Realistic vs. Cartoon/Anime Style

[ohGr]

I've just recently taken a real disgust toward cartoons and anime in concept art. I personally don't find it nearly as respectable as realisitic art where form is so real it seems you can almost touch it. It seems I'm the only one who believes cartoony and anime styles don't belong in concept art because when I see people on this forum posting clearly distinct anime as concept, people simply applaude and there is NO critique at all for them. They just say "great!" and when there's someone who does a damn great job on a figure, people flood him with negative critiques on the smallest of problems (and no, I'm not talking about me).

What I'm curious about is if I'm breaking my balls for nothing doing realistic drawings when game designers would prefer seeing anime and cartoons instead of realistic-looking figures?

[danteort]

No, I don't think learning to draw realistically is EVER a bad thing. In fact, for the most part I'd say it's required, since that's how you learn to understand things like form, light, and shadow.

On a realistic drawing, it's completely obvious to most people when something isn't right. So until you can nail everything perfectly, it means your technique isn't where it should be, meaning you still don't have complete control over every mark you make. Until you do have this control, then your "cartoony" drawings will never be exactly what you're aiming for. You want things to be exaggerated because YOU meant for them to be, not because you can't draw properly.

That's the short answer.

Oh, and so-called "cartoony" work is no less valid than realistic work. You'd better try accepting that, or you probably won't get very far, since having that sort of mindset stems from something deeper.

[ohGr]

Originally posted by danteort
No, I don't think learning to draw realistically is EVER a bad thing. In fact, for the most part I'd say it's required, since that's how you learn to understand things like form, light, and shadow.

On a realistic drawing, it's completely obvious to most people when something isn't right. So until you can nail everything perfectly, it means your technique isn't where it should be, meaning you still don't have complete control over every mark you make. Until you do have this control, then your "cartoony" drawings will never be exactly what you're aiming for. You want things to be exaggerated because YOU meant for them to be, not because you can't draw properly.

That's the short answer.

Oh, and so-called "cartoony" work is no less valid than realistic work. You'd better try accepting that, or you probably won't get very far, since having that sort of mindset stems from something deeper.

Why I bring this up is because I don't find cartoons or anime nearly as impressive as realistic. I almost find anime an embarassment to art for its absurd styling. It never appears three dimensional nor does it even mirror the figure in any realistic fashion but it's considered flawless. Why is this technique so endorsed? When I visited the Art Institute of Pittsburgh, the first thing the game art & design instructor said was he was looking for artists who could draw realistic life drawing. This pleased me because he even said he was not looking for cartoons or anime. And I see why but I don't see why this forum supports anime concept art so much.

[SylkX]

I think concept art is a way of getting an idea across. Whether it is realistic or a simpler style doesn't matter. As long as what the artist wants to convey is understood I don't think it matters. Yoshitaka Amano, the lead designer for the final fantasy series started off with anime but his style has evolved into something unique and interesting.

[Gaussian3d]

This is what I think...
There are things we deem visually beautiful and forms/shapes we do not.
There is a reason why, and this reason, I believe, is a certain ratio (phi) between the forms, shapes, etc, of a particular design.
Human forms, and other plants, animals, etc, all fall, on way or the other, along this fine line. So, when someone successfully draws something from life, we see that beauty shine through.
When someone successfully distorts, or makesa "realistic" charicature out of real life, we still see that beauty, because the distortions probably fall somewhere between this ratio... and the closer it is, the more beautiful, or believable, it becomes, I think.

So it is with cartoons. Whether or not they have "realistic rendering" is, I believe, a choice of style. Anime is a more rigidly set style than cartoons, anime's proportions have been somewhat loosely defined, already, constructing something, ideally, beautiful.
All design falls into this.
I believe both sides of the coin are great, because one attunes your skill of awareness, of becoming a crystalline filter between what we see and put down on paper, and the other traisn our ability to create within this framework of beauty that we call design.
Creativity is a great thing.

In this sense, I believe, we can observe the connections between life and "created" design, and the value of both.
I also believe that studying life, life forms, and the abundance of design already available in it, can improve our own sense of style, allowing us to create from our imagination in a form that is believable.
Not all cartoons, anime, or life drawings, in this point of view, are "Believable" then. It all depends on the skill of the creator.

Just my thoughts on the subject. :chug:

[Velo]

Just a little note of my observances on this topic. Generally schools don't condone anime or comic drawing because people who do it often learn by copying already existing drawn materials exlusively. The ability to "draw hair just like dragon ball z" doesn't necessarily help you learn to draw any other kind of hair or hair style, or anything else, for that matter. However, some manga/anime/cartoon artists actually study from life and use their knowledge of anatomy and proportion to make stylistic decisions when they draw from imagination, blending realistic and comic. You can almost always tell the difference between anime/comic drawing done by a person who can ONLY draw in that style, and similarly stylized drawings done by a person that could also handle a still life or live model without much trouble. Anime and cartoon drawings can display a level of skill with line, rythm, color, light, etc that just shows - whether the subject matter is stylized or not.

[Gaussian3d]

Well stated :)

[sone_one]

It seems I'm the only one who believes cartoony and anime styles don't belong in concept art because when I see people on this forum posting clearly distinct anime as concept, people simply applaude and there is NO critique at all for them.

where would be the point to critizise a stlye deciscion, other than "i (/dont) like it"? its much more reasonable to crit something thats goals been realistic appearence

what is it that bugs you? that all those who draw cartoon/anime stlyed pieces get praise? aint that jealousy?

i seriously question your goal here....

[Darkstrider]

I think when people post life drawings or realistic drawings in here they're mostly looking for critique.

Critique isn't the same as tearing something apart. Comments on what could be improved aren't negative, though it can be easy to interpret them that way. People who critique other people's work are, for the most part, trying to help each other improve. I just think that realistic drawing invites critique while stylized art really doesn't.

