt start a flame like this..
what do you actually want to tell us?
to think for ourselves?
i think lono did and because of your abusive way of using language in this forum you drew some angry attention onto yourself.
you can clearly form gramatically valid sentences but your output is not as high as you pretend it to be.
when i read your first post i thought.. well, much hot air but i think he actually wanted to tell us something with that. your recent "quotation-massacre" showed your true behaviour wich is impetulent and childish.
:stfu:

[Helium Macaroni]

ew, sorry that was so long. there was just too much stupidity there not to have some fun with it.


That wasn't fun, that was inane.

[Phuzion]

ThePenguin: Before I say anything... who the hell did YOU vote for, and why? If we're all so damn ignorant, I would looooove it if you enlightened me. Please.

-Daniel

[thePenguin]

bryan and helium, thanks for the input.

lim, u dont have to cry for lono or scold me because i responded to his angered obsceneties without using any of my own. im sure he is a big kid and can respond for himself. im sorry that was too complicated for you though, so let me suggest some reading for you then: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=gu5L5QMAs3&isbn=0399240462&itm=1

phuzion, who and why? bush, mostly because i dont agree with kerry on abortion and capital punishment. call me crazy, but id rather give a repeat killer an injection than ask my fiance to slaughter any of our future children. There are reasonable times and circumstances for both, but i dont agree with kerry's position on those 2 issues. now that ur curiosity should be satisfied, indulge mine if you wouldnt mind as per your vote and why.

[Form]

lol you ignorant twat, that waslike my favourite book as a kid lol...

this thread is the bomb.

heres a quote to mull over

"The world grows faster than men"

[Prometheus|ANJ]

Sorta related, Here's an interesting 'IQ of famous people' page (including American presidents).

IE popup warning due to ad: link (http://www.aceviper.net/aceviper_net/ace_intelligence/aceviper_famous_people_iq_list/aceviper_famous_people_iq_list.html): IE popup warning... maybe. Someone complained, but I didn't get any (firefox).

Most notable are Andy Warhol at a mere 86 and Dolph Lundgren (swedish muscle actor) with surprising 160 O_o

Judging from other pages, most politicians are around 120 (sorta mainstream smart) it seems, very few of them are in the 150+ range (original thinker).

---

As for my GWB opinion:
It might be a Post Hoc fallacy to blame Bush, but the dollar has gone from 11 Swedish 'crowns' down to almost 7. Since I freelance as an illustrator (with mainly American clients) that means I've lost about 30% of my income due to the dollar drop.

[jetpack42]

Andy Warhol-86. lol

[Phuzion]

ThePenguin: I voted for Kerry because I'm trendy and uneducated, so I don't like the thought of waging war for made-up causes and causing the deaths of 100,000 innocent civilians without even blinking an eye.

You talk about getting our heads out of our asses, turning off our TVs etc. I don't even own a TV. I'm gonna go ahead and say your numbers are wrong, why? Because I can. What's to say your sources are more correct than everyone else's? I listen to Air America Radio (http://www.airamericaradio.com) alot. Yes, it's very liberal, but the difference is, they will give you all the proof you want to back everything up, even right wing facts and numbers, which is more than I can say for your party. They sit there and spout lies, that we already know are false, but they still spit. Bush, during the RNC, said that we're in Iraq because they have, HAVE, WMDs. Everyone, even Collin Powell! already confirmed that there aren't any, and never were! But that's cool if you'd rather go for a flat out liar. The numbers I've been hearing and seeing say that the job rate is lower than it was when Bush first started squatting in the White House. I think you're pretty fuckin' closed minded if you think you're one of a few voices of reason. Everyone I know that has a good education and can think for themselves knows Bush is a fuckin' jackass. And no, he did not win the popular vote because there are 250,000 provisional ballotts sitting in dumpsters in Ohio, as well as more in other states... strange that those were all in Minority Disctricts (majority Democratic), isn't it? Look at the exit polls. Those are more accurate than the machine tallies. I think anyone with even a small ability to see the bigger picture would go for the person that ISN'T talking about ruining the friggin' environment. That's my main concern. You can stop all the terrorists you want, kill as many innocent people overseas as you want, but if you fuck up the world we live in, we're kinda screwed no matter what.

Bush talks about putting money into the Community College system. Money he fucking took out! forcing thousands of CCs to cut classes back, cut facilities etc.

I won't even touch on abortion because you're clearly too ignorant to pass any kind of worthwhile judgment on it... did that sound like an insult? Whoops.

You write about Liberals as though they're all uneducated, or as though it's a bad word. So we're not into killing everyone but us... we're not into drilling in every available spot for oil while killing off 1000s of species of fish and leaking oil into the oceans, lakes and rivers; we're not into dumping chemical wastes into our water as a way to "get rid of it". Out of site, out of mind with you guys, ay? So yeah, we're all idiots because we have a human sense of morality... sheeeeeeit, I knew there was something wrong. Damn you school for making me intelligent!! Don't talk to us about reason, man... you have none. So why you don't you go outside and play hide and go fuck yourself...

Oh, was that rude? Man! Now I feel really bad... bad llama!

[DragonGX]

Phuzion - You do know that Kerry thought there were WMDs in Iraq before we went to war, right? And that Bush had intel stating that there were WMDs there. And Saddam wouldn't let inspectors in?

I love how everyone monday morning quarterbacks Bush. "BUt there weren't any WMDs in Iraq!" Well look at what Bush had in front of him.


Bush inherited a recession from Clinton. Add 9/11 into that and you've got a bad situation as far as jobs go. He may not have done the best job, but he did what he could in difficult times. If it's so easy why don't you get into politics?


Don't even start with the bullshit about the election. Bush won by what 5-6 million votes in the popular vote? Plus he won more than enough states for the electoral college.

Be a fucking man like Kerry and admit defeat. :rolleyes:

If you don't like it, take a cue from this guy:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137837,00.html

[Phuzion]

I don't care who thought there were weapons in Iraq, because you can boil it down to the fact that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. You can boil it down to Bush having intel about 9/11 before it happened and he didn't do shit. He won by 5 million votes according to your precious republican owned TV stations, so don't feed me any of that. Take the time to research the real numbers and you'll find that they were much much closer, and that Kerry DID have a chance if all those provisional ballotts had been counted instead of thrown away. Be a man and accept defeat? By your little cowboy? Accept defeat and say, "fuck it! I don't care about the environment! I don't care about decreasing the amount of toxins in the water, soil, and air!" Yeah fuck off. I hold my trees and clean water more important than your president's fuckin' paycheck. Call me a hippy, or new age, or whatever... You told me a lot just by plugging a link from Fox News. Fuck them and their right wing bullshit. Yeah, I guess we're just two extremes, and I know there's no winning, but frankly, I'd rather be the extreme that stands for morality, equality and environmental safety... you can go support waging wars without a plan for exit, supporting corporations in poisoning the earth, and widening the gap between those in need of help and those with the means to help but don't give a fuck. At least I'll have a clear conscience.

I'm not a huge Kerry fan either, but he's a lot better than Bush, because at least he can admit when he's wrong and makes an effort to change it.

And what about the tons of artwork I've posted up here makes you think I'm even remotely interested in being a politician? My dad could kick your dad's ass. Did I say I could do better? Did I say it was easy? I will say that the one thing I like about Bush is that he sure makes it SEEM like I could do it. Soooooo... yeah fuck off.

[Helium Macaroni]

Holy shit Dragon.. you just told one of my friends to kill himself..

