earthborn

[foster]

it is almost there. i need to paint the kid who is peering over the machine and her little feet and then i hope it is done.

jon

[Jason Manley]

just a thought here...Im wondering if perhaps the womans upper chest and neck anatomy is a bit pinching and stylized compared the the rest of the children and the environment. what do you think?

the head and body looks great to me...its just the neck and shoulders area that seems off. (particularily the areas of the trapezius and sternomastiods) Revisiting this area would strengthen the image overall.

that area is so prominant in the composotion (due to both placement and contrast) that I would gem her up well. the rest has so many beautiful goodies too look at...if the primary figure was the same Id be doing somersaults.

parts of that image got me out of my seat and up by the screen...its lookin really good!


j

[Living Rope]

Am I the only one to find that kind of comment just, you know, cruel ! :D
let me explain: Jon's picture is almost done and I am wondering how much time it would take to change that upper chest anatomy Mr Manley mentionned.

I wouldn't have noticed (and still don't) that problem. To me the image just kills. It has the real good mood. You seem to have found one very personal universe Jon. I love the pic (and the girl's neck !!;) )

[stalecracker]

Hi Jon-

Lovely image. I, too, think the woman/girl is fine as is. THe anatomy of all the people is "your style". She comes across as a gangly younger female. I have seen many an akward aged young teen. They look much the way you presented her. Well done. I do think that the kid croughing down in the foregrounds right hand looks too big compared to his left (closer to the viewer) one. It's not a show-stopper by ANY means. I only noticed after looking at the image for a LONG time.

[Tedsuo]

*shrug* Though I agree with Jason that if you were to see this girl in real life she would probably look a bit off, I personally know a girl with neck and shoulders that narrow, and another with a neck that long. The slightly malnourished look adds to the subject matter in my mind. My only complaint would be her arm seems a bit too red and dark compared to the rest of your skin tones.

BTW, idependently from your actual rendering, this painting tells me a story much more than any of your previous ones. One look at it and I started inventing backgrounds for everyone in it, histories for the places and buildings. I keep wanting to tilt the painting to try and see around the edges. That's my favorite kind of art.

Please post the final version when you are done.

And Mr. Manley, everytime you post it seems to start a debate. You should post more often! :)

[Imp Head]

Cruel? No, it's a suggestion not a demand. Jon has to listen and/or act on anything Jason says no more than me or you...

I WILL say however that I do disagree with Jason's assesment of the neck. I for one thing that the elongated and stylized features of the girl accentuate the structure behind her especially since she's the only figure that's been framed by the light background.

That aside I would like to see a little less noise in the background. I think that right now the furthest background with the domed building and sky have too much texture and are competing with the girders for depth. If you were to lessen the texture, smooth it out in a sense, I think the background would stop trying to encroach on the midground.

But of course, these ARE just suggestions.

You're brilliant Jonny boy

Brian

[wes9000]

beautiful painting

i kind of agree with what jason is saying....and i dont think that comment is cruel, jason is stating "just a thought". he's even asking jon what he thinks about the anatomy...i dont see anything wrong with that.

again beautiful work, thanks for posting

[keyth]

super nice. one of my new favs...kinda rockwell-ish with the children...but with, of course, a different feel.

jason's just doing what artists always should do...point things out and see what someone thinks of it. no big deal.

once again jon...awesome stuff:chug:

[WerxOne]

i disgree with imp about the detail and texture of the midground, i think if you added slightly to the backrounds detail it would help pull the it in alittle, it seems alittle too far from the rest of the painting, almost as if there is nothing between the foreground and the background but space between the two. as if they are in a building high above the most of the city looking out onto the background, that maybe what youre trying to achieve, and if so you did, it looks great.
i would pay good money for a print of its current state.

[Living Rope]

ok, I think you misunderstand me. What I find cruel is the fact that the image is almost finished and it seems hard to me to come back on an anatomic consideration at this point. I don't know how you people manage with your pictures but in my case I think about anatomy during the elaboration of the sketch, not at the end of my work.
I really had no intention to criticize Mr Manley's sayings :chug:

[foster]

thanks jason, it is something i will focus on. i did want there to be much more character in these figures, but with that said i want them to be real as well.

thanks livingrope, i saw the smile at the end of your comment and i knew what you were getting at. not that jason was out of place but that the idea of changes so late in a piece would be heart breaking. all in good fun (a light punch on the shoulder, if you will). but then again it is never too late to fix something that?s not working.

i have to say that i like her neck. it was what i thought i wanted, but having varied opinions weigh in on the subject helps give perspective.

i am excited by this painting and look forward to tweaking it more. i will most assuredly post the finish.

jon

[ChadTHX1138]

Jon not trying to stick up for anyone and not attacking J M but...

