Ringling School/ Florida

[Buffalo]

Hey All,

I noticed many of the people who post here attended Ringling School of Art in Florida. I'm thinking of going back to school for illustration (only 23 mind you). I'd really like to find a school that will not only help my drawing but also really emphasize/incorportate the computer as well. I'd like to stay in state, and Ringling seems like the best place down here. Anyone who's attended Ringling have any advise?

I'd welcome out of state suggestions as well. All you Art Center students are doing some killer stuff!

By the way I love the site. I found it yesterday and I'm continually amazed with every click. Thanks!

The Buffalo- flabberghasting the flabby

[Pavlovich]

i'm attending ringling as a computer animation student, but i have several friends who are in illustration, graphic design, and fine arts. basically, because this school is ungodly expensive, the only reason to come here would be the CA department (its more difficult to get into, but they get first dibs on the cash flow and thus have superior equipment/faculty/etc...); the illustration department is good, but i dont think it is as good as what you'll end up paying for. i had a friend who spent their core year here(freshman year that all majors go through unless you have some serious transfer credits) but ended up going to art center in cali. as far as the illustration department goes...or for any other major i guess, is that you'll get out of it what you put in; if you're hard worker and go as far as to sit in on as many upper level classes as you can manage, then you'll come out a badass...whatever. the only thing about the ringling illustration department is that it is kind of...the 'default' major; as in, incoming students that dont know what they want to do when they grow up (astronaut, fireman) all end up in illustration, which means you'll probably end up in a bunch of classes with (believe it or not) people that cant draw and furthermore dont have any interest in drawing. dont get me wrong, there are some extremely good illustration students here, along with a very skilled faculty, but percentage-wise its mostly a bunch of losers. i work out with one of the illustration teachers (shawn barber; http://www.sdbarber.com/ ) and he is one of the hardest working people i have ever met in my life, and is also one of the most talented. but he is one of a few, and if they keep over-filling the illustration classes with gigantic incoming freshman, well, its only going to get harder for the faculty to actually help the students, and its going to water down even further the good student:worthless student ratio. if you have to come to ringling, you might as well be CA since it is seriously the only major worth a damn here (dont even get me STARTED on the graphic design or fine arts losers...which unfortunately make up about 90% of my friends. they love when i dog gic). so, be CA, and if you have extra time (which you wont but we can pretend) sit in or take some upper level illustration classes.

hope this helps, and maybe i'll get some hate posts from some gic losers (keep tracing those fonts, you crazy bastards)

just kidding guys (not really, they are losers, but i kid because i love)

mike

[Jason Manley]

gosh...the above post is interesting...hahaha...considering I went to ringling and studied illustration there...Puddnhead was one of the FINE ART LOSERS you mention....SD Barber was in illustration with me....James zhang was in Illustration...Jim Moore of Factor Five Games studied with us at ringling in the Illustration dept....andrew jones went to ringling(i include him even though he was a Comp Anim major because he sat in the illustration classes and does illustration for a living)...the list is long...i have friends at disney..many game companies...funnybone...you name it...there are just as many successful people that have come out of RSAD in recent years as art center.

THIS SITE YOU ENJOY WOULD NOT EXIST IF IT WERE NOT FOR RINGLING SCHOOL OF ART AND DESIGN BEING A GREAT PLACE TO MAKE CONNECTIONS...and i would not be a concept artist had I not met who i met there....james zhang turned me on to concept art when he got his job at lucas...i was studying traditional fine art and planned to be an oil painter.


art center is twice as expensive as ringling once you figure in cost of living. you can still get a burger and fries in sarasota for five or six bucks (not mikky Dees)...that same burger and fries in Pasadena will run you closer to thirteen bucks. I had a 2500 square foot four bedroom house with a big backyard...pool...two car garage..etc..in sarasota for 1300 bones. In Pasasdena that house would run you about 3000-4000 a month to rent...considering i could see the bay from my yard you might as well add on another thousand if you lived in so cal. (the same 1300 in so cal got me a six hundred sq foot one bedrm apt)

Sarasota is a town that supports the art students with work on the job boards. I did not have to have a real job all the way thru my ringling time. I did murals..book illustration...fine art...painted furniture...you name it...i found art related work on a FREELANCE level all local to Sarasota. in Pasadena you would be competing with the professionals for those same little jobs and odds are you would get very few of them.

the annual tuition at art center is more expensive as well...as are supplies in so cal..as is car insurance (you can get by without a car at ringling and housing is walking distance away...in pasadena the school is on top of a mountain surrounded by the smoggiest air you have seen. there is no affordable housing for miles.

Museums are close to BOTH schools mentioned...the ringling musuem has some world class paintings and sculptures...same goes for the norton simon museum in pasadena. you can learn from the masters at either school.


as far as the CA dept there at ringling being the god of gods...I have found that the percentage of people working right out of school tends to be about the same for both departments. of the thirty or whatever graduates in the CA dept each year only about five are worth looking at (if that)....same goes for the CA dept at any school.

I have recieved portfolios from ringling CA people for the past few years applying for game modelling..animation...texture positions...do you know how many had portfolios who were ready to work in games? NOT MANY.

do you know how many modellers in the animation dept at ringling there knew their anatomy...ONE-Andrew Jones.

do you know how many had decent enuff color skills to do a texture position? none...same goes for lighting.

how bout animation...there were a couple...though there were better available on the professional market.

I was forced to hire most our people outside of rsad as i could not find people from the CA dept who met my needs on a 3d level...and that includes a recruting trip there two years ago with Justin Sweet back when i was at interplay. we hired andrew jones to draw and paint even though he was a 3d guy at the time (he is now the only north american concept artist for NINTENDO) and Chris Amaral (illustration) who eventually went on to sculpt toys for Todd Macfarlane.

so how you like them apples mr pavlovich?


jason manley
illustration alum
ringling school of art.



PS...you will have to be self motivated there....same goes for EVERY art school out there. I have been handling hiring for more than a couple projects in the games industry. I am not getting portfolios from any one art school that are better than each other. For every Kchen or Feng at art center there is a Puddnhead or Android at Ringling.

if you live in florida then go to ringling...its cheap to live there..you have people to help you....and you will get the connection to the employers...of which ringling is second to none. (in all my hiring and recruiting i have found ringlings career services dept to be the best by far...and that includes art center whose career dept was a PIA to deal with)


good luck...if i had it to do over again i would not change a thing.


however...Art Center and the schools in the big cities have a lot of great things going...none of what i say takes away from them...you can find quality in all of them...but all have the downsides too.


and finally...in defense of the graphic design dept...brian mah went to ringling and now does film credits. puddnhead got his job at the film studio he works with due to Brians connections and his own hard work and skills he learned via his studies at ringling and the connections he made at ringling. Last I heard they were doing the credits to Daredevil and I saw one of puddnheads matte paintings from the upcoming treasure island. They were doing some stuff for the hulk as well.

so there...

[Pavlovich]

i totally agree some extremely good stuff has come out of the illustration department in the past, as i'm sure more will in the future. my main point is that, speaking in percentages, i know a lot of people in illustration (i'm talking the majority) who either cant draw or dont have any interest in trying. it may have been different when you came here, but i am thouroughly amazed by the inconsistency of student work in that department...speaking just from CA, most of the kiddos in this major have an incredible work ethic and know what they're doing and where they'd like to go. and most of the CA people i know can draw better than...lets say 88% of the illustration majors. i have nothing but the utmost respect for those people you mentioned and others that you didnt. the only reason i know about this site is FROM shawn barber himself (sorry to drop his name...AGAIN, i'm probably making a fool out of myself).

my gic loser girlfriend is over and i have to go eat before i die but in closing, yes, california cost of living is nutx (which is why i'm not at calArt) but evan didnt go to art center because all the rap songs are about cali, its because art center has a better illustration department (there i said it). now AGAIN, before i get yelled at, you're only going to be as good as you put in, so in reality you can go study painting at your friendly neighborhood community college and bust your ass and you will be incredible blah blah blah. you may not have as good networking (excellent point that i hadnt thought of earlier, ringling has very deep and far reaching probes) but hey if you're that damn good somebody will see it unless you bury your stuff in the backyard

time to go, thanks, sorry if i pissed anybody off (except those gic folks)

-mike

[Jason Manley]

art center does not have a better illustration dept...did you take classes at both schools in both depts? do you hire people from those schools? I didnt think so. I personally know faculty and students at and from both schools. Neither has a big advantage over the other.

the CA dept at ringling is a small microcosm of what is actually going on...how many animators at ringling have work that looks as good as the guys who work at ILM or pixar?

