Arrrrrrr!

[StudioPC]

Sketch of piece for the upcoming Talk Like a Pirate Day (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/) on Keenspace and some Keenspot sites.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v339/studiopc/img156.jpg

Self-Critique: Jack's hat (the dude on the left) doesn't look right, I used a photo of Will Turner from the Pirates of the Carribean Movie for reference and I'm not wild about his sword either. His chin is possibly too sqaure and the sword seems a little off.

Angela, (The girl on the right) has something funny going on with the index finger of the hand that's just hanging down at her side and her legs are funky.

[bizarre]

how much time do you spend on this stuff?

[StudioPC]

how much time do you spend on this stuff?

Honestly, I don't know. Never timed myself. When I drew this, it felt like about ten minutes, but that includes time spent digging broken leads out of my pencil sharpener, so I can't really give you actual numbers.

[bizarre]

ok. ok. no excuses, give me a rough estimate. ten minutes? thirty minutes?

[StudioPC]

ok. ok. no excuses, give me a rough estimate. ten minutes? thirty minutes?

Hm, well I'll go with ten minutes because that's what it seemed to take.

[StudioPC]

Cleaned up and finished pencil artwork. I figure this was about another five minutes worth of work.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v339/studiopc/img175.jpg

[Phuzion]

what's with all the esses on Jack's torso and arm? and why does he have less of a package than whatever her name is? And look out for the rogue B on what's her face's leg!

other than that, you REALLY need to work on your anatomy man! I'm not joking... at least make an effort... just a little one... please?

[StudioPC]

what's with all the esses on Jack's torso and arm? and why does he have less of a package than whatever her name is? And look out for the rogue B on what's her face's leg!

other than that, you REALLY need to work on your anatomy man! I'm not joking... at least make an effort... just a little one... please?

The esses are supposed to be wrinkles in his shirt and the rogue thing I saw only after I scanned it in. I suppose I could have erased and rescanned, but that didn't occur to me at that time.

I'm not touching the package comment. :)

I make no excuses about the anatomy, but there is a noticable improvement from the last time I posted. Proportion is my real problem, I think.

[donkeyslayer]

how can you draw something from your head if you don't know what it looks like?

[StudioPC]

how can you draw something from your head if you don't know what it looks like?

I don't follow. What do you mean?

[egerie]

it means you need to dig for some anatomy references as well as folding references, hat/clothing references and study them in order to be able to draw what you really want to draw.
You're going to need to focus on shapes and perspective before heading into much complex pieces like this.

[TheBug]

I don't follow. What do you mean?

He means that if you don't study life, you'll be never be able to represent how it does look like. You have to build a memory bank, which become richer and better as you study. But you can't build it if you don't practice.
If you want more helpful crits, you should start to post more studies (from life, anatomy, whatever...) because random efforts like this aren't going to help you much.

I make no excuses about the anatomy, but there is a noticable improvement from the last time I posted. Proportion is my real problem, I think.

I think that your anatomy problems are much more evident than the proportions (which are a matter of anatomy anyway).
And learn to draw from life first.

[StudioPC]

it means you need to dig for some anatomy references as well as folding references, hat/clothing references and study them in order to be able to draw what you really want to draw.
You're going to need to focus on shapes and perspective before heading into much complex pieces like this.

Ah. Well you're right there. I have a couple books on Anatomy and drawing from life and when out and about, I try to notice how people are put together, and of course, I practice when I can.

But, I don't know if I'd describe this piece as complex though. If anything, its very simplistic, at least in terms of what's going on.

[StudioPC]

He means that if you don't study life, you'll be never be able to represent how it does look like. You have to build a memory bank, which become richer and better as you study. But you can't build it if you don't practice.
If you want more helpful crits, you should start to post more studies (from life, anatomy, whatever...) because random efforts like this aren't going to help you much.

If by studies, you mean in a classroom with a teacher, not for another few weeks and it won't be with humans.

Speaking frankly, my school's art program sucks ass. The last drawing class I took, the teacher was obsessed with Negative Space and held it up as the solution to all perspective problems. I'm not kidding. I asked her about perspective once, and she said that we really didn't need it, because we only needed to draw the negative space.

There's only two human life drawing classes, neither of which is being offered this qaurter. I've signed up for an animal life drawing class, figuring what the hell, but its not the same thing.

I think that your anatomy problems are much more evident than the proportions (which are a matter of anatomy anyway).
And learn to draw from life first.

I am learning. There's a marked improvement in my work and I'm continuing to improve. Not in leaps and bounds, but the improvement is there.

[fukifino]

Stop Wasting Your Time On This Guy!

[Lauren Short]

Stop Wasting Your Time On This Guy!



now now, i can see what you mean but remember this is the helpful comments and critiques, not let's kick this guy in the ass a whole bunch, but @ everyone else's comments rock on! (not that you were too harch fukifino :P )


yea definitely study some anatomy or get references or at least look at people more , and i don't mean glance, i mean stand in a mirror for the pose you want to draw a character in or something...

[StudioPC]

Stop Wasting Your Time On This Guy!

