Illustration Hate in School?

[jadestinger]

Hello, I'm a graphic design student with an interest in fantasy/sci fi illustration and concept art currently in art school, getting a BFA. I'm not in an "art school" per se, but the university I attend has a fairly large art department, I'd believe.

Anyway, I've encountered a lot of "illustration hate" during my course of study here... and I was wondering what to really do about this. I'm sure I'm not the only one, and this isn't an isolated thing, but I'm just kind of frustrated. I'm self-teaching myself digital painting and stuff, as there's no such department here, and nothing at all close to it (one optional upper-level illustration class under the graphic design curriculum that I'm currently taking, that's about it.)

As I'm getting a BFA, I have to complete the basic courses in all the other fields available (printmaking, painting, sculpture, metals, etc) many of my professors, particularly my painting prof, is known to say stuff like "That's not art, that's an illustration!"

On side note, my illustration professor nags on us to be caught-up on the happenings of the "illustration world" and shows us examples by illustrators from the 1960's. While they're successful illustrators, I simply can't bring myself to like their work as much as the stuff I see from say, the people at Massive Black and the others who post on CA.org. (Not brown-nosing, I honestly feel this way. Well... maybe a bit.) Whenever he sees me doodling a space marine or a lady in armor, he sighs and tells me to "step away from the stuff you've been drawing since highschool and go beyond!" While I do appreciate this and want to push my boundaries, wtf is "beyond" supposed to be?

While I don't particularly care about being considered a fine-artist (I myself don't), I'd like to get decent grades in class. Even some of my fellow students have said "Maybe you should step away from Middle Earth and Star Trek, and your stuff might be more interesting."

Needless to say, I've gotten pretty discouraged... I haven't really done any personal stuff in a long time because I just don't know what I should do any more. I even stopped my subscription to ImagineFX, the magazine that I thought was a GODSEND when I found it a few years ago around the start of my college career. My heart is heavy and I have no idea what to do. It sucks here, but I'm stuck here due to circumstances... and I only have 1 year left to go. Throughout the years I thought that it'd get easier as I start getting into the upper-level courses, but it hasn't. I feel that I'm gonna come out of university knowing about nothing I want to know and feeling unappreciated.

Am I just being close-minded, or do I have a geniune reason to feel bad about wanting to make a living from doing fantasy and sci-fi art?

Wow, I wrote a long post. :| Sorry.

[JJacks]

Just because illustration isn't welcome in your art department doesn't mean you need to quit doing it. You can always do your illustration work on the side and just use what you learn from the art program to strengthen your own work.

If you can't bare to at least step back and do the assignments while in class, maybe you shouldn't purse an education in fine arts.

I went to school for painting and was criticized a lot for what I would draw as a freshman. I stepped back and explored the assignments as best as I could, focusing on what they were meant to teach me as well as adding my own twist on things. It was hard but I think my illustrations are better now because of everything I learned. I also had support from students who were interested in the same things I was.

It can go both ways; school can help or it can make you not want to draw anymore. It's really up to you in the end, but what it comes down to is the fact that you shouldn't let other people's negativity make you feel like what you want to do with your art is insignificant.

[Raoul Duke]

Your obviously not going to the right school for you. I've encountered teachers like that. You just have to enjoy what they have to offer. Obviously this school isn't offering what you want. Find a school that suits you. It sounds like the curriculum isn't appropriate for concept art.

Show your teacher some Ashley Wood, Sam Webber, Tomer Hanuka, James Jean or Phil Hale. Stuff that crosses boundaries.

[PuppyKitten]

Well, I agree that you can learn a lot from illustrators from other eras. The current illustrators are totally inspiring, sure... But they themselves were inspired by a previous generation of illustrators. There's no harm in teaching yourself to appreciate techniques from decades past (even if you don't like it as much). If your teachers tell you to get inspired by old-timey illustrations, do it! You'll have plenty of clients in the future with the same demands, so you need to get good at taking inspiration from things that are outside your comfort zone.

But don't stop drawing what you love either, and don't let anyone tell you that what you are doing is not art. The only thing you'll learn from a lesson like that is how to be an art snob, and NOBODY likes an art snob!

[arenhaus]

From what I hear, you get that a lot in academia. I suppose it's the influence of the "modern art" movement which thinks it has a monopoly on art and sneers on anything figurative or communicative.

But "going beyond" is a good all-round advice, regardless of who proffers it. ;) It means that you should try new things, go out of your groove, go out of your habit. Different subjects, different techniques, wildly deviant styles, exercises in what you don't normally do. Stepping away from Middle Earth and Star Trek is a good idea. Experiment, go out into unfamiliar territory. Even if you don't stay there, you can bring back home some goodies that will serve you in your chosen venue... if you do want to return to it, after you've seen the wider world. :)

Illustration is most definitely art, you know that, so what do you care if someone tells you otherwise? Smile and don't argue with misguided people. You don't have to borrow their philosophy, just look what good things you could take from what they teach and do. I like to remind myself that it is possible to learn from anyone. Even if you don't like them.

