marooned (+ lesson on lighting, composition)

[tegehel]

inspired by a painting of Howard Pyle. Crits welcome - yeah, Pyle's better, I already know that, thanks :)

http://www.tegehel.org/graphics/painting/marooned.jpg





and the stupid details noone's ever going to notice at this res...

http://www.tegehel.org/graphics/painting/marooned_det.jpg

[bwkeough]

I like the rendering here, but I think the composition is too stable, too centered for the emotion you are portraying. unbalance = drama

[Schlo-mo]

I like the composistion, It shows how desolate and alone the guy is.

heavy Rendering aswell, Looks nice ,man.

[nardfrog]

looks good, but the shadow and shaded areas are too dark. Sun has much more of an omni effect rather than a spotlight. If you threw voilet in there to brighten it up i think it would improve the image a lot.

[Bradart]

it is a very well made piece, but i agree with the balance comment. it stillfeels too emotionally stable when it is too compositionally stable. other than that, freakin sweet.

[pac23]

man i like it, nice!
i would put more clouds in the sky, but that's just me, and maybe add some more texture to the sand.
the figure looks bad ass i love it.

[Chris Beatrice]

Nice work.
A couple of things...
In general the piece looks a little bit like a collage of disparate parts, not entirely fusing together into a single scene or environment. I don't know if maybe that's because you used various pieces of photo reference or what. For example, the big cloud in the back is dipping below the horizon. But this cloud looks as if it belongs at a higher position in the sky, and the horizon area should be much further back in the distance, and maybe comprised of smaller clouds.

The shadow color problem someone else pointed out already is quite pronounced. This looks almost like stark studio or stage lighting, not sunlight. That the vast, fairly saturated blue sky is not entering into any of your shadows at all.

All the lighted areas of all objects in the scene are moving toward white, while the shadows are simply moving toward black.

You obviously know how to draw quite well, now I would work on color, light, and cohesion across the whole piece.

[Hazart]

Wow! Nice feeling in this one. You really can dig in his head. Good work!

[tegehel]

Ron (Fred Flickstone) did a paintover of my piece and was going to post it here, but had trouble with his server. So, I am putting it for him.

Ron and all of you guys have given me great feedback. I am also doing a re-painting of it based on my new perception of the pieces after reading your comments. I hope to post it soon, I just have to deal with my taxes first (yeech).

I also intend to respond to all of you when I'll be posting the update. In the meantime, I'd like to thank you all for the constructive criticism, and Ron particularly for taking the time to teach us a great lesson.

C.

Here's what he wrote:


---

Hello. I like your image you did.

THis paint over is a story telling paint over more than a, this is how you should paint. I like the concept, but it doesnt suggest lonely. With the
beach having a skewed texture, there is excitement. WIth all the clouds in the sky, he feels accompanied by others so to speak, he doesnt feel alone.

It looks as though the lighting is trying to be midday, if that is the case, then it needs to feel midday, small shadows, sun more above. The lower
the sun, the less saturated blues for the sky, etc. you would use. The sand would be redder, etc. As the sun lowers, the color spectrum band
diminishes, so the highest contrast colors wno longer feel the way they do idday.

The reflected light on a hot light surface is amazing. I dont think I pushed this enough. There should be this feeling of being cooked, not already
charred, that is a quality of the shadows, not your work.

And with the sword sticking straight up, it gives hope to his plight, or it shows he is defiant. I dropped it in the sand tto show defeat. The sash
is wrapped around it in a tangled fit of panic, pain, etc.

The light, has been replaced with an hourglass, ornate in gold, the oxymoron for his fate. Time is precious and worth gold, and he has run out
according to the clock, and he is sitting on a goldmine that will never be spent.

The single cloud is an effort to show isolation, I see clouds by themselves in the sky and they look out of place, isolated, alone. Also, the waves.
only one little one lapping up on the shore. One, so to show again, that repeat of isolation.

And as for the textures, and such, I flattened everything out to horizontals, creating an illusion of infinite space, flat reserved, too calm,
unnerving in his situation. No activity that shows action, or movement. Just complacency.

Anyway, it was a fun paintover, as I am teaching more storytelling in metaphors and symbols these days, and this was a great lesson in looking for
the right symbols to feel the mood.

If you want to post this up on the thread, be my guest. As I said, I would have posted this as a lesson for all, but I cant access my server for
now...heheh

Talk with ya again soon, and good luck with the pictures, they are really getting stronger.

