Anyone studied with Barron Storey or David Passalaqua?

[Bojee]

Anyone studied with Barron Storey or David Passalaqua?

I was curious what it was like to study with these guys? What were their methods of teaching , what were their classes like, and anything you can pass on?
I studied with a guy who studied with both of them and he would talk about them like they were gods in the art world, so I want to pick other peoples brains about what it was like to study with them. I have read barron's notes from the watch annual and other comments from other artists that have studied with him ( all amazing artists themselves) and even got to meet him once. He's a very humble guy and when I talked about my teacher he said it's always the student a never the teacher, it made me respect him so much more.
David is a little bit more obscure but just as much a stud. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated, and I love to know more about this amazing lineage. Thanks :D

[Darkstrider]

Man, I would love to have studied under Barron Storey!

He taught Kent Williams and a bunch of the other guys who got their start in Epic Illustrated... I don't remember exactly who anymore, but I'm thinking maybe Dave McKean and/or Jon J Muth?

[Helium Macaroni]

I took 2 classes under Dave at Pratt Institute in Brooklyn. He is a fantastic guy. He has a very "out-there" personality, but a great teacher to be sure. His methods are not very, uh.. traditional. You kinda have to wade through a bit of the insane banter to get at the core of what he's telling you, but he's been in the business for so long that he knows from experience what you have to do to break in, that you need to have a product in front of you to sell, as he told us often, we're just whores :) He’s not really the most easy to understand guy at times, and he swears like a sailor. But his passion and unconventionality really make him great. I didn't understand what I learned from him until about a year after my senior year, but now what he's said has sunk in a bit. He was diagnosed with throat cancer at the end of my senior year so I don't know if he's still active in teaching. I hope more people can get the pleasure of knowing him and studying under him.

[Bojee]

Wow, Thanks for getting back to me, wasn't sure anyone would. He's still teaching at Parson's at least
,I don't know how many classes.
Can you tell me about some of the things you guys used to do? Do you know a guy named David Longo? He studied with him at Pratt? Thanks-:D

[drdarrow]

I studied with Barron Storey in 1977 when he was also acting chairman of the Illustration department at Art Center College of Design, just after it moved to Pasadena.

I was a first or second term student, 19 years old, and all this "art teaching" was new to me. I had a hard time grasping a lot of Storey's meaning when he taught. I loved his work, but don't recall him being a great teacher. The teachers I remember are the ones who facilitated artistic or technical breakthroughs for me.

Storey was an "out there" kind of guy, and like most of the teachers I had that were "out there" grasping what he was getting at was difficult. A little like learning math from poetic readings. Can't say I learned anything useful from him, sorry to say.

Different drummer, no doubt.

[Bojee]

Sorry about not getting back sooner for some of you I've been out of town.

Darkstrider- yeah I think Barron's super cool, and when I met him he was such a humble guy. One guy you missed in your list people he influenced was George Pratt who did "Enemy Ace" the graphic novel. Do you know it? If you can find Barron Storey's "Watch" annual, it's got his notes from his classes, and it's cheap.

drdarrow- I didn't know that Barron was acting chairman of the illustration department at AC, didn't even know he lived in L.A.. I new he had taught in New York for a while, and is living/teaching in SF now . That's too bad you didn't have a good experience with him but he seems like he'd be the kind of teacher that you'd either love or hate. He's a real interesting guy to me because he's had such a huge influence on alot of artist's that I really like, I also admire how he's been able to re-invent himself over the years and found a way to stay current, and I think that might be hard for an old school illustrator. I really like the thought process behind the work as much as the technique, and Barron seems to have some interesting thoughts.

Mike- I didn't know David had surgery, That must of been weird to see someone so full of energy go through that. I got a chance to study with Mark English but it was after he had heart surgery and all anyone could talk about was how he used to be so different. He was still a great teacher but I guess a little more mellow than he used to be, but it's good to remember they're human too. I love the quote you remembered from him, another good friend of mine who studied with him said he used to play all kinds of music and related rap to cubism, I thought that was brilliant.

