Painter, Laptops & Wacom

[MGH]

Has anyone out there ever used their wacom tablet on a laptop (preferably Mac) to do work in Painter?
If so how did it perform?

[Deth Jester]

I have used my wacom 9x12 on my PC Laptop.. it is only a 700mhz with 256 ram Pc133... and a crappy video card..(used painter and photshop)... I found it to be a little too laggy at times for my tastes, when using really large brushes.. but for sketching it wasn't too bad... I think the one down side/upside was the monitor was smaller than my tablet so I could use big marks and get better detail.. but since the monitor was so crappy, I couldn't see the detail as well... *shrug*

I think if you have a Mac Titatinium (spelling) It should be pretty nice to work with..

Good Luck,

peace.

[biotron]

I've just purchased a Sony Vaio with a 16 inch screen and an ATI card for use with 3D apps, PS and Painter 6. The one problem I have is the touchpad software causing problems while using the wacom.

When I lay down a stroke and then lift the stylus up to establish a different stroke, it still wants to continue the previous one. Drives me crazy.

I had an older Vaio that I used to paint on and it worked fine.

[FONGOOL]

Is it possible to easily toggle the touchpad drivers on and off?

I'm looking to replace my desktop with a laptop (I love the idea of being able to cart my digital art "studio" around in a backpack), but I'm concerned about the quality of the monitors and driver issues with the Wacom exactly like what Biotron described.

Biotron, if you resolve this problem please message me or post here. I'm considering either a Dell Inspirion or the Vaio. The Vaio's are a few hundred dollars more expensive, but I like the slightly larger monitor and the DVD writer option...

If anyone else has any info or research to share about using laptops for digital painting, I'd be greatly interested in hearing about it!


Fongool

[biotron]

I'll let you know as soon as I figure out a solution, Fongool.

I do love the screen real estate, though!

[N3W8I3]

arent the tablet pc's screens done by wacom?
..
i use my ancient old baby vaio with painter,
and my tablet.. it works fine
... a little slow.. (*ok really slow*)
but for skething into i find it useful
batteries dont last long though:chug:

[FONGOOL]

I've read that the tablets aren't as responsive as a regular Wacom. Besides, I'd just get the screen all smudgy. ;P

[FONGOOL]

Just to keep this thread alive... :D

I installed photoshop 7 on the Dell Inspiron here at the office and saw the same preoblem, with notablet installed. If I used the touchpad, lines would continue to draw for a short time after the button was released...

I really want to upgrade my system to a laptop, but unless I can actually try drawing with a tablet on one and know it will be useful I just can't take the risk.

Again, if anyone out there is using a laptop with a wacom tablet and Photoshop/painter, I'd love to hear what hardware you're using and any information about drivers, operating systems and whatever so I can make the jump...

Thanks

[BenB]

I have a Dell Inspiron 8200 with the ultrasharp 15" screen and its freakin nice to look at. The default res is 1600x1200, so if you are going to run it lower than that, its blurry. LCDs are weird like that. But its crisp still and I have been very happy with it.

I haven't seen it get blurry either with fast motion.

[FONGOOL]

Do you use a Wacom with it? Photoshop/painter? :)

Yeah, those super sharp displays are very nice, the dell here at the office has one. I could easily work with one, just worried about the wacom conflicting with all the other pointing devices the laptops have to support.

[BenB]

I haven't tried yet. I use my tablet on my desktop. But I'll slap my tablet on to my notebook and let you know soon!

[biotron]

I think I resolved the problem with my setup.

In the synaptics touchpad properties dialog box I turned off the ClickLock feature. What it does is allow you to click and drag without holding down the mouse button, which seems to be a problem when using a Wacom.

I also disabled tap zones for the touchpad.

So far, so good. I'll let you know how it goes after some heavy usage.

[biotron]

Just wanted to post an update on my experience using the Sony Viao GRV550 with an intous tablet.

Since changing the parameters in the synaptics touchpad software option box, as I described above, it's been great. The only gripe I have now is when I pan, sometimes I have to lift the pen slightly higher before laying down my next stroke. It's not bad though. I'm really enjoying using Painter on my new laptop. The 16 inch screen rocks.

By the way, Maya runs pretty good, too.

[Jason Manley]

if you get a laptop for painting...make sure to get the top of the line...they come in xga? sxga? and uxga?

the U is the top of the line...closer to an actual monitor. the xga monitor on laptops has shit for color depth and while it will work you will have experience frusteration trying to readjust and calibrate the color on an actual monitor.



jason

[KChen]

I do all my photoshop, painter paintings on my powerbook Ti (800 mhz, 32 m video card) along with wacom tablet. I have no complaints on the color of the monitor, the color is very consistant with the apple flat pannel displays. As for softwares, Photoshop runs well on it but it lags a bit with Painter, especially larger brushes. I work around it by doing most of the painting in Photoshop first and finish it off with some Painter touches. There are also things you can play around in brush settings to speed up Painter, but it is still not ideal. The more recent powerbook has 1 G processor and 64 m Nvidia card, don't know if it helps speed things up a bit. Hope this will help.

[biotron]

The Viao GRV550 has a 2.4 ghz processor and a 32 meg ATI card, which gives me plenty of horsepower. The screen is an sxga running at 1280 x 1024 32bit.

[Jason Manley]

the sxga is usable...the xga is a joke...be careful.

get the uxga if you can...


Im officially on the lookout for a good one...will let ya know if i find one that is ideal for this stuff.


j

[MGH]

Thanks for keeping this alive guys. Some interesting feedback, even though most of it is from (GASP!) PC users. Actually I surprised that, from browsing through this forum the last couple of months, most of you guys are on PC as opposed to Mac. Although I'm relatively new to computers (5 or so years) I've always accepted the fact that anybody in the graphic arts used an Apple product. Anywho, that's a discussion for another thread.
As I said I'm somewhat new to computers (and I don't work in the gaming or movie biz) but what is xga, sxga and uxga?
I've tried Painter on a G4 400 MGZ Powerbook with the Intuos tablet. Although I accepted the less than perfect colour of a laptop I became frustrated as the brushes, especially the pencil, often lagged behind the curser. As I'm sure you can all understand this tended to through my whole drawing rhythm off.
I'm encoraged by KChen's report as I'm thinking of upgrading .

