Market for sculptures now?

[rikkis]

Now that people are doing more and more things on computers where is the market for real sculptures? Now that almost all special effects have moved to the computer format is there still money to be made in real life sculptures? Im not saying money is the main motivator in doing sculptures to me but it would sure be nice to make some dough on something i love to do. What have your experiences been? And I'm excluding all modern art sculptures that are mostly all complete crap in museums in this thread.

[emrezo]

Good point. i really would like to hear from experienced forum members about this topic.

and i agree you about the modern-called crap art.

[dogfacedboy_uk1]

On the subject of Modern "Art"

Don't know if you guys are from the UK or not, but either way you may have heard of a TV show called The Apprentice and recently Junior Apprentice - DOnald Trump does the US version, Alan Sugar the UK one. Anyway, one of the tasks for the apprentices was to sell art in two london galleries and they had to pick two artists out of six to represent. One of the artists was some crazy woman who apparantly house sat for people who were going on holiday and wanted their pets looked after in their own home. This artist (read that as meaning "I'd like to be able to paint and draw but I can't so I do modern art") then proceeded to dress up in the person who was away clothes, hire (yes hire - she didnt do any work herself by the sound of it) a photographer to do a shoot in this persons home and then display the photos as "art" on her wall. This woman was clearly a loon.

The girl who was interviewing her couldn't get out fast enough and I don't blame her! It was doubly amusing that these junior apprentices (16 year olds) saw straight through this womans pretence and made a comment about her needing to be locked up as there must be a law against it. Made me crack up.

Big boo to prentious modern art from me, every time I hear the word I feel the urge to take a crap.

dfb

ps having said that, I dont mind abstract paintings that have interesting shapes and colours/effects going on or something extremely clever, its just when people start messing up beds and installing a light bulb in a white room when I start getting agitated.

[The Dark Power]

I know little about art, but for me 'art' has to have an element of craft to it or I just can't see any value to it. There's true skill in classic art (i.e. Da Vinci, Michaelangelo etc etc) - someone with a skill actually spent hours creating those works.

How does someone's unmade bed compare?

As to selling sculptures, that's a difficult one - I've sold some here and there, many not for enough for it to have been worth my while. For example I sold this medusa piece (http://www.thedarkpower.com/php/medusa.php) on ebay for £13! Not saying it's the greatest thing ever, I thought it might go for a little more than that though - took me long enough to make!

I used to do customised action figures for people which I made some money from. I also made some rubber masks for a dude for a decent amount so it is possible to make money - having some examples of your work on show and inviting people to commission you can work.

[Mah ' Crub]

Hi all, I have sold a few things,{very FEW}, and on one ore two, I made descent money. I am sure there are people out there who have the two things that we need. First they have to have an appreciation, and love of the art, and second; the money. I think the only way to do it is to get out there and bang on some doors. In other words, we have to seek out the buyers and place our work in front of them somehow,{ Pic's are the easiest way}.
People have to know about us, so going out and looking for clients is a must.
I have found art shows to be as usless as as udders on a bull, and gallerys seem a difficult nut to crack, { they generally book a year in advance} and many take huge chunks of your sale. I think anything over 30 percent is too much.
We have to find a way to educate the public in the arts and culture, and teach them the value of art.
I don't know, the economey still sucks, but lots of people are still comfortable, I think they are the target market.
Just a few of my thoughts. Thanks.

Mah ' Crub

[dogfacedboy_uk1]

Getting back to the original question, digital will never totally replace traditional sculpture it is a different skill set and working method which many will not be comfortable with. For the commercial artist, it will be a requirement to know both methods I would say - more strings to your bow and all that. Myself, I enjoy photoshop, i would probably feel good about doing stuff in say zbrush, not so much the other 3d apps like maya or whatever though. It would have to be a sculpting program. However it has no chance of replacing my hands on appreciation of the traditional ways!!! When you can work the program it probably makes life easier in many respects, especially with perfect symmetry, no materials costs and so on. It is different enough to allow traditional methods to prosper anyway.