[ohGr]

Originally posted by sone_one


where would be the point to critizise a stlye deciscion, other than "i (/dont) like it"? its much more reasonable to crit something thats goals been realistic appearence

what is it that bugs you? that all those who draw cartoon/anime stlyed pieces get praise? aint that jealousy?

i seriously question your goal here....

What bothers me about it is how much more difficult it is to draw a realistic life drawing versus an unrealistic anime drawing and have people praise only the anime drawing and tear the realistic drawing apart. Personally, even if the life drawing does indeed suffer a little, I give them more credit at trying to attempt to actually draw from life than try and make some distorted cartoon-like style that can be whipped up in a matter of seconds.

My point is is that I don't believe anime should be as highly praised as life drawing simply because life drawing has boundries whereas anime is drawn flat and its bounds are unlimited; proportions are non-existent because the artist created no bounds for such imperfections.

This is what irritates me: how these dime-a-dozen anime artists create this cheap style that anyone can do and get their asses kissed for whatever they lash out. I'll admit that I'm damn jealous of the attention they get but I'm not at all jealous of the quality of their work. I mean I'll find posts where people just go on and on about how great the anime drawing is and then I find this one thread where a guy did a superb job of figure drawing and all I see is someone post "good job, proportions fit" and that was all. This really bothered me. Like that was all he was looking for, a flaw to point at and expose but finding none, he moved on, not at all commenting in-depth on the magnificent job the artist did as he would have if he had made a flaw.

I'm just a little enraged right now and if I offended you, sorry, this is just my opinion.

[sone_one]

you didnt offend me at all... im not into anime myself, but i know to make it look really good it takes a lot of knownledge.

if you dont like some pieces... dont bother and move on. theres so much for everyones taste, i dont see the reason in stoping by by something i donot like anyway... or to think about it.

do, observe and enjoy things you like, and dont put your time into things you dont.

[pandawhipped]

Originally posted by ohGr
some distorted cartoon-like style that can be whipped up in a matter of seconds.

Chances are it took that artist years of study to get to the point of being able to whip out a cartoon drawing. Just because it only takes a minute doesn't mean it doesn't take talent.


My point is is that I don't believe anime should be as highly praised as life drawing simply because life drawing has boundries whereas anime is drawn flat and its bounds are unlimited; proportions are non-existent because the artist created no bounds for such imperfections.


That's EXACTLY why people draw cartoons, because the bounds are limitless!



This is what irritates me: how these dime-a-dozen anime artists create this cheap style that anyone can do and get their asses kissed for whatever they lash out.

Ummm, sorry dude but no, not just anyone can do it and make it work. A LOT of people can copy anime/cartoons and make it look pretty close to what the original artist drew, but to draw cartoons with your own style, and from your head takes a lot of skill to do properly. A good artist can see the difference between mediocre comic artists like Akira Toriyama and designers like Hayao Miyazaki and Katsuhiro Otamu. There are plenty of other good, and probably better anime artists out there, but I can't think of 'em off the top of my head.

[sixBlade]

I have a sort of similar feeling about anime but its also different; I quite like the look of professional anime, but I hate how all these 12-15 year olds are all trying to draw anime and then anyone whos half-good at drawing in that style will simply get 1000 replies of "great" "awesome" etc and no crit at all becuase these children on the most part dont even know/care about crit they just want people to say their arts good.

It annoys me a lot because these people keep drawing in the same way making the same mistakes.. I've seen so many bad anime artists than any other form of art (including non-anime comic art) that are just doing what they learnt from reading a tutorial on polykarbon and their latest episode of DBZ. They never improve and that annoys me.

I guess it probably shouldnt tho :/

[matttaylor]

Just a thought: Warhol got the very same sort of critique as his work became more well known, and in comparision to classical art technique, there might be some justification there. But, it's simplicity in that respect managed to carry a fairly significant social meaning, despite it's technical imperfections as seen by some.

Additionally, Anime carries a powerful social significance in Japan, so there is some validity to it I would imagine. Technical prowess not withstanding.

[Gaussian3d]

Anime is a set style, way of portraying figures, etc...
Cartoons are not the same as anime... they are only limited as far as their distortion from reality by the artist's imagination.

Do you have a problem with the praise anime artists get or the praise cartoon artists get?

[kennygeeze]

I think as far as pro art concepts in movies film, etc.... the concepts would likely be in the chosen style of the art-director.

I'd imagine the concept art for half life2 would have alot of proportionally realistic subject matter (when conceptualizing the people anyways)

and if the concept artist is working on the next super mario game, he wouldn't be drawing realistically proportioned humans/animals because it doesn't really fit.

Unless the media that was being produced was going to be in an anime-ish style... there would be little point in them drawing in that style while making the conceptual work.

[sixBlade]

but warhol didnt have millions of children copying his style amateurishly

[gekitsu]

i see style choice as one more technique to give away information about the character.

character for a military shooter in the line of the rainbow six games? style that fits best is something that looks realistic.
character for a fantasy tactical rpg like ff tactics, advance wars or disgaea? not so easy... the whole concept of the game universe somehow dictates what style kind of characters can live in it.

style also tells about the game, the whole scenario it is set in. proper style choice is just as much a detail to character design as costume details are.

as for technical prowess:
of course, there is more craft work in a fully rendered naturalistic drawing. the amount of sheer prowess is however the same as in a well done cartoon. you wont be able to draw your cartoon figure from every angle as long as you dont know what it looks like from every angle (same with anime btw... so much for anime being constructed flatly - not neccesarily).
did you ever try capturing the very essence of a character in a strictly simplified drawing? in a naturalistic drawing, you can escape down the route of endless detail. this route, however is not available in cartoons. you can only draw a few shapes and features and they have to sit on the spot to tell their story.
cartoons and naturalism are two different disciplines - they are related somehow but they strife for completely different goals.
that is why the comments vary in threads:
a cartoon/anime drawing is clear to focus on essence, stylization and such things, whereas anatomical correctness and trueness to detail is something the naturalist looks for.

if you dont find anime tangible at all, take a look at prom's megaman redesigns.