Ah yes . . . you . . .If the mods will forgive me for a moment.

Look, pal, you got a problem with me posting here, say it, because last time I checked, this forum was for people of all skill levels, even stubborn S.O.B.'s like myself.

Well?

[TheBug]

If by studies, you mean in a classroom with a teacher, not for another few weeks and it won't be with humans.

By studies I mean mostly individual work. Take an anatomy book and copy the illustrations triying to be the more accurate as possible. You'll improve everytime you do it. To draw from life, you don't necessarely (sp?) need a model. Draw whatever surrounds you: an apple ,a cupboard, people at the park, trees. This is fundamental.

Speaking frankly, my school's art program sucks ass. The last drawing class I took, the teacher was obsessed with Negative Space and held it up as the solution to all perspective problems. I'm not kidding. I asked her about perspective once, and she said that we really didn't need it, because we only needed to draw the negative space.

I guess that your teacher was strictly talking about life drawing. Perspective is not necessary for that. You can learn the basics by yourself here:

http://fineart.sk/index.php?cat=15


There's only two human life drawing classes, neither of which is being offered this qaurter. I've signed up for an animal life drawing class, figuring what the hell, but its not the same thing.


That sucks, you could try to find an atelier.
I don't go to an art school but I still manage to get a lesson almost every week.
Good luck.

[fukifino]

I don't have a problem with you posting here...not in theory anyways. What I do have a problem with is that fact that your threads all seem to garner an inordinate amount of attention, usually reaching multiple pages of comments (the vast majority of which is very helpful advice) and that dispite all the great advice heaped on you, you don't seem to follow any of it. And frankly, I'm sick of seeing people waste their time on trying to give you advice when they could be helping out some people who will actually listen to them.

[StudioPC]

now now, i can see what you mean but remember this is the helpful comments and critiques, not let's kick this guy in the ass a whole bunch, but @ everyone else's comments rock on! (not that you were too harch fukifino :P )

yea definitely study some anatomy or get references or at least look at people more , and i don't mean glance, i mean stand in a mirror for the pose you want to draw a character in or something...

Fukifino seems to think I'm beyond any kind of help for some reason. *Shrug*

Now that you mention posing, I do have one of those wooden pose figures. Stupid me didn't even think to use it.

And yeah, study, study, study. Kind weird though. I mean, how can something fun like Art be so much work? It's odd, I think. Ah well, back to the grindstone.

[Signature]

I too think people would be wasting their time here.
But not only StudioPC can read the comments.

[Lauren Short]

well don't take what i said as something against fukifino, he's a good guy and has my utmost respect


i agree with what he says actually, i've seen stuff you've done in the past and quite frankly, you haven't improved. i'm not saying that you CAN'T improve, i'm just saying you need to learn from what others have told you.



and yea, anatomy studies can sometimes become a tedious bother and it takes quite a while to improve but when you actually see that you have improved because of the knowledge you aquired during studying you'll want to study more and more, that is where the fun comes from, the fun is in the challenge, not just the fact that you're creating something :wink:

[StudioPC]

I don't have a problem with you posting here...not in theory anyways. What I do have a problem with is that fact that your threads all seem to garner an inordinate amount of attention, usually reaching multiple pages of comments (the vast majority of which is very helpful advice) and that dispite all the great advice heaped on you, you don't seem to follow any of it. And frankly, I'm sick of seeing people waste their time on trying to give you advice when they could be helping out some people who will actually listen to them.

I see.

Well, I disagree. I believe that there is improvement, as I DO take note of all critique, and simply because the changes and improvement are slow to show, DOES NOT necessacarily mean that I'm not listening.

Not once have I ever claimed to be a great artist and if people ever give my stuff five star reviews, I'm going to be very surprised. But I do have it within me to be a competant artist to the point where I could be paid for my work. But to get to that point takes time and paitence.

[Cyrus]

And yeah, study, study, study. Kind weird though. I mean, how can something fun like Art be so much work? It's odd, I think. Ah well, back to the grindstone.

It can be fun, in fact, I think it would almost impossible for most artists if they didn't enjoy it at least a little. One suggestion I'll make is to try copying some of the pictures in your anatomy books, and take as long as you think is necessary to make your picture look as close as possible to the original, all the while studying why the object looks that way; depending on the complexity of the object, it may take anywhere from ten minutes to ten hours, even for a seemingly simple object. It's all about wanting to be good at what you're doing and yes, that might take some work too.

You should definetly try reading "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain," good book.

[StudioPC]

well don't take what i said as something against fukifino, he's a good guy and has my utmost respect

i agree with what he says actually, i've seen stuff you've done in the past and quite frankly, you haven't improved. i'm not saying that you CAN'T improve, i'm just saying you need to learn from what others have told you.

and yea, anatomy studies can sometimes become a tedious bother and it takes quite a while to improve but when you actually see that you have improved because of the knowledge you aquired during studying you'll want to study more and more, that is where the fun comes from, the fun is in the challenge, not just the fact that you're creating something :wink:

You really don't see improvement? I do. I see more three-dimensional figures and better proportion. Not perfect, but its getting better with each new drawing.