As to making money, one of the keys here is not to undersell yourself. Accepting £13 for a piece of work is not going to make you rich or feel good about your art. If you put 20 hours into something, charge a fair hourly rate for it and don't budge, even if it means you lose that customer!!! Too many people give away their art for next to nothing. Then customers expect cheap art and it cheapens the whole artisitic process which is not good for the soul! Students are especially good at doing this - they think they are doing themselves a favour doing cut rate work for clients to get a foot in the door, but in reality they are just pissing off the pros and giving clients the expectation of cheap work in the future. When those students graduate and become pros themselves they are going to be wondering where the lucratively paid work is. They wont find any because all the next wave of students are busy undercutting them!!!

dfb

I am not a professional artist by the way! I sell a little here and there though...

[Schoten]

The art market is a difficult one. From what my teachers tell me, we have to make our own market. The best thing you can do is just get your work out there. The other half is to find where you can make money.
Western and wildlife art is pretty marketable here in Colorado. This summer I plan to go to some of the big outdoors stores around here and practice. The stuffed animals are great reference, many stores love having artists and just maybe I can sell a few pieces. At the very least i'll be getting my name out there.

[aadi]

i am agree with. all peoples we need to money to do art work i am stuck in this problem its very difficult to sell our art work we have to find solution as my friend mah ' crub is saying right lets we have to do that

[Mah ' Crub]

DogfacedBoy; I applaud your second paragraph whole-heartedly. Undercutters don't seem to get it, that they are only hurting them selves. Its not just in the art field that this is happening, but in all businesses. In my trade,{ furniture makeing } I can't compete with some of the new people because they do it so cheap. And they soon fail but they do so much damage to the market before they go out.
Here-here

Mah ' Crub

[MikeMakesModels]

1. Not all effects are done by computer. The big visuals we, but props, weapons, armour, dead bodies, sets, etc etc are all real, an are unlikely to be replaced by CGI any time soon.

2. Don't be dismissive of modern art. Coming up with a thought provoking and engaging conceptual idea is a rare talent. (though I agree that most "artists" fail at this :P ) Being able to combine that idea with a good execution is even rarer still.

Now back to the original post. This is where you come in. The old masters didn't paint pictures of rich Venetian merchants and royalty because they wanted to fulfil the same role as a modern 'artist' -that is someone who challenges perceptions and thinking. They did it because rich merchants have lots of money.

The moral of the story: Sometimes you have to yourself out to create something beautiful.

Crazy house lady might be talent-less but look at it from the photographer's point of view.

[Waipunga]

A few points Chaps.

If you create Art with the intention of making money you will fail.

However if you create Art because it burns you when you don't and your stuff is attractive then no matter what the price it will sell eventually. You may not necessarily make a lot of money in the first 10 years of establishing yourself in the market but it will at least pay for your materials so that you can get better.

Your first market is your friends and family. Get in good with them and supply the birthday presents, wedding presents and all of that.

Is the market swinging towards digital? Yes part of it is but the actual market which is the comfortable middle class still like something made by someone they know. That is the trick I have found over a very long time, people buy from me because they actually want to say "yeah I know him".

A point about rich people. Don't ever consider targeting them. They are as tight as a duck's arse. Ever wonder why they have so much money? Or at least appear to have lot of money because these days most of it is owned by some shithead bank or other. And if they do eventually buy it will be to impress someone else 90 percent of the time.

So as DuneFish says : Get out there and do the work. Make lots and lots of very beautiful things, stick to the plan, and work bloody hard for a long time and you will do fine.

[dogfacedboy_uk1]

2. Don't be dismissive of modern art. Coming up with a thought provoking and engaging conceptual idea is a rare talent. (though I agree that most "artists" fail at this :P ) Being able to combine that idea with a good execution is even rarer still.


Nah, you're alright, I'll stick with my opinion. If Piero Manzoni hands me a can of shit and says what do you think of my art ? I'm going to tell him, "dress it up with as many fancy ideas and notions as you like it is still shit."

Here's a link to that loony house sitter woman....

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j11/NotPatrick/Apprentice%20Juniors/NewPicture30-2.jpg

The woman is called Jessica Layton. If you need a house and pet sitter, steer well clear of her lol.

dfb

[MikeMakesModels]

Art is a crap word. It causes all sorts of problems.

Exceptions aside, I find old art boring and new art half arsed.

It's all art. I reckon us lot are closer to artisans (but we're in good company)

[Mah ' Crub]

Thats the secret, work harder, don't market, stick your head in a hole in the ground and while you are bent over working, people will come along and stick dollar bills right up your ass. Tis' a wonderful ting.

Mah ' Crub

[Waipunga]

stick your head in a hole in the ground and while you are bent over working, people will come along and stick dollar bills right up your ass. Tis' a wonderful ting.

