Political: George Bush is Harrison Ford

[Scubasteve]

I'm going against my no political talk just because I have noticed something that is quite strange about Hollywood and a certain movie and how it mirrors what is going on in todays politics.

Have you ever seen Air Force One? Its a movie where Harrison Ford plays the President of the United States in the middle of a terrorist crisis. In the movie, Ford is portrayed as a no nonsense, ethical and moral president who takes unilateral, premptive action against terrorist nations in the face of political pressure and against the advice of his advisors...Sound familiar? The President in this movie was meant to portray the embodiement of the ideal American president? Please go back and watch the movie, You'll be supprised how much it mirrors todays situation.

[N D Hill]

you'r kidding, right?

[Scubasteve]

not at all.

[Hanuka]

"terrorist nations".

yeah.

like iraq? Ô_o

like iraq, who of course attacked america? Ô_o

Stop it. This discussion won't lead anywhere.
1st of all, Hollywood movies dont mirror the reality, especially not the ones by Wolfgang Petersen like AF One.

2nd: The war against that terror nation lasted a couple o' days or weeks and was in Afghanistan. That's not what the fuzz is about. It's about the lack of reason for this war in Iraq. Get it, this was no humanitarian action. Nobody ever gave a fuck about the humanitarian situation and the regime in iraq. You cannot force change in a nation from outside like this. ... wtf. I'm discussing this? That's stupid. As said before, stop this.

[Jan]

I think movies show mostly an idealized version of reality,so it can be funny to look older ones,Rambo III for example.

[Scubasteve]

Generally I would agree, Hollywood don't mirror reality, but go and watch the movie again and see if what I say is not true.

In the movie, he states they the US will make it policy to take premptive action (that means action BEFORE we are attacked by that country) and that the US would not hide behind deplomacy and sanctions. That is almost verbatem from the movie.

Of course they show the ideal in Hollywood. My point is that exactly. It easy to say we want to do the right thing, but when it comes to reality, we don't have the testies to back it up.

[N D Hill]

"terrorist nations".

yeah.

like iraq? Ô_o

like iraq, who of course attacked america? Ô_o

Stop it. This discussion won't lead anywhere.
1st of all, Hollywood movies dont mirror the reality, especially not the ones by Wolfgang Petersen like AF One.

2nd: The war against that terror nation lasted a couple o' days or weeks and was in Afghanistan. That's not what the fuzz is about. It's about the lack of reason for this war in Iraq. Get it, this was no humanitarian action. Nobody ever gave a fuck about the humanitarian situation and the regime in iraq. You cannot force change in a nation from outside like this. ... wtf. I'm discussing this? That's stupid. As said before, stop this.

I didn't even consider that. he lost me at the "no nonsense, ethical, moral" and "unilateral" part.

[Floris Didden]

Watch Rambo III. It has Ramb fighting alonside the brave people of afghanistan against the ruthless Sovjets who use their superior technology to force a regime on the noble nomads of afghanistand. I kid you not. The movie was released only in '88, see how fast public opinion can shift?

[Groover McNab]

oh...my...god

[Scubasteve]

Ok EXO, forget the comparison between G.W. and the president in Air Force One. Just watch the movie, and think how they are trying to portray the president in the movie. Is he a good president or a bad one. Ford usually plays the good guy. Listen to the policies he makes. If you take an honest look at them, you will see what I mean. I know its just a movie, and it is all make believe, but it is uncanny how similar a situation it is.

[Scubasteve]

I understand what your saying Didden. But I'm talking about right and wrong policies. There was a time when we were on Sadams side too. We are partly responsibe for building up his arms back when we were having trouble with Iran.

[Phuzion]

How about you watch Three Kings so you can see how badly we fucked up last time and just where we're heading this time. Cause we're in the same position. Liberation my ass.

Harrison Ford could speak intelligently in AF1... that right there puts his far above Little Bitch Jr.

[Scubasteve]

Well, I don't make my vote on what Hollywood says we have done wrong or right. That was not my point. If you want to make your decision on what Ice-T and Eminem or even Harrison Ford for that matter say, thats your business. I was drawing a comparison between policies. I have seen Three Kings, and Black Hawk Down and Saving Private Ryan. If America left a war at 1500 deaths back on D-Day we would have not even reached the beach. American's want freedom, but do we want it enough to die for it anymore.

[LaPalida]

The story is very similar to something Tom Clancy would write. Tom Clancy is known for his political fiction (edit: they crash planes into the Pentagon and into the Capitol not the two towers). It's not so surprising that some fiction might be similar to reality.

http://www.filmguru.net/reviews/1997/970725.html

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/authors/Tom_Clancy.htm

[Scubasteve]

Ecspecially since the terrorist had tried to blow up the towers on previous occasions...

[Red_Rook]

oh...my...god

that about covers it. :S

[jetpack42]

See, personally I see reality is closer to Punch Drunk Love.

We, the public, are Barry Egan. Bush is the matress man. Kerry is the phone sex lady. And the rest of the world is the seven sisters calling us "gay boy". The Uk would be Nina and the UN would be healthy choice, but the airline mile promotion is the weapons of destruction in Iraq, not valid for 6-8 more weeks.

yessss...its all coming together now....

[Scubasteve]

HA HA HA..

Jetpack for Congress...


Sorry man.. Bush for Pres....