Like a signature I wouldnt have to see who signed it to know who painted it. NOTHING HAS TO BE PERFECT. if good artists didnt have their quirks then their work would be boring to look at. I could pick you apart all day but it doesnt matter cause it looks awesome.

It's by far one of my favorite things you have painted.

[Jason Manley]

Wes9000 returns from the dead!

I said what i said because i am getting the feeling as of late that this forum is more about "oohs and aaahs" than it is about art discussion and constructive criticism. We have one of the strongest groups of artists anywhere...lets hear what people think about the works that are on here? How else are we to learn...and that includes the people who are critiquing as well as painting.

living rope...you should be able to make adjustments at any time in the painting..not just the beginning..end..or middle....the kinds of solutions to the oddness of the anatomy would take less than fifteen marks to adjust. I might bet that it could be done in ten or less given the rendering on the rest of the image. (the oddness is not the gangley quality..or the skinny malnourished look...that is fine and well put).

the oddness is not in the character...I love the character....it is just in the way that the neck neems to flatten out visually (the outline on the front and back of the neck is of the same value and color and thus reads flat) and in the way that the figures structure fits together anatomically...there are things that seem would be improved if they made just a hint more sense visually and anatomically.

I agree with stalecracker in that the hand that is planted looks a bit small compared to his other one.

I disagree that the background detail is flattening the painting. It is not background detail that flattens the painting...it is how the details are handled. you can push and pull detail to any level of space that you choose.


I disagree about the perfection comment...paintings should be as perfect as you can make them. I will quote richard schmid here...and it is a quote that helps me everytime I want to quit working on something. "Never knowingly leave something wrong with your painting.". simple as that.

had rembrandt not made his paintings as perfect as he could I would not have been moved to tears yesterday in the museum. This should not be "good enough" studios. if ya know what i mean. granted in a production market sometimes good enough is what they get. (ive been guilty of that myself haha)

my statement was simply a question if jon thought that the neck looked right? I said what I said so he might look through my eyes for a second and see if i was right or wrong. if he did...then that is all fine and dandy...i am not always right...which is why i wanted to know what he thought about it.

I opened the painting...said.."holy shit that is great...wow..look at that...wait...i wish the neck and trapezius on the girl made as much sense as the rest of the image...oh my god look at those girders.....those kids heads are fantastic...gosh i love gushy looking paint....jon says he doesnt have a good color sense..haha...those colors are looking great!....mmm juicy!)

when i get a gut reaction like that...Ill say it...any crit is just that...its up to the artist to do what he or she will with it.

I did NOT ask him to change the character of the girl..her skinnyness...her lankiness....I simply suggested he revisit that area of the figure since it was so focal.

he could get away with that little hand stalecracker pointed out...its too far down and away to be of immediate notice...but its better to not get away with it...if ya know what i mean.


j


ps..on a side note I was at the boston MFA yesterday...my friend noticed that in a particular painting the mans one hand was larger than the other ever so slightly. Looking at the painting he was obviously a sculpter...but he was dressed like a statesman..the big stronger hand was holding his wieght I think...the slightly smaller hand was making a very delicate and elegant gesture. Then I got it...he was strong...and dexterous...able to carve stone...and able to teach or debate..an orator perhaps...I got all that primarily from the hands...the hands told the story.

jon is doing much of the same things here...the skinnyness...the big sister overlooking her brood of siblings and or children...herself starved yet her children healthy...you all are right about not changing the symbols of what the painting is about. That would only take away from the painting.

[Loga4]

Huh,well I mostly say``oohs and aaahs``here
when I see great artwork,because my English
is not so good that I can participate in
art discussion and constructive criticism,so I
reply shortly...but when I say that I like something
I really do.
I see Jason what you mean abot Jon piece,and I
agree with you in general,but sometimes by my opinion,
that little ``errors``and ``deflexions``makes illustration more
interesting and better...huh you see I don`t know
if I sound sane,but here in Jon`s piece I found that
I don`t have problem with her look.
Anyway,great work Jon,thanks for sharing.
Success!

[el coro]

shit, jon i've actually got nothing more to say that ooooohhhh and aaaahhhhhh... is this oil/ digital, or all digital? just curious. great piece dude.-c36

[davi]

foster, this is an amazing piece. i personally love the stylization with the neck.

i have a suggestion but i fear to bring it into the conversation now, but I shall anyways.

