UK Elections

[TASmith]

Hey, I just saw this neat map on The Economist, and I was curious what separates all these political parties. What are the issues that matter, and what are their stances? If any English people could explain, thanks.

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=16051766&source=features_box4

[Aly Fell]

British dear boy, British... England is part of the the UK. :)

The election is pretty well covered here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

Right now we have a hung parliament with no overall control by any party. The Conservatives have more seats than anyone else though. The 'third' party, the Liberal Democrats now have the chance to form a coalition government with either the Conservatives or the Labour party. Who will they go with? The tension is almost palpable... Whatever happens the BNP, the British National Party (essentially the 'fascists') have not made the advances they hoped for... hoorah! And we have our first Green Party MP in Brighton.

[TASmith]

Yeah, but who do these parties represent (not just geographically, but money wise) and what do they want to do?

[Aly Fell]

In a nutshell...

Conservatives: More to the right. Conservative with a big and little 'c'. Yet their campaign used the phrase 'Vote for change'... duh... Margaret Thatcher was a bast... er, Conservative.

Labour: More to the left. Once even more to the left, but Mr T Blair decided he didn't like being more to the left, so invented 'New Labour' which was more to the middle and had an affair with George Bush.

Liberal Democrats: In the middle in more ways than one right now. Will do anything to get into power because they've not really had any yet...

British National Party: Bunch of fascists.

Green Party: Very nice people who generally enjoy tofu.

The Monster Raving Looney Party: Very nice people who generally enjoy alcohol.

[dcorc]

In a nutshell...

Conservatives: More to the right. Conservative with a big and little 'c'. Yet their campaign used the phrase 'Vote for change'... duh... Margaret Thatcher was a bast... er, Conservative.

Labour: More to the left. Once even more to the left, but Mr T Blair decided he didn't like being more to the left, so invented 'New Labour' which was more to the middle and had an affair with George Bush.

Liberal Democrats: In the middle in more ways than one right now. Will do anything to get into power because they've not really had any yet...

British National Party: Bunch of fascists.

Green Party: Very nice people who generally enjoy tofu.

The Monster Raving Looney Party: Very nice people who generally enjoy alcohol.

The BBC should fire their whole election-coverage team and appoint you.

You've communicated more useful info about the state of UK politics in that one post than they've been able to in their entire set of programmes.

[Kagemusha22]

Whilst I'm scared to death that the Conservatives will try to dismantle the BBC to please Rupert Murdoch if they get into power, I'm also kind of optimistic over them going to the Liberal Democratics for seats. Though that's just over the idea that they'll be forced to compromise on cuts. (Though I've been wrong before,...)

One interesting thing is that a lot of people in my Uni have suddenly taken a large interest in politics this last 3 or 2 days, after them being pretty apathetic about it for the last year since getting into Uni. Has there been any general figures released showing a marked increase in voting since the last election, or is that how University rolls generally?

[Black Spot]

Labour - likes to spend money it doesn't have and run up a rather large overdraft.

Actually I think the Conservatives and Liberals will do rather well together; both are agreed in reducing the deficit. The only fear I have is that they might push proportional representation voting, which will give the cities too much say over the countryside and fill parliament with yes men; I like the odd eccentric MP we elect fairly often and they don't fit the yes men mould.

[FraserMcT]

Labour - likes to spend money it doesn't have and run up a rather large overdraft.


It's a worldwide deficit, not just the UK; so I think people are being a bit harsh on Labour. Also they are the only ones that were saying that they will do everything in their power to stop a double dip recession. Liberal democrats say they will reduce taxes etc. But that will not help our economy. Sure, everyone is up for paying lower tax rates, but I think the state of our country and its' economy is far more important that a bit more spending money.

[Black Spot]

It's a worldwide deficit, not just the UK; so I think people are being a bit harsh on Labour. Also they are the only ones that were saying that they will do everything in their power to stop a double dip recession. Liberal democrats say they will reduce taxes etc. But that will not help our economy. Sure, everyone is up for paying lower tax rates, but I think the state of our country and its' economy is far more important that a bit more spending money.

GB actually spent it all before the world wide recession hit. In his first year as chancellor he sold most of our gold at a knock down price as he didn't think gold was a worth while investment and then spent it. Anyone remember his 'prudence' catch phrase? Relying on future earnings is like counting eggs when you have no chickens.