Thank's everybody for getting back to me. :D

[Darkstrider]

Yeah, I almost mentioned George Pratt, but I couldn't remember his first name, it was driving me nuts!! I've got Enemy Ace, it's pretty awesome. It really hit me like a revelation when I saw his work... he was a huge influence on Williams AND Muth, but you hardly ever see his stuff anywhere. He did something a while back... I don't remember what it was, something about vampires I think... a GN, and it was incredible.

About Storey, I've got the Marat/Sade journals, and spent many an hour immersed in it getting my mind blown. He's one of those artists that seem to be overflowing with great ideas that then inspire their followers. Thanks for the tip on that Watch annual, I'll try to find it. Any idea where I could pick it up?

Hey, you might already know this, and this thread really isn't the place for it, but I always like to turn people who dig Kent Willimas on to Egon Schiele, who was a huge influence on him and on Jeffrey Jones. A quick Google image search will turn up some good stuff.

[Bojee]

Darkstrider- It's cool you have the Marat/Sade journals, There out of print and really hard to find, a friend of mine has one so at least I've seen it. Trippy stuff huh? But very inspirational.

I think you should be able to find Barron Storey's "Watch Annual" (that's the full title) at amazon.com or budplant.com, I just saw it the other day at amazon for around 7$ plus shipping, your local library might even have it, ours did.

Funny you should mention Egon Schiele, he's easily one of my favorite artists, it's really sad that he died so young.I love the elongation of the figure.

Good luck on your search, let me know if you don't find it and I'll mail you a copy of the notes. You also might like "Hawthorne on painting." It's coming from a little different place but I think you might like it, it's kind of zen.:)

[drdarrow]

http://www.geocities.com/jeff.avila@sbcglobal.net/main/links/barron/barronpic.jpg <--Barron Storey

I found a pageful of Barron Storey stuff (http://www.geocities.com/jeff.avila@sbcglobal.net/main/links/barron/barron.html) that reminded me of the stuff I knew him for. When he brought original art in, it was stuff like this:

http://www.geocities.com/jeff.avila@sbcglobal.net/main/links/barron/rainforest.jpg

...which I absolutely loved!

It's beyond me how this wild man could also do this:

http://www.geocities.com/jeff.avila@sbcglobal.net/main/links/barron/shuttle.jpg

[Bojee]

drdarrow- Thanks for the link, I found that one too but didn't think of mentioning it , and I don't know how to bring those pictures in as examples, it makes it far more poignant when you have the visuals to go with the words. That national geographic piece is crazy, that much detail and staying on deadline is impressive.

I think you are really lucky to have studied with him if nothing else for fact that he's one of the big guys of illustration. Thanks for the help. :D

[drdarrow]

Originally posted by Bojee
drdarrow- I think you are really lucky to have studied with him if nothing else for fact that he's one of the big guys of illustration. Thanks for the help. :D

Don't get me wrong. I totally enjoyed him. I was in awe of this veritable drawing machine. His work was SO fascinating. He was friendly, warm, engaging and brilliant. I was just too young and green to absorb anything I could apply.

It's because of the many big names at Art Center under whom I studied, and my disappointment that they never demonstrated anything they did, that I demonstrate every week in my classes. I think that to a visual person (the student) things need to be shown, not lectured.

I lecture, too... but the students comment most about being able to watch me (I use a video camera and monitor on my drawing board during figure drawing.)

[Bojee]

Dr.- Oh I didn't read it that way ( yet again), I didn't think you liked the class. I was gonna ask if you thought you'd get more out of it now?

I'm a big fan of the demo too for a couple of different reasons;1 it's great to see that your teacher can do it,2 once you see it done it seems more acheivable and you have an idea of where to start , but occasionally I think it can be limiting cause a lot of people have trouble moving beyond the demo and thinking for themselves.