[biotron]

From whatis.techtarget.com

UXGA

UXGA (Ultra Extended Graphics Array) is a display mode in which the resolution is 1600 pixels horizontally by 1200 pixels vertically (1600 x 1200). This amounts to a total of 1,920,000 pixels on the screen.
A UXGA display might be preferred by computer users who want or need fine detail. UXGA displays also allow the user to specifiy up to four 800 x 600-pixel images at a time, with reasonable detail in each. An example of such an application is the reception of a television (TV) program while browsing the Web, and at the same time working in a word processor and a vector graphics program. Scientists and engineers can make use of the high resolution and large screen size when working with computer-aided graphics (CAD) programs, especially three-dimensional (3D) rendering.

A UXGA display provides 6.25 times as many pixels as a 640 x 480 display, four times as many pixels as an 800 x 600 display, and approximately 2.44 times as many pixels as a 1024 x 768 display. Modest-sized liquid crystal display (LCD) panels with the UXGA specification offer a level of detail comparable to print on paper. The main disadvantage of this type of display is the high cost compared with displays having less resolution.

[biotron]

I'm not having any problems with updating strokes in painter 6 or PS, MGH. My laptop is faster than my work machine with exception of the video card. Laptops have always lagged when it comes to video cards BUT if you're just using paint programs, than the newer models definitely have plenty of horsepower.

I used to be a mac user until I actually got a job in the game biz. Everyone was using 3d studio 4 DOS on pentium 133s.

[nuked rabbit]

I work 50% of my time on a mac laptop g3 500mhz and a intuos2.
The only soft running on it are Painter and Photoshop.

It works very well, almost never freez.
If you keep your files like 150/300 dpi and about 2200/1600 pixels, you can obtain a high speed while sketching (painter) or doing manips (PS).

[AJ]

Wow, this thread is old. I found it by googling while hanging in #conceptart on IRC.

I'm actually in the market for a laptop to use with my Wacom, but it's now late 2006. My specific concerns are weight and screen real estate. Since it will be my primary pc while travelling overseas, I'll want to be able to play games on it and use it as a media centre.

I've been looking at the Dell XPS range of Desktop Replacements, specifically the M1710. After going through the customisation section, I found that what I want will set me back about 3k. I'm starting my overseas exploits in the next 12 months and will need to be able to move around at short notice. I won't be lugging it around with me every day but will need to be able to take it places when necessary. Therefore I dunno if weight is that much of an issue, but a lot of people complain about it.

I plan to use Photoshop for illustration, along with Flash, Maya and After Effects for animation/compositing.

Anyone have any experiences or advice they can share?

Cheers

[ArtZealot]

i'm using a fujitsu laptop with " 17" Crystal View wide XGA+ TFT display; brightness 330 nits; contrast ratio 500:1" anyone have an opinion on that? i know jason said XGA sucks but does the "+TFT" added on redeem the fact that it's XGA?

[Fredbt]

Yes, this is an old thread. But then, I use an old 1999 Mac G4 titanium 500 MHz PowerBook for Painter demonstrations and it works like a charm. I haven't had a lag in real-time painting with Painter in years. I used to have it a lot in the early days of Fractal Design Painter, the first Wacom tablets and on much lower powered Macs. Happily, those days are history.

I'm enjoying my new 2.66 GHz, Intel dual core, Mac Pro and dual 23" Apple Cinema displays. I'd enjoy it even more if Painter 7 would work on it, but I haven't had any luck getting the brushes to apply paint. The mouse works, but not the Wacom pen. I love Painter 7, but may have to give it up for progress and much more screen real estate.

[Automatic Kafka]

Ive used my Acer 5024 (amd64 3000+, 1gb ram, ATI 128mb x700 mobile) with my Wacom intuos A4 for a year now and Ive never had any problems whatsoever.

The amount of lag when using larger brushes is the same as my stationary, which is significantly more powerful. You just cant use a siz 60+ brush on a 300dpi canvas and expect it to go smoothly

[Fredbt]

Since I usually paint at 150 to 200 dpi with large brushes and several layers without lag, I decided to do a test to determine when I would experience a lag in the brush. I couldn't create a brush lag with the airbrush set at the maximum brush size of 543. Then I tried the chalk at its maximum brush size of 749 - still no lag.

It really depends on the computer, amount of RAM, video RAM and the computer's processing power.

(Tested in Painter 8 with a Mac Pro with dual-core 2.66GHz Intel Xeon processors, 2 GB of RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT 256MB graphics card and 1GB of hard drive space.)

[Jin]

Fred,

The two brush variants you tested are from relatively simple brush categories.

Try using large size brush variants from the following more complex categories and tell us how it goes:

Impasto
Liquid Ink
Watercolor

[Automatic Kafka]

Since we're talking lag, what is the most important tech aspect when it comes to 2D painting? Having 512mb on my graphics card didnt seem to do anything.

[prcrash]

Since we're talking lag, what is the most important tech aspect when it comes to 2D painting? Having 512mb on my graphics card didnt seem to do anything.

RAM, RAM, and more RAM, after that, CPU.

Whenever your computer runs out of physical memory, it starts using parts of the hard drive as replacement memory, but every time it writes or reads from the hard drive, you're going to see some lag in Painter.

Also, the problem that most ppl in the start of this thread were having, is easily fixed by setting the option to turn off the touchpad on the laptop when another pointing device is connected. I have a Dell D810, and an Intuos3 6x8, and it works pretty good (The specs: Pentium M 1.68Mhz, 1GB Ram, ATI X600 128mb VRAM)

[Fredbt]

Jin, you made me curious since you named 3 brushes I never use. I do traditional watercolor painting and have never liked the look of Painter's watercolor. The same applies to the impasto brush. I just don't like the look of it. The liquid pen I have never tried until now.

Here is what I found in my tests at 300 dpi:

Liquid Ink - Coarse Camel
Very slight, hardly noticable lag at 45 pixel brush size when making a very fast swipe across the canvas. No lag when strokes are slow and deliberate. The way I normally paint. This also stayed constant with a 70 pixel brush.