[Jan]

Bush is such a *.
Now you better think of H. Ford.

[jetpack42]

gotta start somewhere. heh.

the more I think about it, the more it's all coming together. (see previous post)

[nil]

If America left a war at 1500 deaths back on D-Day we would have not even reached the beach.

i cant believe you just said that.

[Scubasteve]

Why is that nil...

[MDuckett]

If you want a movie comparison to what's going on right now, watch "the Lord of the Flies." Almost a blow-by-blow metaphor for what's happening to our govt, foreign policy and Iraq.

American's want freedom, but do we want it enough to die for it anymore.

what does the Iraq situation have to do with our freedom? You really think Saddam was even a threat to us here?

[nil]

Because theres no possible way you can be comparing Americas actions in Iraq to those during WWI.

[DragonGX]

Maybe you should heed your gut feeling and keep your political ideas to yourself.. :dur:

[Scubasteve]

Maybe...But, Nahhhh...

Nil...I wasn't comparing the two wars on principle of why we were fighting them. You totallly missed my meaning...

[Lono]

See, personally I see reality is closer to Punch Drunk Love.

We, the public, are Barry Egan. Bush is the matress man. Kerry is the phone sex lady. And the rest of the world is the seven sisters calling us "gay boy". The Uk would be Nina and the UN would be healthy choice, but the airline mile promotion is the weapons of destruction in Iraq, not valid for 6-8 more weeks.

yessss...its all coming together now....


hahahaha!

this analogy is MUCH more reasonable.

-Lono

[N D Hill]

I'm actually thinking that Bush would turn this country into one big Paul Verhoeven flick, only without the robots and giant bugs... Well, we probably won't have robots and bugs.

[Scubasteve]

We'll Im done talking politics...No more for me....Religion anyone? (joking)

[Floris Didden]

I'm actually thinking that Bush would turn this country into one big Paul Verhoeven flick, only without the robots and giant bugs... Well, we probably won't have robots and bugs.

Yes.. I'm amazed how many people missed that part in Starship Troopers, and were only looking at the bugs and the cool guns.

[le capitan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubasteve
American's want freedom, but do we want it enough to die for it anymore.

Didnt bush do something called the Patriotic act or something other?, taking away our rights and such. I think we're stealing our own freadom.

[NoUseFrAName]

Preemptive action is a guise for alterior attack motives. Make the bastids hate you even more! yay!

plus, no freaking duh Ford would look good in the freakin' movie! The good guys win! so naturally it's gonna be written so that whatever stupid idea he comes up with is going to be effective.

And man, I wish I could've voted for Jetpack! he knows his shizzle! best movie comparison ever!

-Rob

[Floris Didden]

History is written by the victor.

[thePenguin]

what does the Iraq situation have to do with our freedom? You really think Saddam was even a threat to us here?

"yeah, and japan is aaaaaaaaaaaaaaall the way across an ocean. they couldnt possibly make it aaaaaaaaaaaall the way to pearl harbor hawaii. you really think they are a threat to us here?"
- MDuckett's Grandpa (December 6, 1941)

[thePenguin]

Didnt bush do something called the Patriotic act or something other?, taking away our rights and such. I think we're stealing our own freadom.

interested to know what youre talking about. i have all of the rights i always remember having...but thats just me. seriously, i want to research what you mentioned though. where/when did you here about it?

[NoUseFrAName]

interested to know what youre talking about. i have all of the rights i always remember having...
your freedom is in your own hands...that's why.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/bin.laden.transcript/index.html

-Rob

[thePenguin]

History is written by the victor.
oh so true, and yet so much of history is only perception. 1 car crash can yield multiple reports, and all honestly reported from multiple vantage points.

[thePenguin]

yeah, so that didnt help any nousefraname. all that told me is that osama doesnt like the patriot act. which in my mind is a plus. secondly osama is apparently confused because at one point he said...

"And I tell you, God only knows, that we never had the intentions to destroy the towers."

...and then...

"And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same -- and that we had to destroy the towers in America so that they taste what we tasted, and they stop killing our women and children."

and ur seriously considering what he said as truth and not deception?

...wow...if you have any information about the patriot act id like to hear about it, because i dont remember it off-hand. but dont waste my time with osama's bullcrap.

[jetpack42]

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

enjoy.

[NoUseFrAName]

"And I tell you, God only knows, that we never had the intentions to destroy the towers."

...and then...

"And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same -- and that we had to destroy the towers in America so that they taste what we tasted, and they stop killing our women and children."
umm, I thought it was pretty obvious that he meant that to be why they chose the towers as a target. They probably didn't mean for the things to entirely collapse...just for a few floors to be destroyed/damaged.

and note to people: Americans probably lie and decieve more than any other group on the planet.
There's so much scandal, spinning, endorsement, alterior motives, money and ego involved in everything that you can't possibly trust yourselves much more than anyone else.

-Rob

[thePenguin]

im sorry, but if thats what u thought he meant than your reading comprehension must be horribly subpar. he clearly stated "we never [wanted] to destroy the towers" and then "it occurred to me that we...had to destroy the towers in America." it doesnt get any clearer.
ps - thanks jet *starts reading*

[NoUseFrAName]

well, being that it's a translation, and Osama isn't exactly retarded(note the success of the attacks he orchestrated), it's safe to assume that he probably wouldn't so blatantly contradict himself in a well thought out presentation.
'Completely Collapsing' the towers was probably not his intention. Nobody could have predicted that flying the planes into them would have caused them to completely disintegrate...not the engineers, nor the terrorists.
He certainly meant to destroy 'part' of them, but not to the effect that he achieved.
And the whole point right from the start was a retaliation.