At the beginning stages I think it's unavoidable cause students don't even know what your talking about let alone see it, but later I think there's more room for theory and philosophy and less demos or at least a different point to the demo. Maybe that's why they didn't demonstrate as much at AC so you'd have to dig a little deeper? Maybe they were just lazy? I don't know. :)

[drdarrow]

Originally posted by Bojee
but occasionally I think it can be limiting cause a lot of people have trouble moving beyond the demo and thinking for themselves.

That's erroneous thinking.

No one is going to get stuck copying a teacher, or duplicating what they demonstrated. No one.

Do all pianists play alike? All violinists? Do all calligraphers write alike? Obviously, no.

But they started somewhere, learning from somone that could do it.

I honestly don't believe your assertion that " lot of people have trouble moving beyond the demo and thinking for themselves." It simply is not the case.

More to the contrary, I seriously doubt any student could duplicate my demos, much less get stuck in my rut.

Thinking for yourself comes long after mastering the techncal skills. You can't teach thinking. You teach technical skills, and share the thinking that went into the individual piece being discussed. From that 'Sharing of thought" the student can learn avenues of thought.

But the risk of "not thinking for oneself" is an overblown philosophy, in my opinion.

[Darkstrider]

drdarrow,
I see what you're saying. Even if you're trying to copy somebody's style, you're really drawing it yourself. If you don't have the knowledge you can't fake it.

Bojee,
I think we're kindred spirits.
I remember now seeing that Watch Annual a while back in the Bud Plant catalog, but never got one. I'll see if I can get ahold of one.

[Bojee]

Mike- If you remember any of the stories I'd love to hear them, especially about exercises that you did in class.
By the way.. you'll always here about ronnie sp? and margaret usually subs at pratt for him, margaret is basically the female version of passalaqua, lol seriously..she is a spitting image..only she is annoying and Dave is funny
?? I don't know these people, is margaret the lady that helped him at his workshops down in florida??
Do you know their last names. I've heard people talk about Daves son too, but I don't know his first name.

drdarrow- :D Erroneous thinking, hmm.
"Repitition is the mother of skill". But what I'm talking about is I think there's a big difference between copying a technique and applying it( not just to the situation they've been taught, but to other situations as well), and that's where the student learns to think for themselves.

I wasn't really talking about your teaching, but I'm surprised you haven't experienced it before. The Stronger the teachers personality the longer it takes you to get past doing a bad imitation of that teachers work before you make it your own.
That doesn't necessarily mean the teacher's not teaching you valuable things, i just think it might be hard to break out and find your own voice.

A couple of examples, you used music, in classical music the musician is trying to perfect the form, working on a few pieces of music but trying to make them better and better, perfectly valid. A jazz musician would try to improvise within those forms. They are both skillful but I think the jazz musician would be able to adapt more. The best would be to have aspects of both.

Another, I use to teach martial arts, and when teaching a student a technique, block, kick, punch, or series of moves, the students tendency especially at the beginning stages was to think that it had to be done exactly like it was demonstrated. Some could come very close to repeating it , but others had to learn to adapt it to their own body type or capability. They would also think that that technique could only be used in that one situation, and it would take a while before they could see that they could apply it to other situations as well. That's when they start to think for themselves.

I think we might be talking about similar things but when you talk in absolutes your losing me.;)

Thanks again for all the info about Barron, if you remember anything about what your class was like I'd love to hear about it.

Darkstrider- Yeah, I definitely think we might have similar taste. Good Luck in your search.

[drdarrow]

Bojee, I absolutely never, ever speak in absolutes. Period.

I do now have a better understanding of what you meant, and the example you gave is all too familiar.

I think that maybe your think for themselves may be equivalent to my understanding of thinking outside the box, and yes, some instructors personalities, popularity, celebrity, looks, portfolio, and/or bank account can paralyze some people and prevent them from thinking outside the box.