[TASmith]

So then, I take it most of the issues have to do with spending and deficits. Much like the US. What about other issues. In America, our conservatives push moral issues such as abortion, prayer in school, and other things like immigration reform and welfare reform to draw support. Are any of these issues in GB, and also, which areas of the map are generally poorer?

[Kagemusha22]

Well abortion is nowhere near on the scale that it is in the US, though there have Christian groups working with members of the Conservative party (like Anne Widdecombe) to adjust Abortion laws. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_rights#United_Kingdom

Whilst prayer does take place in schools, religion is not really a major factor in terms of affecting politics in the same way as it does in America. Though specifically for prayer in UK schools; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer#United_Kingdom Christian belief is simply not followed as strictly as it is in the US, whilst due to the variety of ethnic backgrounds of people who live in the UK, which is a small country means that there is a noticeable variety in spiritual belief in and around the UK. Though generally the media take a secular perspective.

[Black Spot]

Immigration is pretty high on the agenda. The red areas are generally poorer and vote Labour as they think they'll get more. The countryside is blue as farmers find that city folk and certain politicians don't understand that the countryside is dirty and poorly served as it's expensive to run services out to fewer voters. I am always amused when people buy a house in the country and complain about the noise cockerels make and the smell of manure being spread. That's why I don't think PR is fair.

[TASmith]

But, if both Labour and the Conservatives want more services, then who wants to cut the deficit, and how? Or do they just want to cut each other's services? And how badly did Gordon Brown screw up this election? John Stewart and John Oliver tag teamed on him on the Daily Show.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-april-29-2010/clustershag-to-10-downing

[Raoul Duke]

America needs a Monster Raving Looney Party. On second thought I think that would be the Bush administration.

[Black Spot]

Conservatives want to cut the deficit and they'll do it like last time by cutting the red tape and getting rid of overpaid managers and the tickety boxes. I have hated having to fill in form after form about religion and ethnicity over the last years. Who cares? We're all human and having government statistics pointing out they are helping all sorts I consider demeaning in lots of ways. I've got to the point where I don't fill in the paperwork to their satisfaction and mutter sod off a lot.

[Zapp!]

They're all a bunch of lying, thieving gits anyway. I doubt any party would do half of what they promised to. As for Gordon Brown, I have mixed feelings towards him. On one I don't think anyone really gave him much of a chance as he's been criticised ever since he became PM for things that weren't entirely his fault. But then again, he hasn't really done much to fix these things.

However, if I was old enough, I would vote Gordon Brown any day, rather than have that snobby twat, Cameron, poncing around as PM

[Black Spot]

Most of what's happened in the country is because of what Gordon Brown did as chancellor.

I played Eton at chess once. They totally trounced us, but were so nice about it we didn't mind.

[Zapp!]

Oops, I forgot Gordon had a job before he was Prime Minister. I only really started paying attntion to politics when Tony Blair left. Still, I prefer anyone over Cameron.

[TASmith]

So what are these politicians promising then, anyway?

[Black Spot]

Austerity. All of them and don't think we don't know it, but it's how its done that is the argument going on. Been there before.

[Nrx]

the conservatives havn't said anything other than vague wishy washy hopefull crap such as we'll restore order in schools! we'll clean up britan and save ludicruous amounts of money by just cutting waste... its like a bloody get rich quick scheme

this election just goes to show the power of photoshop and rupert murdoch..


http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-welcome-to-cameron-land-1962318.html

^ camerons briton

and ugh conservatives want fox hunting back despite it already being a handled issue...

and proportional representation?

conservatives 36.1% of the vote 306 seats

labour 29% of the vote 258 seats

lib dem 23% of the vote 57 seats

so in a democratic country a 5% differnce is = to 200 seats?


and the lib dems are the only party capable of critical thinking...


uhhh.... this is the worst spelt post of my life

[Black Spot]

Er... they did it last time, but I don't expect you were old enough to remember that.

[Baron Impossible]

Conservatives want to (and likely will) make spending cuts immediately. Labour wants to wait until there's a definite recovery of the economy, although hopefully that's a moot point now as they should be stepping down in the next few days.

