Is it reasonable to ask for Spec Art

[Stuart_Renton]

With previous jobs it was a simple process to see who to hire and who not to hire, but lately, we've been getting vague portfolios where it's not so clear to see whom to hire as they want the work, yet their portfolio doesn't contain exactly the right kind of art... We extend invitations to new artists, but they seem to be in a position to make more demands of me than artists with whom I've worked for over ten years...

So, I'm wondering, in the real world, in my previous job, companies would vie for business, we called it pre-pursuit. I have myself been asked several times to submit a brief for work for hire for novels.

Yet, lately, it seems that artists are wholly against submitting concept art or even giving their ideas for a project. They just expect to be given the job there and then, often without much in the way of discussion. They are wholly against pre-pursuit, even on long-term contracts...

Is it reasonable to ask for concept art, or even a discussion on their plans? We've been paying for concept art, but we just can't do that with every new artist that comes along, and I'm wondering, after getting a lot of attitude from one artists, where the line is drawn.

If people could offer advice, that would be fantastic as I'm stuck now seemingly between being unable to hire an artist based on portfolio alone and asking them for any pre-pursuit work.

[dpaint]

What your asking for is not professional. In 20 plus years I've never worked for free. No one I know in the business works for free; You hire people on the quality of the work in their portfolio. There are a lot of new developers who think because they can't get Venture Capitol money for their project that everyone else should work for free on it or little compensation.

The market is hurting for quality art so if you want that you have to pay, plenty of unqualified artists, but a big shortage for talented artists who can actually get the job done. That means they don't have to say yes to people who lowball compensation, don't pay for changes, ask for free samples or want to micro manage a piece of work.

[Stuart_Renton]

With all respect, your comment is somewhat ignorant of the way business works. So you go for a job offer and they ask you to put together a presentation which might take 8 hours of your time. Would you say no? This is a pretty competitive market... The same happens every day with businesses vying for the same contract...

And it's exactly the same principle with art. It's RIDICULOUS to hire an artist for a long term job based on nothing but their portfolio. Sure, I have done it in the past, but they're always artists I've known and have prior dealings with... And I've spent a LOT of money commissioning art from freelancers in the past decade (a lot of them from this forum).

I'm not prepared to sign a contract with an artist I barely know on a long term project - not without hearing their vision for the future. What you're basically saying (and seems to be a recurring theme) is that the publisher has all the responsibility and the artist none. There's not even a job interview, or would you begrudge a publisher that, too?

Everything you're saying is about the artist, but there's nothing about the eight thousand pounds I've lost to unscrupulous freelancers in the past four years alone. And the money is nothing compared to the time wasted... And yes I did my research and obtained references, but sometimes, a person will take you for a ride regardless...

I have never ONCE complained about the pre-pursuit work on books I've done. Or the pitches to publishers or big gaming companies. One took me 100 hours, was it worth it... in the end, definitely not, but it was a step in the right direction!

I've certainly never thought for a second that getting my ideas in any way devalues my work or that it in any way casts aspersions on the hiring company. I wouldn't hesitate to sit and discuss my ideas with a publisher for new novels or projects. Why? Because that's the way you inspire and get jobs. It's NOT just about the portfolio.

There are some big names in art I speak with on a regular basis and I'd never ask them (or anyone I knew could do the work) to do more than discuss their ideas for direction of a project, but for people I don't know, will I go that extra mile to find out if they can do the job, you betcha!

[dpaint]

8k pounds wouldn't pay my salary for a month. Your'e an amateur. No one with any self respect asks anyone to work for free. You're a botom feeder praying on people who don't have the knowledge or skills they need to make it in the business.
I just was hired to create a pitch to Disney for a small developer and was paid my day rate. I do them all the time. The one before this was for Nickalodeon and again I was paid my day rate. You are operating so far out of the mainstream as to be irrelevant.

[Danniel]

I think that there may some misunderstandings on how the work can be subdivided in such a way that wouldn't constitute spec work, or perhaps in what is really been asked from the artist.