As for the fun, I think I see now (don't ask me why I've just now figured this out, I couldn't tell you) why I keep getting the same critiques. To me, concept art is just that, the concept. Its about the idea rather then the execution.

Like the pirate drawing up there, as bad an example as it is. Look at their expressions. He's enjoying the hell out of this and she's hating every second of it. Right there, is a story. How? Why? Will she kill him for making her do this? She's certainly thinking about it.

I like creating worlds and characters to put into those worlds. I'm an idea man. To me, concept art is about getting that idea across in pictures, not necessacarily realistic pictures. Look at shows like Dexter's Labratory. I bet that if we looked at the concept art for the show, it wouldn't be realistic, but Dexter's arrogance would show through.

I'm not sure if the above makes any sense to anyone but me, and hell, it probably looks like I'm making excuses, but that's how I see concept art.

[StudioPC]

By studies I mean mostly individual work. Take an anatomy book and copy the illustrations triying to be the more accurate as possible. You'll improve everytime you do it. To draw from life, you don't necessarely (sp?) need a model. Draw whatever surrounds you: an apple ,a cupboard, people at the park, trees. This is fundamental.

I guess that your teacher was strictly talking about life drawing. Perspective is not necessary for that. You can learn the basics by yourself here:

http://fineart.sk/index.php?cat=15

That sucks, you could try to find an atelier.
I don't go to an art school but I still manage to get a lesson almost every week.
Good luck.

An atelier? What's that?

She was talking about perspective because I flat out asked her if we were going to cover it and she told me to just draw negative space.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out tonight.

[Sok N. Wett]

There are some few tutorials in here that has tutorial on faces, and bodies and such. Or you can find some on the internet. You should practice one thing at a time, one day focus on faces, another day focus on the arm, and next day, and so on. Look closer at how the human body, and take notes if you have to, Go to the mirror and draw yourself to see where all the body parts are placed. If you can't draw from life, find a photo of a person standing just like your pirate and mimic what you see on there but add the special costume on that outline.

I know it's frustrating to help someone and seeing that they don't improve from the last time, I've tried to help my little 10 year old bro learn how to draw, and amaze that he can't draw a circle, and sometimes i just want to give up. But StudioPC your not giving up so I know that your at least trying, so as long as you keep trying, you won't have regrets. Draw from life/photo and remember how you did those lines, then draw from that experience.

[Signature]

If you think it is about the idea rather than about the execution better post at Deviantart.
Maybe it is fun for you to do those. But they are not fun to look at.

When you try to pull something that difficult off then at least don't ask for critiques.
I think the best advice you got is: don't post your concepts for a while.
Post your studies instead, please.

[StudioPC]

There are some few tutorials in here that has tutorial on faces, and bodies and such. Or you can find some on the internet. You should practice one thing at a time, one day focus on faces, another day focus on the arm, and next day, and so on. Look closer at how the human body, and take notes if you have to, Go to the mirror and draw yourself to see where all the body parts are placed. If you can't draw from life, find a photo of a person standing just like your pirate and mimic what you see on there but add the special costume on that outline.

I know it's frustrating to help someone and seeing that they don't improve from the last time, I've tried to help my little 10 year old bro learn how to draw, and amaze that he can't draw a circle, and sometimes i just want to give up. But StudioPC your not giving up so I know that your at least trying, so as long as you keep trying, you won't have regrets. Draw from life/photo and remember how you did those lines, then draw from that experience.

Agreed all around.

[StudioPC]

If you think it is about the idea rather than about the execution better post at Deviantart.
Maybe it is fun for you to do those. But they are not fun to look at.

When you try to pull something that difficult off then at least don't ask for critiques.
I think the best advice you got is: don't post your concepts for a while.
Post your studies instead, please.

I see. Fair enough.

[Lauren Short]

it seems to me that you definitely have the inspiration to do conceptual design...but you have to learn the basics before you can make any of your ideas look remotely real...when you were explaining what the above characters were doing i honestly don't see that, but that's okay, the reason to study is to be able to communicate your message properly so we all can see your idea and understand :)

[StudioPC]

it seems to me that you definitely have the inspiration to do conceptual design...but you have to learn the basics before you can make any of your ideas look remotely real...when you were explaining what the above characters were doing i honestly don't see that, but that's okay, the reason to study is to be able to communicate your message properly so we all can see your idea and understand :)

::Nods:: I was never classically trained, so to speak, I taught myself out of books (I have a shelf's worth), off of websites, and the occasional class. So all the basics I know are from there. That's not an excuse, that's just me stating where I'm coming from.

Ironically, now that I'm trying the class method again, good ol' Govener Terminator has slashed the Jr college funding and fees are soaring. Which means I'm back to teaching myself and turning to books and websites while job-hunting and trying to scrape together money so I can stay in school because the economy for basic CS here in CA is in the crapper.

If I wasn't so damn stubborn, I'd walk away from drawing entirely.