Fuck you asshole.. that crap has no place here.

[bRyaN]

And where the fuck is Ogden, Utah...

What terrorists would give a shit about Ogden, Utah...The people who should be worried about terrorism and safety are the people who are prone to be attacked....

[jetpack42]

the problem is, solutions to problems aren't republican or democrat. neithier party has all the answers (neither party really has ANY answers), and most of the people on here have stated that they voted for one canidate over the other because they didn't like the other canidate. What kind of system is that? I think most people would say there are alot of things about GW that they dont like, and also alot of people have things about Kerry they don't like...so lets just chill out and post some art now that things are long over.

we got a loser either way.

[Helium Macaroni]

Things are not long over.. things are brewing in this country and will continue to. There's a culture war on.

[jetpack42]

no doubt, theres a serious gap between the way different groups of people are thinking, and we need to find some middle ground. I doubt that will happen in the 2 party system though...

I was inferring that the election of 2004 is over...so lets chill out about bush and kerry and post some art, eh?

and i'd love to get together with you guys, draw and talk politics sometime.

[thePenguin]

well well phuzzy, youve certainly outdone yourself now. it would seem youre just spouting your usual anti-right bit at me without actually reading what ive written. since it takes you a little longer to catch on ill repeat myself for you: i vote for who i agree with most, regardless of party. thats about the 3rd time ive said that so please catch on soon. wow, confining yourself to one source is a bad idea. anyone can tell you that. when you were (or are) in school did you ever turn in a paper with 1 source? if so, how long was it before your professor stopped laughing? its very naive to honestly believe that only one side of the political spectrum "spout[s] lies" as you put it. repetition aides learning..."the unemployment rate is lower now than it was when clinton was running for re-election in 96"...good try, but youre talking about a completely different election than i was. hey, guess what else is naive? thinking those provisional ballots would all go to kerry (a good chunk were supposed to be military votes) and overturn the 3.5 million plus votes that kerry DID lose the popular election by (helpful hint: 250,000 < 3,500,000). oh, the environment huh? well im not a tree hugger, nor am i an irrisponsible, wasteful industrialist. but what i can tell you is that when mount st. helens popped its top it threw more ozone depleting chemicals into the air than humans have so far. so yeah, i am concerned about the environment, but im not going to obsess over it because nature depletes and repleneshes itself on a larger scale than we do. CCs? well, the ones near me have been yammering on about all their new classes. just last year, the closest one added a completely new hi-tech wing because its growing so fast. yeah, i know YOU wont touch abortion because it sounds like you cant. do so if you want though. and no i never said anything about liberals all being uneducated or all bad. go read what i said, because ive repeated myself for you enough. if you would like to make an intelligent argument devoid of meritless profanity, i would encourage you to do so. but if you cant even accurately cite something of mine in print on the same screen you are typing on then dont bother.
it is amusing though that you cant seem to keep your cool when presented with intelligent discussion.

[|NTeRN]

ya i dont like these discussions too much as well. theres too much im right no im right no IM right NO IM RIGHT going on. just get overwhelming and pointless. the thing that does bug me the most is when people call Bush or Kerry an idiot because they have a differnt opion then them. both are smart guys (granted bush speaks extremely poorly when giving speeches or debating) i feel that its completely ok to say someone is wrong. but calling him an idiot is just childish.

and ya i strongly agree with jetpack about us needing a middle ground. i dunno if we can get to that with the way things are going, but i do know theres gonna have to be big sacrifices on both sides.

anyways less talky more arty :wink:

[Helium Macaroni]

Gee, we can only hope to be more like you Penguin.. you set the paradigm.

You grossly underestimate the spectrum of sources many of us gather our information from.. I would urge you to take a less absolutist approach in assuming where we gain our perspectives.

I don't watch MTV.

[thePenguin]

well, phuzzy did say he listens to 1, count it, 1 source. thats not very hopeful.

[thePenguin]

helium, thats an interesting signature, but have you thought at all about all the money we send up into space so that some nerds at nasa can get cool pictures and look for water on mars? it seems rather needless to and i would think could certainly better go to helping those u mentioned there.

[thePenguin]

My dad could kick your dad's ass.

...LOL...
and as per the article linked to on his post it really has nothing to do with his political stance. its about a moron who shot himself after the election results were in. only an idiot would leave his fiance heartbroken and alone like that over an election.

[Helium Macaroni]

Regardless, I know him personally, and he has his head on straight. I have direct knowledge that you are assuming wrongly of him. We often discuss politics, and we involve ourselves in discussing policy, not the reporting of policy, or second hand punditry.

[Mike Frank]

Here is what is so sketchy about Iraq - first there were some rumbles.. there could be a war with Iraq.. on what premise?? - none was supplied at that time.. just we are thinking about doing it. Slowly it starts to seep out, the Bush Doctrine comes out, reports come out they thinking about setting up martial law to control the populace in the event the war takes place (because of how bad Afghanistan got messed up), the government starts making allusions that Iraq has connections with Al-Queda. President Bush first asserted his authority, stating he did not even need the Congress' approval in order to start this war. It seemed more like they wanted to go to war and then tried to find evidence to back it up afterwards. Once that was in place, he did eventually go to Congress' and of course it was approved. Hardly any dissention took place at the time (none I can think of) - with the hardline attitude of our President in the post 9/11 era you're either for us or against us and anyone who does not go along with this would be committing political suicide. Look at the media at the time also, there was hardly any questioning of the governments facts in any capacity at all. Just a bunch of reports of "here's what so and so from the cabinet said" and bam it was fact. I think that also is a result of the for or against us attitude, but I'm digressing. Then even more reluctantly Bush goes to the United Nations for approval also, not only because of UN sanctions on Iraq but also I think because he is attempting to start a pre-emptive conflict. This is a huge deal.. we are setting a very large precedence in the idea that we can justly fight wars against nations that have yet to actually threaten us with physical violence. The world agreed some time ago that wars should not be fought this way.. So anyways the UN doesnt approve and they may had if our reasons had looked more legitimate but you know.. it just didnt cut it (and arguably still doesnt.) And we go to war anyways and decide that we're going to oust this madman (killing tons of innocents in the process) and set up his people with our systems of living, meanwhile handpicking the first leaders of their new democracy. I dunno the whole thing to me, is just wrong - you can argue and say "but Saddam was a tyrant" and we are "liberating his people" - well did you think that along with liberating them we would kill a bunch of people who don't deserve it in the process? and do you think that Saddam is the only madman in the world, are we going to oust all of them from power, pre-emptively? And the thing is that we have been doing this kind of shit below the radar ever since the cold war and maybe before then, often throwing our favors to more dictator types than democratic types. The world is getting sick of it.

[thePenguin]

I have direct knowledge that you are assuming wrongly of him.
if thats true then i stand, er, sit corrected and retract that statement concerning him then.

[Helium Macaroni]

It would be great also if you didn't double, or triple post like this.. if you need to say something further, go and edit your last message.

And I quite like my sig, it was said by one of the greatest presidents in history, Eisenhower, a Republican. And what NASA or any other R&D effort paid by the government pales in comparison to what is paid to the military, at a whopping near $400 billion/year. I see no need in pursuing the f-22 program in order to fight the war on terrorism. Much of those programs are direct results of the Military-Industrial complex Eisenhower was referring to.

[thePenguin]

just out of curiosity, how many of you complained when we took action in bosnia?

helium, im not saying your sig is wrong, im adding to it.

congrats phuzzy, you handle yourself with the grace, dignity, and maturity of a prepubescent boy.