[gaboartpage]

This thread put me on fire !!!!!:evilbat:

Anime style is so easy to copy for most people
because all the VISUAL INFORMATION has been
analized and STYLIZED so with so few
stroke lines you can obtain an expression and
feelings that would be so hard to make
with realistic images thats why new artists are
attracted to this powerful style of expression

its simple easy and you obtain good results
in so little time and also some quality... and
doing realistic is hard, you have to practice
and study hard

I in a far future i would i like to do anime style
because thats what i love and like and now
when i try to do it, i find it EXTREMELY difficult
to accomplish such stylized and beautiful
anime drawings, but the anime
manga artists that i like are ACADEMIC
and i am almost sure they practice figurative
art, and YES theres a loooooot of anime crap
but there are great artists too and good animes

Drawings are "PLAIN" because of Japanese
art culture, check Japanese art history and
they tend to express more with so little...

and Akira Toriyama is not mediocre he is
for me the SHONEN manga KING of Japan
his sories are fun to read and has great
purity and technique and has one of the most
original character style in the world !!!!!!!
everyone recognizes him, why would he be
mediocre....

And some say thats anime is Plain, well
i dare you to do some ""Plain characters
like the ones ahead
and rotate them, give them
personality , depict age, mood,
etnicy, angle of camera
etc, etc, etc..." with so few lines
(even though i know some CA members
could do it :eek: and even better)

Satoshi Kon is one of my personal Heroes
and i wish i someday would be as good as him
heres some of his drawings:

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~xw7s-kn/chara03.html
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~xw7s-kn/chara02.html
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~xw7s-kn/chara06.html
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~xw7s-kn/chara12.html

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~xw7s-kn/pictures.html

please continue the discussion its interesting

Saludos a todos :D :D

[pandawhipped]

Originally posted by gaboartpage
and Akira Toriyama is not mediocre he is
for me the SHONEN manga KING of Japan
his sories are fun to read and has great
purity and technique and has one of the most
original character style in the world !!!!!!!
everyone recognizes him, why would he be
mediocre....

Hey dude, mediocre was probably just a poor choice of words. I certainly don't think he sucks, I used to LOVE dbz with a passion. It was just the first name I could think of that I didn't like anymore. Yeah he does have a very distinct style, but its all a matter of taste i guess. I just had to post cause I thought it was funny the original poster was so annoyed by kids copying anime and getting praised for it . I mean...who cares? When I was a kid I did nothing but copy anime, and people always told me how good I was. I didn't get a big ego from it, and I eventually realized it wasn't helping me grow, so I moved on.

The guy you posted is good, I wish I knew some of the newer artists. Pretty much the only books I read are by Rumiko Takahashi, and Katsuhiro Otomo

[Aerythes]

Gaussian3D, I think your insight into this issue is great. Not many people can analyse it as well as you did in that post. :)

I've to add that it's easy for people to underestimate a certain style just because it has "fewer lines" or "less shades". Anime is a term used (outside of Japan) to mean the cartoons that come from Japan. And, it's not just one style. There's a multitude of them if you look carefully. Some of them are easier to draw, and some are harder. And, to draw the harder anime styles as well as good anime artists is no simple task. If you don't believe me, just try to draw Nobuteru Yuuki or Narumi Kakinouchi's style as well as them.

As to the popularity of anime as a source for wannabe artists to copy from, think of it this way. They are just trying to draw something that they enjoy a lot, that they find beautiful and attractive. And, many of them would not even have motivation to draw anything at all if they haven't seen anime. In those cases (and I dare to claim there're many such cases), anime help them get onto the road to art that they may not have travelled otherwise.

Yeah, I understand the feeling of seeing mediocre anime fan art getting tons of praises. That happens everywhere, though, not just with anime fan art. I read american comics when I was young. In those days, some of them have really crappy artwork. But I still see readers writing mail saying those are the best artwork in any comic. :rolleyes: Such things occur everywhere, and frankly, it's no biggie.

Please pardon my weak english and any grammar mistakes.

[D.O.Jones]

Umm... My thoughts. Drawing for cartoons, animation etc. takes a VERY good understanding of form. Look at Vilppu's site (www.vilppustudio.com) He's an excellent traditional artist and yet he spends most of his time teaching animators. Cartoons may be easy to copy because of there simple lines, but putting life into those lines is not simple. Try it for yourself, If you can produce a super awesome character in a few seconds like ou say then I'll eat my hat (after buying one).

My feeling is that concept art is about the visual communication of designs and ideas. If anime succesfully comunicates these ideas then thats fine, no need for some super detailed rendering.

Sorry if thats been said already or something and peace out mr. Hatey McJealousy man.

As for people not receiving crits for anime drawings, I haven't seen this happen on this board so much. But it is silly, Yes you can do a bad job of a stylised picture.

[Gunyouken]

My view on this whole issue is that art whether it is anime or realistic or whatever gives people some form of expression, some people find it fun and worthwhile to draw anime type drawings, they don't have to spend hours and hours to perfect it, I also feel that some people are just too overwhelmed with the perfectionism in realistic art that it scares them.

I also take my hat of to those that actually draw thousands and thousands of single frame anime drawings to make a movie, or cartoon... that is a feat in itself!

atleast anime drawings can be concidered art

What gets me are those paintings of lines or spashes of paint or a toilet roll that is at a strange angle or someone that puked in a cup or a monkey that paints with his fingers.. etc etc, and then people pay thousands of bucks for it! Whats up with that shit?

ciao

[Derlaine]

I am bored at work so here are my comments:

- I've done both realistic and anime stuff.

I like anime precisely because you don't have to adhere to propotions in real life. Your imagination is your only bound.

Realistic stuff is fun too from time to time, to get the details down and propotions accurate, get the colors right, that is a great challenge. But y'know, it's kind of imagination-less to recreate something you saw in real life.