The vertical lines Add some what of a border to the piece. I'm sure this would be easier to explain if i knew perspective terms better, but I feel that if you angled the industrial sky rises inward and created some what of a "pyramid" appearence with the background(not coming to a point on the image, but just the sides angling in.) I think it would bring kind of a...spotlight feel to the figures on the ground....

this is just a suggestion and if you are sick/bored of working on your piece i completely understand ignoring it and moving on :)

btw, great design on your ship! *sticks fosters book in amazon cart*

[MolvaDo]

Being the major critic that I am, I am very quick to point out such things that I find not very aesthetically pleasing . The thing I notice most is a lot of the people on this site just giving their OOOHHHHsss and AAAAHHHHsss as well. Basically what I am trying to say is critique the piece, give your two cents about it, but don't sit there and say something about the person who criticized the piece before you. We can all read and don't need you to point out in great detail how wrong the person before you was. Foster kindly put up this piece to look at and get some feed back and now he has a million different posts on the girl's neck and shoulders. If you want to bicker about things like that go to a chat room and have at it. But leave the posting for images and C&C.

[Jason Manley]

the stylization is nice...i am in agreement with that.

Im not in agreement with molvados above post though...there are some interesting topics being touched on. I would hope that we should all say what we think in here.

The topics that come up from seeing an image of this high quality level should be explored fully for those of us who can not do what jon does.

If an artist wants critique only then he or she can ask for it.

these topics might not have been hinted at if we kept quiet.

1 anatomy...and the manipulation of anatomy to communicate visually.

2 the balance of stylization in an image that is heavily realistic in rendering...how does one do this successfully? In my opinion jon is very very close to this with this piece.

3 space (how detail can and can not be used spacially)

4 composition

5 idea development...


Perhaps there might have been a better time to start more discussion in the forums that are less related to compliments and more toward learning for all of us. but...carpe diem right?



j

[Travis_Bourbeau]

Hey I think jason did a great job he complimented foster on a great job and gave a opinion on something he thought should be looked at thats what makes a great forum in my opinion i stopped posting here cause i get no feedback at all but i am just taking that as me needing more practice in 2d period !



As to the pic foster i have this to say hope you take it well !


The first time i seen your work was in spectrum it was one of about only 15 pics I thought were great ( for my style ) but it still wasnt my favorite at the time back then my focus was only on modeling sense then ive been busting ass on 2d (past 5 months or so ) back then i liked pics that were more in the feng style though his style seems to have changed even better lately !



My point is that now i look at art like yours, doodawa, jasons, capt flush and so many others here in a much difrent light I see the effort and skill it takes to achive the level you are all att and wish to achieve that level with much practice and time it takes great artist like all of you to make someone like me change in the sense of what appeals to me ,dont get me wrong i love fengs work still but have opened up to a much broader area of artwork thanks to difrent styles like yours

[foster]

getting old (me and my creaky bones that is) and have to go off to bed. but i did want to say that the discussions being brought up here are informative and appropriate.

no one has stepped on any toes!

more thoughts on this tomorrow.

jon

[TARGETE]

Jon

This is a charming piece. I've heard some good crits some I agree with and some I'm like "what?" anyway I've not heard anyone point out the great lighting and play of shadows you have going on here. That cast shadow on her face is one of the boldest play of shadows I've seen in awhile and one that many artist would be to frightful to attempt, but you handle it with great skill. Did you purposefully make that shadow on her face or did the refrence material influence your choice of putting it there? it would be curious to know, because as painters we are faced wih hundreds of decisions each new piece.

The composition is strong, I love the little kid peering behind the machine lots of character and charm.

J.P. Targete

[davi]

I think this topic is getting out of hand. I think debats like this should be moved into the longue. When i post a piece of artwork i really am not found of argueing in my thread, i'm sure jon doesn't mind, but it's just my opinion on the matter at hand.

[Jason Manley]

have you learned anything from this discussion so far davi?

has the discussion made you think about any of the topics that were brought up?

this is the kind of discussion that I learned the most from in art school...discussion that challenges ideas...critiques artwork...and leads to a better understanding later on. I am thankful that people challenge my ideas.

I learned some things today about art....and refocused on some others. I thank jon for that...his work taught me some lessons. :) thanks jon.

You guys made me think a lot about stylization and the appropriate use of character structure and distortion to tell a story. I didnt think about that as much when i first made my post.