The way America deals with terrorism only creates more terrorists. And more terrorists = more need to have GWB in power...because he's the only one willing to stick a missile up the terrorists' poop shoots! brilliant.
Power through fear...fear...fear...fear.
...fear is the path to the dark side....so true.

Freedom is in your own hands. Don't be a jerk and people will most likely refrain from being a jerk to you.
....what a beautifully Christian principle. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
It sickens me the way that GWB gives such a peaceful faith a bad name.

...when 9/11 happened, the first thing America should've asked itself was "What have we done to make people HATE US soooooo much?!"
...but no...it's the bad guys that are the problem...let's blow them up.

-Rob

[Nimrod]

Exo I'm actually thinking that Bush would turn this country into one big Paul Verhoeven flick, only without the robots and giant bugs... Well, we probably won't have robots and bugs.

OMG EXO!

I've been saying 'SEVICE GUARANTEES CITIZENSHIP!' all day long. I think its bugging the hell out of my coworkers :D

[I_am]

umm, I thought it was pretty obvious that he meant that to be why they chose the towers as a target. They probably didn't mean for the things to entirely collapse...just for a few floors to be destroyed/damaged.

and note to people: Americans probably lie and decieve more than any other group on the planet.
There's so much scandal, spinning, endorsement, alterior motives, money and ego involved in everything that you can't possibly trust yourselves much more than anyone else.

-Rob


Okay, first of all, please tell me that you aren't defending the terrorist attacks on th Sep. 11....I mean, you're not correct?

Second of all, Americans don't lie and decieve any more than any other country. we ALL do it. Every human being on the planet. It's a human trait. Anyone who tells you different is probably trying to sell you on one ideal or another. I am so damn sick of people talking shit about Americans. Whether or not people like G.W. America is the most diverse country in the world. We have people from every race, color, creed, religion, and background here. To make any sort of generalization about what all Americans are like is incredibly stupid.

Third, just how would you presume terrorists be dealt with? Would you like us to start a twelve step program that they all can go through so that they can turn out to be good world citizens? See, I don't think that's going to work. I really don't. You simply cannot reason with some people.

I really hate getting into these discussions, but some of the shit people say...

[thePenguin]

point taken regarding the possible translation errancy. well put.
...when 9/11 happened, the first thing America should've asked itself was "What have we done to make people HATE US soooooo much?!"well, this should be easy. were a world superpower and he wasnt. he wanted to be. so he did some stuff and now he has some power. gee that was an easy question to answer. pride and jealousy, pure and simple.
...but no...it's the bad guys that are the problemwhat an amazingly self evident statement. you must be close friends with mr. obvious.

and are you really resorting to references to a movie thats set in a world that doesnt exist in an effort to debate? good strategy for trying to make a point. ha! B for effort, but no gold star.

[thePenguin]

well yes, lets just sit down for tea with osama and friends shall we and talk in a very freudian fashion about why theyre so very angry hm? yes, that seems like a great idea considering the last few americans his crew bumped into were beheaded on film! how can some ppl in america not see that the terrorists are sick and depraved and just grabbing at all the attention they can get to suit their pride!? its so obvious and yet some ppl would rather re-interpret the terrorists to suit their political likings. i say screw your party and your politics and just look at this clearly. the more we ignore politics and deal with this all together the sooner it can be taken care of!

[jetpack42]

The problem is that we're fighting an idea, not an enemy. If there was 1000 terrorists to be killed before our goal was accomplished, we could just do it, come home, and be done with it. Sadly, this is not the case. Our actions breed hatred in generations growing up, therefore, birthing more terrorists. So long as we are fighting an idea of "people who want to kill us" we'll be killing people forever.

We need to figure out how to make these people our friends, not how to exterminate them.

edit: and I'm not talking about with a payoff or a handout. I'm talking about putting thier intrests above our dollar signs.

[Chingwa]

well, this should be easy. were a world superpower and he wasnt. he wanted to be. so he did some stuff and now he has some power. gee that was an easy question to answer. pride and jealousy, pure and simple.
I don't mean to cause offense Penguin, but this is an incredibly naive statement. People WERE asking this very important question right after september 11, and the answer they received from our president and our government was just as idiotic and childish as the one you just put forth. They hate us and envy us for our freedom. Unfortunately this blatant lie has been spread and repeated so far and so often that it has become doctrine.

It's perfectly obvious to anyone who can look at the situation and formulate his/her own thoughts on the matter that these attacks are a response to American foreign policy. I'm not going to delve into my opinion on these policies, but if we are going to have an informed discussion on this subject we all need to at least recognize the factual motives behind current events, don't you agree?

[nil]

bloody well put jetpack.

Okay, first of all, please tell me that you aren't defending the terrorist attacks on th Sep. 11....I mean, you're not correct?


i love how this is so many american's reaction to any opnion on the matter other than "OMG WE MUST PWN THE TERRORISTS!!11one" clearly, none of this is americas fault, and the terrorists attacked for no reason at all.

[NoUseFrAName]

word.