[bhanu]

"That's not art, that's an illustration!"
What they mean to say is fine art instead of art. ANd believe me its a good thing, go to any haute/avant garde gallery and look at the fine pieces of fine art. Its all just poop on walls or floor, or hung mid-air(installed).
I dont mean to say that illustration is better per se, but they both have different means and ends.
"step away from the stuff you've been drawing since highschool and go beyond!"
Some of it is true, you mention drawing a space marine, and you probably have been drawing that since, highschool, again I dont think thats bad in itself, but you should just also explore more, why not make a simple still-life?
Exploration is necessary for any artist, otherwise you are just one of the hordes. If you don't have a voice of your own, they it gets lost in the white noise.

shows us examples by illustrators from the 1960's.
I do think that was a golden period in illustration, most of the artists you admire here at CA revered the guys like bernie fuchs, bob peak, andy virgil, Brad holland to name a few.
Those guys showed what illustration could be, in the way that earlier generation was fighting a battle with photography, by making art more graphic based/conceptual.

Maybe you should step away from Middle Earth and Star Trek, and your stuff might be more interesting.
Maybe you should take it with a pinch of salt and draw your fellow students in a cubist style portrait, better yet make them naked and frollicking each other( and along with it write a manifesto or statement), maybe that will be interesting.

I get told everyday about how I should not paint horror images and draw good, worthwhile stuff like horses.

Only you can decide whats worth your while.

haven't really done any personal stuff in a long time because I just don't know what I should do any more. I even stopped my subscription to ImagineFX,
Why the fuck?
I understand that maybe you need to draw and make the stuff that your teachers like to get good grades, but whatever has that to do with what you like???
Will you change your eating habits if your teacher told you to eat KARMIC food?

What I mean is that this thing is a personal issue, its what you like. Noone else should/can manipulate that and noone should be allowed to either.

I feel that I'm gonna come out of university knowing about nothing I want to know and feeling unappreciated.

Maybe you should look into other courses as well, courses which focus of basics of fine- art, like anatomy, lighting and stuff. I dont know if you will be able to find schools where they teach CA, but with the right knowledge you can go anywhere, right?

do I have a geniune reason to feel bad about wanting to make a living from doing fantasy and sci-fi art?
I know its a a hard time, but stick to your guns too, only few of us in the world get to do what we want in life, and anyways most people who tell you do better stuff or get a real job dont understand what it is like to do something you love.

I hope you always do things that you love most, things that are worthwhile to you, its hard to please everyone around yourself, but by doing things you love, you can atleast ensure that one person is happy.

Take care and pleas resubscribe to ImagineFX.

[Xeon_OND]

Since this is a thread on illustration, I would like to ask this nagging question I've about illustration.

Why is it that almost all the illustration works and drawings I've seen are heavily distorted to the point of being abstract?
Say, illustrations of human figures whereby the head is deliberately draw as 3 times larger than the human body, with a crooked eye slanting down 40 degrees and a nose half as large as the head and a wacky-abstract looking t-shirt.

Or a row of buildings that are all slanting 50-degrees to the left with wacked-out windows etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but illustration is a form of highly-stylized fine art to the point of near-abstraction, right?

Some of the drawings in dear bhanu's blog looks like illustration to me too.

Thanks!
Xeon

[Zazerzs]

Xeon_OND: yup you're wrong :) I think you might have illustration confused with cubism :P

Illustration usually goes along with print, like books magazines .. images to tell a story ect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illustration

"An illustration is a visualization such as a drawing, painting, photograph or other work of art that is created (usually in the form of a work made for hire) to elucidate or decorate textual information (such as a story, poem or newspaper article) by providing a visual representation."

yeah .. some fine artists seem to have issues with other disciplines...at the school I attended there was always shit being talked from the fine artists to the animators, "sell out" was a term often heard.

[bhanu]

Why is it that almost all the illustration works and drawings I've seen are heavily distorted to the point of being abstract?
Because you are ill-informed, just so you know, CA is a subset of Illustration.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but illustration is a form of highly-stylized fine art to the point of near-abstraction, right?
Wrong. Get your definitions right.

What you seem to talk about is conceptual/editorial illustrators like Ben Shahn.
Its just a style, but of recent years conceptual illustration has taken a good hold of editorials, yknow stuff that imitates the likes of brad holland.
People like doing that stuff yknow, I know you may find it hard to believe, but it is true. Its just one of the many styles out there.

Some of the drawings in dear bhanu's blog looks like illustration to me too.

I am just an artist, I dont like describing myself as fine artist or illustrator, I just do it for other people convenience. I just draw and paint.
take care.

[Xeon_OND]

Because you are ill-informed, just so you know, CA is a subset of Illustration.


Wrong. Get your definitions right.