Fortunately, I never, ever have that effect on my students, because, as you know, I absolutely never, ever speak in absolutes. Period.

Now, to your use of the Classical/Jazz reference—and I think music is a great metaphor for so many artistic references—your example explains it perfectly, while at the same time breaking down your argument. So, I agree on one level, yet on another, you make my argument.

What I mean is this: In my opinion, Jazz has always been the Impressionism of Music. A departure from Rendering. So, Jazz—which is built on varying degrees of departure from the main road—is by its nature built on a solid understanding of classical.

You might say that one can never creatively depart from a path if they don't know the path well. They might just be lost.

I came to appreciate what some would call commercial jazz 25 years ago, in people like Jeff Lorber, Joe Sample, Dave Grusin, and now Diana Krall and others. Along the way, I thought, "You know, I want to learn to play Jazz Piano... I want to take Jazz Piano Lessons." When I looked into it, all the jazz piano teachers I could find would all ask me the same thing: "How many years of classical have you had?"

My answer was zero. I have no piano training—I just wanted to learn only Jazz Piano.

All of them told me that I needed several years of classical under my belt first, then they could teach me Jazz.

The form must be mastered before valid departure can be recognized. Otherwise, it might just be colorful wandering.

The Stronger teacher may be like the fabled Force: it has power over weak minds. And weak minds abound.

I remember an art director calling me and asking me to bring in examples of fruit I had done as an illustrator, since there was a potential fruit job on the line.

I brought him, among some things, this painting I had done:

http://www.darrowart.com/paintings/illust/image/fruit.jpg

And to show him that I can also "use my imagination" and create realistic things that don't exist, I showed him this golf club cutaway:

http://www.darrowart.com/paintings/illust/image/cobra-clubhead.jpg

I didn't get the job.

Know why?

The job was to paint some apples (dipped in caramel) and I had no apples in my portfolio.

[Bojee]

drdarrow- :D I totally agree, I thought we might be talking about the same stuff just expressing it differently.
I've heard the art director analogy from other instructors over the years and have experienced it a little myself, it's so silly. The other side of the coin is a client looking at your portfolio and asking you to do something not even remotely close to what you do.
It's a funny world out there. :D

[Darkstrider]

Originally posted by drdarrow
Bojee, I absolutely never, ever speak in absolutes. Period.


:p

[Bojee]

http://www.kentwilliams.com/news/withbarron.jpg

2 great artists Kent Williams and Barron. Kent also studied with David I believe.

[Darkstrider]

What a couple of studs!

I remember when I first realized that Kent always did self portraits, I mean that he actually posed as the main character in ALL his work, I tried it. As it turns out, I'm a lot better of an artist than a model. But I got a camcorder and recorded myself doing a lot of stuff and actually got some cool drawings out of it. I just couldn't stand looking at my own ugly mug any longer.

Hey, this may not be the best place to post this, but I'm here and I just thought of it, so here is where it gors...

The VCR or DVD player is a great tool for reference work. The picture only stays for maybe five minutes before it shuts down, so you gotta learn to get info down quick, though you can go back and try to find the same frame again later (I actually have ways of holding the image digitally now, so I could cheat if I want).

But here is some of the power that modern electronics put at your fingertips.... you can turn the color up or down if you want, adjust contrast and brightness, and if a pose is confusing, you can run it back and forth a few frames and see the figure moving. One thing I used to like to do is slowly turn the contrast up and then down, all the way, and watch the shadows grow and recede like puddles filling up. As they slide across the form they reveal details you wouldn't get otherwise. It's something I sometimes do before doing the drawing, just to sort of feel out the image.

[Bojee]

DS- yep I agree. I think all artists drawing the human form gotta end up drawing themselves atleast part of the time.

Good exercise, I've done it many times, the drawing part not the playing with the contrast and color etc.It works even better with the Dvd player cause the pictures clearer and on mine you can zoom in. I'm not sure this is the best place to post this but as you said "your here". :D