It was horrible and wrong.
but the whole "OMG! WTF? they must envy our freedom so much that it makes them mad!" thing is so...ignorant.

America had it coming. They didn't deserve it anymore than any other people getting killed in big numbers, but they had it coming...

-Rob

[|NTeRN]

i dont believe there is a way to rid he world of terrorist. theres always gonna be a group of people who feel oppressed and hate another group.

also i find it weird we americans freak out over every death in Iraq. i mean theres roughly around 1000 deaths in Iraq, compare that to the hundreds of thousand deaths in both world wars. i know no one wants to hear about someone dying but it is a war and it will happen. i have a cousin and serveral friends in Iraq, all are there voluntarily. the know what the risks yet they are still there.

ya enough of his political crap. more art less talky :dur:

[Faxtar]

America had it coming.
:nohope: What a horrible thing to say.

[liam.c]

reality aproximates holllywood

[thePenguin]

I don't mean to cause offense Penguin, but this is an incredibly naive statement. People WERE asking this very important question right after september 11, and the answer they received from our president and our government was just as idiotic and childish as the one you just put forth. They hate us and envy us for our freedom....It's perfectly obvious to anyone who can look at the situation and formulate his/her own thoughts on the matter that these attacks are a response to American foreign policy...if we are going to have an informed discussion on this subject we all need to at least recognize the factual motives behind current events, don't you agree?

i agree and no, no offense taken. frankly, i appreciate your input. because you see, i never said anything about them hating us because we are free. that was *cough* a certain hairbrained presidents idea. reread the fact that i said it was the fact that osama wanted power and attention, not freedom. the first 2 he has acquired a good bit of. im sure when he feels the need to get more attention hell make another tape or attempt another attack. hopefully this time it will be a little harder for him. again, thanks for the input but you and NoUseFrAName should not be twisting my words. that i do not appreciate.

[thePenguin]

Our actions breed hatred in generations growing up, therefore, birthing more terrorists. i must partially agree here. it seems somewhat reminiscent of huck finns run in with the grangerfords and the shepardsons. none of them honestly knew why they were fighting in the first place. but both sides were too pigheaded to let that stop them though. dont misunderstand that its only a partial analogy though. some of our foreign policy from yesteryear may well have been to their disadvantage. however, they made the first direct attack on us. and now they are claiming it is because of foreign policy from so long ago that the people who put that policy in place are no longer in power and are starting to die off!? so that is no longer the overall motive. it is still their mission to acquire power and force people to pay attention to them. and like jet said, THAT motive is what is being passed down to their children who arent making up their minds for themselves because they arent being given a chance to. kinda like what hitler did by indoctrinating the youth there (not to say osama is a straight comparison there).

[NoUseFrAName]

i dont believe there is a way to rid he world of terrorist.
each individual has to own up to his personal responsability to not be a terrorist.
The war on terror terrifies so many innocents....it's really ironic.

osama wanted power and attention
power over what, and why?
attention so that he could get what noticed? and why?

Bush uses every tactic he can to gain attention/popularity so that he can keep his power...but i'm sure you'd agree that Osama and Bush are different. Attention and power can be gained easily by more effective means.
Osama was on the run after it happened...hardly a gain in power.
The attention he got made people wanna kill him.
It doesn't add up.

(...and I apologize for twisting your words...not trying to be ignorant or anything)

-Rob

[I_am]

America did NOT have it coming. And shame on you for even saying that. What about all the other countries of the world that have been victims to terrorist attacks in recent years? Did they have it coming too? That's so horrible and it really saddens me that someone would say that.

We're talking about 3000 innocent people. They were just people. Not soldiers, not political icons. Just ordinary citizens going about their daily lives. I would hope that that would mean something to you, despite the fact that you aren't a U.S. citizen.

Forget the fact that these people were Americans, I'm talking about basic humanity. No one deserves what these people got. I won't even go into the beheadings.

Look there are countless reasons for why Bin Laden could have orchestrated this. Everything from our own foreing policy and ignorance to muslims to plain old jealousy (He is human you know and subject to emotions such as this). I don't know why he did it, and neither do you. He's probably the only one who knows for sure. REgardless though, there is NO excuse for it.

I mean by your logic, if the statements I make on here piss you off, that gives you the right to go randomly kill members of my family that had nothing to do with it. That's just wrong.

This is my last word on the subject, I just can't believe anyone would actually say that.

[Jan]

Oama B.L. gains power because of 9/11.For islamists it's a sign of strength,thats why it's more easy for them to recruit people.
While he ideologically backens this,to say Osama B.L. is the planner of 9/11 is somewhat vague.
The third-world country,where O.B.L. was guest,did not posses an Airforce or Airlines.

I am : The funny thing with this war on terror is that it randomly killed more civilists than the terror it's said to fight.
I again recomment to watch the video of the collapsing WTC7(just put the word in a search-engine...),exept the twin towers the largest building of the wtc.Try to find official explanations why it collapsed,and why this way.

Maybe you know this feeling,when you really don't like someone,at the end you don't like anything of this person,every detail pisses you,details wthout any meaning to oneself(not to say it's good or useful,but it can happen).There is much dislike to the U.S. because of the politics they do to other countries,not because of western lifestyle or such.