[Phuzion]

Do you really think I need to note all my sources? Greg Palast, Tom Paine, the lies that come from Bush's mouth, any number of the syndicated shows ON AAR.

DragonGX: Here's a link for you... Click Me. (http://www.artdl.com/Posts/Fuckoff.jpg) Think about it the next time you feel the need to post links like that again. There, now don't you feel special?

[Helium Macaroni]

About Bosnia,

I objected, I thought it unnecessary for us to involve ourselves in a conflict that had lasted for centuries. However, unlike Iraq II, it was done with an international force, for humanitarian reasons, or so they say. I am suspicious of any war action taken, and am sure there were other motivations. Unlike some liberals, I would be happy to see international pressure be brought to bear upon those nations who do not conform to the Geneva Conventions or the international agreement on human rights. However, much of U.S. policy does not fall in line with international law, so that would anger many in America.

[talmir]

and more on the same note...

I personally think its more valuable to send probes into space to check out as you say water on other planets and get pretty pictures for geeks at nasa rather than sending another bomb at mohammed al mohammad or somesuch person. Zero gain through that most of the time I think. Except maybe for your country, but in the long run I think its more valuable for us as a race to know whats "out there" as our little ole planet sized dirt rock floating in space is rapidly emptying out of usefull material for us.. Cant be more than five or six generations worth before it runs empty. But by that time everyone will have forgotten that missile that was launched.. But some people there will be really happy theyr house/hospital/medication factory/school/social center/shelter/family wasnt blown up all those years ago.

A big problem with the world is that they tend to think with theyr guns and in the terms of action (an unfortunate byproduct of main stream action movies which translate into the social consciousness. Everyone learns to act before they think just like theyr favourite action heroes). I have heard comments that the United Nations are slow and spoiled. They may well be that but they have done oh so much more towards peace through diplomatic ways rather than running headlong into war.

I have just a small question : Why do americans react faster with insults towards others when told that they are wrong than any other country? (Honest question, I have run into this so many times I lost count a few years ago). Do they really not spend five seconds thinking about what you just said and whether it might be true or not?

[thePenguin]

i didnt like goin to bosnia, and i didnt like going to iraq. my only argument on it now is that pulling out too fast would completely nullify any good we may have somehow done. lol, speaking of unrest thats about pointless to intervene in, how about israeal and palastine now huh?
sadly talmir, thinking is not most of americas strongpoint or first inclination.

[Helium Macaroni]

I question all military interventions, due to the fact that they are often motivated by corporate interests, strategic interests, or resource interests, my bigger problem with Iraq is that it was more clearly for all those reasons than for anything else, regardless of how much of a humanitarian disaster it was, there were plenty of bigger fish to fry, and actual roots to target.

I don't think we should involve ourselves militarily in Palestine, but we already intervene on Israel's side, financing them, giving them weapons, and allowing their policies to be enacted, due to the fact that we hold the most global leverage. I have my own weird ideas of what I think should be done, but that's complicate.. kinda.

[DragonGX]

I don't care who thought there were weapons in Iraq, because you can boil it down to the fact that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. You can boil it down to Bush having intel about 9/11 before it happened and he didn't do shit. He won by 5 million votes according to your precious republican owned TV stations, so don't feed me any of that. Take the time to research the real numbers and you'll find that they were much much closer, and that Kerry DID have a chance if all those provisional ballotts had been counted instead of thrown away. Be a man and accept defeat? By your little cowboy? Accept defeat and say, "fuck it! I don't care about the environment! I don't care about decreasing the amount of toxins in the water, soil, and air!" Yeah fuck off. I hold my trees and clean water more important than your president's fuckin' paycheck. Call me a hippy, or new age, or whatever... You told me a lot just by plugging a link from Fox News. Fuck them and their right wing bullshit. Yeah, I guess we're just two extremes, and I know there's no winning, but frankly, I'd rather be the extreme that stands for morality, equality and environmental safety... you can go support waging wars without a plan for exit, supporting corporations in poisoning the earth, and widening the gap between those in need of help and those with the means to help but don't give a fuck. At least I'll have a clear conscience.

I'm not a huge Kerry fan either, but he's a lot better than Bush, because at least he can admit when he's wrong and makes an effort to change it.

And what about the tons of artwork I've posted up here makes you think I'm even remotely interested in being a politician? My dad could kick your dad's ass. Did I say I could do better? Did I say it was easy? I will say that the one thing I like about Bush is that he sure makes it SEEM like I could do it. Soooooo... yeah fuck off.


How did I know that you would bitch about the link from Fox News. :rolleyes:

I hate to break it to you, but they're always goign to drill for oil somewhere in the world. People are always going to eat animals. You'll pay taxes untill you die. Life isn't fair. The world isn't perfect.

Kerry doesn't even know where he stands.. He can't be wrong cause he takes every position on every issue depending on who hes talking to. What a strong candidate for the president.

As far as the votes go, Bush won more than enough electoral college votes. CNN.com, the liberal biased news source gives bush 3510358 more votes than Kerry. Maybe you'd like to share some of your own research on the "real numbers"..

Honestly, I think a lot of Americans are lazy. I'm a middle class white guy, I have to earn everything I get. I don't get any hand outs, and I don't see why anyone else should either. It's not that hard to get a job. Part of the reason unemployment is high right now is because people think they're worth more than what they can get.. So instead of taking a "lesser job" they wait and wait for the job that they may never get. That or the government is feeding thier families for them, so why should they have to work?

I don't completely agree with Iraq (I'm not saying I am completely against it), but then again, I don't completely agree with Bush... Nothing I can do about it.

[thePenguin]

holy hell! please dont think im saying we should even think about military action in israeal/palastine. im not all about WW3. but how long have we been working peace talks with them? has all of it done any good there?
good point on the unemployment dragon, its called voluntary unemployment, and theres a lot of it right now. mostly like you said, ppl holding out for more money/better benefits.
as far as giving out money is concerned, we might want to take a page from some of asias fiscal policy. for the last 8 or more years they have been giving ppl the option to put their "social security" money into a retirement fund for themselves. that way they can opt out, but obviously wont get any handouts later on either. this could be a good idea especially since a lot of money goes to some of the elderly that are all set and dont need it anyway.

[Helium Macaroni]

Honestly, I think a lot of Americans are lazy. I'm a middle class white guy, I have to earn everything I get. I don't get any hand outs, and I don't see why anyone else should either. It's not that hard to get a job. Part of the reason unemployment is high right now is because people think they're worth more than what they can get.. So instead of taking a "lesser job" they wait and wait for the job that they may never get. That or the government is feeding thier families for them, so why should they have to work?

What handouts? Welfare has been reduced to a welfare-to-work progams that pay very little, have time restraints and give tax cuts to corporations. You should be worried more about corporate welfare that rapes the government of trillions of dollars per year.

My girlfriend worked at starbucks.. she made 600 dollars a month.. even with her having no school dept, she incurred a profit of negative $150 every month after not even covering expenses of healthcare, car insurance, and credit card minimum paymets completly.. so much for taking the lesser job to financial independance.

[DragonGX]

DragonGX: Here's a link for you... Click Me. (http://www.artdl.com/Posts/Fuckoff.jpg) Think about it the next time you feel the need to post links like that again. There, now don't you feel special?


You're such a badass, let me tell you... :rolleyes:

[DragonGX]

What handouts? Welfare has been reduced to a welfare-to-work progams that pay very little, have time restraints and give tax cuts to corporations. You should be worried more about corporate welfare that rapes the government of trillions of dollars per year.