Sincerely,

Ron

http://www.tegehel.org/graphics/newfolio/web/finishlonepirate.jpg

[Clandestine_IX]

First off let me say that I liked the first peice that you posted tegehel. This last peice appears to be (though it may not be depending on if FredFlickstone read the posts or not) the result of paying attention to every single critique given. And it is a much stronger peice because of it. The feeling of isolation is almost overwhelming now. It is simply excellent. Can't wait to see your version after you repaint it.

[tegehel]

hi all, taxes are over with, I can go back to "normal" life.

This is my rework based on all your comments. Ron pretty much nailed it with his version, so instead of just repainting it, I took elements of it and added my touch.

I liked the red belt, I kept that, as well as repainted the shadows. I added a useless treasure - the richest guy on the island, and the only one (not only symbolic, but appropriate for the season, no?)

I added birds as another symbol: nature abandons him too, or perhaps hope flies away. Crits ahoy!

C.

http://www.tegehel.org/graphics/painting/marooned2.jpg

[Marko Djurdjevic]

At first I didn't realize it was some kind of pirate setting, which pleased me a lot. After I saw the sword and the realized it was a treasure chest he was sitting on, the whole piece lost a lot of it's mystery to me. Somehow, the scenery was more powerful with a character just sitting alone in front of the endless sea. I guess it pleased me more, because it left more room for interpretation. But still, good work buddy.

Marko

[Prometheus|ANJ]

Looking great! I like his pose. The skintones could probably be a bit more saturated, right now they are a bit buddy cuz you go straight from black to lit skin.

Sunny scenes can have black shadows (especially on photographs), but at the same time, if there's any bright surface around, the reflected light from it will be much stronger cuz of the strong sunlight, thus making the reflected light /radiosity extra noticeable and important to get right.

If you have dark unsaturated shadows, but want to make the skintone more saturated, try going from shadow to red to skin, rather than just shadow to skin.

What happens with more sand in the foreground and less sky? I liked the blowing/swoshing sand on the first one, but then again, I have a preference for blowing/swooshing sand.

[Finch]

I gotta say I love the first one
The other one is still good though

The first just makes him seem more alone more hopless

thats just my two cents

[Ra Havok]

Yeah, saturate the figure some more. Juice up the colors.

I like the last version best, but I'd like to see some more foreground sand. The composition is a bit too laden now, to fully 'tell' the emotion. In my opinion.

But: very good.

[Fozzybar]

First off great crits and paintover by flickstone...

My 2cents:

the birds bring more balance to the piece - in a negative way...top left: cloud, bottom left: red belt, bottom right: man, top right: birds...it's symmetrical now, the composition loses tension...also the birds add some more life into the piece, though the man should look alone, no other life in company...

Prom, you suggested more sand...i suggest more sky...same as the famous landscape paintings from the netherlands (17th century)...creating more space, thus concentrating on the loneliness of the single man...

One of these threads, where everyone can learn and the spirit of ca comes through :thumbsup:

[Chris Beatrice]

First let me say, I really like the piece. I like the first one the best, because it seems the most "you." I commend you for attempting it, because the "black shadows + color" thing that seems to satisfy a lot of artist obviously can't cut it here, and you have discovered that, and learned why. That's fantastic.

Now, I think it's important to understand some of the science behind how light operates in the real world, before diving into how to adapt and exploit this in painting. I've read on this site (somewhere I can't remember), something about if the direct light is warm, the shadows are cool, or some such thing. A lot of debate on this thread is getting into the realm of pseudo science, and mixing together 2d light and color phenemena with 3d light and color phenomena. If you want to know what makes shadows etc. look the way they do, when dealing with natural light, speaking strictly scientifically, the different "sources" of light in an outdoor scene like this operate in this way, in descending order of intensity:

1) Direct sunlight
2) So called "indirect" light of the sky (actually just diffused sunlight)
3) Reflected light or "radiosity"

Simple rule: if you can see something, it is lit. All you need to answer is, "by what?"

Once you understand the order of intensity, you see that direct sunlight, for example, "blows out" indirect sky light, to the point where the indirect sky light doesn't have any noticeable effect on areas lit also by direct sunlight. At the bottom of the chain are those nooks and crannies that are barely lit by anything at all, just a tiny bit of reflected light, and are almost black.

The color of a cast shadow bears no automatic relation to the direct light in a scene like this. The area of the cast shadow is, by definition, not lit by the direct light, but by the indirect light of the sky, that's all. So the color of that light is basically the color of the sky. That's why in so many real world settings you get warm light/ cool shadows. But, to be fair, colors "push" each other (really an optical phenomena), so, as most people know, an intense orange will make a neutral gray appear blue, and so on. So there is some validity to "warm light, cool shadows", but this push/pull is happening in the retina not out in the environment. You don't need to double up on that by pushing it in your painting, but of course you can and it can be very effective. It's not a rule, though.