One can't really ask, "hey, show me five finished covers based with something in the lines of X, Y and Z, I'll chose one I like, and if I ever make money out of it, you'll be paid your share" and not expect name-calling in return. This sometimes may happen from the lack of knowledge of how much time and work is needed to produce such images, and also a misunderstanding that rough sketches are not finished art, as obvious as it may be.

If the portfolios are already promising enough, all that should really be needed to chose a given artist from a pool of candidates are sketches and roughs, which don't take as much time for the artist to produce, and, as they're not intended to publication, the fee does not comprises such licensing, which is often the bulk of the price.

These sketches or roughs could be aimed at just having a better notion of how a given style would match with a general concept ("wow, I really like this style on this sci-fi stuff, I wonder how it would fit with a vampire theme though"), or even as a search for a more specific concept ("I'm sure all these guys could produce great finished pieces, but wonder which of these guys could come up with the coolest concept for my <very specific thing>, not just some cliché").

The latter will probably be somewhat more expensive anyway, and the artists won't necessarily agree to have their concept pick, but a different artist developing it to the finished piece, at least not for the price of merely having sketched it, it's a different thing to use it. So it's important to have price estimates or even agreements for an hypothetical final product even if initially you're hiring only for the production of preliminary material to chose from.


I think that if the work proposal is made clearly along these lines it would probably be far less objectionable for the artist (and less of a burden or risk for the contractor, when compared with these "all or nothing" terms of an hypothetical illustrator), even though some would still not agree anyway.



And it's one thing to produce some "spec work" for oneself, as a personal project, and it's another to join someone else's endeavor.

[JeffX99]

With all respect, your comment is somewhat ignorant of the way business works. So you go for a job offer and they ask you to put together a presentation which might take 8 hours of your time. Would you say no? This is a pretty competitive market... The same happens every day with businesses vying for the same contract...

Wow. You're just really wrong on a lot of levels here.

Sure, and then the business that wins the contract folds that expense into their rather large compensation package. Artists are solo individuals...you're talking about two very different things. Would you ask an accountant or an insurance adjustor to process a complex audit just to see if they can handle it? Would you ask a programmer to write eight hours of code to prove they can do it? Ask a concrete finisher to work a full day so you know he can do what he says?...take that as a dare.


And it's exactly the same principle with art. It's RIDICULOUS to hire an artist for a long term job based on nothing but their portfolio.

I only was ever hired based on my portfolio and eventually my experience. We only ever hired people based on the same criteria - with a thorough interview process of course. This "pre-pursuit" business you mention is what the artists portfolio is...their materials and presentation for potential clients.

It is very common in my experience to hire an artist as a contractor for three months to see them in action so to speak, and see how they mesh with the team, but we never had "tests" and that kind of bullshit. I've never worked for free and I wouldn't ask someone else to either.

So what do you base it on then? Besides of course the interview process, references, letters of recommendation, experience...which are all part of any hiring scenario of course. So yes, in that sense it is the same principle with art.


I'm not prepared to sign a contract with an artist I barely know on a long term project - not without hearing their vision for the future. What you're basically saying (and seems to be a recurring theme) is that the publisher has all the responsibility and the artist none. There's not even a job interview, or would you begrudge a publisher that, too?

Sure, that is your perogative. I wouldn't hire someone for anything unless I was confident of their ability...but I wouldn't ask them to do the work first. I also don't know what you mean by "hearing their version of the future"? Of course there should be a job interview...depth of which would correspond to the position or project. Some minor thing?...minor get aquainted, here you go...major AD position? rounds of interviews from the bottom to the top.


Everything you're saying is about the artist, but there's nothing about the eight thousand pounds I've lost to unscrupulous freelancers in the past four years alone. And the money is nothing compared to the time wasted... And yes I did my research and obtained references, but sometimes, a person will take you for a ride regardless...

Well, yeah, that sucks. But sounds more like a lack of due diligence on your part and willingness to hire less than professional artists because you wanted it cheap. Professional artists have reputations to uphold and go the extra mile for their clients.


I have never ONCE complained about the pre-pursuit work on books I've done. Or the pitches to publishers or big gaming companies. One took me 100 hours, was it worth it... in the end, definitely not, but it was a step in the right direction!