It's also fast to whip up something in anime style and communicate something to the viewer. To me, there is great joy in being able to make someone laugh, make someone's day better with an image. Most realistic pictures make you go WOW LIKE A PHOTO! but cartoons are the ones that split your sides laughing, and nothing's better than laughing till you cry ;o;

- Yes there is a lot of trashy anime art around, yeck. I think of anime as movies, there are lots of crappy movies around but there are good ones. It's such a wide and diverse area there's got to be something you like.

- yes lots of kids like to go AWESOME COOL etc etc at any anime image they see, especially if its a character they like. I've seen a lot of horrible horrible pictures getting praised madly and it is aggravating at first.

But it's important to remember a lot of them don't have art training either so anything remotely art is impressive to them, just like anything remotely math/science is scary to an artist ;)

Just shrug it off and do your own thing. It's exactly like everyone gushing over Titanic but your favorite movie doesn't get any recognition, or those modern artists getting millions of dollars for an empty canvas. Just enjoy what you enjoy, and if others don't find it as chill as you do...hey what to do right?

- Off my head, some good "anime" style artists to check out:

theyre hard to find images for though...so maybe you'll only see crappy images from them online but rest assured they have some amazing stuff around~ maybe i'll post some later when I get home/am bored.

Inoue Takehiko - more realistic than most
Hiroaki Samura - poetic, almost fine artsy at times
That dude who did the artbook Cannabis - forgot his name
Akihiro Yamada - like Mucha meets Anime
That artist for Castlevania - forgot name :P
Jo-Chen (www.jo-chen.com i tihnk)

[WildSpruceMoose]

Everyone in this thread is agreeance and doesn't realize it. The one underlying message in all posts is "anime is good when the artist who did anime learned the basics first". What I hate is the younger anime artists who only draw anime who refuse, absolutely refuse to take criticism. Then again I just hate that attitude in general so...

P.S. I am willing to admit I can be immune to criticism sometimes too, but I normally feel guilty when I realize I have done such a thing to stunt my artistic growth.

[elboy]

this is a great thread. However, I'm going to reply to comments from pandawhipped and gaboartpage regarding Akira Toriyama.
I couldn't believe it when you first described Toriyama as mediocre, pandawhipped, but I'm glad to see you explain your remark. And I was glad to see someone show their support for Toriyama, gaboartpage.
We all know Toriyama's signature character design, but even his architectural, vehicular, and robotic designs are creative and unique. I know it's silly, but I'm actually turned off by the success of the DBZ cartoon (maybe this turned you off too, panda?). But I still love Akira Toriyama and the Dragon Ball manga (not to mention Dr. Slump, Sandland, his work on Chrono Trigger, and more). I'm doubly impressed w/ him because he also writes his stories, and he has such an imagination (people's hair turning yellow when they're mad??). Aside from my personal admiration, much of the current generation of manga artists list Akira Toriyama as one of their all time favorites and a major influence in their careers.
If I come across sounding like an Akira Toriyama fanboy, it's probably because I am.
Regarding the theme of this thread, I think developing artists can spend their time doing more constructive things than copying anime/manga (like realistic studies), but I did the same thing. As long as they're having fun, right?

[sixBlade]

Originally posted by WildSpruceMoose
What I hate is the younger anime artists who only draw anime who refuse, absolutely refuse to take criticism. Then again I just hate that attitude in general so...



I CANT AGREE MORE!! I just had an episode of one of those in another forum. Her style wasnt anime but it was actually very good, and she downright refused to accept any criticism - she even asked admins to remove me from the board for it (they publicly refused though, saying my crit was in fact very good) but still, it really pisses me off when people can't take criticism about their work.. especially these 'I don't learn about anatomy/lighting/etc because I do ANIME!' people.

[pandawhipped]

Originally posted by elboy
I know it's silly, but I'm actually turned off by the success of the DBZ cartoon (maybe this turned you off too, panda?).

absolutely. I remember when I was 12 finding DBZ stickers in the local laser disk rental store and nearly wetting my pants. Now its all over the place and just doesn't look as cool.

Toriyama certainly does have a unique style, but I guess whether or not one likes it is just a matter of taste. I know he does the books really fast, probably doing a few pages a day, but it just became too repetative. Its the same thing over and over, and all the characters look so similar with their MC hammer pants. While he might have had a cool idea, he used it way too much, and everything he did looked like it came straight out of a dbz comic. I thought Chrono Trigger (and everything else he did) was dragon ball with new characters when I first saw it. To me it just became a gimic rather than a style.

Anyway thats something that could be argued for hours (just like the topic of this thread) and no one would get anywhere or change their minds. Thanks for your input though elboy.

I will say though, it was pretty obvious that Toriyama was not in charge of DBGT. Something about it just looked different. It was subtle, but it was there.

[elboy]

Originally posted by pandawhipped:
I remember when I was 12 finding DBZ stickers in the local laser disk rental store and nearly wetting my pants.
haha, good ol laser disks. and word on the mc hammer pants too. Reading my first post makes it seem like I think Akira Toriyama is the greatest artist ever (I certainly do not). I just really admire the guy, but I think that's been established. Sorry to turn this into an Akira Toriyama thread.
I like the topic of this thread, but like pandawhipped alluded to, I don't know if there's too much more worth saying. That is, there are lots of valid points, but can anything be added that will actually change people's minds? No one has to answer. Just thinking aloud... or w/ my fingertips.... .ehh....