[|NTeRN]

junior colleges are like $30 bucks a class. also ignor what youve learned previouslly. it will only keep you at the level youve been at sence you came here

[inspector Lee]

StudioPC, one piece of advice:
If people post crits and comments on yer thread and what they mostly get in response is excuses, pretty soon they just stop responding to threads with yer name on them.

[StudioPC]

junior colleges are like $30 bucks a class. also ignor what youve learned previouslly. it will only keep you at the level youve been at sence you came here

Its still cheaper then uni and probably most art schools.

Intern, I respect that you've taken the time to critique, despite my hardheaddedness, so I mean no meaness when I ask if you could define what you mean when you say, study anatomy?

When I think study anatomy, I think of it as knowing proportion and where everything goes. Really, when you break it down, the human body is a collection of cubes, cylinders and spheres in a certain arrangement which are then altered into a series of curves and edges.

[|NTeRN]

Ironically, now that I'm trying the class method again, good ol' Govener Terminator has slashed the Jr college funding and fees are soaring.


thats what i meant by JC's being only $30 a class. not expensive at all. and by anatomy i mean learn it. you obviously dont have and comprehension about what it is or how to you use it. using cubes and cylinders are good, but the only help when you know what the cude is representing and how it moves in real life.

[Mike Frank]

I have seen a few of your posts now, I do agree that you are getting a better hand on the volume of these forms. But I want to digress a little bit from technicalities for a second so as to help you understand why they are important.

Ok so from the looks of it you are trying to do illustration type stuff, representing characters either in a realistic or somewhat exaggerated style and depicting them interacting, in environments etc. All of us here are in the same boat pretty much and are trying to help you improve on what you're doing by telling you how we do it or are going to do it.

So anyways.. what is our goal, what is it that we really want to achieve with our imagery? At the very root of it we are trying to communicate something - a story, an idea, an emotion, etc. Whatever it is we are trying to get across, we want every other aspect of our image to not get in its way. We dont want someone to look at our image and have the first thing they think be "Thats not what hands look like" or "That face looks a little crooked" or "That character is way out of scale with the background" or "I can't even tell whats supposed to be happening" and so on and so on. We want people to look at our stuff and understand what it is we are trying to convey.

So what is it that will kill an image and stop us from getting our point across? Its not realism.. its BELIEVABILTY. Just like how in a bad movie when the cheesy bad guy character won't die even though he's been put through a wood chipper and there's no logical explanation for why he is still alive. It kills the story because you don't believe it and thats what kills illustrations too.

So how do we enhance the believability of our images? We learn how the eye sees - lighting/value, perspective, color. We learn about what the eye is seeing - forms, masses, planes, proportion, anatomy, etc. And we set these things down in a pleasing arrangement that is not confusing to the eye - composition. If we achieve this nobody but an artist will see all the techinical merits of our work, they will just simply believe that this scene or character or idea we've created EXISTS or could exist, because well, they can believe it.

That is what all of us are after and that is why you get the critiques you are getting. Everything people are trying to tell you to do is to help you in this one aspect of believability.

If you want to get a sense of what it is you are trying to accomplish I recommend you go to http://www.fineart.sk/index.php?cat=1 and read all of the Andrew Loomis books, start with Successful Drawing, then Figure Drawing for All It's Worth/Drawing the Head and Hands, and then Creative Illustration. Don't worry about making art exactly just read through them all to get a sense of the big picture that is art. And these are just 4 books. There is I'm sure so much more to know but this is a good place to start.

Maybe you know all this stuff already, maybe not, but I feel like some of the technical stuff isn't getting through very much to you and I thought I would take a stab at writing why it is important. Hope I have been some help at least. Peace and good luck.

[StudioPC]

thats what i meant by JC's being only $30 a class. not expensive at all. and by anatomy i mean learn it. you obviously dont have and comprehension about what it is or how to you use it. using cubes and cylinders are good, but the only help when you know what the cude is representing and how it moves in real life.

. . . *LOL*

So that's the issue is it? I don't know what does what because my art doesn't *look* like I know? *Snicker*

Right off the top of my head:

Bending your arm at the elbow involves the tightening or contracting of the bicep while the tricep, which lies on the underside/backside of the arm lengthens. Rotation of the forearm so the palm of the hand faces downward causes the bones in the forearm to cross, increasing their load-bearing strength. This is why in Karate, students are taught to rotate the arm as they throw a punch, because it helps them hit harder. It's also why shoulder muscles are just as important in bench presses and power lifting because they bear part of the load, as do the back muscels, especially when lifting something over your head while upright.

Walking isn't walking, but a series of controlled falls, just like running is a series of jumps that's roughly the length of your stride.

I can even describe guidelines for animating a person moving their arm, if you like. Motion, intertia, and I are old friends. Or maybe you'd like to discuss the mechanics of your lungs, why DNA is why you look the way you do, or how the human body jumps.

I know anatomy, intern. I know what those cubes and spheres, and cylinders represent and do, even if I don't know their names without looking it up in a book or be able to draw the muscles and bones without reference.

No, anatomy isn't my problem. Its getting those shapes to look like what they're representing, that's my problem and that's what I need help in.