[Chingwa]

This may be of interest for those with an open mind:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/binladen_questions.html

[AnarchyAo2]

Penguin: You say that pride has so much to do with the terrorists actions, but how is Osama gaining more pride by killing civilians? I don't care where you come from, killing innocent people does not give you have more pride. So, if pride isn't the factor, then what is? It couldn't be money because no country is going to pay the guy to attack America. That would probably be suicide for the country that gives out that money. So, couldn't it be that he is defending something? Maybe he wants us out of the Middle East.

You make it seem that these terrorists are savages, but Osama is a lot smarter then George Bush. Osama is seen almost god-like in the eyes of his followers. I have no idea how many followers he has, but that does not seem to matter because thats the point of terrorism. Effective fighting without many troops. Wouldn't make sense that America is the aggressor? Our leaders are corrupted by greed, and we only want more money. Haha, I mean, even the civilians are greedy. Just look at these stupid reality shows. People would eat shit for 5 dollars.

Also, let me ask you this: How would you feel if terrorists occupied America?

[nil]

I_am: youre confusing two ideas here:

had it coming != america deserved it
had it coming = americas actions provoked it (i.e., people dont fly into a building full of innocent people because they are jealous of the american way of life and "hate freedom")

[NoUseFrAName]

We're talking about 3000 innocent people. They were just people. Not soldiers, not political icons. Just ordinary citizens going about their daily lives. I would hope that that would mean something to you, despite the fact that you aren't a U.S. citizen. sickens me to my stomach. It's not justified at all...but it's no surprise when angry people do unjust things.

Angry Americans have killed MORE than 3000 INNOCENTS in their response. Not just soldiers...not political icons...ordinary citizens just trying to get by. Life for them was already pretty crappy....and then they got blown up.

forget being patriotic...that's just a supersized form of primitive tribalism. I have a moral obligation to care as much for my fellow man killed by americans, as I do to care for americans killed by terrorists.

Imagine if you lived in Afghanistan or Iraq, and your city got bombed by American fighters...killing your friend...your mother...a sibling.
You'd probably react similarly to how people reacted when 9/11 happened. You'd wanna kill the people that did it.
Americans can join the army(and get a free education whilst doing so). The people in those other countries looking for a means to fight the evils they've witnessed don't exactly have it so easy. Better to join a well funded terrorist group.

What I'm trying to say, is that EVERY reason for violence is a bad one....and America didn't start being violent after 9/11.
Violence begets violence. It was horribly horribly wrong to do, but I stand by the fact that America did have it coming.
Those particular individuals in the towers didn't have it coming....but neither did li'l Mohammed and his sister....but I'm sure after 9/11 you'd say Afghanistan had it coming.

As sick and evil a bastard as Osama may be, he wasn't lying when he said that freedom is in your own hands. To have peace you must BE PEACEFUL.

-Rob

[the_blur]

If America left a war at 1500 deaths back on D-Day we would have not even reached the beach. American's want freedom, but do we want it enough to die for it anymore.

How is Iraq threatening your freedom again?

[Jan]

AnarchyAo2 : If W. is smart or not depends on his goals.For sure,the world has changed because of his politics.
If the word "savages" is a good description for islamists...if women don't dress very boring they kill them by throwing stones.
Islamists are not defending,they want might.
I have seen an interview with a journalist,who is in contact with "Al-Quaida"-people,he says they would prefer W. to Kerry,because with an more aggressive enemy more people would join them.But with this,they could hardly have a vision for the future,exept they just want to be strong.

"Effective fighting without many troops" could also describe an army with superior equipment.
Maybe "war without an army" would describe it better.But the original meaning of the word "terror" could also describe war.
In the eyes of some followers W. is a holy man,too.

[the_blur]

America did NOT have it coming. And shame on you for even saying that. What about all the other countries of the world that have been victims to terrorist attacks in recent years? Did they have it coming too? That's so horrible and it really saddens me that someone would say that.

He didn't say they DESERVED it... (Although if the jets had crashed into the Time Warner or Nike head offices, I would say they did). He said they had it coming, it's just a statement of fact. You can't allow coporations to make foreign policy (by treating other countries as "suppliers" in an amoral chain of worker rights abuse that produces everything you buy at walmart for low-low prices) and think that your government can train and equip an army that is occupying a people (Israel, Palestinian conflict) and slaughtering them while they remain essentially unarmed, their ONLY POSSIBLE recourse being terrorism due to the lack of giving a shit from the general international community.

We're talking about 3000 innocent people. They were just people. Not soldiers, not political icons. Just ordinary citizens going about their daily lives. I would hope that that would mean something to you, despite the fact that you aren't a U.S. citizen.

I agree, the people that died in those buildings were innocent. They didn't have it coming, however, Osama chose the buildings for the same reasons people who protest G8 summits hate them... They were the largest and boldest symbol of American greed and American economic subjugation of developping countries. Once you tar those buildings with that brush. I must say I'm not sorry they're gone, even though I feel for the people that died in them.

Forget the fact that these people were Americans, I'm talking about basic humanity. No one deserves what these people got. I won't even go into the beheadings.

I agree. No one seems to mind the roughly 15000 innocent dead iraqis though... is 3000 lower than 15000? I think so...

Look there are countless reasons for why Bin Laden could have orchestrated this. Everything from our own foreing policy and ignorance to muslims to plain old jealousy (He is human you know and subject to emotions such as this). I don't know why he did it, and neither do you. He's probably the only one who knows for sure. REgardless though, there is NO excuse for it.