I am hoping that concept art is going to move toward the discussion of art and away from the sugarcoating. compliments are great...but Ive never learned anything from someone telling me my piece looks nice.

if you want oohs and aahs...perhaps we should make a new forum area...



j


PS...i made a new sub-forum area for those who dont want to hear any in depth conversation about their artwork. check it out in the finally finished section!

[ODIN SIX]

I know this place is great and insightfull,,,,

But what of those of us who do not know all the "Correct"
Vocabulary to use and how to use for a crit...
If get what I mean.....

Maybe that is why there are so manyoohs and aahs in
the replys...........

[davi]

i understand discussing different points between each other i just thought the conversation was leading away from jon's work and into a discussion about dicussing...

that probably makes no sense because of the way i worded it, but it's 3am. woo..

[Oblio]

wait.. i'll get to the crit right away.

I've seen "Frida" the other day and I quote from memory "You should learn to value a compliment as good as a crit"
Also... on the same note (knowing that davi hates me now :) ) i'll say : we should learn to read the forum better.
God knows how much i value a crit or ANY feedback, especially from my masters here. Yet it doesn't come every time - and especially when i think i give it my best and worked on the piece as much as i could... no feedback. And i understand that i wasn't good enough to wake up ANY spark in my viewers.
300 views and no reply – it’s a great feedback already.
Now.. back to Jon.

1 - Ohh, Ahh - thank you Jon (so nice to see the sketches go live. We are fortunate to have you here. )

2 - head & shoulders - umm.. neck & shoulders that is :p I think that a bit of exaggeration on the girl's neck harmonize with the out placed eye of the kid (the lower one). It give a sort of "fallout" feeling.

3 - the machine - on my first look it was hard to understand - looked like a metal furniture piece, a metal fish... While looking closer trying to crit the hell out of you :D i found... not much. Yet... probably a bit of rework to make it feel like a complex part-made machinery would be welcome. I would hate to see it one day as a modified motorcycle the way the red necks have - a cow moto, a fish moto... etc. Hope you get some of the point here :confused:

4 - you understand that we are over evaluating your piece just for the sake to crit it.so.. i love the grafitti on the back, the faded pink on the sky, the composition (the ways the char's look) and the expressions. So.. Ooh, ahhh

Just my 5-th element :D :p

Oblio

[foster]

Well I am guilty of ooohs and aaahs s well. I find it difficult to explain my feelings on line without the benefit of facial and body language. But?. I need to make a concerted effort to share what I think is good or bad (but always constructively)

CONSTRUCTIVE, this is the part that makes giving an informed opinion or critique difficult. It takes work to build an understandable and thorough bit of architecture to hang your thoughts on. But remember, your thoughts and opinions will change. You will take them down and hang new ones as you grow.

I have opinions and preferences and I am hesitant to superimpose them on anther?s visions, unless asked directly. There is not a single school of thought that we should follow to be good artists. How boring would that be? Yes there are fundamental rules that can help in our education and dexterity but they are the springboard for personal expression. I like all kinds of work and I voice it here. But when it comes down to me, my brush and canvas, I have to find what I really want to say and not what I think a rule or doctrine stipulates or even a forum. Now let me say before this is interpreted wrongly that this forum has allot of what I need. feed back, varied opinions as well as talent to back it up. As artists we need to put on our armor, practice some breathing exorcises, warm up and then jump in the ring. Take the critique. get hit a few times. learn from it and then counter (not on the forum mind you the analogy is just for you and your work).

Frankness, I love to hear that people like my work. it also hurts when they don?t like it. Sometimes my initial gut reaction to something negative is to get knocked on my ass or get defensive, but always I have to ask myself why do I feel that way. Hey, maybe they were right! I can fix this and I can be a better painter. My point is that I too have to work at learning from others. I or no other on this forum are above getting critiques and learning from them.

For those of you that get ooohs and aaaahs from me, they are genuine. I do not write lies just to be affirming. When I like something I write that I do. it is also easier to write that you like something than write a more in-depth analysis on why you think it is not working or why it does not speak to you. I need to do more of this!

Well, I changed the hand. Thank you stalecracker. That was one of those things I just did not see until you pointed it out. Thanks! I have gone back to the neck and done a little more painting, but I must admit that I was loath to change too much as it was working for me. Jason, thank you for your input, you always make me think and have helped me a great deal. Little changes everywhere that just amount to some polish. I just don?t want it to be shinny.