[Mike Frank]

"It is a truism that you cannot draw something unless you know what it looks like. It is also true that just because you know something very well, it does not mean that you can draw it. I have taught many medical personnel, including doctors, nurses, and various specialists with much more understanding of anatomy than myself. In fact, it took a while for me to realize that just knowing anatomy would not make me draw better. What I needed was a method of understanding anatomical facts so that I could use these landmarks as tools of communication and expression without violating basic anatomical reality and thereby detracting from the drawing what it was trying to communicate." - Glenn Vilppu, The Vilppu Drawing Manual.

[StudioPC]

Maybe you know all this stuff already, maybe not, but I feel like some of the technical stuff isn't getting through very much to you and I thought I would take a stab at writing why it is important. Hope I have been some help at least. Peace and good luck.

Well it depends on what you mean by technical stuff. If you mean knowing the names of all muscels and bones, where they are in the body, and having the ability to draw them, then no, I haven't a clue.

On the other hand, I had health classes shoved at me while growing up, I'm majoring in animation, I've taken martial arts, and somewhere growing up, I picked up a probably unhealthy interest in ways to violently do bad things to the human body.

As I said in my post to intern, I know what the cubes and cylinders represent and what they do, even if I couldn't tell you their actual names without a reference. I know how upright walking and running works. And four legged walking and running, for that matter.

Its the not the mechanics that worry me, I don't even think about them, because, well, they're just there in my head, which, come to think of it, not thinking about them might be part of my problem.

Anyways, the point is, my problem is getting those cubes and cylinders to look like what they're supposed to be. I know what they are, I just need to figure out how to make them represent that.

[StudioPC]

"It is a truism that you cannot draw something unless you know what it looks like. It is also true that just because you know something very well, it does not mean that you can draw it. I have taught many medical personnel, including doctors, nurses, and various specialists with much more understanding of anatomy than myself. In fact, it took a while for me to realize that just knowing anatomy would not make me draw better. What I needed was a method of understanding anatomical facts so that I could use these landmarks as tools of communication and expression without violating basic anatomical reality and thereby detracting from the drawing what it was trying to communicate." - Glenn Vilppu, The Vilppu Drawing Manual.

Just to be sure I understand you right. Knowing the form doesn't eqaul the function? Agreed there.

[Mike Frank]

I think more what he is trying to say is that without knowing what something looks like you won't be able to draw or depict it. You draw what you're knowledge allows. Even if you're a doctor with indepth knowledge of anatomy if you do not know how to depict it in an image, just knowing anatomy won't help you. Although we are trying to understand the shape, placement, and proportions of bones and muscles in the body, we are not trying to actually depict those things, we are trying to communicate a figure with all these things lying underneath. Using our knowledge of anatomy we can better depict the figure as we can look at the surface and understand how it is influenced by all of the bones and muscles.

Knowing the form of something can help you to understand its function, especially in the case of muscles. For instance knowing that the bicep originates at the top of the humerus and inserts at the ulna will tell you that the bicep can raise the forearm.

Anyways here is a little demo I made for you to help understand how one might go about depicting this stuff and how you can use knowledge of anatomy to understand how to create a figure. I have really only been studying anatomy in depth for a month and half or so and this is all done off the top of my head, but I think it might help. Notice how even when dealing with forms other than cylinders, boxes, etc, we are still trying to understand how their shapes have mass and depth. Oh and this is not very in depth I wanted to show you more of a step by step instead of just jumping from basic forms into full out figures.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/some_guy/anat-demo.jpg

[StudioPC]

I think more what he is trying to say is that without knowing what something looks like you won't be able to draw or depict it. You draw what you're knowledge allows. Even if you're a doctor with indepth knowledge of anatomy if you do not know how to depict it in an image, just knowing anatomy won't help you. Although we are trying to understand the shape, placement, and proportions of bones and muscles in the body, we are not trying to actually depict those things, we are trying to communicate a figure with all these things lying underneath. Using our knowledge of anatomy we can better depict the figure as we can look at the surface and understand how it is influenced by all of the bones and muscles.

Knowing the form of something can help you to understand its function, especially in the case of muscles. For instance knowing that the bicep originates at the top of the humerus and inserts at the ulna will tell you that the bicep can raise the forearm.

Anyways here is a little demo I made for you to help understand how one might go about depicting this stuff and how you can use knowledge of anatomy to understand how to create a figure. I have really only been studying anatomy in depth for a month and half or so and this is all done off the top of my head, but I think it might help. Notice how even when dealing with forms other than cylinders, boxes, etc, we are still trying to understand how their shapes have mass and depth. Oh and this is not very in depth I wanted to show you more of a step by step instead of just jumping from basic forms into full out figures.

Right, that's where I'm stuck. Its the fleshing out that's giving me trouble.

[inspector Lee]

studio PC, you sure spend a lot of time posting and writing here. Yet by your own admission you spent a total of about 10 minutes actually drawing this thing. Looks like you've spent a lot more time defending your stuff than actually drawing it. Gee , no wonder you draw like crap.