[dns2k]

i personally look to the ones who obviously know what they are doing and choose to trun their style torwards the cartoony. look at Joe Mad! (battle chasers) and Yokito Kisiro(Battle Angel Alita) they are some truly awesome artists who just by looking at their work show great understanding of anatomy, composition and stylization. they have grown much further than many artists have and chosen to simplify, and make their work speak more for them. an untrainded eye might just see cartoony/anime figures but on closer inspection you can see the training beneath the flashy look.


a lot of anime is crap just like a lot of american comics are... but thats because the artists had no foundation before they entered the field and did not build on it.

same thing with 2d movies... anastasia and ghost in the shell both show two different styles of telling a good story in a truly breathtaking manner as opposed to some of the other truly crappy films out there. (you know the straight to video ones i am talking about)

-dns

[gaboartpage]

Hey pandawhipped its not personal
or anything, man and i am glad that
you moved on, that thread of you of watts
its awesome i can REALLY see advances
in your drawings and your webpage stuff
is great :D
if only so many artist realize that:

TO DO GREAT MANGA you have to study
human figure at least and then make a
stilization or an interpretation of HUMAN
FIGURE, analize volume and form

artists that make MANGA studing reference
from another manga WILL HAVE A LIMITED
RANGE OF LEVEL of all the factors that
involve manga BUT this doesnt mean that
they will not be good, they will be limited
by stereotypes.....

Studying ACADEMIC KNOWLEDGE will make
your artwork REACH higher parts or different
and creative things in your artwork because
you will know why shadows go like this,
why this color combination looks good, how
to rotate this mechanical design, etc.....

So this guys who dont want critics , phfff
i guess they study from manga reference
maybe their EGOS are larger than their
"artwork" just the MASTERS when they reach
a level they realize they know less and need
improvement i think this is the right attitude
for always getting better ;)

and dont lose time making critics
to people who dont accept it, poor guys
they dont realize that they have sooooooo
many road to travel to become great artists

ONE has to be HUMBLE with our artworks,
even if you are a proffesional theres so many
talented people out there just take a peak
at this forum

Thanks for reading this, please continue
the disscusion
ohGr what do you think about all of this
thread responses????

My favorite ACADEMIC ARTISTS TO CHECK:
Ayami Kojima
Hiroaki Samura
Akihiro Yamada
Yoji Shinkawa
Nobuteru Yuuki
Satoshi Kon
Sonoda Kenichi (more pop)

Saludos a todos :) :) :)
Gabriel GArza

[cotron]

Originally posted by sixBlade
but warhol didnt have millions of children copying his style amateurishly

haha, you ever been to a fine arts' school show before? lots and lots of total rips.. not to mention wannabe pollacks, dalis, picassos, etc.... although rarely a wannabe sargent or rembrandt... :rolleyes:

[FlashFighter]

Hmm..... my opinion is that cartoons and anime are very much an art form on their own, and I find that I disagree with ohGr that a cartoon character can be whipped out in a couple of seconds..... I actually tend to find cartooning to be at times more diffucult than drawing from life, because not only must you know how the pose would look if it was done in a realistic fashion, but you must also come up with a way that you must distort it in a way that is visually pleasing.....

And yes..... some immature anime "artists" might make claims that they don't need to learn anatomy, or shading, or composition..... but their attidudes are reflected by their work.

[bahamut]

i agree that unrealistic styles are inferior to realistic styles, but you DO have to remember that not all manga&anime is the same! some mangas are actually drawn more anatomically correct than most "realistic" artists are capable of! The only reason we call these manga and not "realistic" is because of shading differences, but in the end thats a small part of the whole picture, and the rest is simply BETTER! (not in all, i know, but there are plenty)

to the butkissing part: the reason, why manga&anime are booming (ie having their asses kissed - selling millions), while all "realistic" western-style comics&cartoons has been losing importance for years, is because the creators of everything from superman to spawn to "the crow" are trying so hard to get their pictures so realistic (sometimes only: so complicated!), that they start fitting their story to their art, and end up forgetting some of the most important things, like STORY; (deep&interesting)CHARACTERS; WORLD etc...

the art is simply BLOCKING many western artists, and so the reason why these "japs" are getting so much praise is because they are getting the important things right...the art there is more of a helpalong to convey story etc, so it doesnt matter if it is (in most cases) inferior

[cheeseandbread]

First off, I love good manga and anime. It captures something that other types of art don't have. I love realistic artwork, too. Both require the same platform of knowledge to be worth looking at.

The whole arguement can be settled down to two things. I mean, really! Here it is:

Either the artist is good at what they do and have a truely strong appeal (with characterization, technical aptitude, and good color theory, etc...)

or,

They suck or need improvement!

And keep in mind that the majority of the people showering crappy knock-off manga or anime (don't confuse manga with anime--manga are japanese comics mainly done in lineart and screentone, and anime is the industry of japanese animation done in cel style for the most part. Both have more variations than ohGr may realize ) with praise are young teens or anime/manga zealots!

People who know good anime/manga (and those who hate or dislike those styles in general), don't usually comment on the shitty artwork that has flooded the internet in the last half decade or so. That just leaves the surfers 'looking' for exactly that type of art. Remember, there are millions and millions of the target audience on the net that love anything anime/manga.

To each his/her own, I always say.

P.S. badly done anime/manga art that never progresses pisses me off, too, but I don't pay them any mind. It just gives them that much more attention than they deserve.

[cfitzart]

anime is great, fine art is great, they each have their place. what are you going to do? make a cartoon movie or comic strip from finished oil paintings? lol id like to see you try doing a million of those.

[|NTeRN]

Originally posted by ohGr


Why I bring this up is because I don't find cartoons or anime nearly as impressive as realistic. I almost find anime an embarassment to art for its absurd styling. It never appears three dimensional nor does it even mirror the figure in any realistic fashion but it's considered flawless. Why is this technique so endorsed? When I visited the Art Institute of Pittsburgh, the first thing the game art & design instructor said was he was looking for artists who could draw realistic life drawing. This pleased me because he even said he was not looking for cartoons or anime. And I see why but I don't see why this forum supports anime concept art so much.

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19485

not all stylized concepts are bad, infact some lok better stylized then realistic... it all depends on what the concept is for. for instance concepts for a movies character would be best done as realistic as possible, while in some cases games could be done in the style the game is headed towards.

its ignorant to say that you dont find it repectable. Honestly if someone spends a long time on a piece and you blow it off because its stylized then your the one not being respectful. this is a lot of really good anime and other styled concepts out there that are just as good and any realistic piece.

a lot of instructors dont like anime because a lot of beginniers get stuck on drawing only dragonball z which really f**ks up your realistic drawing skills.