Watercolor - Fine camel
Same results as above with both a 45 pixel brush and a 70 pixel one.

Impasto - Graphic Paintbrush
70 pixel brush had no lag at all, with a fast or slow stroke.

When I maxed out all three brush sizes at 749.9 pixels, here's what I found:

Liquid Ink: I was told I don't have sufficient memory for that operation.

Watercolor: A very slight, but noticable, lag in the stroke.

Impasto: No lag at all.

[ianthegeek]

I'm considering buying a laptop soon for use with programs like photoshop, painter and even flash. I'm not the richest person and i don't know alot about laptops so does anyone have any advice about what technological factors are the most/more important.

[prcrash]

I'm considering buying a laptop soon for use with programs like photoshop, painter and even flash. I'm not the richest person and i don't know alot about laptops so does anyone have any advice about what technological factors are the most/more important.

Like I said before, the more ram, the better. Try to get at least 1GB of ram, and if you can afford more, go crazy. Any modern low end CPU (The lower speed P4/Mobiles and Core Duo's and Core 2 Duo's are pretty cheap right now. The 6300 Core 2 Duo is around $189US) will work fine in 2d applications like Photoshop and Painter (mostly for filters, etc) and a mid range Video card (ati x600, x800 and Nvidia 7000 series, both for laptops) will work fine.

Here's an example...

View here (http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/inspn_1501?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&~tab=specstab)

This one is on the cheap, but with a dual core processor (athlon X2), 2gb Ram and a pretty good screen (1280x800) and for $550US, it's a pretty good deal for Photoshop/Painter work.

[Jin]

Hi Fred,

Inserted below is what I experienced on my system.

System specs:

WinXP Home SP2
Pentium 4
2.53 gHz
512 MB RAM
120 GB hard drive with about 73% free space


Jin, you made me curious since you named 3 brushes I never use. I do traditional watercolor painting and have never liked the look of Painter's watercolor. The same applies to the impasto brush. I just don't like the look of it. The liquid pen I have never tried until now.

Here is what I found in my tests at 300 dpi:

Liquid Ink - Coarse Camel
Very slight, hardly noticable lag at 45 pixel brush size when making a very fast swipe across the canvas. No lag when strokes are slow and deliberate. The way I normally paint. This also stayed constant with a 70 pixel brush.


Similar results with both brush sizes on a 650 x 650 pixel, 300 ppi image.


Watercolor - Fine camel
Same results as above with both a 45 pixel brush and a 70 pixel one.


Similar results with both brush sizes on a 650 x 650 pixel, 300 ppi image.


Impasto - Graphic Paintbrush
70 pixel brush had no lag at all, with a fast or slow stroke.


Similar results with both brush sizes on a 650 x 650 pixel, 300 ppi image.


When I maxed out all three brush sizes at 749.9 pixels, here's what I found:

Liquid Ink: I was told I don't have sufficient memory for that operation.


Same result.


Watercolor: A very slight, but noticable, lag in the stroke.


Considerable lag that would make me not want to work with such a large brush size. (I wouldn't in any case, work with the brush size maxed out since it's just too large to be useful even if it did render strokes quickly.)


Impasto: No lag at all.

After resizing the brush to maximum size, there was a long delay before I could use the Graphic Paintbrush variant. The stroke rendered reasonably fast, though there was lag at such a huge size.

After doing these tests with brush size maxed out, Painter IX.5 froze and I had to use Ctrl+Alt+Delete to close it.

I'm used to lag with extra large brush sizes, especially with more complex brush variants, due to having only 512 MB RAM and not as much processor speed as I'd like. I'm also not surprised to have Painter IX.5 freeze after pushing it by using maxed out brush sizes.

Were I to choose some of my more complex Liquid Ink, Watercolor and Impasto variants, the lag would be even more severe and it's likely I could not use these brush variants at maximum size (which, again, I wouldn't anyway).

An example is my custom Watercolor variant, WCDryCamel-antique-pool. While I was able to use brush sizes 45 and 70 with no lag, the largest brush size I was able to use today was 426. Though the actual painting of the brush stroke across the image was fairly fast, the larger the brush size, the longer it takes for the brush stroke to finish rendering (for the Watercolor Layer's water droplet to stop animating and the paint to "dry").

Here's a screen print to show the stroke before the water droplet icon stopped animating (using brush size 100), and after the brush stroke was completed:

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/WCDCap_lag_demo_at_size_100.jpg

At brush size 100, it took up to a minute before the brush stroke was completed and the water droplet icon stopped animating.

At brush size 426, it took several minutes (maybe 5 or 6 minutes) before the brush stroke was completed and the water droplet icon stopped animating.

We can blame my brush lag on not having a powerful enough system but I think that's not the answer for everyone. Many artists who have far more powerful systems than mine also complain about lag and overall slowdown when working on large images and using large brush sizes, especially with the more complex brush variants and even without multiple Layers added to the demands on system resources.

....................

[AJ]

Hi Jin,

Based on your system I would say that RAM is the biggest issue there. I would love to see a 2nd test of the same procedure above using 1024mb, and even another with 2gig.

People say that you can never have too much RAM, but I reckon there is a point where it becomes overkill. Unless you don't plan to upgrade much in the future.

[Jin]

Hi, AJ,

I don't know (or don't remember if you said earlier in this thread) what your system specs are, but you're more than welcome to download the custom Watercolor variant I used in the test and try it on your system.

It was designed in Painter 7 but it also works in Painter 8 and Painter IX (IX 9.1 and IX.5). Here's where you can download my WCDryCamel-antique-pool.xml file, the first one on the page:

Painter 7 Custom Water Color Brushes, by Jinny Brown and Friends (http://www.pixelalley.com/Painter7/painter7-water-color-brushes.html)

Click the link named Jin's 1st Brush - download .XML file .

Let us know how it goes, along with your system specs, so we can compare results.

.....................

[Fredbt]

I agree, Jin. I would never use a maximum sized brush for anything. I only did it as a test to see if it would blow up my computer. :xpld:

Below is an example of the type of paintings I do in Painter. This one was painted at the actual print size of 20 X 28 inches at 200 dpi in Painter 7. (I have my large, giclee prints made by an outside supplier).