There are faculty members from both schools who contribute regularily on this site. There are people that have made huge success from both schools.

on another note....the depts at ringling have rivalrys to a certain degree which is where i think the confusion comes from.

when i went there my illustration friends would bag on the fine art dept...yet puddnhead was in fine art and sd barber sat in with that crowd...while we were painting advertising and editorial illustrations puddnhead was making life size figure paintings of whatever the hell he wanted...granted he did catch flack from the people making glitter footballs and rocks covered with rice and such in their attempts to find new ways of expression...he still maintained his ground and stuck it out.

the fine art crowd would bag on the illustration crowd...and back and forth thru all depts. but the closer we all got to graduating the more we learned from each other and the more we depended on each other....my photo friends helped shoot my portfolio...I helped them with value composition...my fine art friends helped me with my personal work...etc..etc..the rivalry eventually disappeared.


you will find incredible talent in all areas of the art schools programs. Ringling is a decent place to study both CA and traditional medias.


how hard you study is up to you.

Im going to be coming to ringling to look at 3d portfolios in feb. I will most likely have quite a few positions available. Andrew Jones and I will also be there to do a workshop with FEWS. We are going to be looking at portfolios and will be doing some serious grilling.

mr pavlovich...i can see the hands in the drawings on your website...you should pay less attention to how the illustrators are drawing and more attention to what you are drawing.


j

[Jason Manley]

btw..pav...your comment about "the only reason i know about this site is because of sd barber" was funny....my response is that you should be lucky to have such good teachers...after all SD Barber is in the Illustration Dept. He just exposed you to a professional group that you would not have found as soon without his help. you should thank him.

Ive been looking at portfolios for four years now from many different art schools. In all honesty I do hope that your class of 3d people are as strong as you suggest. I will be hiring soon and would love nothing more than to hire people from ringling.


j

[Pavlovich]

well said, i'm sorry if i knocked illustration a little hard (although that wasnt my intention...so much). as far as the rivalry goes, you're absolutely right, and this being my sophomore year here (i have an associates degree thats not worth much but it was a good start) its probably a little more pronounced than it should be. if i wasnt doing CA i would be in illustration, but thats about as far as i'm going to go with that. i wish i had time (or had the balls to make time, i guess) to attend fews more often, my figure work has gone downhill since i've started actually getting into the CA workload. so i'm an ass, illustration rocks, but i will never have a kind word to say about gic

but seriously, thank you, i get your points, and i'm looking forward to seeing you once you get here, hope i didnt piss anybody (you or whoever) off too much, i've been working 50 hours a week at a shitty job all christmas break and its starting to wear on me. nobodys fault but my own i s'pose but money has to be made (it may not be cali but it still aint cheap)

thanks again for giving me another perspective

--mike

[Robert Ashley]

Yeah??!!! Well I went to the Art Institute of Fort Lauderdale for Computer Animation and my work sucks!!!!

(not that I doubt someone who is a professional now came from there)

Its not the school....its what you make of it (in my worthless opinion)

[Sadclown]

I so admire you Jason. You can paint beautifully AND write an entire dissertation telling someone how it is. LOL, you just can't beat that combination. :D

[Buffalo]

Thanks for the information. It was certainly more than I was expecting. This site's memebers seem especially good at encouraging other artists and giving honest but constructive crits. I'll be posting some of my work soon. I look forward to hearing from you all.
Ringling sounds just like what I'm looking for (competitive enviornment, quality work, good job placement...etc). I've met a few graduates from there over the years at life drawing classes and have always been impressed with their work. Art Center sounds great as well. I've seen the beautiful work that comes out of there. But if the two are on similar ground I'll choose the first for location and cost of living.
Personally I see validity in all the artistic directions mentioned, although I'm partial to 2d illustration and fine art myself. Seems ridiculous that people take the time to merit arguing over the worthiness of one art form to another. But I suppose that's what people end up doing when they get bored.
Thanks Pavlovich, J. Manley for your advise. I'll keep it in mind when deciding.:chug:

[Pavlovich]

number one reason to come to ringling: its december 29th and i'm going to siesta beach. my friends in TEXAS cant even boast that shyt

[WildSpruceMoose]

Whoa to tell you the truth I'm sort of scared now of art schools. I mean that was good info. Mr.Manely thanks, but wow sounds like there are some intimidating artists in art schools.

[Jason Manley]

art school is gravy compared to the professional world.


its a lot of fun too...great people..lots of students doing inspiring stuff.

the deadlines in art school are silly compared to the deadlines you will face as a pro. the CA dept at ringling gets at least half of their senior year to do a short animation. In the pro environment they might get three weeks for the same thing and it would have to be better than that.

the illustrators get two weeks for a painting...sometimes a week. During the conceptual art pipeline at troika I was doing 8-12 paintings a WEEK.

Puddnhead will tell you the same thing...same with mr jones...art school is a party compared to what is expected of you on a professional level. enjoy it people..it only lasts a few years...and then its on to the fat checks and car payments!


j

[I.was.ink]

Thanks for that you guys. I just loved it when Jaon said "granted he did catch flack from the people making glitter footballs and rocks covered with rice and such in their attempts to find new ways of expression"

I can't wait to see that crap and laugh about it when I go to Art Center next year. I know its expensive as a buttcheek, but My dad's rich boss is paying it for me, because he always wanted to go, but didn't. So I'll be seeing anyone else who goes there next year.:D

P.S and robert ashley, I agree with you when u said: "Its not the school....its what you make of it " :)

[brokencow]

I'm currently attending ringling. This is my freshmen year and i am in CA. I'd have to agree that there are alot of kids who don't give a shit in illustration, but there are alot of kids who do. It's just like highschool. There are kids who want to learn and there are kids who don't. From what i've seen, CA kids tend to work their asses off more then Illustration kids. My judgement comes from FEWS. If your going to fews everynight and sitting in on classes like me then you are making a strong effort to improve. If your not. Then your just adverage. Before i came to ringling i saw andrewjones's stuff. I was blown away. I learned all about what he did to be so great and now i'm doing just what he did. This is only my first year and i'm busting my ass off...this second semmester i'm working even harder. You can't really say that CA is better then Illustration. It's all up to the artist. I kinda think CA has better artist then Illustration. The only work i've seen is the freshmen class. Maybe it's my class??
When i'm talking to an illustrator and they ask me what major i'm in...i tell them CA and they give me a look. They say "ohh one of those guys". Then they say, "no wonder you draw so good." Even to my friends. Yeah...ringling is awesome though. It's the best school i think. I love going ot school everyday and at the end of the day it's even better cause of FEWS. Then you go home and draw all night. You've got great NICE people to help you everywhere. And there is always people visiting. Goto ringling. It's great.

Jason, when do you come down? And how long?
Can't wait to draw in the same room with you both!
You guys are the reason why i am working so hard...i'm working hard to try and be better then you were when you came to ringling! If that is possiable...mainly just to be the best artist i can possably be! But you guys give so much inspiration. Thank you so much!

Ok...please no one kill me...if you were on campus...we all talk trash about all the majors...it's good fun.

[hexodeci]

I’m also a first year Computer Animator and id have to agree with most of what is said by Jason Manley and Brokencow...

One thing I do think Jason Manley has to know is the CA department has gotten alot harder to get into in the past few years because Ringling has gotten alot more press when it comes to publications and animation festivals...the acceptance rate was 15% this year in the CA department and they accepted people based almost solely on how good they can draw…..I had a recruiter that was an illustration alumni (from ReelFX) tell me personally that the CAs this year seem to be much better artist than in years past....its getting better every year

Pavolich seems to be really strong voiced in his personal opinion...and I hope (know) the reason you didn’t choose Ringling was just to go to the beach...so please quit causing controversy on purpose (especially to our future recruiters)

Also Jason Manley going along with your idea of its what you put into the school. Alot of the Senior Computer Animators have gotten internships at really good companies and most say they have to work twice as hard at Ringling than at the companies, so maybe-according to the professional world-Ringling does give "easy" assignments but no ones going to just do bare minimum here I can guarantee that.

I hope you are impressed with the Portfolios this year...and im glad you are taking the time to consider our school and come to FEWS...


......For anyone looking to attend a art school do your RESEARCH.....alot of art schools are out there, and you want the one that is best in your department...I can personally recommend Ringling for Computer Animation. I don’t know from experience about any of the other departments here because I am not in them but I know alot of kids that transfer to Ringling from other art schools and love it much more here......in all departments.

Also never think the school is going to make you...if you don’t think you are ready to make 24/7 commitments to art don’t come to this school.....please.

[Coma]

:) thanks guys.

[Jason Manley]

to put something in perspective...interns at professional companies are like precollege kids at ringling.....compared to the seniors, the precollege kids got it easy.


j

[Buffalo]

Nice to see my old post is still up and running. I've already sent away to Ringling for their catalogue as well as a few other schools throughout the US and abroad. I like the sound and feel of Ringling so far. But out of curiousity - aside from Art Center what other schools do you all consider tops. Where's the competition coming from? What about the UK/Europe? Anything suggestions. I'm looking not only for great training but also an experience.