[AnarchyAo2]

I think that realistic art is more respectable, because anime is copied by so many people now days. You can look at one person's anime drawing, and look at another and not know that 2 different people drew them. Its all the same! Plus, with anime, people buy those dumb books that promise to make you a better anime artist. Well, I know first hand what those books are like, their just an archive of different eyes, hairstyles and shapes of faces. So in order to make a character, you pick a face, then an eye, then a hairstyle, and then you have a character. Thats why I call anime, "Mr. Potato-Head Art", because all your doing is plugging in eyes, noses, and hair. Now, where is the respect in that? What kind of pride is in anime? There isn't much. Many young anime artists think that anime is BEST, there is nothing better, how stupid is that? Now, don't get wrong, there are some really good anime artists. They know what their doing. They know how to make original characters. THOSE anime artists are respectful, in my opinion.

Now, if you limit yourself to just anime, think about how many techniques and methods you are missing? Anime is a very shallow and encourages mindless copying. On the other hand, if you do realism and other areas of art, there are so many techniques, methods and media! You can use pastels, watercolor, oil paint, oil pastels, paint sticks, arcylics, etc... Now think about how many techniques there are in each of those? There is a lot. There is enough so that you can come up with your own style and have a unique technique that makes you reconized as an individual artist. Think again, how ignorant is it of you to limit yourself to one area of art, like anime, just because you see it on TV, games and movies? It would be like sitting in your closet for your whole life and not experiencing anything else and yet judging the outside world. Hell, you've got one life, you shouldn't limit yourself to one subject.

**********
An addition:
Drawing cartoons and anime is alright if you know the basic rules, like anatomy, basic drawing etc, because when you draw anime, your breaking the rules and the rules are meant' to be broken but only by the advanced (from Drawing from the Right Side of the Brain, if any reconizes it).

And if any of your anime artists (because I know there are a few out there in the forum), want to try out realistic art, go buy the book mentioned above. Drawing from the Right Side of the Brain. Its a great book.

[baquitania]

I understand your frustrations at the praise given to Anime work, but perhaps it comes from the fan base being so large, young, and loyal. Realistic work is not dissappearing by any means, and those who do it well can make you forget Anime... But it's apples and oranges.

I agree that those who have a prior knowledge of realistic drawing, make more convincing Anime, and stylization is one of the keys to the genre, much like the look of ink work to oil paintings, or for that matter comic books to graphic novel paintings.

When Anime is done well, you can see from a cell coloring the movement in it, while realism is that " photographic snapshot ", that moment in time of the Artist's mind. I put to you that doing it is not only hard, and time consuming, that is if it is done well, but that it can compare to the hours one puts into a painting. The end result is the same, accomplishment of a vision.

They taught comic book illustration when I was in college as an elective, but this was only offered after a first year of foundation life drawing... So there is something else going into the work besides copying a look... You really can tell the crap from the creme dela creme, because it shows. The figure will be sturdier, the attention to detail more ample, the facial expression will be less static. There are merits in everything is you look hard enough.

I think you would overcome some of your resentment, by taking a dissective approach and creating some Anime, Anime perhaps that might have your own flare shining through it... Sure this argument work the opposite way, and Anime artists should bone up on their anatomy (no pun intended)...

Japan added something to the collective when it created this artform, they took comicbooks one step further, without the budgets of Disney, and hopefully the praise it gets will transfer to classrooms someday...

B.

[paburrows]

I am a Character Designer from traditional US animation and I just wanted to say after reading some of these posts is that there is a lot more to the cartoony style than just whiping out drawings. animation does follow principles of proportion. While a character may have a nig head that just means that its 2 or 3 heads tall. Usually if one arm or leg is longer, shorter than normal the other arm leg is the same length. Whenever you see a cartoon done by someone who knows what they are doing there is always a great amount of thought that goes into the creation. The look of the character says a lot about a character and it takes a very skilled designer to be able to create a design that portrays the correct message.

While the japanese Anime style is not my favorate its important to study all artforms because it can give us inspiration. I love looking at video games, comic books, illustration and many other forms of art for my art.

[steve kim]

there's NOTHING unrealistic about anime, the neck down :).

even average to mediocre anime has figure and clothing drawing fairly accurately. i remember watching some card captor sakura (research purposes, really) and being like, hey, that's the styloid process, those ankle angles look really good, nice elbow placement, etc.

cartoons on the other hand are far more stylized. anatomy is generalized and simplified a whole lot more.

don't let the faces and bugged out eyes throw you off.

i personally think there's nothing like well done anime, nothing, it really is its own artform.

[DaemonMagus]

A few of you guys said that Anime/cartoons allowed you to express more and that realistic drawings required no imagination. I think that drawing realistically allows you to express more because you can show form. And about the no imagination thing, drawing realistically never meant only drawing things from life. I think concepts are more effective when they are drawn realistically because it is easier to understand, all the information is there and no guess work is involved. Some of you have argued that to draw anime really well takes a lot of skill, and although I don't exactly disagree that it takes skill, I highly doubt it takes as much as it would to render a realistic looking human in a dynamic pose. Cartoons certainly have their place, the only anime I dislike is the ones drawn by the dime a dozen preteens that are praised by their peers. It's not really that I'm jealous of them, what really bothers me is all the people who saturate boards and sites with pointless "I have no crit" posts for crappy work.

[one2hit]

wtf you talkin' bout? Anime is a wonderful art form and shouldn't be denied crits/comments because of your dislike for the style. I don't believe we should restrict ourselves or our art to only certain genres when creating from our imaginations or inspirations.

[xia]

if only so many artist realize that:

TO DO GREAT MANGA you have to study
human figure at least and then make a
stilization or an interpretation of HUMAN
FIGURE, analize volume and form

artists that make MANGA studing reference
from another manga WILL HAVE A LIMITED
RANGE OF LEVEL of all the factors that
involve manga BUT this doesnt mean that
they will not be good, they will be limited
by stereotypes.....