That bring s me to what i think I want to try and do. I have been walking on this line between rendered and looseness. I want to push more into stylization, texture and pattern. When it gets down to it I am more thrilled in seeing works of klimpt, Freud, Schiele, oh heck throw in the whole symbolist family to boot. When it come to illustrating I rarely get to push in these directions so I try and add something that will float in the industry but appeases my desires at the same time. I am confused and happy! I have no idea what I am doing but I relish in the search (sometimes I cry and cower in a corner as well).

Targete, thank you for noticing the cast shadow. It was one of those things that made me wonder, will it work, will it bomb? I made up the cast shadow and feel lucky that it is reading well. Decisions! You are write about that! Hundreds and thousands and they all have meaning and play off of each other. But this is where the "you" in a painting comes from. I will attach a post of my reference used. NO LAUGHING!

Thanks to all for their replies! It is nice to know if you are effecting others, good or bad.

jon

[foster]

and the finish.

[foster]

and the finish, finish!

[MindCandyMan]

I just want to say that what everyone has posted in this thread has really helped me. The discussion you just made jon and jason and everyone. Sometimes I see a work of art like this Jon that is so far above my abilities that sometimes I feel I don't even know what I should give constructive criticism on. But this is the thing...when I read through a thread like this I can see Jon (working professional...taking up half of the spectrum book with his entries)...and Jason (Also working professional with experience out the wazoo) working out issues together. This helps me look at my ownpieces and really criticize them in a more "professional" manner. I learn just by listening to you guys discuss. I love it. I post a lot of OOOHHHS and AHHHHHS...a whole lot while I am here at work...so I apologize if I'm not giving anyone what they need but rest assured as I improve I will offer better suggestions.

Ok first off before I start I will say that this piece knocked me off my office chair. I usually love all the stuff you do but this one is different. I feel a sadness for these individuals. This is a powerful piece.

Here are a couple things Jon that I may be wrong about but I am going to try to be helpful here. the boy that is kneeling in the front it seems that he only has three fingers at first glance. Also I love the shadow on the woman's face but the shadow on the boys head right beneath her seems a bit off to me for some reason...perhaps it should be affecting his ear as well?...not sure. That's all I can see...I would have to look harder and for a longer time to really help you out more. This is one of my favorite pieces you have done so far...I am really moved by this one.

[TARGETE]

Ha ha Jon nice legs on those refrence pics man (kiddin). I think all the young and aspiring illustrators/painters should see how an Artist with a few simple refrence pics can create a professional looking and soulful piece of work. Thats not an easy feat for anyone.

I should say I'm guilty of "ohhhs and ahhhs" as well, I will try to be more helpful with my critiques as I hope others will towards my work.
But theres not much to critique on this piece that hasnt already been brought to light.

J.P. Targete

[MindCandyMan]

Are those pictures of you jon? I thought you said you were old and creaky?...:confused:

[tldenmark]

Jon, thanks for posting both versions of the painting.

It was very instructional to see what you chose to tweak. I like how you took the criticisms, but then did your own thing anyway when "fixing" it.

It was also helpful to see your photo reference. I'm glad you only use photos as a tool, not as a slavish crutch to be meticulously copied!

I'd love to see more step by step examples of your work.

Thanks,

[Jason Manley]

one thing that jon is aware of in his work to a higher degree than most artists is SHAPE and SILHOUETTE.

just for a second, look at the poses he suggested and showed in his resource. Look at how intricate and interesting the shapes are that he makes up with the pose. Whether he is aware of it or not at this point (foundation stuff being well ingrained) but the poses he chooses are always interesting silhouettes.

the positive and negative shapes are interesting too look at on a very simple level.

perhaps another way of thinking of poses is NOT just WHAT HE OR SHE IS DOING...but also what SHAPES are there...and how can these shapes be adjusted to support both mood and the visual composition.

if you are working with a pose...and it seems off...take a little piece of jons fine example...make some poses that are interesting shapes all on their own.

great shapes in paintings are like the spices in a recipe for great tacos...you can make them as hot or mild as you want...as soft or as hard..but without enuff attention to the such things, all you have is some ground beef and lettuce.

well done jon...this piece is a stretch for you...and you pulled it off phenominally.


j

[Living Rope]

woaw ! I enjoyed that thread from the beginning to the end. Thank you Jon for sharing so much. You are definitely one people apart ;) I have learnt a lot. Thank you professor Manley for lighting our way.

JSR
Oh ! I forgot... that final piece is definitely one of my favorite !