In this piece, (especially in the second version) the main shadow looks purplish, while the sky is almost a straight blue, or even a greenish blue. The shadow on the sand might appear purplish if the sand were somewhat red, but it's not reading that way to me. The shadow is reading too red. In fact, that blue light of the sky, which should be a significant factor here, seems to not be affecting the piece as a source of light at all. In the first version the cast shadows are almost not lit at all (i.e. black), which really isn't natural. In the second version the values are much more in line with a natural sunlight setting, but the purple shadow vs. blue sky issue is most pronounced.

Also in this scene, on a light sand beach lit by direct sunlight, you will get a lot of reflected light off the sand, that can almost rival the indirect skylight. This has been rendered to excellent effect in the second version, which should be studied carefully. Reflected light rendered like this looks so natural, you often don't even notice it when analyzing a painting.

It's quite easy to set up a small, controlled scene to study how light operates, which I would definitely recommend when tackling something like this.

[sixBlade]

I prefer the first one. The clouds, sand and waves all give the impression of the chaos inside his mind. Looks like he is clutching his head because he is confused. I'm not sure about the sword in it though, it does seem out of place standing upright in the sand as ron points out.

[tegehel]

Wow. you gotta love CA.org. This is one of those thread in which you can learn something from the great pros who participate. I love it (and learn.)

Allow me to answer y'all:

Marko: thanks, bro. I made one especially for you, which is even more mysterious now, so I guess now, you can spend quite a lot of time figuring out what's going on. How's that for opening the doors to any kind of interpretation? :)

http://www.tegehel.org/graphics/painting/marooned3-4.jpg

Prometheus|ANJ: Thank you for the explanations, it's great. I'm still learning a lot about shadows and light, and I love the input. I made a quick version with more sand and less sky. (later is one with more sky/less sand.)

http://www.tegehel.org/graphics/painting/marooned3-1.jpg

Finch: thank you. It's hard to please everyone. I've noticed reading this thread that many people have many different opinions, to say the least.

Ra Havok: Thanks. I've reworked in yet again, after re-reading this thread again and thinking about it. I think the latest version's (very bottom) is less balanced now, and more effective.

Fozzybar: Thank you, I agree with you. I removed the birds, and did some changes, which will hopefully make the piece work better. It's hard :)

Here's one quick version with more sky and less sand:

http://www.tegehel.org/graphics/painting/marooned3-2.jpg

Chris Beatrice: Thank you so very much (you and the others who explained how nature works) for your explanations. I am the eternal student, and being self-taught mostly, I realize how much I still have to learn and how many gaps are yet to be filled. This is very exciting to me, and even though I probably knew that stuff instinctively, I didn't apply it to my paintings. So, another lesson to be learn, for me at least, would be to: when in doubt, study nature. Simple, but not always obvious, I suppose. I did another version at the very bottom. Not perfect, but closer perhaps to what I understand it should be after reading all of you.

sexBlade: thank you. Again, a different opinion. It's funny how people react to composition, space, colors, etc...

Wow, that was a very interesting thread to me. A thousand thanks to all who participated so far.

C.

http://www.tegehel.org/graphics/painting/marooned3.jpg

[DavidCousens]

I've learned more reading this one thread than about a months worth of work when I was studying my degree!

Very useful feedback all round, if everybody responded with help like this (I don't want to call it criticism because it didn't even seem slightly negative!) could you imagine how much more artistic the world would be?

Great work Tegehel! :chug:

[Fozzybar]

Yes, but we have to mention, that it also depends on the artist who posted and what sort of work (s)he posted.

The reason why this work got so many valuable crits is....

1. The work wasn't in a stage of a stick-man-sketch...many people here are wondering why they don't get any crits, but mostly the reason is simply the work doesn't has much to offer to crit...you can't say anything about light, composition, quality...not even about the idea, since there isn't much content

2. The artist was open to all crits and ideas and not too lazy to change his image...as tegehel said, he is considering himself as an eternal student as every artist should be...

So:

tegehel :thumbsup:
thread :thumbsup:
ca.org :thumbsup:

:chug:

(ps: i meant "more sky", not more sky and less sand ;))

[Crash]

this thread deserves Five stars

[Clandestine_IX]

well it's got them now doesn't it. Very enlightening crits, all around. I think my favorite is the one where he is floating in mid air lol. I actually like the birds but maybe they should be buzzards heh. Course I duno if there are actually any islands that have buzzards but its a thought. (probably a bad one) :cool:

[Chris Beatrice]

Yeah, this was a great thread. I agree with Fozybar - the artist(s) put some serious work into getting good stuff up here, and remained very open to all sorts of comments.