[hexodeci]

Most recruiters consider seriden and calarts the other top animation schoools

....i prolly didnt spell seriden right

[Buffalo]

Thanks!

[benzo]

Buffalo-You might want to visit Ringling the weekend of Jan 30-31. That weekend is National Portfolio Day here, so schools from all over the nation will be here to represent themselves and you can get all the info you need. Android and Jason Manley will also be here for FEWS. our figure drawing club. If you are interested in drawing with us then, send me a PM. You'd be welcome to join us. And of course, you'd get to see Ringling also.

As for other schools
Yes, Art Center is up there. If you live on the west coast.
Sheridan and CalArts used to be up there, but ever since Traditional Animation has fallen commercially, so have these schools programs. Or so I've heard. Now, since Computer Animation seems to be dominating the feature and gaming industry, our school is considered the best around (it was one of the first to offer a program in CA).

I can also say, since I have attended a workshop there, that the Academy of Art College in San Francisco has a decent Illustration department and its in a cool city. However, the school is not run well because its for profit and there are way too many students there. However, you could still go there and do very well, as a lot of people have, and you'd already be in an area with lots of jobs.

[Jason Manley]

well it sure sounds like all you CA peeps at ringling have been working your ass off. I shall find out with my own eyes when I am there with andrew. Both he and I have spoken about this...and have agreed that we will be shredding portfolios and egos with "a cold sharp dose of reality" if this is not the case.

jason

[benzo]

One more thing. If you love to draw, go into Illustration, not animation. Sometimes I regret not going to Illustration at Ringling. I remember Android telling me its what he wished he had done. You should follow your heart and not worry about the future; it will all work out in the end if you work hard enough.

At Ringling we have FEWS, which is a figure drawing club with sessions three hours every night, five nights a week. I don't know of any other school with something like this and it really makes a difference over time in improving your drawing skills. Many of the artists on this site who went to Ringling also went to FEWS.

[Jason Manley]

yeah..FEWS is a good thing...I did see that you all have finally got one night a week of one pose. You have no idea how much I had to go through to get even a twenty minute pose while I was there. It seems things are organized better now too. Congrats to that. You have all set up a great opportunity for those who want to draw.

I do have some thoughts about all the gesture drawing that goes on though....

an issue with only doing short term drawings is that you never take the time to really look and to really see. This is one of the reasons that the anatomy/form/lighting/value/color knowledge of the CA group tends to need work even at the senior level. Gesture drawing naturally helps the eye to see weight and movement quickly..and recognizably. Only having a primary focus on 1-5 min poses will lead to problems later in an artists studies..

A balanced focus on both short and long term will increase the artists knowledge of LIGHT and FORM and ANATOMY....as well as movement and weight which are also a part of long term sessions.

as video game and film animation and 3d moves more toward the realistic with each passing day, it is important to understand the kinds of things that only long term drawing can give you. I will say these words again...light...form...anatomy...space....even a 3d artist must know how the eye actually sees. to understand how the eye sees...concentrated long term sessions must be struggled through. I can see a 3d portfolio and know if that artist has a firm understanding of long term seeing. I can see it immediately. It is one of the things I look for when I am hiring. However..while games and film 3d move toward the realistic, I am also aware that this kind of long term study will improve stylized work as well. Consider long term drawing sessions as eating your artistic wheaties. :)

when i used to go to fews I remember watching the "gesture only" crowd get blocked up when we would move to any session past five minutes. A ten minute drawing tended to look like a five minute drawing with some extra outlines...an artist can not learn to see if he or she is not forced to look. The more you learn to see (the kind of seeing that only comes from long term study) the more your stylized work will improve as well.


well..like i said..at least there is one night of a medium length pose. I am hoping to see some great stuff while I am at Ringling. I know there is a good talent base to pull from and I also know the environment is great for study. I totally look forward to seeing you all and your work.


just some thoughts....


jason

[Aegis]

I dont post much, but i would like to say that im ringling CA, and i think the program is really good, but much more oriented to those who are interested in 3d. I know a lot of animators here who wish they were doing more 2d or traditional animation. Make sure you know what you wanna do before you come here. If you are interested in traditional 2d animation then go to Cal arts.

whatch out for, those Cal arts folks, they got three times the arrogence of the RSAD's i know from experience

and if you are interested in animation at all stay the hell away from RISD,

its a crappy, crappy program. I went there for pre-c
but good illustration program

I hope that was helpful, bare-bones, and too the point

I hate rambeling

Happy Huntin' good buddy:rolleyes:

[Tristan]

Originally posted by Jason Manley

I do have some thoughts about all the gesture drawing that goes on though....

an issue with only doing short term drawings is that you never take the time to really look and to really see.



OOOOOOh thank you very much!

I'm a Jr. Illustration major at RSAD. (sdbarber student) and gestures kinda piss me off. Not on principle, but because the kids i see that are "good" at it are just repeating a system, just going through the motions of a preset program. I've found that a TONE of the work at FEWS looks super alike. This no knew concept. I've been told this before and it wasn't until I started to go to FEWS regularly that I experienced it. Is it a complaint? I wouldn't really say so but I certainly don't think a good gesture should be worshiped on the level it is (at least from the way they're treated here). I can't draw them the way oldschool FEWSers can. I just use gesture drawing as a way to loosen up my drawing, help me to get more comfortable w/ my own mark but at the same time I try not to compramise style and technique. It doesn't seem right to have everyone married to that Disney line weight style of drawing...it looks cookie cutter to me.

For the record I HAD to go to Savannah College of Art and Design my first year of college and really should not be any complaining coming from anyone about the quality of Ringling. You'll have slackers everywhere that's just the nature of people but don't even get me started on how much better Ringling is then SCAD.

[Jason Manley]

well know this...I do not want to see entire portfolios of those disney cookie cutter gestures. they are mostly soulless disney dogma and only a hundredth as important to me as something that shows "eye and creativity" I can not hire anyone on a portfolio of those alone. One or two pages is fine...but doing that as a staple of the portfolio to secure jobs is a myth (UNLESS YOU ONLY WANT TO WORK FOR DISNEY or 2d animation). you might get a job as an inbetweener with a portfolio like that but dont expect much more. Its not hard to find people for inbetweening jobs now either due to the state of the industry too. DO you think that the pros are showing those? well they probably still have some in their portfolio as keepsakes.

I get portfolio after portfolio like that from the ringling crowd every single year. That aint it people...trust me. It is an advantage the art center crowd has...they dont do that from what I have seen...but as andrew might note "the art center crowd has their own cookie cutter style and program highlights"

you see...part of the issue with art school all the way in florida is that the faculty are not often aware of what the different industries need to see in their portfolios. This is the PRIMARY reason for andrew's and my visit there. I have hired two art teams this year already and will hire another this spring. I have not yet been able to utilize the Ringling crowd as the portfolios do not as of yet apply well to jumping right into the game field. Disney is THE COMPANY there and has heavy swing. it is too bad come hiring time that disney is only on of the thirty different recruiters to show up at career services. it is too bad too that disney hires only one or two people often times....what about everyone else?

there is not one job in video games where someone could be hired with a portfolio of those gestures. Sending them out is a waste of time. Including your best page of them...maybe one of animals and one of figures is enough to show that you know that lines have wieght and that you have sketching ability. the question I want to know is...WHAT ELSE DO YOU SKETCH now that you know one tiny technical aspect of drawing? How do you put that to use???? Can you think??? Can I see thinking giong on and not quick visual note taking? There are no jobs for note takers in games.

unless your quick gesture pages look as nice as El Coro justin kaufman's on the main page then dont waste my time with fifty pages of them. I will look at them at fews and give input. I had enough semesters of figure to communicate and help. However, come hiring day...show me the goods...not those....UNLESS THEY ARE JUST THAT GOOD.

When I was at Ringling I remember I walked into an interview with a different large game company. I sat down and the guy says..."let me show you a portfolio of what you should not show me!" you want to know what it was??? it was one of those soulless ringling/disney scripted gesture portfolios. He then said...let me show you an ideal portfolio. Do you want to know what it was? It was andrew jones portfolio full of ideas. He said to me "i cant teach you to do this...anyone can learn to do gestures given time...thinking is difficult!". I think andrew had a page or two of heads in there...a page or two of gestures...and that was it. The rest was andrew putting those skills to use.

I CAN SEE IF YOU CAN GESTURE DRAW IF YOU DO YOUR OWN DRAWINGS! I can see it in all of your work. It is not a means to an end.