Read the 9/11 commission report. This was orchestrated because the united states supplies, arms and trains the Israeli army that is slaughtering unarmed palestinians in the occupied territories.

I mean by your logic, if the statements I make on here piss you off, that gives you the right to go randomly kill members of my family that had nothing to do with it. That's just wrong.

That's apparently what the United states did when they declared war on Iraq...except we'd have to modify the example above to read:

I mean by your logic, if the statements I make here piss you off, that gives you the right to go randomly kill members of A RANDOM (IRAQ) family that had nothing to do with it. That's just wrong.

Does that sound about like what the US did?

What the states did was armed robbery, the fact they stole a country from a thief (Saddam) doesn't make the act anything different. It was unilateral and illegitimate. Anyway, I hope Americans enjoy driving around in their cadillac escalades and GMC Yukon Denalis fueled by Iraqi blood.

(ps: to Kerry voters, my sincerest condolences on this disaster of an election, who would have thought that the states is ruled by bible thumping, slack jawed country bumpkins who all watch FOX News 24/7 for the "fair&balanced" (http://www.outfoxed.org) coverage)

Coastal states should just secede from the Union and join canada.

Disclosure:
My Political compass (http://www.politicalcompass.org)
Economic Left/Right: -7.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69

[jetpack42]

What the states did was armed robbery, the fact they stole a country from a thief (Saddam) doesn't make the act anything different. It was unilateral and illegitimate. Anyway, I hope Americans enjoy driving around in their cadillac escalades and GMC Yukon Denalis fueled by Iraqi blood.

(ps: to Kerry voters, my sincerest condolences on this disaster of an election, who would have thought that the states is ruled by bible thumping, slack jawed country bumpkins who all watch FOX News 24/7 for the "fair&balanced" (http://www.outfoxed.org) coverage)

Coastal states should just secede from the Union and join canada.



how do unintelligent people find the internet?

first off we didnt steal iraq.

secondly, your attempt to generalize americans as idiots and barbarians, while maybe true to a couple people here and there, is no way an accurate assumption (or even in the ballpark) of the whole.

thirdly, the country isnt "ruled by bible thumping, slack jawed country bumpkins who all watch FOX News 24/7". we only had 2 choices, and 2 shitty choices at that. only 60% of the country voted. what this means is, one shitty choice had more supporters get off thier lazy ass and vote. If every kerry supporter had voted (against the same number of bush supporters), by my calculations, he would have won by 20%. It comes down to simple math, and either way, america is a loser.

fourth- your assesment of the israel situation is a broad speculation, and largely your own opinion.

fifth- americans aren't murderers. your inclination that the average american is directly responsible for the death of "thousands of iraqis" is also false.

Its funny how these discussions go back and forth pretty well and you and LaPalinda come in and throw out a bunch of stupid shit. You seem to enjoy making fun and poking responsibility at the US, but so goes the US, so goes Canada. Chew on that biscuit.

[the_blur]

fourth- your assesment of the israel situation is a broad speculation, and largely your own opinion.

9/11 commission report, chapter 2.2

Bin Ladin and al Qaeda have given answers to both these questions. To the first, they say that America had attacked Islam; America is responsible for all conflicts involving Muslims. Thus Americans are blamed when Israelis fight with Palestinians, when Russians fight with Chechens, when Indians fight with Kashmiri Muslims, and when the Philippine government fights ethnic Muslims in its southern islands. America is also held responsible for the governments of Muslim countries, derided by al Qaeda as "your agents." Bin Ladin has stated flatly, "Our fight against these governments is not separate from our fight against you." These charges found a ready audience among millions of Arabs and Muslims angry at the United States because of issues ranging from Iraq to Palestine to America's support for their countries' repressive rulers.

Bin Ladin's grievance with the United States may have started in reaction to specific U.S. policies but it quickly became far deeper. To the second question, what America could do, al Qaeda's answer was that America should abandon the Middle East, convert to Islam, and end the immorality and godlessness of its society and culture: "It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind." If the United States did not comply, it would be at war with the Islamic nation, a nation that al Qaeda's leaders said "desires death more than you desire life."

[LaPalida]

Its funny how these discussions go back and forth pretty well and you and LaPalinda come in and throw out a bunch of stupid shit. You seem to enjoy making fun and poking responsibility at the US, but so goes the US, so goes Canada. Chew on that biscuit.

First : the only time it's stupid is when you call it so. Call something stupid enough times you'll begin believing it. You are the only one saying it, are you trying to convince yourself?

Second : absolutely right about Canada in the respect that we are very much similar to the US. From driving SUVs and polluting to wearing NIKEs made in China to clothes in Indonesia. After all what are Canadians but a bunch of Americans with hockey skates? I'll tell you one thing though, at least Canada had the spine to deny US on the Iraq war because it was a war of lies.

Here is a blatant show of hipocrisy: (This is what I hate the most, if you're gonna do something at least be honest about it) US sent soldiers to Somalia on a UN peace keeping mission to bring food to the needy and to start to build a better place to live but after a fuck up and 18 men lost they promptly withdrew their troops claiming they didn't want to lose any more American life to help restore Somalia. Why then are they sacrificing so many American soldiers in Iraq? What, they had a sudden change of heart? Or maybe it's because Somalia has nothing but sand and crazy kids with guns while Iraq has oil and a strategic location in the Middle East.