My girlfriend worked at starbucks.. she made 600 dollars a month.. even with her having no school dept, she incurred a profit of negative $150 every month after not even covering expenses of healthcare, car insurance, and credit card minimum paymets completly.. so much for taking the lesser job to financial independance.



Better to have some job than sit around doing nothing, while you wait for the $70K/year job all of these college graduates think they deserve.

[thePenguin]

600 a month?! ive never made that little in my life! and i worked detassling!!!! that sux. sorry to hear it.

You're such a badass, let me tell you...
hahahahahaha

[Helium Macaroni]

Yes, indeed, jobs are great and regardless of what most think, many poor, unemployed, etc, want to work. However those jobs that now, pay less, offer no benifits, or are temporary are simply not enough to cover the majority of expenses. A large problem is that those with families, or other responsibilities then sacrifice tending to those needs in order work for jobs that cant cover the basics. In short, both ends are strained.

[DragonGX]

Holy shit Dragon.. you just told one of my friends to kill himself..

Fuck you asshole.. that crap has no place here.


I'm sick of people bitching and coming up with consiracy theories of how Bush took the election. I gave him another option.

[Helium Macaroni]

You gave him a horrible suggestion, deplorable on either side of the debate. And he, and we, have a right to be frustrated, and regardless of what you think, be they conspiracy theories or not, there were indeed irregularities even if they did not end up effecting the final number. Just because you are sick of hearing it, it doesn't eliminate the validity of at least part of his argument.

[thePenguin]

...A large problem is that those with families, or other responsibilities then sacrifice tending to those needs in order work for jobs that cant cover the basics. In short, both ends are strained.
there are also plenty of lower income families that are simply living outside of their means. as is the case with my girlfriends family. her mom and dad both work $10-12/hr jobs and her mother simply spends too much money because she thinks she deserves it.

[DragonGX]

Yes, indeed, jobs are great and regardless of what most think, many poor, unemployed, etc, want to work. However those jobs that now, pay less, offer no benifits, or are temporary are simply not enough to cover the majority of expenses. A large problem is that those with families, or other responsibilities then sacrifice tending to those needs in order work for jobs that cant cover the basics. In short, both ends are strained.



Look, it isn't that hard to get a decent job. People are just lazy. I'm 21, no college degree and I make $1800 a month. How did I get where I am? I applied for a job and got it. The place I work is extremely short staffed, yet I see a ton of people thinking that they deserve $60K+ per year, so they sit in their boxers all day surfing monster.com for that elusive job that they think they deserve. And this is a decent job for someone my age. I see plenty of jobs all over the place. And no i haven't lived in Utah all my life, I've seen other areas, and it's the same way. Plenty of jobs for people who want them and have the desire to work, even if it isn't making what they think they should make.

[Phuzion]

Ah, CNN coughGEcough. You want some numbers? Look at the Exit Polls (http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/todays_show.html) and tell me Bush won the popular vote. Note the numbers in the swing states... funny how they seem to be so different there, ay? In one district in Ohio, a voting machine tallied 4000 votes for Bush, and 300 for Kerry... in a district that had only 600 voters. All I want is a legit election. Can't we just have a piece of paper, a pen, check the box next to the candidate we want, and have someone count them? Is that too much to ask? Why were there 3 hour waits to vote in the minority districts? and only 15 minute wait in districts 10 minutes away, that were non minority? Are you going to say that it was totally fair and legit? C'mon, no one can be that dense. People waited 3 hours in the snow! in the rain! to vote, and then they have their ballotts thrown in the dumpster?! because the punch card wasn't punched all the way through?! electronic voting machines adding votes to Bush's count? Funny that those machines were only the new ones... sold to the states by a republican owned company (Diebold), of which Hagle, is the CEO and he is also the new governer of Nebraska... the first republican Nebraskan governer in yeeeears! A state that in which 51% of the voting was black box voting on Diebold machines. *shakes his head... I don't know. I'm at a loss.

And please, don't say there's "nothing you can do." That's the reason we're in the crap position we're in today.

CORRECTION! Hagle is the 1st republican governor in Nebraska EVER!

[DragonGX]

You gave him a horrible suggestion, deplorable on either side of the debate. And he, and we, have a right to be frustrated, and regardless of what you think, be they conspiracy theories or not, there were indeed irregularities and even if they did not end up effecting the final number. Just because you are sick of hearing it, it doesn't eliminate the validity of at least part of his argument.



In case you couldn't tell, I don't seriously want him to kill himself. I thought it was satirical to the debate.

[thePenguin]

Plenty of jobs for people who want them and have the desire to work, even if it isn't making what they think they should make.
however it is in accurate to say that accross the board. again referencing my gfs family. her dad did settle for a job that he is well overqualified for and due to moms spending habits they have gotten a hole dug now. but there was nothing he could honestly have done. however, to support your case, he stuck with it and worked hard and now has his pick of 3 supervisor positions that will get him 50-70K/yr and full benefits from a fortune500 company.

[thePenguin]

And please, don't say there's "nothing you can do." That's the reason we're in the crap position we're in today.
so do something then man. ive said it too many times already. get involved supporting your candidate. dont just crab in a forum.
sorry for the dbl post. i hope you survive it somehow.

[DragonGX]

Ah, CNN coughGEcough. You want some numbers? Look at the Exit Polls (http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/todays_show.html) and tell me Bush won the popular vote. Note the numbers in the swing states... funny how they seem to be so different there, ay? In one district in Ohio, a voting machine tallied 4000 votes for Bush, and 300 for Kerry... in a district that had only 600 voters. All I want is a legit election. Can't we just have a piece of paper, a pen, check the box next to the candidate we want, and have someone count them? Is that too much to ask? Why were there 3 hour waits to vote in the minority districts? and only 15 minute wait in districts 10 minutes away, that were non minority? Are you going to say that it was totally fair and legit? C'mon, no one can be that dense. People waited 3 hours in the snow! in the rain! to vote, and then they have their ballotts thrown in the dumpster?! because the punch card wasn't punched all the way through?! electronic voting machines adding votes to Bush's count? Funny that those machines were only the new ones... sold to the states by a republican owned company (Diebold), of which Hagle, is the CEO and he is also the new governer of Nebraska... the first republican Nebraskan governer in yeeeears! A state that in which 51% of the voting was black box voting on Diebold machines. *shakes his head... I don't know. I'm at a loss.

And please, don't say there's "nothing you can do." That's the reason we're in the crap position we're in today.



I don't see any references on that site. How do you know that this isn't some liberal conspiracy created by people trying to throw the election? Why isn't there a major investigation and suits being filed over this? Maybe because it has no grounds.

[thePenguin]

Why isn't there a major investigation and suits being filed over this?
he has a point in the fact that in our sue-happy nation if there was a case to be made about this there would be a dozen filed by now. however, kerry is big enough of a man to take what "may have happened" with his head high and move on with his life.

[Phuzion]

Or maybe because they can only get Lawyers involved when there's a 1% difference or less... that's convenient. Don't worry, you'll start to see more on the exit polls soon.

[DragonGX]

however it is in accurate to say that accross the board. again referencing my gfs family. her dad did settle for a job that he is well overqualified for and due to moms spending habits they have gotten a hole dug now. but there was nothing he could honestly have done. however, to support your case, he stuck with it and worked hard and now has his pick of 3 supervisor positions that will get him 50-70K/yr and full benefits from a fortune500 company.