Good on you man. Again these things are different and folded into various compensation arrangements for the various products, advances, royalties, options, etc. All things the artist rarely has considered as part of a compensation package. And again, artists start their careers with "pre-pursuit" in the form of portfolios, leave-behinds, websites, blogs, etc. and maintain these things constantly as their careers develop.


I've certainly never thought for a second that getting my ideas in any way devalues my work or that it in any way casts aspersions on the hiring company.

Uhm...what? Didn't quite follow that statement...


I wouldn't hesitate to sit and discuss my ideas with a publisher for new novels or projects. Why? Because that's the way you inspire and get jobs. It's NOT just about the portfolio.

What makes you think artists don't hesitate to do this all the time as well...with people they have an established relationship with or trust? Or are you saying you expect an artist to spend a bunch of his/her time helping you brainstorm or design your project for free? How does that work for you when you ask your accountant to spend a few hours hashing out your taxes...or your attorney to spend the afternoon going over some contracts...just so he can keep your business?


There are some big names in art I speak with on a regular basis and I'd never ask them (or anyone I knew could do the work) to do more than discuss their ideas for direction of a project, but for people I don't know, will I go that extra mile to find out if they can do the job, you betcha!

Not sure what you mean by "discuss their ideas for direction of a project"? If you're saying that during a friendly conversation with a friend, who happens to be an artist, you mention something you have cooking but not sure if it should be sci-fi or steampunk...and they say "steampunk, 'cause it's all the rage". Then sure, a friendly conversation, even discussion over various topics is normal, but if you're asking them for much more than that I would feel it was out of line and it would be a strain on our relationship. All dependent of course on the relationship and how close it is. I have writer friends I spend hours discussing projects with, occasionally ask for editing and critique...with the knowledge they could ask the same of me regarding art.

Also not sure what you mean by "go that extra mile to find out if they can do the job"? That is where your own diligence, experience and critical thinking must come into play. Maybe you've got bad instincts for finding quality people? In that case maybe ask someone you trust for their response. What I'm trying to say is if you hire professional, experienced artists you will generally find things to be much smoother. If you want to hire less professional artists, with little experience you take your chances.

So yeah, just an artist's perspective. Hope it helps.

[JeffX99]

Oh...to your orignal post and question.

I don't believe it is any more reasonable to ask for "spec art" than it is to ask your attorney to draw up a "spec contract"...or your mechanic to fix your car this time "on spec"...or...you get the point.

I don't understand why you're stuck not being able to hire an artist based on their portfolio, resume, experience, interview, etc? Unless you're trying to hire the cheapest you can meaning they won't have much experience or a portfolio that demonstrates their ability to handle whatever the project requires.

In the end I think the problem lies in your own camp and you either lack the experience to make sound judgments or are not willing to pay the going rate for professional work. In either case do not place the blame for these shortcomings on artists or the profession. Artists aren't any more difficult to deal with than anyone else in any other profession, as long as they are treated with respect and not expected to work for free.

[Baron Impossible]

With all respect, your comment is somewhat ignorant of the way business works. So you go for a job offer and they ask you to put together a presentation which might take 8 hours of your time. Would you say no?

This is not spec work, that is a presentation. It took me 5 days to program my website and the total amount of work that went into the images on there is well over 1,000 hours. So that's my presentation.

This is a pretty competitive market... The same happens every day with businesses vying for the same contract...

Again, bids and presentation are not spec work. You're confusing two different things. Furthermore, businesses normally have dedicated resources for bid production and the process is worth their while. You won't get any small businessman spending days or weeks of his own time putting a bid together, it's more like a quick meeting in a coffee shop and back to the office for an hour to go through the papers.

And it's exactly the same principle with art. It's RIDICULOUS to hire an artist for a long term job based on nothing but their portfolio

Don't do it then. Arrange an interview. Phone them up. Invite them to an interview. And why not hire them to do a portion of work first? I was recently involved in a three month freelance project with people who I've never worked with before. They obviously wanted to be sure I could do the work so I produced a single piece first, got paid, then went on to produce the rest with staged payments. Why can't you do this?