Not much difference on immigration. Conservative want a cap, but can't say what it is, plus a count in and out. Lib Dems want an amnesty on illegal immigrants who've been here for 10 years or more (although Clegg's grasp on immigration appears slim as he stated the other day that 80% of UK immigration is from the EU, therefore uncontrollable, when it's actually 30%). Labour just lets anybody come and go when they feel like it although as an election ploy they proposed a count of who leaves the country (revolutionary). Essentially it's not immigration that's a problem though, it's a benefit system that rewards the lazy, both British and foreign, and the lack of an effective justice system.

Conservatives want to up the tax allowance on inheritance to £1m. Labour and Lib Dems are happy to tax inheritance from £325K, robbing from people who've worked hard and saved all their lives and want to pass on an inheritence to their families.

Up until recently it was routine for old people to have to spend all their savings and sell their homes when they needed care in later life. With the election, of course, that changed, and all three parties have various proposals for tackling that. About time too.

Labour wanted to increase the National Insurance contributions that employers pay per employee, essentially taxing jobs when we're barely out of recession. Neither Conservative or Lib Dems want to do this. Lib Dems additionally want to up the personal tax allowance to £10K.

I'm not entirely sure on Conservatives' ideas on crime. Labour has massaged the figures to make them look good (i.e. improvement since they came to power) but the upshot is that over here, sentences are paltry and often non-existant. Lib Dems would likely be even softer on crime than labour, if that's possible.

And electoral reform. Conservatives are happy with the "first past the post" method of voting, although it's almost certain they'll have to revise their opinion now, whilst Lib Dem are adamant that it needs to be changed, possibly to proportional representation. Labour have indicated they'll go with the Lib Dems on that but now it's too late for them.

And so on and so forth. Basically they're much the same, no far left or far right in the major parties. Quite a few minor parties but they're all jokes. UKIP, a bunch of bumbling fools, whose leader is in hospital after his election plane crashed into a field. There's the greens, of course, who want to cut the speed of traffic on motorways to 55mph because otherwise the world will heat up and everyone will die. In my eyes this makes them the spawn of Satan. And not forgetting the routinely amusing BNP, who managed to win no seats whatsoever on the back of their "white is right" philosophy. Surprising that, as I'd have expected their new canvassing method of beating up Asians would have propelled them to certain victory :rolleyes: - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/england/8663681.stm

[DamnDirtyApe]

Surprising that, as I'd have expected their new canvassing method of beating up Asians would have propelled them to certain victory :rolleyes: - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/england/8663681.stm

FYI, UK "Asian" = American "Middle Eastern/Arabic" and UK "Conservative" = American "Moderate"

[Black Spot]

Summed it up nicely Baron. Basically it boils down to who you believe get us out of the current mess as painlessly, or just a short quick pain, as possible.

I had a small rise in salary this year, but the cost of living (don't believe the inflation figures) have risen twice as much. I keep cutting expenditure, but its going to get worse whatever happens. I'm not happy, but I try to look further into the future and not dwell on the short term hell that will come.

[Aly Fell]

Cameron is not a progressive individual. The Daily Mail thinks the sun shines out of his backside. If you're white, heterosexual, married, male, your life will be a bowl of cherries under the Conservatives. :) I love short term memories... they're sooo... short term... 'Change? They're called conservatives...

[TASmith]

"robbing from people who've worked hard and saved all their lives and want to pass on an inheritence to their families."

What's the percent of this inheritance tax?

"Up until recently it was routine for old people to have to spend all their savings and sell their homes when they needed care in later life."

How is that? I thought you all had the national health service. The problem you describe is identical to what happens in the USA when someone gets seriously sick.

[Flake]

I had typed an elaborate response detailing the various outlooks but "they're all self serving twats" saves on server space.

Edit: for our American viewers, An American leftie commie pinko would probably be right at home in our "right wing" party..

Left / Right wing is contextual..

[ExiledRed]

I left England about a year before Blair got in

When The last of the 'old labour' leaders, John Smith suddenly died, and shortly after that I saw Margaret Thatcher singing Tony Blair's praises in an interview, I decided to get the fuck out of there.

Hope its going well for you guys.

[Nrx]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8669043.stm

this summerises the other specifics pretty well too


I take it your against the 'even softer' on crime approach of the lib dems then barron?