[grey]

looking at foster's body of work I get the feeling he's all growed up and can handle a crit; not sure why there's even a debate going on about this. Posting work for a crit is just that: what do you think? what works? what sucks? how can I make it better? should I hold onto my day job, etc?

on that note the woman's neck doesn't strike me as off, but stylized. what I DO think looks off is her turned face, the shadows are wrapping around it in a way that makes her look round-faced and smoothes out any definition we'd see from cheek, eyesocket, whatever.

and that's the only negative I can think of, it's a nice, gritty, forgotten-urban-dregs-of-the-future-earth group portrait, works for me.

[Prometheus|ANJ]

Interesting reading. It's nice to see paintovers crits though, so I thought I'd try to set a good example, hence:

http://home.swipnet.se/zebes/fosterlass.jpg

- Shortened neck, perhaps too much cuz I'm guessing Foster stretched it to accentuate the 'reach for the skies' feeling. Perhaps I stiffened the pose, but I think it looks a bit more accurate anatomy/pose wise atleast.

- Gave the head more skull at the back.

- Moved shoulder down right.

- Guessed how the lighting on the neck would render the jaw and nod muscle. Light coming from front top right?

All minor stuff of course, and perhaps my paintover just made things worse. But I'd like to see more paintovers, even it it just lasso moves and color blobs. I'f ppl disagree or agree with a paintover they will probably learn something from it. A picture can tell more than a thousand words... ?

edit: Ooohh I just saw the reference photos... *whacks old modem* The neck is even shorter on the photo. Is the light situation consistant on those?

[Leon_Bonnat]

the lighting on the neck paintover supports the form more than the light in jons original...thus the structure makes more sense to me that way. i also think the trapezius is making more sense coming off the back of the neck rather than being concave.

but...i do think too much realism takes away in this case...just a bit....I liked the long neck and such

balance i guess...


thanks promethius....now if we can do the same to some of the noobies we will get some good helping and learning going on.


:)

j

[Prometheus|ANJ]

Leon> I get your point. On a few occasions I've made paintovers of 'noob' paintings, but that's actually more difficult cuz there's often more details to fix. This means that I have to use more artistic freedom, which might result in a different painting rather than a paintover, and you don't learn as much from that.
On paintings such as Foster's here it's easier cuz they might only have a few spots that look strange or erratic.

I wouldn't see my paintover as a 'fix' though, more as an alternative.

[foster]

hey glad to see it Prometheus. but i must say that your changes take away all that i found interesting in the character. she became somewhat generic to me.

sometimes we need to try and not paint what we know. what i mean is, don't explain everything with your paint or pencil because you know that it is there. often we learn anatomy from books because that is the only resource we have and in doing so we learn to extrapolate, guess at anatomy. We intellectually understand where muscle and bones are. we put them in and they become general structures as they have come from a large soup of knowledge and practice. this is a wonderful chunk of clay to start work with but when it comes down to uniqueness, the details that you would not have guessed at because you have never seen them before, you need to draw from life. her jaw line is one of those things that intellectually we know is there and we want to make a mark that says so. often when trying to light from imagination we over sculpt. it is natural, you are just trying to see what makes sense and what does not. but to bring freshness to your work you need to light the real thing. andrew loomis was adamant about this. do not make up lighting on your own! it will always fall a little short of what you could do with reference.

i am babbling a little and finding this point hard to explain. drawing from your imagination is good and necessary. but if you fall back on your basic vocabulary of lighting and anatomy you will miss out on the infinite joy and surprises you can find in real life. if you paint these surprises you can surprise others as well.

jon

[davi]

great piece foster.

last night i was doing just the thing you meantioned, i was playing around with crazy anatomy poses yet using no anatomy books or references, sometimes you can get to a point where you really need a book, odd & unfamilar areas become a problem.

[Prometheus|ANJ]

I understand what you mean. I too think that she got a somewhat generic and uninteresting look in my PO, but I just couldn't resist seeing what would happen if I tampered with it. I did look over into the mirror when I did the neck so my rendering should be fairly accurate. I just couldn't seem to not get a shadow under the jaw no matter how much I tried. I think you have the light coming from the other direction on your reference photo, that or my jaw is much sharper the way I posed. But I think skipping that shadow like you did makes it look better anyways. I guess it's just one of those things you have to develop a feeling for.

Sacrificing realism is one of those 'artistic freedoms' that can make a otherwise dull image really interesting. I recall seeing a painting by Andrew Loomis (think it was him) where he transforms a plain photo into something quite beautiful by just by ignoring or simplifying the unimportant spots on the photo, and accentuating the interesting ones.

I also see what you mean about drawing from reference. It's one of those things I've only just started to apreciate, although I'm still not using reference for other things than to learn. Being in fairly good shape I could probably use myself for reference (setting the camera on the timer).