[StudioPC]

studio PC, you sure spend a lot of time posting and writing here. Yet by your own admission you spent a total of about 10 minutes actually drawing this thing. Looks like you've spent a lot more time defending your stuff than actually drawing it. Gee , no wonder you draw like crap.

A) it was a quick sketch that I don't know how long it took because I wasn't timing myself. Ten minutes was a guess.

B) I have the right to defend my work

[Mike Frank]

All I did to flesh that out was erase those lines indicating the individual muscles and put some nipples on his chest. Fleshing him out came from knowledge of the forms of the body that I have memorized. That is all there is to it. Try drawing the image I made yourself, do each step and make sure to use your basic forms, dont copy it in a 2d sort of way.

There is no other way to know these things besides to study them that is what everyone has been trying to tell you. I've tried to build this up as simply as I can now it is up to you to try and learn these underlying forms and features. You cannot just skip to the final picture you must know and understand how the figure is built and what it is capable of. You are stuck because you are not studying and you are only frustrating yourself by not pushing your knowledge further. I am trying to help you understand the importance of knowing these things but ultimately you will have to realize this for yourself, the only way to do that is to try and learn them yourself.

Anatomy is not something that applies to people alone it is in everything you see. For instance your front door is made up of parts, it has the frame, the hinge, the door itself, and the door handle. If you want to draw the door in any imaginable position you would have to understand how these parts relate to each other and how the door actually functions (hinge made of two parts, one on the door, one stationary on the wall.) The human body is a machine that is made up many parts that all fit together like a puzzle, if you don't know the pieces you wont be able to put it together at all. You say you want help and are considerate of critiques, well keep what people tell you in mind and start helping yourself. Get some books on anatomy. Study, learn, draw, repeat. You will get better but you have got to be willing. If you are having difficulty drawing something, then you try and learn how to draw it, there is no other way. We can give you all the advice in the world but we can't force you to learn something you don't want to.

[fukifino]

A) it was a quick sketch that I don't know how long it took because I wasn't timing myself. Ten minutes was a guess.


If you only spent 10 minutes on it, then why post it??? Look at the drawing. Step back and look at it objectively. Is it any good at all? Seriously. I'm not asking if it's better than drawings you made previously, I'm asking if it's good. Honestly, anyone with half a brain knows that answer is categorically NO.

So, if you spent 10 minutes on a drawing and you know it's not good, then why post it??? I'm having a really hard time understanding the rational behind it.

If you posted it for critiques and help, then I have to ask, why did you only spend 10 minutes on it? Going by the previous assumption that your smart enough to realize this drawing sucks (and let's be honest...it does), then why didn't you spend more than 10 minutes working on it? There is no magic wand someone's goign to wave and make you better. And dispite what you believe, making one hundred crappy 10 minute, no reference drawings will not make you better. Spend more time and stop posting your scribbles here. It doesn't do anyone any good.

At this point you can't even draw from a photo. I've seen you try and I've seen the results. OR maybe you can but you just throw lines down for 5 minutes instead of actually taking the time to see what's there and correct yourself.

So, to sum up:

Spend more time on your drawings.
Stop posting 10 minute doodles.
Learn to draw from life or from photos before you draw from imagination.
Until you can draw from life or a photo accurately, don't post your crappy ass drawings from imagination. Period.

[Groover McNab]

To the people that gave crits - You people are saints!!! But I think your time might be better spent giving crits to other forum members that are willing to learn and listen.

[StudioPC]

All I did to flesh that out was erase those lines indicating the individual muscles and put some nipples on his chest. Fleshing him out came from knowledge of the forms of the body that I have memorized. That is all there is to it. Try drawing the image I made yourself, do each step and make sure to use your basic forms, dont copy it in a 2d sort of way.

There is no other way to know these things besides to study them that is what everyone has been trying to tell you. I've tried to build this up as simply as I can now it is up to you to try and learn these underlying forms and features. You cannot just skip to the final picture you must know and understand how the figure is built and what it is capable of. You are stuck because you are not studying and you are only frustrating yourself by not pushing your knowledge further. I am trying to help you understand the importance of knowing these things but ultimately you will have to realize this for yourself, the only way to do that is to try and learn them yourself.

Anatomy is not something that applies to people alone it is in everything you see. For instance your front door is made up of parts, it has the frame, the hinge, the door itself, and the door handle. If you want to draw the door in any imaginable position you would have to understand how these parts relate to each other and how the door actually functions (hinge made of two parts, one on the door, one stationary on the wall.) The human body is a machine that is made up many parts that all fit together like a puzzle, if you don't know the pieces you wont be able to put it together at all. You say you want help and are considerate of critiques, well keep what people tell you in mind and start helping yourself. Get some books on anatomy. Study, learn, draw, repeat. You will get better but you have got to be willing. If you are having difficulty drawing something, then you try and learn how to draw it, there is no other way. We can give you all the advice in the world but we can't force you to learn something you don't want to.

I see what you're saying, I really do. Intellectually, I understand it just fine. Its in practice that I hit a wall.