I only used three brushes, as is my custom: The Oil Paint brush, Airbrush and Fine Dry Brush (for blending). These brushes were from Painter Classic version 1.0.1 and are, in my opinion, the very best brushes ever created for Painter. It's too bad I can no longer use Painter 7 and the brushes that worked so well for me for over 15 years.

http://fredtaylorart.com/madison.jpg

This detail will show the brush strokes and how much more "painterly" the art looks. When reduced for the web, the painting looks way smoother than it actually is.

http://fredtaylorart.com/madison_detail.jpg

[Jin]

Hi Fred,

Have you tried Importing the Painter Classic 1 brush library into your current Painter version? If not, try it and see if your favorite brush variants work as they did in Painter Classic 1.

Warning: Painter Classic 1 Water Color variants won't work the same in Painter 7 as they'll use the new Water Color brush technology. In Painter 8 and Painter IX, they'll use Method: Digital Wet and work like Digital Watercolor.

The other brush variants you mentioned may work as you want them too, the same as they did in Painter Classic 1.

In case you don't know how to Import the brush library:

1. Make a copy of the Painter Classic 1 brush library file and rename the copy, Painter Classic 1 Brushes (Mac) or Painter Classic 1 Brushes.BRS (Windows).

2. In Painter 7 (or your current Painter version), click the Load Library command.

3. Click the Import button.

4. Navigate to the folder whare your Painter Classic 1 Brushes.BRS file is located, highlight the file, then click the Open button.

5. Wait while Painter 7, Painter 8, or Painter IX (IX 9.1 or IX.5) converts the brush library .BRS file to folders and files and places them in the appropriate locations.

6. When the Imported brush library name appears in the Brush Libraries list, highlight it and click the Load button. Now the Painter Classic 1 Brushes library is loaded and ready to use.

.............................

[Fredbt]

Hi, Jin.

Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving.

I have been importing my old Painter Classic brushes into each upgrade of Painter from Painter 3 to Painter 7 and making them my default set. I used no other brushes and almost felt silly upgrading except for improvements in layers, etc.

Everything worked perfectly, and although Painter 7 was the first version to change the make up of the brush files, they still worked. They went from a single icon entitled, "Painter Classic Brushes" to a folder full of of .xml files with .jpg picture files of the brush shapes. That was fine. I didn't care what they became on the hard drive as long as they worked.

They are currently my default set in Painter 7 on both my Mac older G4 PowerBook and my new Mac Pro computer. They work as usual on the PowerBook and almost normally on the Mac Pro - EXCEPT they won't apply any paint on the Mac Pro. It has to be a problem with the Intel processor on the newer Mac Pro computer since that is the only difference that I know of.

Those same Painter Classic brushes will not import into Painter 8 nor Painter 9. I get an error message that says: "Can not open an empty brush file." Or something to that effect. Don't remember the exact wording.

To add to my woes, the Wacom pen isn't as accurate on the MacPro as it has always been. I can't do anything with detail because of the pen's behavior. Before, it was always like painting and drawing with natural media. It just felt completely natural and normal to paint in Painter. Now, everything I attempt looks like a very young, beginner's (who isn't even an artist) efforts.

Very, very frustrating!
:[

[dodus]

Fredbt:

Something in your last post about the way the Wacom behaves on the MacPro leads me to believe we might be having the same problem. Here's a link to my thread on the problem:

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82575

I don't know if this is what you were referring to, but I can't do any kind of detail line work because of how the media goes down in stroke form--really jagged--and it definitely gives it that "amateur" feel even on the most painstakingly rendered drawings.

[Fredbt]

http://fredtaylorart.com/linetest2.jpg

Not exactly that. My lines aren't jagged. I just can't place them exactly where I want them. That makes it very difficult to do my realistic painting style.

I only saw the problem I'm having once before. That was many years ago with my first Wacom tablet. The early very tablets weren't as accurate as they are today.

I hope both of us can figure out our problems. Sure makes it hard to paint anything. :(

[dodus]

Rub my face in your ability to draw smooth lines why don't you! :P


I hope both of us can figure out our problems. Sure makes it hard to paint anything. :(

Word. I just want to paint. Best of luck to you!

[Jin]

Hi, Jin.

Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving.


Thanks! I did have a nice Thanksgiving and hope you did too.


I have been importing my old Painter Classic brushes into each upgrade of Painter from Painter 3 to Painter 7 and making them my default set. I used no other brushes and almost felt silly upgrading except for improvements in layers, etc.

Everything worked perfectly, and although Painter 7 was the first version to change the make up of the brush files, they still worked. They went from a single icon entitled, "Painter Classic Brushes" to a folder full of of .xml files with .jpg picture files of the brush shapes. That was fine. I didn't care what they became on the hard drive as long as they worked.

They are currently my default set in Painter 7 on both my Mac older G4 PowerBook and my new Mac Pro computer. They work as usual on the PowerBook and almost normally on the Mac Pro - EXCEPT they won't apply any paint on the Mac Pro. It has to be a problem with the Intel processor on the newer Mac Pro computer since that is the only difference that I know of.

Those same Painter Classic brushes will not import into Painter 8 nor Painter 9. I get an error message that says: "Can not open an empty brush file." Or something to that effect. Don't remember the exact wording.


Import is used to convert older version brush libraries for use in Painter 7, Painter 8, and Painter IX (IX 9.1 and IX.5).

Once the Metacreations Painter Classic 1 PClassic.BRS brush library file has been converted for use in Painter 7 (converted to folders and files and all folders and files placed by Painter 7 in the correct locations), that brush library doesn't need to be Imported again into Painter 8 or Painter IX (IX 9.1 and IX.5).

Here's how I did it:

I renamed a copy of the Metacreations Painter Classic 1 default brush library from PClassic.BRS to Metacreations_PClassic.BRS, then Imported it into Painter 7.

Next, I moved a copy of the converted brush library folder (converted by Painter 7 to folders and files) from the following Painter 7 folder location...

From Painter 7

Program Files > Painter 7 > Brushes > Metacreations_PClassic

...into the following locations for Painter 8 and Painter IX:

To Painter 8

Program Files > Corel > Corel Painter 8 > Brushes > Metacreations_PClassic

To Painter IX (IX 9.1 or IX.5)

Program Files > Corel > Corel Painter IX > Brushes > Metacreations_PClassic

Launch Painter 8 and load the Metactreations_PClassic brush library.