I will go into this more while I am there. I will go into exact specifics and will discuss portfolio building at length.



jason

[Pavlovich]

woaaaaah

i didnt post the 'beach' comment to stir up more trouble, i posted it because i thought the whole 'bashing' thing was getting a little heavy and out of hand. manley, i love you, this wasnt an attack on illustration, or you personally (contrary to popular belief). illustration rocks. illustration is hard. ca rocks. ca is hard. if you want to succeed, you have to work. school is hard, the field is harder. uhhh...did i leave anything out?

i still honestly dont think i was waaay off base in my response; it's crowded, things have changed, and i dont think necessarily for the better. BUT

sorry i started the whole hate mongering reply, hopefully it will steer itself back toward the original question. but i think the most disturbing aspect of this entire thing is that nobody has come to the defense of the graphic designers. i guess that just goes to show you that the forum dictates the kind of support you will get. ie, dont post something that speaks less than well of anything having to do with illustration on this site. if you want to do that, i guess you can go to a graphic design forum, since apparently illustration and graphic design seem to be very separate animals. just like if you want to talk about how much CA sucks and how you're not going to get a job when you graduate ringling (something i remember somebody saying waaaay earlier, mabye not in so many words but that was the message i got out of it) its ok to do it here but dont do it in the ringling CA forum. actually you probably could do it in the Ringling CA forum, seeing as how nobody seems to ever go there....

https://saffron.rsad.edu/forums/

[Jason Manley]

pavlovich.....uhm...what are you talking about?

no one ever said that the CA dept sucks...it is one of the top programs for CA in the country. No one said CA peeps would never get a job either. That is silly. I have CA friends who work on many great projects...including stuff for ILM.

I did say that I couldnt hire one person out of CA for the past two art teams I put together...and that i was forced to hire out of other schools. That has little to do with the quality of the students and program...it has more to do with the lack of portfolios that reflect what I needed to see to hire game animators, modellers, lighters and texturers.

the above posts will hopefully help that situation to a degree.

you have much to learn my new friend...be patient and you will hear what is being said.

the latest posts are not attacks on the CA or Illustration crowd...they are simply noting the issues why the games companies are hiring artists more and more from within the industry and the mods community instead of the art schools. Andrew is aware of this as are the other pros that I deal with. This is the primary reason we are coming to visit ringling. The faculty need to be aware of the new requirements as does career services...as do all of you looking for work.

At this point it is easier for me to hire a talented mod maker from the quake community or the half life community then it is to hire someone with a great education at rsad or risd or the others. Game makers even on an amateur level have portfolios that are more appropriate to the specific job. The necessary adjustments in portfolio takes little time. I often wonder why the right stuff is not included. ( a portfolio of gestures based NOT on what you are seeing but on what disney tells you to see is not the answer...and thust my last post)

THE KINDS OF THINGS I AM SAYING will be restated and hammered during our entire visit there. those who really want to know what they need to do to prepare will hear me. those who are not ready to hear what I am saying will make it out as something else.

no one needs to come to any defense for the graphic designers because it is NOT about that. AT ALL. you are twisting words and going off in some strange direction with that. I think you are the only one seeing things as you are. I suggest that instead of trying to stir up trouble you should focus on your art portfolio and work on your budding skills.

btw...that forum is for rsad students only...you need a password and ringling username.


j

[Pavlovich]

i understand, and i'll be ready to hear you when you get here (seriously i am looking forward to it...students and faculty here are giving me crap but thats ok...did i totally ruin my chances at working in any CA related field by making you mad? i hope not...it was unintentional, promise). i just have probably an overly healthy respect for the CA students (they are a good group and they never cease to amaze me)

so i'm going to continue to work hard, and this is the last time i post anything on this thread! (i mean it this time)

[Pavlovich]

WAIT!

just wanted everybody to know i was kidding about all the graphic design stuff. sarcasm doesnt translate well; i really dont care

[Jason Manley]

you didnt ruin any chances...the only way you can do that is if you have a shitty portfolio come hiring time....or graduation.

that is up to you.

what are students and faculty giving you crap about? slacking on the art forums instead of doing your art?


jason

[benzo]

Pavlovich-Don't worry about it, its over. At first I was pissed but look at all this great conversion you started....

I agree with most of what has been said about FEWS and gesture drawing. However, I think gesture drawings should be valued more. I consider them high art; a two minute pose is as worthy as a five session painting to me if it is don't masterfully. I wish gestures got the respect they deserve, but thats just me. I feel like they often have more life in them than anything that is rendered over and over for hours, and that they are the life source of all the great paintings and drawings that have not lost the gesture in the rendering. Of course, I realize that the commercial importance is dwindling and that they are only the basis for what is wanted.

Tristan- I also don't think that all of the work out of FEWS looks the same. Yes, there are formulas, but the more you draw the more you are set free from them. You learn to rely on using silhuettes and blind contour, on pure rhythm. Every drawing is a new experience because you don't know how it will unfold. You just decide on the spot where it will begin and go from there. Everyone who comes to FEWS regularly has their own unique style and you can decipher them apart. On the other hand, its good to use FEWS for whatever means it helps you, so if it just helps to loosen you up, thats great.

Since most of the classes here, at RSAD, tend to have only long poses, FEWS can give a student that balance that is needed to grow. I don't know how many paintings or long drawings I see that are just dead because they lack the qualities that you gain from gesture drawing like proportion weight and movement. We are only students, and the more drawing we do, no matter what it is, the better. It can take a long time to fully understand the figure....three hours a night doesn't hurt. Ok, think I made my point.

Mr. Manley, I can attest that I have struggled with longer poses in the past because so much of my drawing was done in FEWS or on sketch trips. I know exactly what you are talking about and agree with you. When I first came to Ringling I only wanted to be a Disney animator and all I did was FEWS. For a while I had the subconscious time clock in my head that I couldn't control. A good balance between both long and short poses is definitely the best. Aren't we all searching for that perfect balance?

[jmascho]

If you want to go to Ringling make sure you are ready to spend a lot of money and suck it up when it comes to doing stupid stuff your first year. Bottom line is, you make yourself, not them. I left after the first semester this year because I was not ready to spend that much money on something I wasn't sure of. Make sure you are doing what you want to do. They will not show you how to draw. They will provide you with the opportunity, you have to fixate yourself to the grind.

I'm thinking about what the hell it is I want to do with myself. Yeah, I am thinking about coming back to Ringling next year, I am also looking at CCS and ArtCenter. IMO, Art School is a shot in the dark if you don't know what you want. Figure it out, then come blow everyone away. Before I go back anywhere, I am making sure I am professionally ready, able to support myself, and have defined goals. If YOU are ready, RSAD is one hell of a place to be. I made friends there that I hope to stay friends with for a long time. There is a huge outlet for your creative growth there, but it's not required. And for all of the people at RSAD not going to FEWS...WTF were you thinking? :D

Good luck man

:chug:

[Jason Manley]

one final note on the disney style gesture portfolios that tend to come from fews...did disney not just lay off all of their california animation staff? Did they not lay off some prominent ringling alumni who worked there for years?

if that is what your portfolio consists of...when disney pulls the plug...then what are you going to do?

a wide portfolio with pockets of specialization toward a given position will help you more than a portfolio of 1 minute animal sketches in the long run.

think about it.

benzo...yes lots of long term drawings can be beat to death. A great gesture is a beautiful thing. Twenty pages of gestures in your portfolio is redundant.

I mentioned the disney style gesture portfolio to Puddnhead the other day...he had this to say. "that wont get them anywhere!...Nobody is getting work from those." I mentioned being an inbetweener..his response was..."why would you only want to do that...dont they know disney just laid off the entire 2D animation group from california??"

A specialized portfolio with a couple more diverse minor focuses will help you to maintain work in this economy. If all you can do is draw...what will you draw when all the drawings are done? What will you do? Learning some 3d..some texturing...learning to illustrate...learning some graphic design...all these things will help you to hold positions in the long term. One trick pony's are rare nowadays.


j

[benzo]

thats funny, we just had this discussion at lunch and I was saying all you need to do is know how to draw and paint and work hard and it will all work out; if you like to draw or paint go into Illustration so you have more time to develop your skills, but you are right and my argument is too idealized....if you want to get a job you need to be versatile.

You are also right about Disney...earlier in the year I was invited to the Orlando studio with six others and we were told that we were the top seven candidates for entry level positions and that if they had jobs we would have made the cut, but they adviced to take another job if we could because they don't know when they will have more jobs available....maybe soon but not for sure.

Disney was very curtious to us and they treated us well there; we met some of the best talent there like Ruben Aquino, but in the back of my mind I couldn't help but feel sorry for us and for the whole traditional animation industry because it has fallen on such hard times despite such hard work by the animators, some of whom are my friends from Ringling.

The animators are losing their jobs because of poor decisions from the executives who force the directors to water down and compromise everything because of what test audiences say and because of what is the most appealing to the largest possible crowd (for all their recent movies except Lilo). Even if they have jobs now we will compete with those who were laid off. By the way, we were also repeatedly adviced to learn Maya:)

So that is the situation here if you want to work for Disney.