[StudioPC]

If you only spent 10 minutes on it, then why post it??? Look at the drawing. Step back and look at it objectively. Is it any good at all? Seriously. I'm not asking if it's better than drawings you made previously, I'm asking if it's good. Honestly, anyone with half a brain knows that answer is categorically NO.

So, if you spent 10 minutes on a drawing and you know it's not good, then why post it??? I'm having a really hard time understanding the rational behind it.

If you posted it for critiques and help, then I have to ask, why did you only spend 10 minutes on it? Going by the previous assumption that your smart enough to realize this drawing sucks (and let's be honest...it does), then why didn't you spend more than 10 minutes working on it? There is no magic wand someone's goign to wave and make you better. And dispite what you believe, making one hundred crappy 10 minute, no reference drawings will not make you better. Spend more time and stop posting your scribbles here. It doesn't do anyone any good.

At this point you can't even draw from a photo. I've seen you try and I've seen the results. OR maybe you can but you just throw lines down for 5 minutes instead of actually taking the time to see what's there and correct yourself.

So, to sum up:

Spend more time on your drawings.
Stop posting 10 minute doodles.
Learn to draw from life or from photos before you draw from imagination.
Until you can draw from life or a photo accurately, don't post your crappy ass drawings from imagination. Period.


First off, it was a sketch and a sketch is defined as a quick drawing. As such, I posted it in the Sketches/works in progress forum. It got moved here.

Secondly, the ten minutes was a guess. I did not time myself. It could have been ten, or even fifteen or twenty minutes for all I know. I was trying not to pay attention to the passage of time so I wouldn't feel like I was under the gun.

Thirdly, I'm well aware I'm not Da Vinci and any of my friends will tell you that I wouldn't use my art for toilet paper at this stage. Its bad. I know its bad. But I am trying to change that..

The improvement is slow, but there. The most recent photo drawings compared to the first ones show a marked difference. I am learning, however slow.

In short, I am well aware that its not the greatest. The only way to improve is practice and critique and I know better then to critique my own work at this point.

[USER777]

Seriously, studio pc, if you are so much interested in arts why are you writing that much about your "improvement" and how much "fun it is to draw" and spending so little timing actually drawing..

I'm a beginner, too, and I understand that a website like ca.org can be very interesting for a guy like you and me because there is some very inspiring work up here but if you "can imagine that you will someday actually get money for your arts" you shouldn't answer every little bugging comment but stop posting here on ca.org and draw, draw, draw from life, draw simple forms like boxes and balls, study anatomy, proportions and so on...

Well, I think I'm wasting my time here anyway because you probably won't understand these words as you did understand none of the (helpful) critiques that people here gave you.

You said: "The only way to improve is practice and critique and I know better then to critique my own work at this point."

Well, all you're seeing here is helpful comments you could use to use ur time on those "10 minute sketches" more effectively but you're not!

You're only getting so much attention because you are the most stubborn person most people here have ever seen.

good nite.. :nohope:

Lim

[StudioPC]

You're only getting so much attention because you are the most stubborn person most people here have ever seen.

good nite.. :nohope:

Lim

People take the time to post a comment, its only fair that I take the time to respond to their comments.

And thanks for the compliment.

[killing.people]

great critic and advice 'some guy'

hello studiopc,
your response to some guy's comments confused me.

I see what you're saying, I really do. Intellectually, I understand it just fine. Its in practice that I hit a wall.

this was esentially what he was saying:
"There is no other way to know these things besides to study them that is what everyone has been trying to tell you."

the purpose of saying what he has said:
"You are stuck because you are not studying and you are only frustrating yourself by not pushing your knowledge further."

and to those that feel i am wasiting my time by replying:
"don't worry about it, i know how to wasit my own time"

if you wish to improve, you will not only HAVE to STUDY anatomy, but many other aspects of art. when people say, "it will not happen over night", in this case, they mean it.
expect to be noticably "decent" in one year of constant study and practice. if you refuse to study, do not expect any results. "simple as that".

-killing

[arghmisfit]

dude u should spend 99.99999999999999999% of ur time drawing and the remander replying to comments. >:D

[Woodrodius]

Just move on guys. It would be easier to teach a bag of hammers how to draw. This guy is nothing but excuses.

[rothgar]

StudioPC couple questions that I haven't bothered to dig out of your other threads:
How old are you?
How long have you been actively trying to draw/paint/etc?
How often do you practice drawing, and for how long each session?

Age often has nothing to do with the answers, but older people sometimes have more difficulty picking up new motor control skills like drawing.

If you are an absolute beginner to drawing, try to spend an hour or more per drawing, even if it is meant to be a sketch. As an art teacher at the middle school level the first thing I have to get the kids to do is spend their time on the work. In the end you'll be much happier with the results. Follow the advice that has been given in the past, like use reference, draw from life, etc. The Drah'n time threads are great because they provide not only great and varied reference but you can see how other artists assimilate what *they* see in the pictures.

Above all else remember that you are posting here to receive the criticism. Don't get pissed when they give it to you, *apply* what they say, or ask for them to explain it in another way to clarify.