Launch Painter IX (IX 9.1 or IX.5) and load the Metacreations_PClassic brush library.

Everything should work pretty much the same except for Water Color variants because they'll use the new Watercolor brush technology in Painter 7, Painter 8, and Painter IX (IX 9.1 and IX.5).

NOTE: When loading the Metacreations_PClassic brush library into Painter IX, I got some error messages related to the Pencils' Thick & Thin Pencil variant. I clicked the OK button until the errir messages stopped appearing and the rest of the brush library seems to be OK (didn't check all brush variants, though). If you get that error message too, you can just replace the Pencils' Thick & Thin Pencil variant with one from the default Painter IX brush library.


....................

[Fredbt]

Jin, I hate to be such a pain. I've looked into Painter 8's brushes and found hundreds of them that don't load when I launch the application. In the brushes folder there are two folders: Brushes and Painter Brushes. There is also a text file named, Pre-Built Brush File. Only a few of the brushes in the Painter Brushes folder load. None of those in the Brushes folder load.

There are 52 variants of the Palette Knife, yet only 16 of them load when I launch the application. They are all in the same folder. To make it worse, 15 of them are the same, just different sizes! It's the same with all other brushes; many varieties, but very few of them load.

When I go to "Load Brushes" it won't let me load anything. I can see them, but the "Open" button is grayed out.

I quit Painter 8 and tried taking one brush out of the Brushes folder and putting it in the Painter Brushes folder to see if it would show up. The application suddenly quit each time I tried to launch it until I removed that brush - then it launched as usual. Boy, it didn't like that!

It's late now, but tomorrow I'll follow your instructions to see if I can get any other brushes to load. It sure doesn't look promising, though.

Thanks for all of your help. I hope you can hang in there with me until this mess is resolved. I'm beginning to hate Painter. Until about a month ago, I loved it!

[Jin]

Jin, I hate to be such a pain. I've looked into Painter 8's brushes and found hundreds of them that don't load when I launch the application. In the brushes folder there are two folders: Brushes and Painter Brushes. There is also a text file named, Pre-Built Brush File. Only a few of the brushes in the Painter Brushes folder load. None of those in the Brushes folder load.

There are 52 variants of the Palette Knife, yet only 16 of them load when I launch the application. They are all in the same folder. To make it worse, 15 of them are the same, just different sizes! It's the same with all other brushes; many varieties, but very few of them load.

When I go to "Load Brushes" it won't let me load anything. I can see them, but the "Open" button is grayed out.

I quit Painter 8 and tried taking one brush out of the Brushes folder and putting it in the Painter Brushes folder to see if it would show up. The application suddenly quit each time I tried to launch it until I removed that brush - then it launched as usual. Boy, it didn't like that!

It's late now, but tomorrow I'll follow your instructions to see if I can get any other brushes to load. It sure doesn't look promising, though.

Thanks for all of your help. I hope you can hang in there with me until this mess is resolved. I'm beginning to hate Painter. Until about a month ago, I loved it!

Hi Fred,

Take a good look at this path that ends at the folder used to contain all brush library folders and the Pre-built Brush File, the Brushes folder.

Windows - Program Files\Corel\Corel Painter 8\Brushes

Mac - /Applications/Corel Painter 8/Brushes

Inside that folder is the default Painter 8 Painter Brushes brush library folder and any extra brush libraries you've added (or not).

Now the path looks like this, going down one more level and ending at the default Painter 8 Painter Brushes brush library folder:

Windows - Program Files\Corel\Corel Painter 8\Brushes\Painter Brushes

Mac - /Applications/Corel Painter 8/Brushes/Painter Brushes

Again, the only things you should find in the Brushes folder are brush library folders and the Pre-built Brush File.

The Pre-built Brush File is used to store brush information to make brush building faster (Painter has to build the brush before we can use it). Once that information has been stored in the Pre-built Brush File for a specific brush, Painter can just refer to that file and brush building (of that brush) is now faster than it was the first time. The Pre-built Brush File can grow very large, very fast depending on the brushes being used. When it gets too large, it can slow down Painter's performance, so many of us got in the habit of deleting the Pre-built Brush File after each Painter session. No harm is done if it's deleted because Painter will automatically generate a new Pre-built Brush File the next time Painter is launched.

Now to explain what all those files you see in the Palette Knives brush category folder really are:

Since a picture is worth a thousand words, here's one that should help. Below the image I'll explain what each of the color-marked file types is and how it's used.

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/P8_palette_knives_files.jpg

The files highlighted in red are the NIB and STK files automatically created by Painter 8 and used in Painter 8 to display the brush nib and brush stroke in the Tracker palette and in the Brush Selector Bar's brush variant list where you can choose to display the brush variants in one of three ways: List, Thumbnails, or Stroke. The default display is List and when that's the way the brush variants are displayed, you see the brush nib image to the left and the brush variant name to the right.

The 16 files highlighted in yellow are the default brush variant files you see listed in the Brush Selector Bar's brush variant list when the Palette Knives brush category is selected.

Notice that there's a NIB file and a STK file for each of the default brush variant XML files and they have the same names as their associated default brush variant XML files except the extension is either .NIB or .STK.

The file highlighted in blue, named CategoryData.xml is another one that's automatically created by Painter 8 and it's used to store information as to the currently selected brush variant.

The file highlighted in green is a cached brush variant file, automatically created by Painter 8 and used to store temporary user settings made to the default brush variant. In this case, the default brush variant I selected and used was the Palette Knife.xml brush variant. The cached variant has the same file name except the file name is preceded by c_ so the full file name is c_Palette Knife.xml. When we restore the brush variant to its default state (Brush Selector menu > Restore Default Variant), Painter 8 automatically deletes that cached variant and Painter 8 again takes its instructions from the default brush variant file.