Studying ACADEMIC KNOWLEDGE will make
your artwork REACH higher parts or different
and creative things in your artwork because
you will know why shadows go like this,
why this color combination looks good, how
to rotate this mechanical design, etc.....


Totally agree with Gabo here. I don't really care either Manga or American or European or Disney or Dreamwork or whatever...If it can inspire my imagination, I would praise it. To those who ignore classical study, they destine to deadend. Doesn't matter where they come from.

Whatever can inspire me and get me going...I will take it doesn't matter where or who or how.

BAD art is Bad art period.
A Masterpiece is a Masterpiece period.
Other than that is all the matter of preference.

Real or not real who is to judge?
Hemlet never exist, but he is more real than any of us and live thru century.
We are real, but do we or our existance/ persona live thruout eternity? No. (or we don't know yet for some.)
If it looks real, doesn't really mean it has life. Even if sometimes things doesn't look real, it has more life than you could imagine. Look at Ariel (Little Mermaid) for example, she is more real more alive than some other real human I have seen. Sargent can create life with simple shape and big block of color/value. Same different! Think deep, think hard, think like an artist. Like ShakeSpare, Homer, etc...Don't get stuck to only what's in front of you.

And Get your butts to life drawing session or study real art. LIFE IS BEHIND THOSE LINE OR PAINT YOU PUT DOWN, NOT THE LINE OR THE PAINT ITSELF.

Peace!

[treeboy]

I think something that a lot of people forget is that art is about enjoyment and expression. Some people enjoy different things, and everyone has a different way of expressing themselves.

I look at some Anime series (first nitpick, i cant stand the blanket term "anime" applied to the stereotypical "japanese cartoon style." Anyone who has taken/speaks Japanese knows that "Anime" is like saying Cartoon in english. Same thing, no requirement for certain styles or anything, you could call bugs bunny "anime" (its a japanized word based on the english Animation, just like Konpyuuta=Computer)) that I enjoy and I recognize not only the skill and time it took, but the obvious love the creators have for their work. And so many of the shows or movies i enjoy, i enjoy not only for some of the artwork, but usually for the stories which are so different from those found in american movies or animation and never fail to get the mental juices flowing.

A few years ago I (like many fanboy/girls out there) wanted to draw "Anime." I found the stylistic forms fascinating and different and yearned to draw things just as 'cool.' (lets face it, there are characters that just exude coolness...)

i quickly discovered a fact that many out there have not...

Anime is not the only thing out there. Its not even the only 'cartoony' style out there. Just look around this forum to see what i mean. Many of the amazing artists here at CA have a slightly toony twist to their work.

every great artist out there started with what was real. Then just took the next step, or steps as the case may be. Dont just dismiss those that choose a more stylistic approach, if theyre good, chances are good that theyve done their time.

Now im going back to basics, im having to unlearn a lot of bad habits i picked up by unknowingly trying to skip the 'hard' stuff.

I guess my point is this. An appreciation for all forms of art is required. You dont have to -like- it (i cant stand the modernistic pseudo-schools that people seem to create every 2 seconds), but at least respect that it takes work. Even the 'simple anime'

p.s.
exception to the respect rule, the $3million "red dot on white canvas" shit, that just pisses the hell out of me. Go learn to draw :mad:

[xia]

p.s.
exception to the respect rule, the $3million "red dot on white canvas" shit, that just pisses the hell out of me. Go learn to draw :mad:

Yes!!! Totally. What kind of a fucked up world we live in. :baby

[ElvisMcVegas]

I completly agree with ohGr, with realism you carry out so much more detail. With anime you dont get the effect of the details like you do with realism. Look at the atempt marvel made to bring in a larger audience with the marvel mangaverse. The character designs where such cliches, it was redicioulous. Plus when you draw anime style your not drawing in your style, its some elses that you decided to emulate.

[dns2k]

oh yea... one more thing... take a look at GHOST IN THE SHELL : INNOCENCE that is probably the most bad ass cartoon reality there is.

-dns

[artkitty]

Interesting discussion... It can really go both ways. Folks with bad artistic sensibility will praise a detailed realistic piece just as quickly as something slick and anime (or cartoony, or graphic, or whatever)
They're impressed that somebody took the time to draw every hair and eyelash and overlook the wretched proportions, composition and anatomy. Whereas with cartoons the time invested is less obvious due to economy of line, but every line has meaning and consideration in it, and that shows.
I guess it boils down to a matter of taste but I'm glad most folks on CA can appreciate and crit both kinds of art.

[xia]

They're impressed that somebody took the time to draw every hair and eyelash and overlook the wretched proportions, composition and anatomy. Whereas with cartoons the time invested is less obvious due to economy of line, but every line has meaning and consideration in it, and that shows.

Totally dude!

[Aerythes]

I guess it boils down to a matter of taste but I'm glad most folks on CA can appreciate and crit both kinds of art.

I certainly hope most CA folks can. At least, it seems that the good artists here can tell whether an individual piece is skillfully done or not, rather than stereotype on styles ;)

[grouse]

It all depeneds on your background. Alot of people at there on the net wont have had a formal training in fine art. So they won't know or understand the skill needed in the realastic paintings.

Anime and the whole oriental culture is very fashionable in western society at the moment, so for someone who has never done any art before, this will be the first style he/she will look at and have a go at. Also the anime style which is being streamed into western homes via TV and the like, is a very bland excuse for anime, so you cant really blame noobs for doing a crap job.

However I must agree with what is said about the C&C wasted on these attempts, especially when it is more of an apraisal. But we must stand firm, life is unfair, and there are unfortunately more wannabe anime artists than proper artists!! and the web forums are the places where they propagate.

[Sanejack7]

hey, what happened to ohGr? :blah:

[Aerythes]

He got killed by cartoon characters XD

[einherjer]

My point is is that I don't believe anime should be as highly praised as life drawing simply because life drawing has boundries whereas anime is drawn flat and its bounds are unlimited
.