People can't live within thier means. there aren't enough high paying jobs in the world for everyone to live within thier means. There aren't enough high paying jobs to pay for all the illegitiimate children in the world. The employment statistics don't have anything to do with that. You can't make people live within their means. You can't make people have safe sex, reducing the chances of them having a child that puts them deeper into poverty. This is why people live in poverty.

[DragonGX]

he has a point in the fact that in our sue-happy nation if there was a case to be made about this there would be a dozen filed by now. however, kerry is big enough of a man to take what "may have happened" with his head high and move on with his life.



If there were any grounds to it, it would be all over the news, and we wouldn't yet know who the next president is. Look at the 00 election.

It's all liberal garbage made up by people who are infuriated that Bush beat Kerry.

[DragonGX]

Don't worry, you'll start to see more on the exit polls soon.


I doubt it. Unless you keep linking me to your liberal conspiracy websites.

[thePenguin]

You can't make people have safe sex, reducing the chances of them having a child that puts them deeper into poverty. This is why people live in poverty.
i know that, i was saying that a large part of ppls financial difficulties are self inflicted.
hey phuzzy, remind me what the name was of the group that handled these exit poles.

[DragonGX]

i know that, i was saying that a large part of ppls financial difficulties are self inflicted.
hey phuzzy, remind me what the name was of the group that handled these exit poles.


I know I'm just trying to make my point. You can't blame Bush for everything wrong under the sun. There's only so much one man can do.

[DragonGX]

I'm going to have to put "The Randi Rhodes Show" down on my list of credible news sources.

[Prometheus|ANJ]

For the record. Helium's sig is a Dwight Eisenhower quote.

As for arguments (and war), the best thing is to never start, it just escalates and no one ever changes their mind anyways.

As for Nasa's budget, it's actually pretty low, 3.75% of the military budget. I was sort of surprised myself since you always hear about how expensive rockets are etc.

[thePenguin]

heres a thought, who would have more time to stop and fill out the exit poles papers and answer questions, the employed voting on their way to work or the unemployed and elderly? i would think thats worth considering when looking at the exit polls reflection on who was getting more votes. also they reflect the early voters more so than the later. who knows? i think its as reasonable to believe that maybe kerry supporters just got there earlier on the average as it is to believe that every provisionary ballot and hanging chad was a vote stolen by "the man."

[DragonGX]

Exit Polls debunked:

http://www.lolatkerry.com/kerrywonBS.htm

[thePenguin]

As for Nasa's budget, it's actually pretty low, 3.75% of the military budget. I was sort of surprised myself since you always hear about how expensive rockets are etc.
low?!!?!?!?! you consider 15 BILLION PLUS annually LOW!??!!?!?!?!? holy crap, what is your annual salary? by comparison, its far less, but still 15 bill could feed a lot of ppl and fund a lot of research on diseases and the like.

[Helium Macaroni]

Unprotected sex isnt exactly the biggest culprit on the list for reasons of poverty. It contributes to it, but such issues as the deterioration fo the manufacturing bases in the urban centers is a huge cause, this can be linked to foriegn competition, outsourcing, trade policy, etc. Another issue is deteriorating schools, again in the urban centers, and where the tax base is poor. Drug abuse is another contributing factor. Other causes range from the lack of affordible healthcare and dealing with sudden catastrophic injury, high transportation costs, high gas costs, insurance costs, gentrification, rent hikes, real estate bubbles, and on and on. You can just as easilly say that circumstances pitted against the poor are just as responsible for lack of employment as is laziness. However, dispite what many say, significant things can be done by enacting policy that more equally distributes the availability of lower costing services, which alone can eliminate the burden on the poor. Measures to provide healthcare, childcare, and utility assistance can allow greater ability for upward mobility.

[jetpack42]

hey! look! artwork on this website! :teeth:

[Helium Macaroni]

Yes jetpack, there is, and we look at, even me...... even though you think I probably never leave these threads.. hehe.

I apparently have a sketchbook to, so my time here is legitimized.

Penguin, 15 billion is a drop in the bucket compared to military spending, and could be easilly made up by properly enforcing proper tax codes on upper income brackets and corporations.. or eliminating graft, waste, and no bid contract payment in the pentagon.

Dragon, also, maybe your life experiences don't cover every situation equally. Indeed some people are lazy, I sat around looking for jobs too, however I think you harbor some disporportionate anger towards those who may be in a transitional period in thier lives, not to mention the real obsticles facing those looking for a living wage.

[Phuzion]

You should put her show there, considering more people listen to her show than watch/listen to CNN and NBC combined.

Why did Fox stop airing the exit poll numbers when they thought the numbers were to bias toward Kerry? you want proof? PROOF. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137451,00.html) Remember that Fox is republican owned... why was it voted against having the electronic voting machines spitting out a paper receipt? All it would say is who the voter REALLY voted for... is that a bad thing? It is if you want to rig the software to change numbers when needed. I know I know... conspiracy theories.

Hey ThePenguin, what are you talking about with the group handling these exit polls? HA HA! Phuzzy... that's cute. All the news stations were spouting the exit poll numbers during the count, but they stopped when it was too far left. Everyone was watching the exit polls, and they were all in Kerry's favor, but then whoops, no more exit poll numbers, and then Bush was all of a sudden winning.

If you want some legit results about the exit polls and possible fraud, keep an eye on Black Box Voting.org (http://www.blackboxvoting.org/)

ah boy... to sleep or not to sleep

[thePenguin]

Unprotected sex isnt exactly the biggest culprit...and utility assistance can allow greater ability for upward mobility.
all of that is a good and valid point, however there is no denying that we are a nation of self serving consumers who love to put ourselves in debt doing things we dont need to do (war perhaps?), buying things we dont need almost at all (3 billion dollar mars rovers that we hope wont be a complete waste if we arent lucky enough for it to land just perfectly), and buying things we need in excess (buying a new sporty car when a used efficient [read significantly less of an ego boost] sedan is all that is required). you and i both know that a lot of ppl splurge too much.

[thePenguin]

Hey ThePenguin, what are you talking about with the group handling these exit polls?
someone had to be doing them didnt they? i am just curious as to who it was?

anyone else agree, this is much better without the meaningless obsceneties?

[DragonGX]

You should put her show there, considering more people listen to her show than watch/listen to CNN and NBC combined.

Why did Fox stop airing the exit poll numbers when they thought the numbers were to bias toward Kerry? you want proof? PROOF. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137451,00.html) Remember that Fox is republican owned... why was it voted against having the electronic voting machines spitting out a paper receipt? All it would say is who the voter REALLY voted for... is that a bad thing? It is if you want to rig the software to change numbers when needed. I know I know... conspiracy theories.

Hey ThePenguin, what are you talking about with the group handling these exit polls? HA HA! Phuzzy... that's cute. All the news stations were spouting the exit poll numbers during the count, but they stopped when it was too far left. Everyone was watching the exit polls, and they were all in Kerry's favor, but then whoops, no more exit poll numbers, and then Bush was all of a sudden winning.

If you want some legit results about the exit polls and possible fraud, keep an eye on Black Box Voting.org (http://www.blackboxvoting.org/)

ah boy... to sleep or not to sleep



Exit polls aren't entirely accurate. It depends on who they polled. What if the exit polls were skewed towards a liberal bias? I hate to say it, but the only poll that matters is the one that chose the winner.

And like I said, if any of this had any grounds, democrats would be fighting it. How many lawyers were hired for each side in case of something happening?