Mah ' Crub

LOL ! Oh Man that's funny. Has worked for me so far ........... that and working on average 12 hours every day for the last 23 years on sculpture, knives and swords.

Yeah Artisans is also a better work in that we actually make something. But here is the rub:

Some people with loads of real talent believe that the World owes them. Bullshit. The World does not care. You have to develop a name and that takes a spectacular amount of work, a lot of time and great big balls.

[Mah ' Crub]

I hoped you'd like that. I know what you mean, I have been at it for 38 years now. It does take a lot of hard work, but... that being said, I wish I had worked smarter rather than harder. I don't think all years of long days, late nights, and no weekends really paid off, at least not like I had hoped.
Someone a lot smarter than me once said that you could make ten times more money from the " neck up" than you ever could from the " neck down" In other words,, work smarter, not harder. Now if I could just figure that out I would be fat and happy, maybe. LoL
Cheers,

Mah ' Crub

[Waipunga]

Yeah oh how I know what you mean Mate! In bloody spades Mah Crub! And I know plenty of "neck ups"............... miserable bunch of pricks if you ask me. Much rather be knowledge rich and at least this way nothing and no-one bothers me.

That is always the real problem. Looking over the fence watching someone who appears to be doing really well and then looking back to your own workbench and wishing that it was more exciting! The tough bit is knowing and acknowledging that if you jump ship and try something else you are right back to square one. Hellish difficult to tell young guys that if they stick to the plan through thick and thin they will eventually be seen as the Master of that one particular field and then do OK. Actually bloody pleased that I grew up way back then when we were allowed to be ourselves and not in constant touch with every bastard under the Sun!

Today's lesson Boys & Girls : Do bucket loads of research, find a plan and then stick to it!

[Mah ' Crub]

Oh yes, the bloody suits that sponge off the people who really do the work. Corperate Creeps with soft, limp handshakes and monogramed shirt cuffs. Fargen bastagiss... pale faced, forked tongued deal makers... they should all be boiled in ink-jet toner and thrown into a pit of salty paperclips.
Just a thought.

Mah ' Crub

[Fovos]

Answering your 2 first questions that seems to me your talking about the movie industry since you are mentioning computers.
Though they are using cgi more and more with every new movie, they still need some traditional sculptures. Especially for the special effects make up/prosthetic s, and all sort of props (guns, gedgets, etc.) Also movie industry and game industry still using the traditional maquetes for any kind of creature design they need. Not as often as they used to, since 3d software's like zbrush and such made it faster and easier in some points. But still modelers find it useful to use actual models, or a sculptures to work with. But still not such demand on sculpting jobs comparing with so many talented sculptors around already in the field.

For selling your artwork /sculptures. I will have to agree with dogfacedboy_uk1 don't undersell. If you have a piece that you believe is worth what is worth then sell it to that price. I did fall in this trap once for a commission work, and i promised to myself never again. Creating just to make money will force you in bad decisions.
Of course sitting around just creating is everyone dream, if you can afford it, but if you want to make some money out of it, take all commission projects you can and just try to exhibit your personal work. Galleries is not the only way. Try to do something original and with a good marketing people will notice you. Things are easier with internet now. :)

As for the art in museums, old and new. My personal point of view, is art is an art. Now each they need to find what they like. I do not like abstract art but that does mean i do not respect it. I hated Renaissance art and portraits. Until a recent trip to Tate Britain. I entered this area with the Apocalypse theme paintings, i was speechless cause i like the subject but it gave me the opportunity to appreciate the detail with the colors and the lighting that those painters spend hours to create.

For modern art i like lots of artist and some of them not so modern any more, but seems i always like specific artwork, like Christian Sas, Ron Mueck, Giger or even some new alternative artists.

But what i hate about modern art is when art become not personal work of an artist, and usually modern art is not priced by quality or meaning of an art piece but WHO's name is under it.

So to finalize this, my personal opinion, is just create what you like. You have the option to go straight for you personal style and if people like your work then you are going to gain that extra dough.

[dogfacedboy_uk1]

I think this is quite an interesting subject for discussion, couple of points already made here by others that can't really be emphasised enough....

Business Models...

If yow want to make money you do need a complete plan. It needs to hit the target in all aspects of business. For it to be successful don't focus on just one or two points. Write it all down and break down each area with a wad of notes on how and what you are going to do to achieve it. This should help you focus the business side of things so you know what you are doing and can then just get on with the main bit of creating the art. No more worries on all the business side if you do it first.