[PT Osborne]

Its all been said before in this forum... which has been quite entertaining to read.

I am a fourth year CA at Ringling, and am completely satisfied with the education I have acquired here.

there are a few things four years here have taught me about art schools, and art in general.

- Not everyone comes out of it an amazing artist, animator, whatever. Some people just have the wrong idea.

- Those who have developed into the best, in whichever major they might be in because I know great artists in each of the majors, develop into the artists they become because the are focused and work hard, knowing that no teacher is just going to be able to hand painting or animating skill over to you.

- 90 % of my education came from my peers, not my teachers. (not to knock Ringling at all... such is the nature of art school)


just my 2 cents

[Jason Manley]

when i first started out drawing it was with the sole intention of becoming a traditional animator. I went as far as completing a six month internship training program at a place that did kellogs commercials and some other cool stuff.

I had been studying my animation history and found that it has tremendous peaks and valleys. It rises and falls every ten to twenty years...it was this instability that made me give up the animation only thing in order to pursue drawing and painting as well. If i could do storyboards...and layout...and concepting...etc...as well as animation I thought I might have a chance. little did i know that painting would become my first love.

you are right about disney wanting the maya thing...they supposedly gave the option of learning maya to all the people they shitcanned.

just goes to show....versatility of skills and vision will help you. However you MUST have a primary focus that you shine within.


j

[brokencow]

Jason, can you tell me exactly what your going to be doing on each day your here at ringling? I don't want to miss a thing. Also, i'd REALLY like you to bash my drawings into the ground. I'm really intrested in what i should improve on and what you think are my strong points. Also this will help me in my portfolio. I can't wait to meet you guys and draw in the same room. I juse hope we get time to talk.

- I really want to stick up for gestures. But i don't know what to say. Like always. I just really think they help alot. But like what jason and others are saying, i don't think you should have a portfolio full of them. As for everyone drawing the same in FEWS. That's alittle odd. I don't really see it at all. Maybe you think we all draw the same because we are all really good artist??? As fo disney style cookie cutters. I think we all do that. Come on now...we all do. Not disney, but we all get into that habbit where we draw like a machine. You just have to break it up and do other things. Long poses are great for studying different things like anatomy, lighting, shading and eviroment and more. Long poses help you get a better grip on life. But too much long pose will kill you. I think you need to free up, and that's where gestures can help. Bleh.

Jason, your long responces are great. They are so informative. Thank you for taking the time to inform us all.

Again, can't wait to meet you and learn from your experence.

Randall

[Jason Manley]

brokencow...i dont know my full schedule yet.

we are doing a LOT though...we will look at everyones work. we will be doing group crits as well.

we are both doing demonstrations and such and will be going to fews. i will probably doing more helping than drawing while I am in fews...but we shall see. if no one wants help then i will draw.


I do think the only reason that you think long term drawings will kill you is because you dont do enough long term drawings. a one day pose IS NOT a long term drawing. your understanding of light and space and anatomy and form and weight will suffer if you do not take the time to do long term work. simple as that.

those that can...do.

those that want to learn...do.

those that cant or dont...tend to complain about it and only do gestures.


jason

[Travis_Bourbeau]

I really admire all the people that bust there ass at school ! i agree with what everyone says that most schools are what you put into them! I dont know this personally as i have not attended do to the money side of things, but what i do know is that many of my friends attend schools and don't put fourth the effort and bitch alot! This is a shame to me most of them come to me now for refrance books or suggestions and crits (im far better 2d at seeing things in peoples works than doing it better at this point pushing them to think about the character more than make sure its is 8 heads tall LOL )

Ii have to admit to bieng a lil overboard in my will to learn i have about 200 refrance books that i have memorized from anotomy to life drawing to animal bones etc, most of them i got a year and a half ago when i got into 3d. I left a 60,000$ a year job because i knew i wanted to be an artist im still far off from that goal i model to the point i can now focus on making them better rather than making them but i wouldnt recomend anyone do this unless you are 100 percent sure thats what you want from life , its disapointing to see somd guys in school are lazy about it though not all are just some i know , ive been lucky enough through forums and msn to meet and learn from tons of inspiring artist sometimes more inspiring by there actions others buy bieng hard on me , my friend daryl mandrake has realy been a big influence he works at e a all day long then goes home at night and does life drawing digital paint and modeling he realy pushes me in his actions to do all areas of art and not just model also he lets me know im not the only insane person around to me thats work ethic ! you have a great job but yet push like your job is just a learning tool




I know im a lil off topic (WAY OFF ) but i think any student that reads this may push themselves a lil harder and if so i have helped. I think if you go to college and appply yourself you can come out a awesome artist , there are many things i wish i could attend for alone such as organzation interaction resources etc but i am glad that this is still a show me industry where you send out your work and are hired on that



Funny thing is i sneak into stetson once in a while hear and pic up some pointers LOL and planned on taking a tour of ringling end of january though sense im not a student i doubt ill see you there :( forgot to add that if i had to choose and could get in based off of what ive seen and read id choose ringling or sheridan in canada my freind nathan who works for bunjie went there and he seemed to get alot from his hardwork there

[F3nix]

:D I'm planning on going to Ringling. But I'm trying to assemble a portfolio. What kind of portfolio would they be looking for (illustration major) what would catch their attention and what kind of pieces are they looking for?

Mr. MAnley, and all the others who attended RSAD, what did your portfolio consist of to land positions in the school? I'd appreciate feedback
:D :)

-Anthony

[Leon_Bonnat]

anthony...do as much realistic drawing and painting from life as you can.

you have no idea how much of the entertainment industry looking stuff (comics, conceptart etc..) the recruiters see...it makes them sick.

a nice portfolio of still life...portraits...self portraits...landscapes...figures....and a few imaginitive illustrations....simple is fine.


spend time on each image....if you want..create a thread called my ringling portfolio...post each one and i will give you input on what you might do to nail it down.

the private art schools are not as hard to get into as they let on. do not fear...if you work hard...you will get in...if you keep working hard...you will excel.


jason manley

[F3nix]

THANKS ALOT MR.MANLEY! You have no idea how hapy you just made me. You words are really inspiring and motivating to me.

I'll start working right away! :D

Oh and by the way, is it still too late to submit a portfolio? When is it too late, what deadline should I set for myself?

Thank you for the response :D

[brokencow]

janurary 15, or 16th...but that may be for CA. Not sure.

Good luck!

[clayrodery v.03]

I'm absolutely hell-bent on attending Ringling this fall. I applied to be a CA major and the wait for acceptance is killing me, man. I'm like the laziest person when it comes to doing chores around my house, but everyday the second the mail gets here i go out and check it, even though I know a responce won't be coming for a couple of weeks. My friend Clayton Stillwell is a CA freshman this year, and he keeps giving me the inside scoop on what and what not to do next year, granted I get in.

[jmascho]

clay's sketchbook is freakin sick...him and caleb are good.

[empty]

hola, everyone... salutations jason.

yes, i am another CA graduate from that great learning place in sunny florida so i figured i'd put in my own two cents.

first off, as stated before it's what you put into art school that you get out. i busted my butt in the CA department as well as taking every illustration and figure drawing course i could get into, went to fews as often as i could(which wasn't that often as i had to work a full time job while in school) and i still feel i could have done much more as well as taken the things i did do a lot more seriously.

i feel the CA department at ringling is great, and it really prepared me for my job. they really teach you everything you need to know and more, but i have to agree with jason. it's a piece of cake compared to the real world. if i recall you have a few weeks to do one animation, right? well, i get 4 days to do six animations, not to mention i don't get a chance to redo it and turn it in a second time. you have a lot more work to do in a much shorter amount of time. on a similar note, you learn a hell of a lot more while on the job than in school... i learned more in one year at sony than i did four years at ringling.

as far as CA versus illustration versus GIC etc,etc.... there definitely is that there, but i was lucky enough to have friends in every major... including Interior Design(are they still the hottest girls at the school? just thought i'd ask) and i can tell you that every major has the same situation. there are some really good students that are serious about what they are doing and intend to succeed and there are those that would rather go to the beach than sit in the lab. there was a full spectrum of quality of work in all the majors. i knew quite a few CA's that were horrible and a few that were exceptional(i would say when i graduated i was somewhere in the middle) just like every other major. it's the one's that are dedicated and make those sacrifices that go on and get the jobs.

now, i'll be the first to admit that i'm not the artist andrew, jason, or shawn are, but i still push myself and still take figure classes because i don't want to be in front of the computer for my whole life. given, i love my job and it's great being in the video game industry but in no way can it take the place of creating something with your hands.

as for the video game industry, from experience since i graduated, most companies seem to prefer hiring people that can do both very well(traditional art as well as digital art). remember, not every production house can afford to employ seperate concept artists for each of their titles. so a lot of times people are required to do double duty. as far as whether it's better to study illustration or CA, or where to attend school, i don't think it matters. the two guys i share an office with graduated from art center and they are both exceptional artist and each one has their strengths. we have learned from each other whether one is helping with illustrations or one is helping with modelling and texturing.