I'm not prepared to sign a contract with an artist I barely know on a long term project - not without hearing their vision for the future. What you're basically saying (and seems to be a recurring theme) is that the publisher has all the responsibility and the artist none. There's not even a job interview, or would you begrudge a publisher that, too?

You talk a lot about how the artists must go to the far ends of the earth to satisfy you. What about the other way around. What does the artist get from you? I presume you'd be happy for them to request a presentation on what you can do for them, and produce some writing maybe, to see if it fits with their artistic style?

Everything you're saying is about the artist, but there's nothing about the eight thousand pounds I've lost to unscrupulous freelancers in the past four years alone. And the money is nothing compared to the time wasted... And yes I did my research and obtained references, but sometimes, a person will take you for a ride regardless...

First, this sounds peculiar. Aside from small downpayments I get paid on a staged basis almost exclusively. And when I don't, the payment's right at the end (100% in the employer's favour). How do you get in a situation where the artist has your money and doesn't deliver?

Second, it's not all one way. I personally have never failed to deliver any stage of any project - ever - on or before the deadline, nor have I ever left a single work email unanswered, or not answered fully and promptly, nor have I said I'd do something then not. And I consistently deliver a quality of work equal to or, normally, exceeding what's required. Yet all the time I have to deal with flaky employers and wannabe-employers who drop out of contact for days on end, think they can change their specs at whim without extra fees, don't adhere to timescales, fail to pay on time (not as common, but it happens), waste my time when they have little or no budget and promise the earth and deliver nothing.

I've certainly never thought for a second that getting my ideas in any way devalues my work or that it in any way casts aspersions on the hiring company. I wouldn't hesitate to sit and discuss my ideas with a publisher for new novels or projects. Why? Because that's the way you inspire and get jobs. It's NOT just about the portfolio.

I doubt any artist would refuse to discuss their art with you. What they won't normally do, unless they are fools, is produce original work for no fee and no guaranteed benefit.

There are some big names in art I speak with on a regular basis and I'd never ask them (or anyone I knew could do the work) to do more than discuss their ideas for direction of a project, but for people I don't know, will I go that extra mile to find out if they can do the job, you betcha!

You seem not to have made the connection between your difficulty in finding proper freelancers and your demands that they work for free to 'prove themselves'. I think once you associate the two your troubles will be much reduced.

[evamonkeyn2]

Your post was made to ask for advice. If i may, here is my advice.

First off, I'm not going to try and verbally cave in your skull.
I disagree with a large number of your points and rationalisations, but arguing them will only generate an atmosphere of defensiveness. In return you must consider that your views would be in general opposition to how many freelance artists operate, often very close to the wire in terms of a sustainable income. Very few people I know would even begin to contemplate doing 10 hours let alone 100 hours of work for free because they would not make the rent that month as a result.

In terms of your approach, something certainly has to change, as losing 2 thousand pounds per annum to 'unscrupulous freelancers' does not sound like something anyone would want. Given the wording of your initial post, i will presume these losses come from signing contracts for an entire project in advance, then finding the artist cannot meet stylistic requirements.

Since so many artists would be unwilling to do free work, might i suggest an alternative is to reframe your contracts and job postings entirely.

Post initially a very low price contract to product a basic sketch with a certain stylistic quality you are looking for, while stipulating if the result meets your requirements, the artist will be offered a much much larger contract based on their success in the sketch work.

Lets say fifty people reply, and you pick the best five to do your sketch. Of the five sketches one stands out above the others as being what you are looking for and you commission them to do the full scale work.

In this situation the sketching round may have cost you 100 dollars, but it meant you got to see five stylistic choices for your much larger project. It also meant for that hundred dollars you are no longer going into the larger project blind, as you can be judging the artist on things like communication, punctuality, professionalism etc when they are doing that sketch. And it only cost you 100 dollars assuming you chose five and had them make the sketches at the same time. If you did them one at a time you could luck out and find a perfect artist 20,40 or 60 dollars in.

At the same time, the artists get some remuneration for their quick sketch, and you hopefully minimise your yearly losses to 'unscrupulous freelancers' by getting to know them first through that initial pay for sketch process so everyone wins at least a little.