Dunefish was quite right to make the point on the old masters. Their business model was quite stable. They did portraits and religious works as their mainstay. They had the advantage of lack of commission competition it only depended on who else lived in their country of origin of course, although I guess many would have travelled at the behest of very rich people.

The internet however creates very fierce global competition. But it is also a fabulous tool for free self promotion. If your work is amazing, somebody WILL see it. You can use it for research of your competitors, seek potential clients. All the tools are there and this is all business school for beginners type stuff that we should all be already aware of. Art today is amazingly more varied, with lots of potential avenues and business models to be developed from those fields. Portrait painting and photography should still prove a lucrative way to earn your living. So to make money with your art you do need a plan, choose and plan your business model wisely. As dunefish said, if it means you have to sell yourself out then you really should do so as you may hate it to begin with, but it will expand your skills into areas you may not have thought of trying and you may end up enjoying it.

For example - I live in beautiful cornwall, but I cannot paint landscapes to save my life, nor do i enjoy the idea of having to do them. They certainly sell well though to holiday makers and I do know that I enjoy viewing a well painted landscape!! So this should be a potential area for me to expand into. Not that I'm going to.

To sum up my opinion on the matter

Good business model+good buiness plan+amazing art/product=SUCCESS!!!

dfb

[Miniature_Rich]

I've seen some influences in miniatures creep in, but nothing really major. So far as I know Gamesworkshop are really the only miniature company to do some work with Z-brush to creat a few of their plastic kits, but it's still only very minor.

I don't think programs like that will ever truely replace sculpture for the same reason I started sculpture. Nothing beats being able to walk around a piece of work, to lift up up (size and weight allowing) and look at it from different angles.

[Aleio]

I'll just add my own two cents here. Considering the current economic market, most people aren't willing to spend much on art these days. In my couple years experience, I've had more luck in personal commission work, but only in years previous (2007-2009), and then everything pretty much dropped off.

I also agree that underselling is a problem, and when some of us get desperate we will actually succumb to this. I actually had another artist tell me at local art and craft show I did a couple months ago to up my prices even if things were bad. The shows were good experience, yet discouraging due to no sales. People took my cards and commented on how much they loved my work, but they were still unwilling to buy anything.

With the last few shows I did, and scrambling to make marketable work in time, I have been largely burnt out. It's a terrible feeling. :( I work mainly n traditional pencil drawing and some digital painting, and haven't been able to do much of anything in the last several months. In that time, I decided to pick up sculpting, and I have been able to work on a couple projects here and there, and ended up selling a few small pieces, and have one or two more that need finishing.

In the free time I have I am attempting to improve my skills, but in sculpture and 2d work. One of the things I've found that people tend to like are frogs, especially the really colorful ones. They're eye catching and hard not to love for their cuteness. I picked my new avvie for good luck. ;)
Also creating things people can wear, like handmade jewelry, incense burners, and other household decor is a great idea to help pickup the selling points of your stuff. That's what I'm going to aim for in the meantime.

Hopefully in the next few months and years we'll have better luck. I have to say that starting out as an artist is hard as hell, and often very discouraging, but as the veterans here have said it takes a long time to really establish yourself and having a plan is good.

...I need to work on that plan thing too. O_o

~Angela

[MikeMakesModels]

I've seen some influences in miniatures creep in, but nothing really major. So far as I know Gamesworkshop are really the only miniature company to do some work with Z-brush to creat a few of their plastic kits, but it's still only very minor.

The influence of computers is much greater than that - All of GW's plastic models are now produced from CNC'd moulds. They do still produce some masters traditionally, then 3d scan them, but more and more they're moving towards an entirely digital approach (for plastics at least - and they do love the plastic).

Bit of a shame really - you can't beat a real model.

[VulgarDragon]

Sigh...considering the current state of economy, most people aren't willing to spend a lot of money on art. I have not sold anything at all, except for very few pieces. I have pretty much given up on the idea of making an income from art. I just now do it for enjoyment and, perhaps, someone who wants to own one of my sculptures or my drawings will come along...but not going to get my hopes up too high.

There are some artists that are still making good money, but usually they are already established and well-known and have a huge fan base. I think that one of things I need to work on is building up a fan base and getting my work out in the open. That, of course, is another chore in itself.