I would recommend ringling for any of their departments, so go wherever you think you would be comfortable but just make sure you are dedicated to whatever you decide.

[Jason Manley]

that was very very well written. cheers.


Im in agreement about the amount of learning in the professional world vs school. Puddnwood and I used to say to each other "man I learned more today than I did in 2 months in art school"

sure the ca peeps are workin hard..as are some of the illustration people....so is android and so am I...but I am in agreement with empty that once you get out you will be required to quadruple your output at the least.

j

[Buffalo]

Just a quick drop back to my first post on this site. I really appreciate all the input on Ringling and other Schools and programs you all gave. I'm planning to drive up to Sarasota this weekend to attend the portfolio day, check out the school and possibly sit in on any lectures/presentations I can. Hopefully I'll get to meet at least one or two of you and see some more of the work being done there.

Thanks again.

[empty]

good luck

let us know how it goes for you...

[DragonGX]

Are they having an open hosue type day going on? What is portfolio day?

IVe been thining about applying to Ringling since I live so close, but i am not ready jsut quite yet.. ANyways it would be great to be able to check out the school and see whats going on there.. can anyone give me some more information?

[empty]

portfolio day is a day when art schools around the nation are at one location and will review your portfolio and critique. usually about 30 or so schools show up including RISD, SAIC, SCAD... they're not might too many california schools tho, since it is across the country and they have their own portfolio day at sometime. they will all give you more information on what they're particular school offers and what not. now, don't quote me on this(since i'm not at ringling anymore, but i used to volunteer for p-day when i was), but i believe it will probably start around 9 am and go until about four, but it's better to get there early. by the afternoon some schools reps are tired and won't give you the attention you deserve, or they will have left altoghether. there are also going to be a ton of other people and students there to get there stuff reviewed.

ringling will offer tours and other things to show potential students around.

i highly recommend it to anyone planning on attending any art school. you should contact the ringling admissions and they'll give you more information on what time it starts and where to be.

[Scratched Glass]

Greets to all, esp Jason and Andrew. I've been a fan of the site for quite some time but never registered till recently. I'm a 3rd year Illustrator who has only recently become interested in concept design. I had the pleasure of seeing Jason and Andrew at work for a painter 7 demo at Ringling this weekend. And i have to say, I haven't been inspired like that in quite a long time. Truly someting to strive for. It's what I really needed right now, and I think its going to push me further than I've ever been. I'll be keeping up with the forums on this site more frequently and will post up work of my own as it comes along. I'm looking forward to hear and share with everyone.

[Tristan]

You said it grex. totally blew my mind away. I stayed up late rehashing my website stripping it of anywork that i felt was even close of not being up to par. I've still got a long way to go.

Grex i see you've done something with your site...

Jason, Andrew thank you so much for taking me to a new level I didn't even know existed.

[Frosty fu]

I am a freshman illustrator at ringling and I thought I'd share some of my advice in my college selection process:

I visited art center, ringling, and sheridan .(http://www.sheridanc.on.ca/) before I did applications

Art center seemed like the most professional, but the smog, expensive housing, and the post grad student body didn't seem right to me. I want peers that i can work AND hang out with.

Sheridan seemed way to focused. I decided that if I went to sheridan and decided that I didn't want to do animation that i would be back on the college search.

Ringling has such a balance, and with all the majors you have such diversity. Some people are more experienced or hard-working than others, but everyone's learning, and I'm always impressed by the relationships the school has with it's grads.

that's it, -d

[Frosty fu]

hell... please dis-regard that last post... I added it to the wrong thread because I'm new to this forum thing...

[Jason Manley]

thanks...andrew and I had a great time at ringling...he and I really worked hard to get all the info we could to you all. I havent talked that much EVER in the course of four days. I saw some amazing stuff...andrew seemed impressed too.

Glad to be of help.


jason

[Crunch]

I'm currently attending ringling as an illustrator. i will have to agree with jason and Brokencow in saying that ringling is exactly what you put into it. i started out as someone who could kinda draw enough to get in and now that i work harder than most people, go to fews, and draw in almost all my spare time i have gotten loads better. i have had some great core teachers. ringling gives you every opportunity to become the best artist you can be. it is just a question of how bad you want it. i have learned a ton just by taking advice from teachers even if i think its a dumb idea. trying new stuff is a must. learning to take critisism is a biggie too. ringling is one of the best schools for art as far as i am concerned. the proof is in the work. just looking at this site should tell you enough. but i have heard it is easy to slack off and slip by in illustration...but no serious artist would ever jsut settle for a half assed piece. every serious artist out of ringling is sucessful as far as i am concerned.

[sVtcObra]

im a soph. illustration major at ringling. mike....i dunno man illustration does have ALOT of people that shouldnt be here (alot) but as far i see animation has more and more people that really cant draw but can use a computer with skill...from who i know and what ive seen comp. animation students need alot more life drawing..... evan was a dickhead but he knows what he wants and ive never meet anyone that worked like he did... there are more and more people in illustration that are getting good i dont think there at the level they should be but good nontheless...the illustration dept. is getting tight on who is to stay and who has to leave, i think we llost like 10 people from last semester..i went to fews for a while but it wasnt for me....ive been drawing figures a long time and anything under 2 min is ( in my opinion) a waste of time ...its good though for when u start figure drawing... i came to this school form a hard highschool art class and i was better than the average person but the freedom of college got the best of me and i didnt work as hard as i could have , i agree that u get out of this place what u put into it and right now im learning alot of new things and expanding my horizon from what i thought last year ...i picked this school cuhz i knew some people here and it was 3 hours from home...but i have friends in art schoold all over...MICA...SAN FRAN..DETROIT..LIME...CALARTS..NEW YORK...and they all tell me the same, they also have people that suck and whatever although in some schools the average portfolio is better this is still a very strong school in my opinion:chug: my 2 cents :waves: hi mike hi....where u been ?>>> i saw ur mocket (is that spelled right) i was like :eek: DAMN goo shit ...email me ...eangel

[Monica]

Hi, I'm new to posting here but I have visited the forum from time to time in the past. I saw this thread and just had to throw in my two cents. I graduated from Ringling's Illustrations department a year or so ago, I do have to say the school had really gone downhill since I started there. I remember people talking about you Jason, and Shawn, and I knew James, but around the time you guys graduated the school started to change -and not for the better at all. I do think it is what you make of it, but only to an extent of course, I found that I was learning more from the other students than the teachers because the classes were so over booked. It's great to learn from your peers, but why pay for school if your not learning from the teachers as well? The majority of people I was in class with couldn't draw and had a hard time improving. I don't think I'm a great artist, I'm no where near conceited and I hate to say this, but there were a lot of really bad artists there, my required high school art class on a whole was better. And that really drags the entire class down, it's hard to improve in that kind of environment. One of the reasons they may not have improved was not because some of them didn't want too (even though that was the case for many) but because the teachers had no time to help them. They are so overbooked with new students. Illustration classes might as well have been lecture classes, no time for individuals at all. Plus with the new president they started taking power away from the teachers and really screwing them over. Even Custode, who has been there since the start of the school basically, they were going to take him out off of figure painting -and Yalowitz was so unhappy he finally quit. The problem is the teachers who were unhappy couldn't really tell us anything because of the schools policies so I'm even worried to say anything here because I know how rumors work at that school and get people in trouble. If any one remembers the whole SAM situation you might get what I'm talking about. See, when I first started reading this thread I agreed with a lot of Pavlovich points in his first post. I honestly belive the school is solely surviving on reputation and a very few good teachers and students that are there -A VERY FEW. All of the departments are suffering -Or should I say were suffering. They might have improved recently, I would only hope so because everyone I knew of in my class was very discouraged with their experience there when they left. I would say, don't go to Ringling, you could learn just about as much on your own. You will only have about 1 good teacher each year you're there so why not pay for private lessons? You'd be paying less on the whole, and would be getting more attention and help. I hope I didn't really offend anyone and I don't really mean to start another debate up, these are just my feelings on the way things were when I went there.

[Jason Manley]

the one thing you cant get from private lessons that you can get from ringling is ringlings strength...and that is the career services dept.

I did 3 and a half years of lessons before ringling with a painter in arizona...he couldnt help me get a job...he could teach me the skills...but he didnt bring me the companies.

phyllis and cindi are two of the main reasons to go.


but you bring up a lot of great points monica. They are valid. Honestly.