[DragonGX]

Jesus, the_blur.. If I didn't know any better I would think you're the illegitimate son of Michael Moore.

You accuse conservatives or spreading propaganda, when you're doing the same thing, and even moreso?

But yeah, you keep thinking what you want to think. you are entitled to your opinion.

[LaPalida]

You accuse conservatives or spreading propaganda, when you're doing the same thing, and even moreso?

What exactly are you calling propaganda? The 9/11 report quote?

[DragonGX]

What exactly are you calling propaganda? The 9/11 report quote?


Just about everything that comes out of his mouth.

[the_blur]

Jesus, the_blur.. If I didn't know any better I would think you're the illegitimate son of Michael Moore.

You accuse conservatives or spreading propaganda, when you're doing the same thing, and even moreso?

But yeah, you keep thinking what you want to think. you are entitled to your opinion.


Everything I say is sourced. You are welcome to call into question ANYTHING I say and I will source it for you. I do not engage in pointless made-up statistics. If I say something, it's because I looked into it and found out for myself, I don't deal in received ideas.

What specifically is propaganda in what I said?

[DragonGX]

Everything I say is sourced. You are welcome to call into question ANYTHING I say and I will source it for you. I do not engage in pointless made-up statistics. If I say something, it's because I looked into it and found out for myself, I don't deal in received ideas.

What specifically is propaganda in what I said?



There is too much to list... Basically 90% of everything you have said in the other political thread tonight and some of the stuff in here. Biased websites that are created to spread their own biased points of view aren't considered reasonable sources.

[thePenguin]

Disclosure:
My Political compass (http://www.politicalcompass.org)
Economic Left/Right: -7.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69

that things great!
here are my results:
My political compass
Economic Left/Right: -2.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.26

its kinda odd because i hold left on some social and economic issues and right on others. i dont have many that are in the middle but it averages out anyway. i think everyone should at lease give it a try.

[LaPalida]

There is too much to list... Basically 90% of everything you have said in the other political thread tonight and some of the stuff in here. Biased websites that are created to spread their own biased points of view aren't considered reasonable sources.

Just give one. If there are too many it's ok, one's enough.

Biased websites? Name one and why do you think it's biased? Considered by whom?

[Blackhawk]

(ps: to Kerry voters, my sincerest condolences on this disaster of an election, who would have thought that the states is ruled by bible thumping, slack jawed country bumpkins who all watch FOX News 24/7 for the "fair&balanced" coverage)

Wow, thanks for that BROAD brush you painted everyone with. EVERY country has their trash. Canada damn well has them, France does, England, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Italy, etc etc etc. Stop blowing sunshine up your own ass.

All I will say is I hated this election. I hated the candidates, but I'm sick of this crap being thrown around by countless people that accuse automatically that because you didn't vote for Kerry meant your IQ was lower than amoeba. America voted, America chose their president whether you liked it or not. I sure didn't, I wouldn't have been happy either way the pendulem swung. I know countless people who voted for Bush though. Half of my family did and they are incredibly intelligent people. Simply, there were no choices in this election.

If anything, by reading your post I'd throw you into the slack jawed country bumpkin group, but I'm not about to get into a political cock fight on an internet forum. Bye.

[NOOSE]

NoUseFrAName - I wish more people could see it like you do.

[DragonGX]

Just give one. If there are too many it's ok, one's enough.

Biased websites? Name one and why do you think it's biased? Considered by whom?



http://www.outfoxed.org

There's your "slighty nuanced" television "news" network


......

[LaPalida]

Ok so far so good, but why do you think it's biased? You said considered biased. Considered by whom? Biased how? If you are going to point to a fault at least explain why do you think it's a fault.

[NoUseFrAName]

NoUseFrAName - I wish more people could see it like you do.
I wish more people could see it the way any of their fellow men see it. If Iraqis and Afghanis could see it how Americans do and if Americans could see it the way Iraqis and Afghanis do. If the average citizen could see it the way Bush does, and Bush could see it the way an average citizen does. If the religious could understand the non religious...if the rich could understand the poor.

...but sadly, we're all pretty ignorant...myself included.

-Rob

[the_blur]

Wow, thanks for that BROAD brush you painted everyone with. EVERY country has their trash. Canada damn well has them, France does, England, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Italy, etc etc etc. Stop blowing sunshine up your own ass. Hey, my country didn;t go to war under false pretenses with EXTREMELY thin intelligence. And you're right, every country has their trash, not every country with trash decides to let the trash run the country (your electoral college rocks!)

All I will say is I hated this election. I hated the candidates, but I'm sick of this crap being thrown around by countless people that accuse automatically that because you didn't vote for Kerry meant your IQ was lower than amoeba. Americans voted into power someone who incontrovertibly lied to them. The US went to Iraq to dismantle WMD programs and existing WMD weapons and weapons manufacturing facilities. They dismantled the powerstructure of 1 madman and the families of 100,000 innocent civilians (and countless future "terrorists").

America voted, America chose their president whether you liked it or not. I sure didn't, I wouldn't have been happy either way the pendulem swung. I know countless people who voted for Bush though. Half of my family did and they are incredibly intelligent people. Simply, there were no choices in this election.

So ... that's why you let the ignorant and petty and mean take the election? BTW, if all of your family voted for bush, I think you should reassess what you consider "incredibly intelligent".