[StudioPC]

great critic and advice 'some guy'

hello studiopc,
your response to some guy's comments confused me.



this was esentially what he was saying:
"There is no other way to know these things besides to study them that is what everyone has been trying to tell you."

the purpose of saying what he has said:
"You are stuck because you are not studying and you are only frustrating yourself by not pushing your knowledge further."

and to those that feel i am wasiting my time by replying:
"don't worry about it, i know how to wasit my own time"

if you wish to improve, you will not only HAVE to STUDY anatomy, but many other aspects of art. when people say, "it will not happen over night", in this case, they mean it.
expect to be noticably "decent" in one year of constant study and practice. if you refuse to study, do not expect any results. "simple as that".

-killing

Its not that. How to put this? I believe that there is more then one way to good art.

Yes, I need to practice more, never said otherwise. What I do take issue with is people hammering me with the obvious. You people never see the practice doodles that I wad up and toss away, for example. You never saw the horrendously bad drafts of the above. I do practice. Not as much as I could, perhaps, but I do.

[StudioPC]

dude u should spend 99.99999999999999999% of ur time drawing and the remander replying to comments. >:D

As I said above, you take the time to comment, its only fair that I take time to respond.

[StudioPC]

It would be easier to teach a bag of hammers how to draw.

. . .

You'd know, I'd pay to see that.

[StudioPC]

StudioPC couple questions that I haven't bothered to dig out of your other threads:
How old are you?
How long have you been actively trying to draw/paint/etc?
How often do you practice drawing, and for how long each session?

Age often has nothing to do with the answers, but older people sometimes have more difficulty picking up new motor control skills like drawing.

If you are an absolute beginner to drawing, try to spend an hour or more per drawing, even if it is meant to be a sketch. As an art teacher at the middle school level the first thing I have to get the kids to do is spend their time on the work. In the end you'll be much happier with the results. Follow the advice that has been given in the past, like use reference, draw from life, etc. The Drah'n time threads are great because they provide not only great and varied reference but you can see how other artists assimilate what *they* see in the pictures.

Above all else remember that you are posting here to receive the criticism. Don't get pissed when they give it to you, *apply* what they say, or ask for them to explain it in another way to clarify.

Yeah, the Drah'n time threads. And the DSB threads. I meant to participate in the latest Drah'n ones, even picked out the pics I wanted to use. Just haven't gotten around to it. And now that school's started again . . .

To answer your questions:
-Older then 20, less then 30.

-Most of my life. Taught myself by using books, websites, and magazine articles. I've taken classes, but I've found that don't particularly care for them because they feel too regimented and structured, for lack of a better term. On the other hand, they can take me much farther then books and whatnot and I know it. It's a sort of love/hate thing.

-If by session, you mean I sit down and spend a specific time period each day where I draw, then no. I do try to fill a page or so with doodles and drawings at least once a day, but whether or not I actually do that depends on reasons that I doubt will make any sense to anyone but me. When I do, and let me restate that I've never formally timed myself, anywhere from about ten minutes to half an hour. After that, I start to get tired and my arm gets sore.

[StudioPC]

If anyone cares, the final verson colored and all, is here.

http://aberdawnknights.keenspace.com/

[Cyrus]

You'd probably want to add some more shadows, highlights, and get rid of the line in the middle of the sword blade, which I assume indicates a change of planes in the sword, in which case your should just have the two tones on each side of the sword meeting directly instead of a black line that doesn't really exist–same goes for the outlines and the lines on the inside of their elbows and knees–look at the different values(how light and dark they are)and don't just use a thick black line to indicate shapes.

Proportionally, what stuck out most was that their eyes are uneven, you should be able to draw a straight line through the middle of each, and don't forget to add pupils. Also the shapes of the heads are wonky–the sides of their faces shouldn't cave in that much–try looking an example of a 3/4 view of a skull and identify where and how the brow and chin are protruding on the contour(outline). And their legs are too long(actually it would be better to say their bodies are too short, considering the size of their heads.)

One way to help with proportion is to take a point(for example the bottom of the brow ridge where it stops protruding from the skull in a 3/4 view) and find another landmark point which you've already drawn on the horizontal and vertical planes of that point(maybe the bottom of the eye and where the chin protrudes the farthest for example, depending on how exactly the head is angled.) Of course, you have to have a reference to establish this, but remember that most artists, even professionals, use references for alot of their work.

Perspective wise, you should work on the fore-shortening of their bent arms. Try taking a good look at your arm streched out at your eye-level, it should look much wider as it get closer; in yours the arms just look short, not because they're actually too short, they just stay relatively the same width as though they were just flat against the characters' sides.

I won't consider what you should do with the color at this point since you shouldn't be doing that yet, only because you should work on those other things more. You can draw a perfectly great figure without color.

As I said before in my last post, take as long as necessary to make the picture look right, it will most likely take longer than you think. I just spent an hour on a picture of a hand, getting the shapes and proportions right, and haven't even started shading it yet.

I tried to be as objective as possible, so I hope you consider these points and apply them to your next picture, or better yet, go back and make this one better.