I had a similar outlook when i was there. Looking back though it was completely worth it.



j

PS..are you monica...the monica james used to draw in his sketchbook?

just wondering.

[Monica]

I don't know...There were a lot of Monica's at the school so I couldn't really tell you if it was me.....did he really draw me in his sketch book? We were friends for a while but I haven't talked to him in a long time, there was only a brief time in the last few years that we spoke and that's when he went with Lucas to recruit at Ringling. I'm too shy to keep in touch with people ^_^; But I have this card in my old sketch book, he made it for me my first year - if that helps identify me or just for fun incase you want to tease him for being silly `_^

http://www.melorasworld.com/james.jpg

I agree about Phlis, she is a great resource. I think one of the problems with my last year too is that she left for a while and they had to talk her back. The reason I suggested private lessons is because I actually took some after school and improved a considerable bit. But that all depends on the teacher, I had a good strict one, and mine could have gotten me jobs, -he was offering too actually, but I moved away, and like I said, I'm too shy. I think everyone has different experiences everywhere and with everything. A lot of it's luck and a lot of it is personal drive. I appreciate people's different experiences because hearing every one's side is what keeps you aware, and possibly from getting screwed by bad situations, where ever they may be.

[sparky | emily]

I'm going to be going to the PreCollege program this summer, how is that?

[Jason Manley]

fun!!

[sVtcObra]

i went to pre college ..it was fUN and i knew a few people and teachers so i got the inside track !!!!!!!:chug: :D

[Jason Manley]

I agree with you monica baker...thats you right? blonde hair? into anime...dressed well...elegant...drew a lot...

yeah...I think there was a time where every character james drew looked just like you. :) we used to give him a hard time...I think you were one of the people who he really respected and liked. I will pester him and see if he will post some of those drawings up here. I know he has them still.

j

[DragonGX]

What exactly is pre-college? Ive been thinking about applying at Ringling since I live so close, but im getting mixed reviews..

BTW - How can I find people for private lessons in the sarasota area? Ive done a little bit of oil painting, but I'd really like to get some lessons (everything i did was all on my own). Are there any schools that actually teach you to use painter 7?

[sVtcObra]

pre college is a summer program that last a month....u get a schedule and u have class all day ..if its still the same you get to choose 2 classes closest to what u want as a career... and then u have the others liike figure color and some other things ...i would defenetly recomened it (i cant spell!) it was awesome living in dorms and meeting people from EVERYWHERE even europe and parts of asia....good luck !:beer: :chug:

[hexodeci]

I also went to precollege here and now I attend for CA and I enjoyed my experience in precollege...

my only complaint is that sometimes on the weekend we didnt get much time to work on homework insted we went on field trips...

But if i was living in Sarasota like you are DragonGX I would do SVA or RISD over the summer.....its always good just to change your environment..cus you can prolly just walk across the street and Ringlings there...and it sounds like you are having trouble deciding on colleges to look around a little....different colleges are better for different people

Just get a copy of painter 7 and the biggest size wacom tablet (its worth it if u are gonna use it alot) and get started....its something that you can only learn from experience

[DragonGX]

Yeah, Im only 19 years old, Ive always been into art, and I think that for my age, I can draw well compared to most otehrs my age. Id really like to learn more techniques to do things, ie: painting, painting in Painter, markers, etc... Its ahrd to learn these things by yourself..

One big obstacle I have is deciding what to major in. Id would really like to do illustration or concept art, but Id also like to do industrial design. Or at least have an industrial design background to "fall back on" if I cant find anything in illustration..

I work full time right now, and even if i dont attend school, I would at least like to take some classes, jsut to learn more. Ive looked at soem of the classes ringling has on their website, so I might jsut go down there and find out what summer classes they might have..

I get the feelign Ringling is about Disneyesque-Animation/Illustration, and while I respect the artists that do that, I dont really want to head in that direction..

[Jason Manley]

uhm...do any of the main page members look disneyesque? you can study anything you want there. its all up to you.


you have to go learn to draw and paint from life. THAT IS THE ONLY THING THAT SHOULD CONCERN ALL OF YOU. Once you can do that...you can do industrial design...you can do conceptual art...you can do gallery work...you can do comics...you can do 3d texture work...you can do a shitload of different things. you follow me? it is all about the basics. get the basics down!..then move on to what it is that you are painting.

you can learn painter in a week if you already know how to paint. just cuz you know painter doesnt mean you know how to paint...i can teach an artist to paint in painter in two days...it takes years to teach someone to accurately draw and paint...let alone put ideas together visually.


i tend to agree with the comment about getting out of your backyard. if money is not an issue then go to sva or risd or art center or...and if you dont live in sarasota then ringling is on that list. exposure to new things and new ideas is key.

if money is an issue than just go to wherever is closest.


j

[DragonGX]

I know that not all Ringling alumni have Disneyesque styles, I mean looking from all the people who went there on these boards, none of them do that.. I jsut get the feeling they push it alot there from what Ive read on the internet.. I guess Im wrong, I dont really know.. Right now Im mostly doign life drawings, Im trying hard to study anatomy, and doing several anatomy studies.. I dont remember who said it but an artist said something to the effect of "if you can draw the human figure, you can draw anything". I believe that is true. That is why right now instead of drawing robot renegade cops, Im doing figure drawings, anatomy studies and even a still life here and there.

I lived in Utah the first 18 years of my life, and have only been living here in florida for a little over a year. Money and my girlfriend are a factor in the equation, so it wouldnt be possible to go somewhere else right now..

[Jason Manley]

you have the right idea....i did nothing but figure work for six years...keep away from the dragons and robots til you get your skills....at least on a full time basis.


you know...you dont have to go to ringling right away...you can go to MCC or somewhere local and take your figure classes and GET ALL YOUR BASIC CLASSES OUT OF THE WAY...that way when you do shell out the big bucks for school you can take the studio classes and interesting electives instead of the english and basic math which costs thousands less at the community college down the street....be smart if you are short on cash...


good luck


j

[I.was.ink]

Originally posted by Jason Manley
you have to go learn to draw and paint from life. THAT IS THE ONLY THING THAT SHOULD CONCERN ALL OF YOU. Once you can do that...you can do industrial design...you can do conceptual art...you can do gallery work...you can do comics...you can do 3d texture work...you can do a shitload of different things. you follow me? it is all about the basics. get the basics down!..then move on to what it is that you are painting.

Just wanted to say kudos on these fine words of yours Jason. I have believed that and know that that is the way to go for a couple of years now. I still can't believe how many people get a computer and get photoshop, illustrator, painter, and all those other programs, but don't know jack about drawing or painting. That is really upsetting to see...

I just wanted to give my two cents on what you said Jason. Thanks for all the feedback you have given on this site. I really appreciate it and have learned so much from you. THANKS!

I just wish I could meet you in person to tell you that. Oh well.....maybe some day!:)

O

[Monica]

Yeah Jason that sounds like me, anime is the dead give away, but the other stuff sounds right too. LOL, I never knew he drew me, no wonder he wouldn't let me see some of his sketchbooks sometimes ;p You should see if you could get him to post some of those, I'd love to see them.

I had a few friends who went to pre-college at Ringling. They all really enjoyed it, so I'm sure they would all recommend it to you guys that are thinking about going.

[pibb991]

"The majority of people I was in class with couldn't draw and had a hard time improving. I don't think I'm a great artist, I'm no where near conceited and I hate to say this, but there were a lot of really bad artists there, my required high school art class on a whole was better. And that really drags the entire class down, it's hard to improve in that kind of environment."


i go to a public university and i can definitely relate to what you are saying. the majority of my school(even drawing and painting majors) are more into installation art than learning the fundamentals. i've seen more installations with meat hanging from pantyhose than quality traditional work. i look at a lot of the artists on this website and the old masters to keep myself motivated and push myself harder. i applied to ringing for CA and am waiting to hear back. i feel kind of silly almost starting over at 23, but i know ill be more prepared since ive only focused on traditional drawing/painting than i would have after high school.

[hexodeci]

more than half the CA first years seem to be over the age of 21 this year...so dont worry about "starting" over you will fit right in : )

[Deth Jester]

Dont feel weird man,

Me and my room mate are applying to go to art school now.. he is 21 and I turned 22 today.. Im gonna go in the spring.. I have 1 semester left till I get my BA... I think art school is great for people who come out of highschool knowing. THEY WANT and NEED to be an artist... But, for most of them, I would recomend going to a JC, or something and maybe finding out what they want to do... It took me 3 years to figure out what direction I needed to get going. So don't feel wierd, you happen to be at the right spot in life and realizing what you need.

peace.

[empty]

i didnt' start at ringling until i was 21. i think i fared better because i was older, and i had gone to other colleges. i knew by the time i got to ringling that art is what i really wanted to do. i concentrated a lot more and learned more because of it. i think if i would had gone at a younger age i wouldn't have gotten as much out of the experience.