[Helium Macaroni]

dude, don't I know it.. don't even get me started on consumerism.. plus I like shiny things too. However it would be nice if we could institute some form of true-cost economics. We waste as a people and a nation and a government. However I'm of the persuasion that there is enough wealth to go around, if you take it from the right places, and distribute it in the right ways, along with ensuring that those at the bottom have as much opportunity, basic opportunity, as those at the top. I don't think the ownership society is good for the nation as a whole, as it not only concentrates the wealth, but concentrates the power, the income, and the opportunity. Call it populism, but I think there are better ways to fundamentally run the economy.

[thePenguin]

actually, phuzzy, nevermind my question, you accidentally answered it with your proof link anyway and you didnt realize it. reread the article.

[Phuzion]

Ah, I gotchya. From my understanding it was VNS, a group consisting of ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, Fox and the AP. It was said that the exit polls are more accurate than the machine tallies, so why would they abandon them? Why would CNN and ABC stop airing them when they were clearly in Kerry's favor? CNN and ABC being General Electric companies, GE being the largest arms manufacturer in the world's history. A company that stands to gain MUCH in $ from a prolonged stay in the Middle East, so it is in their favor to have Bush in office. I don't know, there are just too many loose ends. Why would we have an unauditable voting process (electronic voting) in the first place? How did they sneak that under us?

P.S. Franklin County is the county in Ohio that had 4200 votes for Bush, in a county that only had 600 voters... just for some more specific info

[thePenguin]

helium, i understand what you are saying and partially agree. be careful not to only promote one type of economic policy. in my experience and having talked to many economics professors and others so interested it seems that there is a time and place for almost any form of fiscal policy. a time for pump priming AND time for trickle down. sometimes classical economics works better than keynesian and vice versa. although at this time in this nation it would seem that theres a lot of both going on.

yeah, honestly, socialism is an ingenius system. just not for human beings, which are by nature lazy, greedy, and jealous. but if we were all robots it would sure kick ass.

[Helium Macaroni]

I would argue a very limited use of neo-classical economics, I'm certainly not against the free market system, but in my opinion there should be significant effort put into making the system work for people rather than for the profit of the very few. I understand what your saying though, there needs to be a balance. I however think that in recent times there has been far too much concentration of wealth and power at the top, while faculties to remove upward mobility in society are dismantled in lieu of emmense private gain.

I'm not advocating what is considered socialism by many. I do not support command socialism, or even welfare socialism, however I would argue for free-market socialism, I know that sounds contradictive. Again, it's not as drastic as it sounds.

[thePenguin]

From my understanding it was VNS...
reread the article man. it sounds to me like they did not do the polls this time. that could invalidate your linkage to ge there some.

[thePenguin]

...I however think that in recent times there has been far too much concentration of wealth and power at the top...
i can agree with that, but there have always been classes as long as there was more than 1 person in existence. kings hoarded great wealth long times ago, as did the egyptians, so its nothing new.
but yeah, there is a lot at the top.

[edit] sorry about the dbl posting, but were posting so fast if i just edit my last one it seems to get burried under 2-3 new posts before im done editing, lol, good times

free market socialism is more of a combination than a contradiction. which is exactly what im for. working opposition together, not against. do you have any concept how amazing this nation could be if we worked together on things that dont have to do with our moral judgements?

[Phuzion]

No, it doesn't negate my point, cause that was simply to show that Fox abandoned the exit polls numbers when they were not in their favor.

It wasn't VNS, it was National Election Pool, that handled the Exit Polls.

[Helium Macaroni]

Well, I have no problem with classes, I am absolutely supportive of rewarding work, and of reaping the benifits of success. I simply want to extend the opportunities that allowed those on the top to reach the top, to those who are struggling, even more as of recent. There will always be poor, middle class, and wealthy, however they are all relative terms. Why must the poor compromise 12 percent of the nations population while less than 10 percent of the population owns 80% or more of the wealth? Why can't the rich be a teeeeeeny bit less rich and the poor be a little less poor? In the end that benifits the society as a whole, as it reduces drug abuse, limits infant mortality rate, raises public health, raises public education, and enriches the society as a whole? Why can't we take a little bit from the rich guys and give a little bit to the poor ones? Not in the form of handouts, but in the form of services, and opportunities? Any costs that it may incur would be insignificant to the costs of retroactively compensating for the adverse effects of poverty, and pale in comparison to those fundings going towards people who already have enough money, or programs that are highly wasteful.

[Helium Macaroni]

free market socialism is more of a combination than a contradiction. which is exactly what im for. working opposition together, not against. do you have any concept how amazing this nation could be if we worked together on things that dont have to do with our moral judgements?

WE HAVE COME TO TERMS!!!!!!! Group hug!!

[thePenguin]

...cause it's a good thing to know.
indeed, but the article says it was done this time for the major networks by 2 groups from NJ and NY both of which are in the heart of this elections blue territory

[Mike Frank]

Helium - Not sure how feasible this is but this site might interest you - http://perfecteconomy.com

[Helium Macaroni]

Some Guy, I'll check it out... I have heard interesting things about this particular form of economics too, though I haven't really read the thing..

http://www.parecon.org/

[Phuzion]

Jeez, posts really DO get burried quickly ;p

it was National Election Pool that handled the exit polls.

Also, Black Box Voting.org (http://www.blackboxvoting.org) is working to get a recount in 34 states... so hopefully we'll start to hear more about all the ACTUAL numbers in the near future. They're basically working on auditing the whole voting process, starting with getting Ralph Nader to challenge the vote count in New Hampshire because there has been some fraud found in that state. Why Nader? Because the other two candidates won't do it.

[thePenguin]

Not in the form of handouts, but in the form of services, and opportunities?
assuming opportunities means good jobs, or good enough at least, how do you give out jobs without businesses/corporations. there are already TONS of government grants and free money to start your own business too. this is where it gets sticky though...get them opportunities with good jobs without helping a company create new jobs...

WE HAVE COME TO TERMS!!!!!!! Group hug!!
holy hell, i feel all warm and squishy inside...either that or i should "go and change [my] armor" as mr. python aptly put it

anybody up for calling it a night now that we have found SOME common ground? im starving and i need to get up in 5 hours.

[Helium Macaroni]

well creating jobs is indeed sticky.. for that you have to address trade policy, outsourcing, urban renewal, infastructure, and a whole slew of other things. Mostly by opportunites I mean is decent education, job placement assistance, etc.. by providing services as affordable or universal healthcare, childcare, drug treatment services, transportation credits, affordable housing, utility assistance, etc, you can eliminate the overhead costs, allowing those people in need of assistance to spend thier money either in the economy as a whole, providing higher education, saving, or other ways to move upwards.

As for jobs, ya know FDR had it partially right, why not create some public works projects to improve infastructure, homeland security, or urban renewal. You can finance it by removing outdated programs from the military, maybe even only 3-5 billion dollars worth. Also, take those military contractors who build bombers and have them work on infastructure as well, building bullet trains or something. Convert part of the war economy to domestic good, not only will it strengthen the internals of the nation, but it will provide much needed tech and labor jobs that are so in need today....

meh.. just my shallow, utopian two cents.

[Phuzion]

I want to correct something I said earlier: Chuck Hagle is not the CEO of Diebold, but of ES&S, which supplied most of the electronic voting machines. ES&S was co founded by Bob Urosevich, the CEO of Diebold... ah what a small circle, ay?

If anyone is interested in getting a recount at all:

Demand A Recount Now

Send a Fax Now to: 202-265-0092

Text should Read:

RALPH --

Challenge the election results in New Hampshire, Now.