[TASmith]

On the topic of crime, I just gave a lecture about American crime. Basically, it's been going down steadily since 1991, although homicide is still holding steady. There are many theories as to why its decreased from its high in the 80's. Some say the economy, some say abortion, some say it's due to better police strategies, and some say due to tougher laws such as the "three-strikes" policy in California. If that's true, you have to consider the cost, then. In California prison overcrowding's got so bad that some judges refuse to sentence criminals calling it "cruel and unusual punishment" to be subjected to such conditions - the prison system rented out school gyms and such placing hundreds of bunkbeds in one big room. An average of one inmate a week was killed. Overall, America has 5% of the world population and 25% of the world's prison population. But, then again, most of it's drug related, and the UK doesn't treat drug addicts as criminals, right? So you might get by better. This is all from Wikipedia.

Seems like the quickest way to reduce crime in England is to arm Michael Caine with a pistol and a knife, and set him loose.

And, what's with this PR business? And "first past the post"? If England's voting isn't proportional, is it just a check on cities? Sounds like America's electoral college.

[Baron Impossible]

"robbing from people who've worked hard and saved all their lives and want to pass on an inheritence to their families."

What's the percent of this inheritance tax?

I believe it's 40%, above the threshold. £325K sounds high but when you factor in savings and assets (a small 3-bedroom terraced house with no garden or parking can be £325K up the road from here) it's common to be paying hundreds of thousands in tax to the government. And remember, this money has already been taxed once, when it was earned, and tax taken off again on any dividends or interest.

"Up until recently it was routine for old people to have to spend all their savings and sell their homes when they needed care in later life."

How is that? I thought you all had the national health service. The problem you describe is identical to what happens in the USA when someone gets seriously sick.

To be honest the NHS is excellent. It covers mostly everything. If you don't have the money you will definitely be taken care of, and in most cases it's free even if you do (aside from contributions on earnings, of course). However, up until recently it was quite common for older people to have to spend their own money for intensive, long-term care, which is very expensive. If they didn't have any money, though, it was provided.

I take it your against the 'even softer' on crime approach of the lib dems then barron?

I'm not sure it can get any softer. I'm not one who shouts out "lock 'em all up and throw away the key", like the Daily Mail readers, but appropriate sentencing, taking into account the impact to the victims, would be a good start. At the moment the justice system is out of touch with reality.

[Aly Fell]

'First past the post' means the first party to gain 326 seats is the 'winner'. This time no party did that. The Tories (Conservatives) got 306, the most seats, Labour got 258, and the Liberal Democrats 57. The remaining seats went to the other parties. This means that either Labour or the Tories will have to form a coalition with the LibDems to have a majority and the mandate to govern. So the LibDems have to weigh up whom they have most in common with, essesntially. The thing is more people voted against the Tories than for them, so it's a tricky one

The Lib Dems want proportional representation which you can read about here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation

Labour have been mooting that this is a progressive thing and are probably up for PR and changing the voting system. But for some reason Clegg (the LibDem leader) thinks the Tories are a better option at the moment despite the fact they don't want to change the voting system. I wonder why? :/ Despite this, the Labour leader and (Prime Minister), Gordon Brown says if Clegg thinks the Tory offer is a bit poo, he'll have a nice chat with them over tea and a scone and see if they can get together instead. Hung parliaments are so sordid methinks...

[Baron Impossible]

I agree with the Lib Dems about the voting, it needs to be sorted out. The current system is illogical. For example, it's theoretically possible for Party 1 to get double the votes of Party 2 and Party 2 to still win.

[TASmith]

So that's where we get it from.

[Kagemusha22]

EKFTtYx2OHc

Seen this video alot this last week.

[Black Spot]

I don't see what people have against people from Eton. I played them in a chess tournament when at school and they soundly thrashed us, but did it in such a nice way that I didn't mind. Pretty well all the title gentry I've met have good manners, get on with everyone and that wouldn't be a bad thing for Britain to learn. There are too many people with chips on their shoulders who keep bringing the Eton thing up. And the Torys didn't fuck the country up last time, people got bored with the same faces. Now with Labour the gap between the poorest and richest is even greater, so much for social justice.

[Crane]

Pol-lo-tiks...?

[Kagemusha22]

I played them in a chess tournament when at school and they soundly thrashed us

And that justifies the predominance of Etonians, in such high-ranking roles within politics? Surely you can see the classicist concerns that people have over the parties, if they're members come from such elitist-backgrounds, which means they can't relate to the majority of the populace's concerns. The whole point of the Labour party was to combat the discrepancy, I wonder how Keir Hardie would feel if he saw what it became.