I guess I somewhere got the false impression that reference is cheating, and thus I was never able to understand how artists could paint those 'surprises' you mentioned. I think that's what my art is lacking currently. But I do not want to fall back on reference before learing anatomy and lighting 'by heart'.

It's not always true that reference can be good, it could also be limiting. Boris Vallejo is as an example of this I think. His inks are really good and have that spontainious feeling (not sure what to call it), but his paintings are often stiff and show too much trace of models having been used.

[Jason Manley]

this is what I get from your statement jon....sometimes it is just as much about what you do not draw as what you do. It is just as important to have areas that are appropriately left out as there are areas that are painted in. (the brow ridge on a beautiful woman for example...what happens if you paint that too strong??..or the creases around the nose...)

sargent was a master of the above...he could suggest things with shapes and marks without detailing them (the moutnains in this painting here work well as suggestion because the focal area is so beautiful...the mountains fall behind the nice structure and quality of the figure because the eye rests on the man...the rest simply reads as mountains) After all..the piece is about the man..not the landscape. http://www.italica.rai.it/principali/argomenti/arte/sargent/3.htm

in sargents figure paintings, he would paint an arm...there are details that make the arm read in both character and space...his detail is very frugal and often is only suggestion. parts of the arm will be sculpted out..others flat...yet it still reads when the eye rests. these details and such that he would use to make an area look finished do exactly that. you would be surprised how much he leaves out and has it look complete. he got that from velasquez.


take a look at this velasquez image...notice his careful and deliberate rendering of areas

http://www.oir.ucf.edu/wm/paint/auth/velazquez/velazquez.needlewoman.jpg

LOOK AT THE HAND...velasquez gets away with this because when your eye rests on the focal area the rest falls into place (keep in mind this painting is much larger than this)...the periphial vision takes over and your mind fills in the details. Leaving out too much structure in the focal area might destroy the illustion (if you are going for a look that illusionary real). look at how beautifully he painted the head though...mmmmm...what a great place for the eye to rest. her hand is moving so the lack of detail in the periphial vision supports this feeling.

this one is nice...its sorta similar too...granted jons art is not traditional old master stuff...the ideas jon uses in his works and those that velasquez used are very similar.

http://www.abcgallery.com/V/velazquez/velazquez42.html

here is another...take a look at how he chooses to leave a lot of information out of the hands...arms...legs...but look how amazing the area looks that he sets up for the eye to rest on. yum yum...i love you diego!!!


http://www.artrenewal.org/images/artists/v/Velasquez/large/The_forge_of_Vulcan_EUR.jpg (take out the http//: to make the link work)

in the link above..diego is really kicking some ass here...in this painting you will see the most beautiful anvil ever painted...it blows my mind...while this is not the primary focus of the image I want you to see something...look at the anvil...look up at the man holding it...look at the figure in orange robes...rest your eye.....nice huh??

look at that image and then go to the very bottom line in this thread.




communication and expression is key...over rendering can kill the mood and "feel" that is being communicated...thus lessening the emotional impact the image has.

there is better lighting and detail in life than one could ever possibly invent. BRAVO!


well done mr foster...well done. your artwork has indirectly gotten me looking at art history again...thank you for that. your camments have got me thinking and reviewing the masters.

thanks


j













how many of you noticed that the man holding the tongs has a right arm and hand that is only suggested...is almost not painted. Ive looked at this painting two hundred times and i never realized it. he does not destroy the illustion with his suggestion...he supports it. for him..both communication and the illustion are important. for other artists this may not be the case...for diego..it was.

the reason it works is because he does such a good job making your eye rest on the anvil..which makes the hand read in periphial. He doesnt care about the hand back there...he cares about the expression of the worker and had he rendered that hand he would have pulled the focus from the mans wonderfully painted head down to the area of the hand. his priorities were the men and the anvil (it is vulcan, I belive, right?),


j

[Don Wilkinson]

wow...Jason thank you so much for showing the example, especially the last one, because that's what I've been subconciously studying lately, adjustment of imagery in relation to the subject of the painting by changing detail and whatnot and what you are trying to bring across. I didn't even glimpse the arm that was not fully rendered until I read your little bit about it....wow. That makes so much sense though, thanks. Oh and Jon, amazing image I'm really impressed here I simply love the stylization of the female figure against the lighter area of the picture. I don't know if it's just me but for some reason now that you've changed the colour of the little bit that the one boy is playing with on the ground, I keep getting drawn there moreso than the first image and wonder what the boy is doing.