Your Name,
Black Box Voting Activist

[thePenguin]

holy hell, i just watched a 12 min compilation of clips of kerry on tv talking about iraq from as far back as 91. yeah, i know changing your mind based on hindsight can be a good thing for a politician, but all that looks a lot like he was just milking it for votes the same as bush was. im now convinced more than ever that the democrats got screwed by picking kerry.

As for jobs, ya know FDR had it partially right, why not create some public works projects to improve infastructure, homeland security, or urban renewal.
hooray for the tennessee valley authority if my memory serves me correctly

[Prometheus|ANJ]

Penguin> The thing I wanted to point out was the proportion between the NASA and Military budget. There's no doubt in my mind that the military can handle an annual cut of 3.75% and spend those on poverty instead. Why does it have to be NASA?

Well, yeah, I'm biased since I'm interested in the universe. I'm willing to pay a steep price for knowledge. I think science is a good long-term investment too. I'm like, woo-woo, man on the moon! Rovers on Mars! Probe on Titan! Then I get a huge erection.

Other people are more happy with the feed, poop, screw, die deal.

[jetpack42]

science is good...it provides opportunities in the future.

[Lono]

penguin.. you completely missed my point..


Originally Posted by Lono
...just a bunch of assholes stroking there fat egos all over the internet..
Originally Posted by thePenguin
and yet you pop up often enough. hm, good job.

not really.. its all you in here asshole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lono
that "boo hoo hoo" shit is really obnoxious...

Originally Posted by thePenguin
youre right, thats why you and others should stop doing it

you right.. everyone should just take what they are served.. thats good wisdom.. should we skip through history to the times where this blew up in peoples faces? i dont think we need to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lono
...try to imagine a schnario where our government is genuinely corrupt and manipulating the nation.. possable right?...

Originally Posted by thePenguin
looking through the dictionary for "schnario" and "possable" still. yeah, i can see it. actually i do remember one or 2 from world history. oh yeah, those were socialist states. they obviously work well huh?


thats clever and real adult dipshit.. you wana throw some "yo moma" stuff in there to round off your 3rd grade cutdowns? everyone here is really impressed at how well you can pick appart my grammar and spelling.. well.. probably not,,, actually... its just you... thats really weak dude... SO,, corruption couldent happen in a democratic society then eh? just not possable? do you really want to stand by this assumption?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lono
when the village cryer comes out in the street and screams foul play,, what would it take for him to convince you?

Originally Posted by thePenguin
gee, i dunno, maybe it would take facts? what else should there really be to convince YOU? clean diapers and a bright red firetruck?

yah,,,,, "the FACTS",, youve got them.. quit hoging the facts man..
once again,, my point alludes you.. everyone thinks they have "the facts",, but they always seem to conflict with eachother.. and how does one fact become more factual than the rest one might ask? thats easy.. it gets the most press.. the diapers comment was really random and weak. you should go back to elementary school where you fit in..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lono
working the masses this way is a fine art that can be mastered like any other. would you agree?

Originally Posted by thePenguin
yep, sure would. and every administration that i have seen has tried their hand at it. most have been successful.

so you agree that its a game of manipulation then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lono
what would you do if you felt that the person running your country was a master of this art?

Originally Posted by thePenguin
u know, i dont see why i have to repeat myself for you. but if i must then you should probably get out a notebook and a pencil. like i said before i would DO something about it. u know, reading the numbers and statistics from MORE THAN ONE source, (heres one u might not be used to) thinking for myself about it, then choosing a candidate(s) i agree with and helping their campaign.

nice blanketed assumptions about my character.. more gradeschool cutdown stuff.. seriously.. your the only person here who thinks its clever. :nohope:
just you.... what have i written thats given you enough information to make the assumption that i havent done the proper amount of investigation to form my own oppinion on the candidate i voted for? but thats what assholes like you do.. they make a lot of assumptions and call it "truth".. anyway,, you missed the point once again. the question was.. what if you did all of your campaigning and the person you felt was corrupt was elected? you would do something right?
spread the word?? everywhere?. maybe even on internet art forums??? my point is this.. you are acting like a fucking abusive asshole to the people here who are just trying to express there feelings and opinions on this election.. wether you agree with them or not,, your attempts to degrade and dehumanize them is only a product of your ego.. give it a rest and chill out..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lono
there is just as much slanted information coming from the right as there is from the left..

Originally Posted by thePenguin
really? could that be why i said to use more than one source (hopefully NOT MTV news)

refference my above point.. and think about it this time.. i dont watch mtv.. its sad that you have to invent things to degrade me on..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lono
fox news? micheal moore? its all the same.

Originally Posted by thePenguin
wow, thats possibly the most ignorant thing i have heard since your last post. fox news and micheal moore now proclaim the same political views? wow, only when hell freezes over would they share common views.

WOW,, thats possably the most ignorant display of your inability to read and interpret... great dude.. you REALLY missed the point this time.. bravo!!
i picked two polar opposites in attempts to make the point that both sides are being spoon fed garbage and the so called "FACTS" that you seem to think youve obtained are less accessable than you think..
oh but the facts are just the things that get the most press right????
well what if the press were biased?? oh thats just not possable though.. right? but call me ignorant a few more times.. i think it will help drive your point home.. or maybe just my point,, about how you are a dick who likes to start shit on the internet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lono
i might as well type this up in word and drop it in my recycle bin

Originally Posted by thePenguin
then by all means do so. at least that way your computer could make you spell correctly.

OH!! the spelling cutdown again??!? this is my point.. you are nothing more than an asshole who came in here to masterbate.. that shits not cool here.. you are ALONE..


i could have origionally just said some shit like "please express your views and opinions in a more constructive manner",, but that would be exercising tollarance,, and i really dont think your attitude should be tollerated here..

i can see where this is going and im not going to get into a cutdown battle with you.. im done here... fire away.. exercise that ego..
im done with the politics threads.. its really pointless..


-Lono

[lyon]

This is interesting...

http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm

It is interesting, but it looks to be a hoax, and it was done in 2000 as well.

http://www.isteve.com/Web_Exclusives_Archive-May2004.htm#38115.6465670139

The numbers are also in conflict with projected IQ scores as seen here (http://www.sq.4mg.com/IQ-States.htm) and also with projected scores from apptitude tests from 4th graders here (http://www.sq.4mg.com/IQschools.htm)

A related article: IQ (http://www.vdare.com/sailer/kerry_iq_lower.htm)

I didn't spend all that much time checking it out so I may be wrong. Since you bothered to post the first link, maybe you want to check the sources out too. It would be interesting no doubt.

[USER777]

imho iq's don't really mean anything. e.g. some people are really talented in arts or music and dont have a high iq. in those iq tests there are mainly questions that require analytical thinking. to be good at that doesnt mean that u are intelligent. intelligence is much more than be fast at "finding the odd word" or sumthing like that. to give a solid impression of one's intelligence you should not only do the iq test but also several other tests that show creativity and social intelligence.

[thePenguin]

science: i have no problem with the search for knowledge or learning about space. but whats sad to me is throwing a 3 billion dollar rover into space with "gee i sure hope it doesnt land on its side and turn into a complete loss like the last one." im saying i agree that our government doesnt spend money very wisely and was only adding to the examples.

lim, standardized testing is indeed a rather imperfect science. the world is far too diverse to simply give everyone the same test. iq tests seem like a fairly pointless excercise in narcicism anyway.

lono, as convinced as you are that this is pointless you sure do put a lot into it. so at this point i am not even going to pretend i care what you have to say anymore and will hereafter ignore any of your posts (unless one is somehow miraculously profanity free). go cry to someone else.