Some brush categories contain brush variants that also have associated JPG files with the same names as the default brush variants. These are Captured Dab brush variants. Their brush dabs are based on images, thus the associated JPG files. A good example is the Artist's brush category where two of the brush variants are Captured Dab variants, the Sargent Brush and Impressionist variants. Another example is the Chalks brush category that contains three Captured Dab variants, Square Chalk 35, Square Chalk, and Variable Chalk, all of which have associated Captured Dab JPG image files. These Captured Dab JPG image files must remain with their default brush variant .XML files so those Captured Dab variants will work in Painter.

Now you know the 16 Palette Knives variants you see listed in the Brush Selector Bar's brush variant list are the only brush variants in that brush category, so you're not missing anything.

The reason you counted 52 files in the Palette Knives brush category folder is probably due to there being more cached variants than there were in my Palette Knives brush category folder. If I continued using other Palette Knives variants, there would be more cached variants added to that folder, until I restored all brush variants in the currently loaded brush library to their default state (Brush Selector menu > Restore All Default Variants) and all of those cached variants would be automatically deleted by Painter.


When I go to "Load Brushes" it won't let me load anything. I can see them, but the "Open" button is grayed out.


The command is Brush Selector menu > Load Library.

When you use that command, the Brush Libraries dialog box opens displaying a list of all brush libraries in your Corel Painter 8 > Brushes folder that are available to Load and use in Painter 8. In order to Load one of those brush libraries, you need to highlight the brush library name, then click the Load button (there is no Open button).

If you want to Import a brush library from Painter 6 or an earlier version, you'll first need to click the Brush Libraries dialog box Import button, navigate to the older version .BRS brush library file, highlight the file name, click the Open button, then wait while Painter 8 converts the single .BRS brush library file to folders and files and places them in the correct locations. When the brush library name appears in the Brush Libraries list, highlight it and click the Load button.


............................

[Fredbt]

Jin: Thanks so much for the effort you put forth in trying to help me resolve this frustrating problem. That takes time and I do appreciate it.

I went through all that you outlined here and none of it works for me. I renamed my Painter Classic Brushes, as you show, and tried to get them to open in Painter 8 and 9.

This error message came up each time:
The brushes are read only and cannot be opened.

Once, I even got this message:
The directory "Brushes" could not be found within the application directory. Please select your Painter Brushes file so I can create one.

I did that and got the same message again:
The brushes are read only and cannot be opened.

I noticed that neither version of Painter created the .stk nor the .nib files needed for the brushes. They still only have the .xml files. One error message mentioned that the additional files needed weren't found. I assume it means the .stk and .nib. They weren't in the Painter Classic brush folder and they weren't created by the later versions of Painter.

I would be so happy if somebody could tell me how I can toss every brush in either Painter 8 or 9 and replace them all with just these five things from my old Painter Classic set :

1. Oil Paint brush

2. Airbrush

3. Palette Knife - Fine Dry Brush

4. 2B Pencil

5. Eraser

That is really all I want and all I need to do what I want to do. Those items are all I've ever used anyway. They used to open just fine in Painter 7 and were my default brush set. All of the rest is just wasted on me and gets in my way.

How can I make these few brushes from my old set work? How do they get the necessary additional .stk and .nib files if the application doesn't make them? Are there people somewhere who could take these brushes and re-create them so they work? I'm at my wits end.

Thanks again, Jin.

[Jin]

Hi Fred,

No one can give you these files since they're part of the Painter program installation and covered by the License Agreement.

However, I can write you step by step instructions to get the brush variants you want that are currently available to you in Painter 7, into Painter 8 and Painter IX.

I won't be able to do that until some other things are finished up but will try to write the instructions as soon as possible, hopefully later today or tomorrow.

What I'm guessing is happening is that one or more of the necessary files are not being moved to Painter 8 or Painter IX. That happens frequently with people who haven't yet learned how to manage Painter 7, Painter 8, and Painter IX brushes. Don't feel bad. It's complicated and confuses the best of us!

Take a deep breath and I think we'll be able to solve your problem.


.......................................

[Fredbt]

Thanks, Jin. Anything you can do to help is greatly appreciated.

[Jin]

Fred,

Save a copy of this message to your hard drive (or print it). Take time to read through the entire message carefully. Then don't rush yourself, but follow each step exactly, and I think you'll be back in business again.

Here's a brief overview of what you'll need to do in order to have your favorite brush variants available to use in Painter 8 and Painter IX (I'll write the detailed steps below this overview):

Create a new folder to use as a brush library folder
Create a brush category folder.
Create a brush category JPG icon image file that must be exactly 30 x 30 pixels.
Copy all of the Painter Classic brush variants you want to use, from your Painter 7 > Brushes folder.
Paste the copied brush variant files into your new brush category folder.
Copy your new brush library folder and paste it into the Painter 8 > Brushes folder and the Painter IX > Brushes folder.


1. In your file manager, create a new empty folder somewhere outside of the Painter Classic 1, Painter 7, Painter 8, and Painter IX application/program folders. For this demonstration, I created a new folder named For Fred in the root folder on my C: \ drive:

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/for_fred_folder.jpg

2. Inside that folder, create another new folder. This will be your new brush library folder. Name this new brush library folder My Favorite Brushes.

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/my_favorite_brushes_library_folder.jpg

3. Inside your My Favorite Brushes brush library folder, create another new folder. This will be your new brush category folder.

4. Name your new brush category folder My Favorite Variants.

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/my_favorite_variants_category_folder.jpg

5. Launch Painter 7 and create a 30 x 30 pixel image to use as your new brush category folder's .JPG icon image file. Here's the one I created for this demonstration and you're welcome to use it if you want, though I'm sure you can create something more to your liking:

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/My Favorite Variants.jpg

6. Save the 30 x 30 pixel icon image in JPG format to your new brush library folder My Favorite Brushes, using the same name as your new brush category folder but add the .JPG extension at the end so the icon image file name is:

My Favorite Variants.jpg

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/my_favorite_variants_category_icon.jpg


7. Go to the Painter 7 application/program folder, then locate your favorite brush variant .XML files.

8. One at a time, copy all of your favorite brush variant .XML files.

9. Go back to your new brush category folder, My Favorite Variants and, one at a time, paste your copied favorite brush variant .XML files into that new brush category folder.