[I.was.ink]

Thanks Jason... I hadn't notice that arm either! vasquez was is amazing! I learned a lot from your comments especially Jason.

Foster> I agree with what don wilkinson said as well. To me, the main focus is the boy messing around with whatever it is on the floor. You know what I think might do this, is because I have to scroll down to see the whole image and he's the last thing we see. Could you possibly post a smaller pic, just so that we can see the pic in its entirety withough having to scroll down?

P.S I love this piece as well. I was looking at your pieces in the latest spectrum and was wondering, how much is painted in oil in the whole piece? do you have any pics of a w.i.p? Where it shows the oil painting? and then what it looks like when you have painted it digitally?:)

[ATOMICsizePENCIL]

hey everyone, after reading for the last 10 minutes, i think i'll share my two-informed-bits;

OOHH and AAAHH

...AND i will add to it because as artist, i think its our duty (to some degree) to share how we feel about a piece of art...artist, tho solitary creatures, need community...one to express to and to get feedback. its as inate a need as is the need to express. and yeah, we all need to gauge our oohs and aaahs and to at the least even it out and add the crit.

as far as the neck goes...i liked it to begin with...and jon noticed how it could be 'greater'...and altho it worked fine...i think the re-rendered neck looks a little 'splotchy' the colors arent as even and they look dirtier. to me the shapes...most significantly, the ladies silhouette, is the focal point, so the shadows of the jaw and the brights of the neck should be very contrasty. ok upon looking again...there isnt a significant difference from start to finish of the neck, but i'll say it again, a little more contrast would have looked aight.

then there is the matter of the little boys hand...and i agree with the majority and say it is distracting. the single thing i would do would be to keep the knife a dull color...keep away from the silver as it draws my eye.

also, there is some pink spray paint immediatly to the right of the little girls head...that was the first thing that pulled my eye when i saw it....after gasping at the rich colors and drooling over the beautiful shadows and textures that is!

great job jon foster.

great job conceptart, for saying lotsnlots about...lotsnlots.

:chug:

[bengal]

foster>> hello mate, long time i didn't comment something here!! :)

first, i agree somewhat to what prometheus said about the neck ; BUT if this is a choice (and everybody here knows that you are way more than strong enough to succeed in your choices), i think there's nothing much to say! :)
i find your picture unbelievable as always, and i think i spotted you stylized a little more (very discreet but i can feel it) than usual, did you feel it too? when i say 'stylize' i wouldn't seem to be rude, it is a great great feeling to me. i mean there are less 'photographic' points, and composition itself flows towards a full illustrative even french comic way, something like this (words are missing for me lil frenchie!!!)
anyway, i love it more than most of previous works (which made me crawl all over my rug for hours already) : now i'm digging the floor crawling too long because of you. ;)

well, i hope someone understands my poor english speaking..............

great work jon.

[MindCandyMan]

Thanks so much for that Jason...wow I am learning a ton from this thread...hey check out the guys leg that is second from the right...same deal...not painted at all...I had to look for it though...I never would have noticed it. Hey Jason what would be a good velasquez painting for me to copy? I am gonna do one of his instead of sargent because sargent learned from observing velasquez.

[foster]

Hey, I made some of the changes that were suggested. Many of you pointed out that the knife in the front boy?s hand became distracting and I have to agree so I knocked it back. I toned down some of the competing colors on the walls. In general just some more tweaking here and there.

Thank you for all the feed back and help. It was quite fun!

No post, I think it would be quite torturous to you by now.

jon

[Scott Robertson]

Nice dialogue everybody. I'm a little late to the party, it has been a rough week so far.

Jon, I like the new piece. Your work is always enjoyable to view. I only have one observation to add. It is regarding the foreground shadow that wraps over the red thing and continues into the background. It seems to me that there is an unfortunate tangency with where you have put the background shadow on the architecture creating a strange straight line continuation from FG to BG. I think it might fall much more to the left of where it is, it seems like this tangency is working to flatten the image. Offsetting it to the left might help add depth. Also as mostly a drawing guy and not a painter the minor axis of the ellipse of the pulley in the upper right corner could use some correcting if wanted.

Hope this helps.

Great textures and color as always.

[Leon_Bonnat]

now i might be wrong here...but I think the elipse distortion is intentional...it is "repetition of shape"...it repeats the egglike shape in the background...

Repetition

Emphasis

Variety

Economy

Rythm

Balance

Movement/Continuity

Unity

these are my favorite compositional words....hehe


j