[steak-tron]

well put lono.

oops, that came out of the liberal conspiracy chip in my brain that drives all of my actions and thoughts. :tihi:

[jetpack42]

i just ride the nearest terd.

[Lono]

lol!

-Lono

[Lauren Short]

wow, give a thread with the tiniest bit of political discussion and it explodes into mayhem (this one was all politics so go figure that it exploded)


once again i see helium in his corner defending that which is true and just(with valid facts and opinions i might add), and the liberal hating dickweeds such as mr. thePenguin in their corner defending their reasons for relelecting the idiot and making fun of those who don't posses the greatest of grammar(wow what a way to show that you can be civil and mature, let's all make fun of someone like elementary school)...

keep on truckin' mr macaroni, you make me proud :confident:

[sparth]

thepinguin: your comment about science and space is so fucked up, i guess it gives a brief summary of the rest of your convictions.

anyway ....i prefer a 1070 art related posts LONO than a 63 political related posts Thepinguin .... over




and yes, i'd like to really say a big hurray for Helium Macaroni. dude, you have been the best thinker in so many ways for the last months. reading your posts is a pleasure. do not be discouraged by any 53%, ever man!

sparth

[the_blur]

just out of curiosity, how many of you complained when we took action in bosnia.

The problem is: You didn't. If you want to know what the real story was read "Love thy Neighbor" by peter maas.

Osama bin Ladin did more for opressed muslims than America did (he sent his mujahideen to fight against regular armies while the industrilized countries of the world sootd by and watched). He is a hero to them.

Just like Republicans, Osama thinks that separating church and state isn't necessarily a good thing and he's got a slightly "colored" world view, just like reps! But he's not all evil. He has a consistent internal logic to what he does.

...and no, he doesn't hate the US because you're "free", he hates you because you have allowed your corporations to subjugate the third world and occupied the holiest of holy lands: Saudi Arabia.

Anyway, read 9/11 commission report chap. 2.2

[Phuzion]

:bounce: Yay Mike!!! :bounce:

[thePenguin]

im not quite certain whats wrong here exactly, but i think it may be that ppl just arent reading very carefully. ive said numerous times that i have no party, but rather vote for who i agree with regardless of which animal they ride in their campaigns. perhaps the assumption is that because i dissent regarding an issue that i am automatically a "liberal hating dickweed" and not actually someone who disagrees with the fringe on both sides of the social political spectrum and voted for more democrats than republicans in this election.

the_blur, i am sorry, but you dont know that i didnt complain. actually, i wrote to my senators, representative, governor and even the white house (pres and vp) and told them that we should not be getting involved there, because it was not our job to police the world (we have enough trouble policing ourselves) and that in the long run there was a good chance they would be better off with local help instead of ours. i requested and was given time to make a speech at several local cities and towns meetings in which i explained my opinion on the matter and asked that others with similar beliefs write to their government too. so yes, i complained then and i complained this time too. i wrote to the same offices before we went to iraq. i said that i thought we should go if there was SOLID intel indicating that saddam had wmds and was planning on possibly deploying them at some point (i had no way of knowing what our intel said at the time obviously), but otherwise we would be better off keeping our troops primarily within our borders (where we were being attacked!). of course osama did more for islam than we did, hes islamic. thats like saying the pope has done more for catholics than i have. of course he has hes catholic and im not.

sparth, if my view that hurtling 3 billion dollar rovers into space without being even 1/3 sure its gonna land right side up is "fucked up" then explain why.

and as for helium, yeah, ive enjoyed talking to him time and again even though we dont agree about some of the current issues. can u guess why? because he is mature enough to keep his cool and to realize that its possible (and helpful) to debate an issue without needlessly throwing in valueless profanity. too many ppl dont see that, including our own vp apparently, sad :nohope: .

[Helium Macaroni]

We all just need to hug..

..a little groping never hurt either.

[thePenguin]

whoa, i have a personal rule that i dont grope ppl i dont know...so i wont grope you until at least the 2nd date man

[Lono]

seriously... . the profanity?!?
oh,, the Horror...


:ay: :aa: :ay: :a!:

:ab: :aa: :ad: :aw: :ao: :ar: :ad: :as: :a!:


-Lono

[sparth]

sorry everybody (http://72.3.131.10/gallery/1/)

LOL

[LaPalida]

thats clever and real adult dipshit.. you wana throw some "yo moma" stuff in there to round off your 3rd grade cutdowns? everyone here is really impressed at how well you can pick appart my grammar and spelling.. well.. probably not,,, actually... its just you... thats really weak dude... SO,, corruption couldent happen in a democratic society then eh? just not possable? do you really want to stand by this assumption?

Thats fucking funny man.

Lono btw its elude not allude (ie. Quote: my point alludes you)

[Sok N. Wett]

Talking about things like this doesn't really do anything, all it does is get people in a agreeing or disagreeing mood which causes, verbal outburst or abuse. As strongly as most people feel about their views they should put all that energy into doing something about it, action man, action speaks louder than words, and with that said, we all need a hug, I heard someone was giving free groping, I'm up for that :)

[LaPalida]

Talking about things like this doesn't really do anything, all it does is get people in a agreeing or disagreeing mood which causes, verbal outburst or abuse. As strongly as most people feel about their views they should put all that energy into doing something about it, action man, action speaks louder than words, and with that said, we all need a hug, I heard someone was giving free groping, I'm up for that :)

I know you're trying to make peace but I disagree with you. I DON'T think that talking about this sort of thing is pointless. Communication is essential to progress. Talking and listening to others opinions makes you think about your actions ... maybe next time people vote they'll have changed their minds, who knows. It also shapes and solidifies your beliefs. I know I learn something new everyday ... be it the boundlessness of human ignorance or something very interesting and wise or pointless useless but funny.

[Sok N. Wett]

LoL, I was just disagreeing just to disagree, yes point taking, so therefore communication = action, so action is still needed. Communication is good but it's sometimes pointless when one person feels so stronly about a certain opinion and will not sway away from, it's like talking to a brick wall, so then communication wouldn't really work. Don't mind my ramblings I don't make any sense most of the time, and I predict that you will probably disagree with what I've just said so I"m ready for it.....give it to me............

[LaPalida]

LoL, I was just disagreeing just to disagree, yes point taking, so therefore communication = action, so action is still needed. Communication is good but it's sometimes pointless when one person feels so stronly about a certain opinion and will not sway away from, it's like talking to a brick wall, so then communication wouldn't really work. Don't mind my ramblings I don't make any sense most of the time, and I predict that you will probably disagree with what I've just said so I"m ready for it.....give it to me............

LOL ;)

Actually I agree with you here hehehe. You're right that sometimes it seems pointless. Communication requires understanding and open mindedness ofcourse. You can't talk sense into a pig because it has no understanding. You can't talk sense into a person who refuses to listen. You gotta be on the same level as the person you're talking to for both of you to reach any good understanding. However you should never give up, maybe find other tactics as to how to convince others. There's always a way. The worst you can do I think is to write someone off.

[Sok N. Wett]

WOO HOO that's one point for me, now to do my best Prostate Sunrise tap dancing impression.....

[LaPalida]

Hehehe didn't know that my opinion mattered so much to you :bashful:

[Sok N. Wett]

I'm just a happy camper :)