NOTES:

Since your list of favorite brush variants didn't specify the Airbrush variant and Eraser variant by their exact names, for this demonstration, I moved a copy of the Airbrush's Medium Stroke variant and the Eraser's Medium Bleach variant into the My Favorite Variants brush category folder. If those are not the variants you want, you can move a copy of the appropriate variants into the My Favorite Variants brush category folder instead.

Also, the Palette Knives' Fine Dry Brush variant is a Captured Dab variant so I moved both the Fine Dry Brush.xml file and its associated Captured Dab JPG image file named Fine Dry Brush.jpg into the My Favorite Variants brush category folder.

10. Now you should have a brush library folder named My Favorite Brushes. Inside that brush library folder, you should have another folder, your new brush category folder named My Favorite Variants, and a .JPG brush category icon image file named My Favorite Variants.jpg. Inside the brush category folder, you should have all of your favorite brush variant .XML files plus one JPG Captured Dab image file named Fine Dry Brush.jpg associated with (and necessary) for the Fine Dry Brush variant.

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/my_favorite_variants_xml_and_jpg_files.jpg

11. Highlight and copy the brush library folder named My Favorite Brushes.

12. Paste the copied My Favorite Brushes brush library folder into the following folder for Painter 8 then Painter IX:

Painter 8

Mac - /Applications/Corel Painter 8/Brushes

Windows - \Program Files\Corel\Corel Painter 8\Brushes

Painter IX

Mac - /Applications/Corel Painter IX/Brushes

Windows - \Program Files\Corel\Corel Painter IX\Brushes

13. Launch Painter 8, go to the Brush Selector menu, and choose Load Library. In the Brush Libraries list, highlight My Favorite Brushes, then click the Load button. Now your favorite brush library is loaded and ready to use in Painter 8.

14. Launch Painter IX, go to the Brush Selector menu, and choose Load Library. In the Brush Libraries list, highlight My Favorite Brushes, then click the Load button. Now your favorite brush library is loaded and ready to use in Painter IX.


.......................

[Fredbt]

Well, Jin, what can I tell you? I did it all exactly as you outlined the procedure. I printed the four pages of text, with your pictures, and went all the way through it, step by step. Here is what happened:

First, I made the folders as you instructed. (Separated here to show how they were nested.)

http://fredtaylorart.com/nested_folders.jpg

Then, I put all the brush files and .jpgs into the My Favorite Variants folder. (I added a few more than I mentioned as you can see, but what th' hey?)

http://fredtaylorart.com/fav_variants.jpg

Then I launched Painter 8 and went to Load Library

http://fredtaylorart.com/load_library.jpg

There, I saw My Favorite Brushes.

http://fredtaylorart.com/brush_libraries.jpg

Selecting that and clicking Load produced this rather dismal message:

http://fredtaylorart.com/read_only.jpg

Did I do something wrong? If I did, please point it out. I don't mind. I'll do anything to get this thing working!!!

Could it be that the brushes lack the .nib and .stk files? I noticed that the additional set of brushes that never opens in Painter 8 also lacks the .nib and .stk files. If I attempt to load those brushes, I get the message below and they won't open either:

http://fredtaylorart.com/no_varients.jpg

Groan!

[Jin]

Fred,

I don't know why you're getting the error message saying the files are read only, but do see some things in your screen print that don't look right and that may be the only error message Painter can figure out to use in an instance where the user has placed files in the wrong locations:

The following four files should not be inside your My Favorite Variants brush category folder, as they're JPG brush category icon image files:

Airbrush.jpg - This is the JPG brush category icon image file for the Airbrush brush category.

Brush.jpg - This is the JPG brush category icon image file for the Brush brush category.

My Favorite Variants.jpg - This is the JPG brush category icon image file for your My Favorite Variants brush category.

Palette Knives.jpg - This is the JPG brush category icon image file for the Palette Knives brush category.

NOTE: Both brush category folders and their associated JPG brush category icon image files must be at the same level, inside the brush library folder.

Only if you plan to have all four of those brush category folders (Airbrush, Brush, My Favorite Variants, and Palette Knives) in your My Favorite Brushes brush library will these files need to be located inside the My Favorite Brushes brush library folder, along with their associated brush category folders.

Since the only brush category folder in your My Favorite Brushes brush library is the My Favorite Variants brush category, the only one of these JPG files that's needed is the My Favorite Variants.jpg file.

In your My Favorite Variants brush category folder, delete the following JPG brush category icon image files:

Airbrush.jpg
Brush.jpg
Palette Knives.jpg

Then move the My Favorite Variants.jpg brush category icon image file out of the My Favorite Variants brush category folder and into the My Favorite Brushes brush library folder as shown in the screen print from my previous message:

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/my_favorite_variants_category_icon.jpg


The following file is missing its associated .XML brush variant file:

Palette Knife.jpg - This is only half of the pair of files needed to make the Palette Knife brush variant work. It's the JPG Captured Dab image file for the associated .XML brush variant file, Palette Knife.xml. You need to have both of these files in your My Favorite Variants brush category folder since the Palette Knife.xml brush variant is a Captured Dab variant for which the brush dab is based on an image. If one of the two files is missing, the brush variant won't work and it may also prevent loading the brush library properly.


As I explained earlier, several files are automatically generated by Painter so you don't need to worry about them or do anything with them. These files are:

CategoryData.xml (used to store information as to the currently selected brush variant

.NIB files (used to display the brush nib inside Painter)

.STK files (used to display the brush stroke inside Painter)

.XML files for which the file name is preceded by c_ (cached brush variants used to store temporary user settings made to the brush variant)


.......................................

[Fredbt]

As I explained earlier, several files are automatically generated by Painter so you don't need to worry about them or do anything with them. These files are:

CategoryData.xml (used to store information as to the currently selected brush variant

.NIB files (used to display the brush nib inside Painter)

.STK files (used to display the brush stroke inside Painter)

.XML files for which the file name is preceded by c_ (cached brush variants used to store temporary user settings made to the brush variant)



I've done all you've told me, Jin, and none of it works. There are so many things that just don't make sense to me. I worked around the "read only" error and got the brushes to open, (Using the "Get Info" on my Mac - "Properties" on a PC) but since they have no nib or stroke files, they don't work. I can create a brush for my palette knife using a charcoal nib and stroke file (for example) and save it as that, but all I have is another charcoal brush not a palette knife. Below is how my Painter Classic palette knife looks when opened:

http://fredtaylorart.com/palette_knives.jpg
Completely useless.