[Blackhawk]

Pibb, age is not a limitation, it is only an excuse. If you want to go for it, do it, don't get hung up on age numbers.

[Scratched Glass]

hes def right. most my friends and classmates age range from 20-30. I dont even see age anymore, and i dont think anyone else does either. if its what you wanna do, no matter what the subject, do it. you'll be happy you did

[Punkmonkey]

Hello, all! I'm new to this site (referred here by a friend from New York -- not sure if he posts here or not), and I'm glad I found it -- seems like there's a wealth of info to glean and whatnot. Anywho, I've just found out I've been accepted to Ringling in the fall and am preparing to move from North Carolina to Florida in the next several months. I look forward to seeing some of you there!
By the way, I'll be 28 frakkin' years old by the time the semester starts, so don't feel bad about getting a late start for those of you whom that applies to.

I actually applied and was accepted 2 years ago, but my wife and I got pregnant and decided to hold off on the school thing for a bit. I'm really excited, though -- time to get my ass in gear!:D
Any advice you guys and gals have for newbies like myself concerning the school would be much appreciated!

[pibb991]

thanks everyone for the encouraging words:D . i got accepted to ringling today and i cant wait to get down there. my fourth and final college(i hope)

[clayrodery v.03]

wow, thats awesome guys, i recently just got accepted too. What major are you two gonna be in? I'm gonna be a CA. See ya'll in August! :)

clay

[pibb991]

congradulations! yeah ill be ca too

[Punkmonkey]

Illustration major for me!

[Gnurt]

I would like to advertise a school....its not an art school, but it is in Florida!...and it has some DAMN talented students, who may or may not get the pub they deserve b/c they dont go to an art school.

The Digital Worlds Institute (http://www.digitalworlds.ufl.edu/people/das2003/default.htm)

..and check me my out...I'm the 2nd asian guy from the top.

[weapon82]

I'll be there in Spring '04 hopefully ;p

[DragonGX]

CAn you attend ringling on a part time basis? or is it full time only?

I have to work a full time job, and I dont know if I could handle going to ringling full time plus working at my full time job..

Anyone know anyhting about that? I really want to start school, but MCC doesnt haev any good art classes..

[Gnurt]

be where in the spring weaponx?

[weapon82]

Ringling. I didn't see your post above.

[John Doe Humpface]

interesting discussion, i too graduated from the RIngling CA department and made for myself the opportunity to enroll in the Fine Arts Minor program. Fortunately I had transfer credits which allowed me the time to have the minor. One great piece of advice for the CA students, which I am now realizing having recently graduted and am seeing how difficult it can be to break into the competitive gaming industry. When it finally comes time to do your thesis: if you want to work in games when you finish, do your research on games and how they are made. Focus your thesis on that, use low polys (even though the engines are getting better and will eventually be able to handle complex geometry in the near future) work the textures enormously, display the variety of talents you acquired in the foundation courses and learn about lighting. If you have a chance take a studio lighting course from the photography department. (i know you all have time for at least one or two electives). If you know you want to model make your thesis look like a modeling masterpiece, if you want to animate, animate very few characters/objects very well.
I've been to every company in Austin (also sent my reel around the country to some studios in CA and IL) and they have all said basically the same thing about my reel, "your stuff looks good, but it doesn't show the experience we are looking for." Good luck with your thesis if you remember anything, do what you want don't let the instructors persuade you otherwise (unless you are going to fail miserably)
as for me I continue to paint...

[Payback]

First off, sorry for bumping this thread into action again.

Originally posted by Scratched Glass
hes def right. most my friends and classmates age range from 20-30. I dont even see age anymore, and i dont think anyone else does either. if its what you wanna do, no matter what the subject, do it. you'll be happy you did

Damn, I guess I have some time to make my dream come true then. (I'm nineteen and not a very skilled artist) :D Sweet, cause I've been extremely worried about my chances to become a professional artist. Especially after reading this thread, with Mr. Manley, saying things about versatile skills and how he did basic lifedrawing for six years etc etc

I guess this is as good a time as any to start with that. :D Thanks Jason for giving me this info, about the basics-thing. I've basically been drawing way over my head, hehe...

Now I have some questions...

What exactly is Graphic Design and Illustration? What does that really include, or what's the difference? I've never really grasped that. I know it's a stupid question but I'd really like it answered.

And a question for Manley. You said that one of the best things about Ringling was their connection to companies and their contacts etc, and I was wondering... I live in Sweden see, and naturally that sort of kills the chances of getting contacts... anywhere really, except in Sweden I suppose. So this worries me still. Do you think, with your background, that someone outside of the US that hasn't gone to Ringling, for example, would be able to get a job in this industry, provided of course that his skills was equal to the ones you find at Ringling?

I hope you understand what I'm getting at. Of course I'm not saying that I would be that person, I'm just trying to assess my future chances, if I have any at all. Maybe I'll just work at the postoffice for the rest of my life. ;)

[wassermelone]

I got accepted to Ringling in CA starting August 2003...
This is REALLY nice info.

Man... Everyone who has been accepted seems older than me. Im only 17 =/
Oh well.

Man I am going to work my butt off at Ringling...

[illustrator77]

Hey there,

Just a bit of encouragement for all ya older want to be students.....It is NEVER too late to go to school...This is my First year at Ringling and I am 25. This has been the best year of my life (education wise) because I have learned so much and have growen as an artist. If your thinking about going to (or back to school) I would encourage you very much. It would be better to get a degree in somthing that you enjoy rather than work at your local WalMart and not enjoy it as much as as you could working in your dream career.

Oh and to all ya that made it to Ringling for Fall next year CONGRADULATIONS!!! bur remember to Behave as I will be an RA next year and would hate to write ya up heh ehehehehehehe.....If you made it here do you know which dorm you will be living in yet???

josh

[hexodeci]

god have mercy on you if you get josh as a RA ;o)

-shane

[illustrator77]

Ha ha ha ha ha Shane you make me laugh.....and where will you be living next year......he he he he he.....mental note* keep a close eye on Shane and give him no slack what so ever.....Mwwaaah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha aaah! :firedevil
Josh

[MindCandyMan]

Hey all I just read through this whole thread because I am considering going to ringling in the fall of 2004. I already have my bachelors degree and I have been taking more undergrad classes here at University of Pennsylvania as well while working here that should transfer over. I am thinking because of taking all those classes before I may be able to finish in three years...not sure though...I may want to take longer just to get better. I would want to major in illustration but if I need to learn computer animation to get a job than I could take those classes as well I guess. At any rate I wanted to know a couple things...is it easy to find work down there? Also...will I have the ability to teach in the future with a degree from ringling?...although I'd rather work for a company or something similar...I would also love to teach at some point if possible. Thanks guys...

I think there is an advantage I would have there being a little older (23) and just a smidge wiser...and having to pay for it fully myself hehe (no after high school parential help)...I would work my butt raw while I was there...

[PT Osborne]

just a little fyi, at ringling illustration majors cannot take computer animation courses... some of the illustration courses are open to other majors, but not all of them either.

just to let you know
-Pat

[pibb991]

mindcandy-
if you've taken your basic core drawing classes i bet that would transfer. i have over a 100 hours of credit but i'll still be a freshman ca major because the sophmore class is full and the courses need to be taken sequentially-- but i dont know if that is the case with illustration. when i visited last summer they told me not to finish my bfa so i could still be eligable for different loans so that might effect you since you already have your undergrad degree. i'm 23 as well and iknow that i'll definitely do better now than i would have going there straight after highschool. good luck and if its what you want to do don't let any setbacks stop you:)

[MindCandyMan]

Oh that's good to know that the computer animation classes aren't open to illustration majors. Illustration is what I seem to be gravitating towards anyway.

Good call pibb...as long as I can pay my bills and put food on my wife's plate I won't let anything stop me. Hey do you guys have to take phys. ed and crap like that? I would already have that stuff out of the way so that would be good.

[MindCandyMan]

I had another quick question...there are a bunch of really good fine art schools around me in philly...univeristy of the arts...etc... Is there something that ringling can offer that these fine art schools couldn't?

[David]

Hey I'm from Philly too! I can't really answer what Ringling can give you that other schools can't. But UArts has a really strong Illustration department. They give you a lot of figure work.

To save money you can do your first year at Community College of Philadelphia and transfer over to UArts.

Going to UArts may work out better since you are already in Philly. They should have an open house in the fall. Check it out or arrange a tour.

Hope this helps

David

[weapon82]

Originally posted by MindCandyMan
I had another quick question...there are a bunch of really good fine art schools around me in philly...univeristy of the arts...etc... Is there something that ringling can offer that these fine art schools couldn't?

Connections to industry.