If anything, by reading your post I'd throw you into the slack jawed country bumpkin group, but I'm not about to get into a political cock fight on an internet forum. Bye.

This is an ad-hominem attack, and that's weak. See, while my statement was meant to get a rise out of people, especially people who say "I don't like either candidate...so I'll throw my vote away (by whatever means)" Yours is just a simpleminded knee-jerk.

"It is impossible for me to harm, or by OMMISSION OF ACTION, allow to be harmed, a human being" - The first law of robotics (I thought this was pretty relevant here. You figure out why)

PS: To everyone who voted for bush, thanks, you now have the blood of one hundred thousand innocents on your hands. Think about that on your way to church next sunday.

[benzo]

Wow, thanks for that BROAD brush you painted everyone with. EVERY country has their trash. Canada damn well has them, France does, England, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Italy, etc etc etc. Stop blowing sunshine up your own ass.

All I will say is I hated this election. I hated the candidates, but I'm sick of this crap being thrown around by countless people that accuse automatically that because you didn't vote for Kerry meant your IQ was lower than amoeba. America voted, America chose their president whether you liked it or not. I sure didn't, I wouldn't have been happy either way the pendulem swung. I know countless people who voted for Bush though. Half of my family did and they are incredibly intelligent people. Simply, there were no choices in this election.

If anything, by reading your post I'd throw you into the slack jawed country bumpkin group, but I'm not about to get into a political cock fight on an internet forum. Bye.

I think this is very well said Blackhawk.

the_blur and whoever else:

Can we please stop making personal attacks in these political threads?

[jetpack42]

dude, :stfu: with your "ad hominem" attack stuff. you're doing it more then anybody. :bs:

[the_blur]

dude, :stfu: with your "ad hominem" attack stuff. you're doing it more then anybody. :bs:

Produce 1 post where I make a personal attack on anyone and I'll believe you.
Otherwise, you need to take your own advice...

[troymcoy]

If America left a war at 1500 deaths back on D-Day we would have not even reached the beach.

Funny statement Scubasteve

[thePenguin]

Produce 1 post where I make a personal attack on anyone and I'll believe you.
Otherwise, you need to take your own advice...

i would challenge you to do the same about his posts

I wish more people could see it the way any of their fellow men see it. If Iraqis and Afghanis could see it how Americans do and if Americans could see it the way Iraqis and Afghanis do...If the religious could understand the non religious...if the rich could understand the poor.

...but sadly, we're all pretty ignorant...

:D :teeth: very well done. minus the bush part, only because in all fairness that could be said about almost ANY politician (absolutely any in this election). and each of those needs a "and vice versa" at the end.

[NoUseFrAName]

thanks. I put the Bush part more because he's the Pres. than anything....having a slightly more unique perspective than the average politician I would think...although that's just my own ignorance speaking.
I don't know...but I guess that's the point.

-Rob

[the_blur]

i would challenge you to do the same about his posts


Fair enough, here you go:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=341009&postcount=212

If you like, find ALL my posts on here and tell me of a single one where I make a personal attack against anyone and I will publicly apologize, I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong.

[thePenguin]

thats a post from lapalida, not jetpack, explain? no, im not going to bother looking at all your posts because it doesnt matter all that much really who is more righteous.
nouse, i understand your point and agree completely, i just thought that some that are unwaveringly loyal to bush may misunderstand what you were saying because that part was in there and subsequently miss the point because of it. but nevertheless i completely agree with you (dang, howd that happen? lol)

[the_blur]

thats a post from lapalida, not jetpack, explain? no, im not going to bother looking at all your posts because it doesnt matter all that much really who is more righteous.

I posted it because she collected all of Jetpack's sayings into one post. You really should have a look, if I went and did the same, I'd just post a very similar post to hers. Anyway, my point stands by default I guess.

[thePenguin]

oh ic, thanks. i did look, but taken out of its context it was hard to tell where/who that came from.
BTW, if all of your family voted for bush, I think you should reassess what you consider "incredibly intelligent"....

...just a simpleminded knee-jerk...

PS: To everyone who voted for bush, thanks, you now have the blood of one hundred thousand innocents on your hands. Think about that on your way to church next sunday...these seem rather personal, no? there i did the same now. i havent looked at all of your posts but thats just from one. so id say youre, at best, even. although if thats how many lapalida could find out of his 2K plus posts id say hes keeping it pretty well above the belt. actually, the 3rd one there isnt even true, because there are plenty of ppl who voted for bush and didnt want to go to iraq and vice versa. heck, even kerry was pro taking out saddam for years until about march of this year. wait, thats odd, thats the same time they were picking a democratic candidate. so lets move on.

id like to recommend AMERICA: The Book to everyone here. although it is easy to see that its biased it is incredibly funny and no one with even a remote interest in things political or historical should pass it up just because some of it may seem slanted a lil. it may be best to get it before its second printing.

[LaPalida]

although if thats how many lapalida could find out of his 2K plus posts id say hes keeping it pretty well above the belt. actually, the 3rd one there isnt even true, because there are plenty of ppl who voted for bush and didnt want to go to iraq and vice versa.

I only picked the ones directed towards me. I don't know what he says to others and I don't really care. The ones that I quoted are the last ones on the list (6 not the last one as you can probably see).