The really screwy thing to me is, I have the extra Painter brushes that came on the second CD with Painter 8 installed and they only have .xml files. Because of that, I still get the message shown below when I try to open them:

http://fredtaylorart.com/no_varients.jpg

Why would they put the extra brushes on the CD without including the nib and stroke variant files? Painter does not create these files automatically, or at least I don't know how to get the program to do it. The extra brushes came with the program. They should work without any action on my part, but they don't. Why?

I hate to take any more of your time, Jin. I appreciate all you've done to help me. I feel that there has to be an answer to this problem and it's probably a simple one, but I just don't know what it is.

Seems all I have learned is that Painter 7 didn't need nib and stroke files for the brushes and Painter 8 and 9 do need them. Hence, I can't load old Painter Classic brushes, or even the extra ones that came with Painter 8.

Perhaps I should go to the dreaded last resort and read the manual. :\

[Jin]

Hi Fred,

I think what's missing is that you don't understand the Painter 7, Painter 8, and Painter IX brush folder and file structure.

It's basically this:

Brush Library (folder)
...Brush Category (folder inside the brush library folder)
...Brush Category JPG icon image file (with the same name as the associated brush category folder, also inside the brush library folder)
......Brush Variant XML files (inside the brush category folder)
......JPG Captured Dab image files (inside the brush category folder, only if there are Captured Dab variants in the brush category)

As you can see above, for a brush library to load and work in Painter 7, Painter 8, or Painter IX, there must be a brush library folder.

Inside the brush library folder, there must be at least one brush category folder and a JPG brush category icon image file with the same name as the brush category folder.

Inside the brush category folder, there must be at least one XML brush variant file and if it's a Captured Dab brush variant, also a JPG Captured Dab image file with the same name as the XML Captured Dab brush variant file.


On Painter 8 CD 2, when you open the Brushes folder, you'll see a list of other folders, all of which are brush library folders:

CPainter8CD2
...Brushes
......Calligraphic Brushes
......Effects 1
......Effects 2
......Fun Brushes
......F-X
......Gooey
......Graphic Design 1
......Graphic Design 2
......Impasto
......Mouse
......Nature Brushes
......New Paint Tools
......Painter 5 Brushes
......Painter 6 Water Color
......Photo
......Stitch
......String Brushes
......WebMedia Brushes
......Wet on Wet Brushes


Using the Painter 5 Brushes library and only one brush category (Artists) as an example, there are 7 brush variants in the Artists brush category, one of which is a Captured Dab variant so there's also an associated JPG Captured Dab image file in the brush category folder:

CPainter8CD2
...Brushes
......Painter 5 Brushes (brush library folder)
.........Artists (brush category folder)
.........Artists.jpg (brush category JPG icon image file)
............Auto Van Gogh.xml (brush variant file)
............Flemish Rub.xml (brush variant file)
............Impressionist.xml (brush variant file)
............Piano Keys.jpg (Captured Dab JPG image file)
............Piano Keys.xml (Captured Dab brush variant file)
............Seurat.xml (brush variant file)
............Van Gogh 2.xml (brush variant file)
............Van Gogh.xml (brush variant file)


Since it probably contains all of your favorite brush variants....

To use the Painter 5 Brushes library in Painter 8 highlight the Painter 5 Brushes folder on Painter 8 CD 2 and copy it.

Paste the copied Painter 5 Brushes folder into the following folder on your hard drive:

Mac - /Applications/Corel Painter 8/Brushes

Windows - Program Files\Corel\Corel Painter 8\Brushes

Launch Painter 8, in the Brush Selector menu, choose Load Library. The Brush Libraries dialog box opens. Highlight Painter 5 Brushes, then click the Load button. Now the Painter 5 Brushes brush library is loaded and ready to use in Painter 8.

You do not need to worry about NIB and STK files. As long as you've placed the appropriate folders and files in the correct locations, you'll be able to load the brush library, use the brush variants, and Painter 8 will automatically generate the CategoryData.xml, NIB files, STK files and any needed cached brush variant files (ones for which the file name is preceded by c_ when you select a brush variant and use it.

Try following these instructions only, to use the Painter 5 Brushes brush library from Painter 8 CD2, without adding anything else to the mix, and I think you'll find it works and you'll at least have had one success. Then in time it will become more familiar and you won't have all these problems.

If it's still unclear, all I can suggest is to study the folder and file structure for the default Painter 8 Painter Brushes brush library to see how those folders and files are arranged.

[Fredbt]

Happy Days are Here Again!
Thanks for all the help, Jin. I finally got it through my thick skull how brushes are supposed to work. That's part of the good news.

The bad news is that it sorta' worked, but not really. I kept getting error messages and a few of the brushes that would open had variants they shouldn't have had. Example: the 2B pencil made strokes from the impressionist brush! To add to my aggravation, the error messages (see below) came up each time I selected a brush. The brush would finally build, but most didn't work as they should, and they had no nib size showing in the brush palette. I tried the Fun brushes and several other sets. Only a few of them worked properly, and even those had to go through the error messages each time they were selected.

It appears I had corrupt files. Also, Painter 8 suddenly quit a couple of times during this process.

http://fredtaylorart.com/error01.jpg

http://fredtaylorart.com/error02.jpg

http://fredtaylorart.com/error03.jpg

Since waiting for a brush to be built every time it was selected, and then not do what it was intended to do, was such a pain, I went digging through my backup files looking for a copy of the original, never converted Painter Classic brushes to see if that would work.

The rest of the good news: To my surprise, I found an old set of Intous brushes that are the same brushes as my old Painter Classic set. I have no memory of these Intous brushes. They must have been included in a Wacom tablet purchase at some point.

Be that as it may, they are exact duplicates of the Painter Classic brushes I've always used.

I dragged a copy of that set into the brushes folder of Painter 8 and they work!!!

All is well that ends well. Thanks again, Jin.

[Fredbt]

I've tried these Intous brushes in my trial version of Painter IX and they work there, too. (Does a happy dance!)

Thanks again.