There is a problem with this " this one's better than the other"; anime and relistic art have different "goals"; they represent two cultures: oriental and european which differ in the perception on life, generated by too many objective reasons, and this is not the right place to talk about the history of culture, but maybe you can look deeper in art history...
It may sound like precious talk, but this "conflict" doesn't lead to any conclusion, and there won't be any progress.
I'd like to discuss about the influence of game and comics art on the real life. :trippy: :alien4: :alien4:

[jadedchron]

I didn't read all the posts on this thread, but I thought I'd add my thoughts.

I think you should realize that anime is ideally for animation. You're not going to find many 20 minute animations with artwork realistic and detailed as a Raphael piece.

[Synthos]

I am bored at work so here are my comments:
Realistic stuff is fun too from time to time, to get the details down and propotions accurate, get the colors right, that is a great challenge. But y'know, it's kind of imagination-less to recreate something you saw in real life.


though i mostly agree with what you posted i must make a remark here. I don't know how most ppl work but i assume they work based on real life stuff. Not actually copying it. (me i look at different sources, get a general idea in my head and start drawing from the mind). So i don't see the imagination-lessness.

I find this a strange discussion. Every style no mather which requires skill and lot's of practice to master. I'm pretty ok in the realistical area, but struggling to get something decent done when i have to make something cartoony. So that's what i'm working on now. What i don't like is the "i don't like it because it's.... attitude". Especially cuz i had it happen to me once. Got a PM on a forum from a mod saying i better leave with my realistic fanart cuz it was anime forum. Too bad for them i'm stubborn ;)

So ohGr, if you think realistical art deserves more praise? fine... just personally start giving it more praise. And maybe the rest will follow.

[Nero's Master]

You're not going to find many 20 minute animations with artwork realistic and detailed as a Raphael piece.

Speaking from an animator's point of view, I totally agree. When you draw the same thing many, many times over, having the character or whatever be realistic is terrible. Getting all of those lines to end up in the exact same place on the body while the character moves around is one of the hardest things to do. But on the subject of realistic or cartoony, you have to realize, and I know that others have it many times before me, that without the knowledge of life drawing you can't have good looking simplistic styles. I was (am still being) taught that you can't learn anything from pulling it out of your head. You have to look a references, draw people from life (not just looking at models in a class room, but go out and sit somewhere in public, and just draw what you see). That is how you learn. With a true understanding of anatomy and proportions, then you will understand how to distort it and make it into a "cartoon" or "nonrealistic" picture. I hope I'm making sense.

The big deal made with anime is exactly what everone else has stated. Most people do start out drawing like that, I did. It's a very good starting place, but alot of people don't push themselves farther than that. Pitty. And on the subject of "realistic," I don't think that there should be any comparison. Most people (not all) tend to think of it as being highly detailed. This is not true either. I personalle prefer simplistic styles because they are easier on my eyes and give me a chance to look at the whole picture and then analyze it. Again, hope I'm making sense. A little too early in the morning for me. :zzz:

On a realted not, Miyazaki, in my opinion, is one of the greastest animators around. He puts so much hard work and effort into his masterpieces. He, along with Don Bluth and Glen Keene, are in a whole different ballgame. With Japanese artwork, it's the same as American. Alot of time you find medicore things, and sometimes you find people who really excell at what they do. So they don't all belong in the same art class as eachother.

Here is a link to one of my friend's webpages. She started out anime like, but has opviously taken it to a much better level.
waterbead.net (http://waterbead.net)

[kong]

well i think good drawing is good drawing...
wether realistic or stylized or as u say ANime cartoony.. u really putting everything in black and white here...
which it can't be divided into anyways.
Put it this way good drawing is good drawing!
Most people who can draw really well, can draw realistic. And i think its tougher to draw good then it is to draw realistic.. cause u can always gettphoto reference but to draw good u don't need photo reference. u understand form and 3 dimensionality on a 2 d platform. creating the illusion of 3d from understanding the basic principles of form.
my 2 cents

[StardogChampion]

I don't think you can just generalise Japanese art into the word "Anime".

Saying "I don't like Anime" is the same as saying "I hate movies". You know? It's a silly comment since there's bound to be one Anime/movie that you will enjoy. Not all anime is spikey haired Dragonball Z style characters.

Also, most Anime shows come from a Manga. If you compare the Manga to the Anime, you'll see that the drawings in the Manga are of much higher quality since the Anime studio obviously has a tougher deadline with animations and all...

I'm sure there's just as much bad "realistic" art as there is bad "Anime" art.

[Eew]

SOme realy interesting stuff here :)

I'm sorry but i got to say it : dude has some serious problems, as said before to draw sucesful anime or manga or a cartoon or whatever you NEED a good understanding of basics ! cause otherwise it will look like crap ! Famous artists have this understanding and i'm pretty sure that if you ask them to do a realistic drawing they'll do it with no problems how ever if you ask someone who spend his all life to draw only what he sees to draw a small design in anime or any other style they will have problems with that...

And whats up with kids copying anime and stuff ?? I can say it's anoying sometimes but not more than that ... it depends of someones goals .. if someones draws for fun so let them have it by copying their fav character ..and i dont think that such person have to learn first all anatomy before do one small fanart ...it will be same if you go a basketball court or something and say to some guys that come once a month to play for fun : stop playing go first spend some years practising and then comeback ....


So my advice .. if a person want to become a "pro" in art of any kind he/she will learn all the necesary basics if a person just draws for fun then let them be ..... but to get so pissed off at people who do it for fun and saying that practicly ALL anime is just bullshit makes you realy look just stupid ...and i think it's just lost time to talk about all the anime done by kids just for fun ...so if someone will try to do a realistic drawing just for fun with all proportions and stuff fucked up you will say that realistic drawing is bullshit because of all that kids doing it and it looks like nothing ? ... so my point here is this dude started this thread because he is jealous of 12 years old kids !!!! and that just sad...