What you seem to talk about is conceptual/editorial illustrators like Ben Shahn.
Its just a style, but of recent years conceptual illustration has taken a good hold of editorials, yknow stuff that imitates the likes of brad holland.
People like doing that stuff yknow, I know you may find it hard to believe, but it is true. Its just one of the many styles out there.
Thanks a lot, Zazers and Bhanu!

I went to search for Ben Shahn and Brad Holland. Some of their illustration works (these are exactly the type of "deliberate distortions" I'm referring to):

http://images.artnet.com/artwork_images_627_221650_ben-shahn.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3032/3080418432_069ac695d2.jpg
http://www.centerforbookarts.org/bookstore/broadside/images/brad_holland.jpg

If you guys didn't clear that up for me today, I would still be thinking illustration = fine art drawings deliberately distorted to an extreme!

Thanks!
Xeon :)

[Farvus]

jadestinger - I agree with bhanu. The teacher probably meant fine art instead of art. Even if illustration is not art then it comes from art. It's branches from long tradition of representative picturemaking which you learn in art history. The same techniques in illustration nowdays were used by 19th century painters.

As for space marines and Star trek. On one hand it's important to draw what you enjoy beacause you draw creative energy from inspirations. On the other hand if you want to illustrate fantasy and sci-fi then maybe it would be more beneficial to get a broader look at those genres and explore them more. Otherwise you might get lost in big crowd of imitators. There are hundreds of people who can draw sci-fi and fantasy well. In the end it won't be how nicely you can render figure or how beautiful colors you use. The only thing that in future will seperate you from everybody else is your personal vision. Like Alan Moore said in one interviews "The only thing that makes you unique is that you're you". If you inject a bit of your life experience and knowledge into your art it will end up way better than any space marine or star trek stuff. As illustrator it's you who create imaginary worlds for people instead of depending on what's already been done. Sci-fi draws a lot from what's happening nowdays in science and from futurology. Fantasy draws myths, legends, history. Not from Lord of the Rings or World of Warcraft. These are just temporary trends. That's probably what people mean when they say about going beyond :).

Xeon_OND - Illustration is not a style.

[Sascha Thau]

The United Nations estimated the Earth's human population to be 6,800,000,000 in 2009.

Chances are : not everybody of these 6,8 billion people will like what you do. Does this mean you shouldn't draw/paint/do whatever you want to do? No.

Take what makes sense for you when people talk about your art and leave the rest be. As an artist you always have to deal with insecurity and overconfidence. It's enough work to handle yourself, you don't have to react to some people who don't understand what you do and work this out, too. There are times when you are in an environment that is not at all forthcoming for the things you believe in or want to do. As long it is temporary (as school is by its nature) you shouldn't think about it too much. Soon enough you can create your own work environment as a professional illustrator/graphic designer and businessman.

"step away from the stuff you've been drawing since highschool and go beyond!"

But don't forget to differentiate. This, for example, is very good advice. You can propel your art to a another level if you let your influences vary. If you want to be a comicbook artist and only ever let yourself influence yourself from other comicbook artists, then you probably will be only another comicbook artist.

But if you bring something new into the game, people will recognize your art better and react to it. It's not only an artistic choice it is also a financial one.

Think of Ingres. I very much would like to see a Space Marine painted by Ingres. How awesome that would be.

[George Abraham]

Word "art" and "illustration" used allone are incomplete scentence fragments

...illustration art......
...abstract art....
...impressionistic art....
...realistic art....
...scetch art....

art in my opinion is anything that serves as sensory media that required human effort to make, or anything that took skill and mastery to perform.

classic art in the other sense sounds like fart. Either you are doing something noteworthy or selling crap under the guise of art.
But what makes art is not in the maker's hands allone, Whoever takes the time and money to appreciates something determines and reserves the judgement, and that can differ from person to person. It's not a social idea it's an personal appreciation idea. People can be taught to like stuff to a degree and that's social stuff and creates "popularity" but then we'd go into soulless discussions etc.. You atleast need to have a personal reason for liking something.

[velderia]

This reminds me of the time when my teacher said drawing cartoons in our sketchbook was allowed, but drawing, at least what in her eyes was "anime", wasn't.

Ohhhh I wanted to punch someone. ><

Anyway, JJacks and Duke are right. It seems like you're not in the right curriculum or something. It sounds like your teachers want you to get a pretentious shit spot in MoMA instead of pursuing the career you want to pursue.

[QueenGwenevere]

Xeon_Ond: You're looking at a very small subset of illustration. Sometimes the most famous illustrators of the moment will all have a similar approach, but that's just because illustration has stylistic trends, just like everything else. And the illustrators who get the most attention tend to be the trendiest ones. Also certain areas tend to get more exposure than others (often when people talk about illustration, they'll focus on editorial, book, and institutional illustration. And maybe advertising.)

But there's a lot more to illustration than that. Generally speaking, illustration as a field includes magazines, websites, advertising, books, children's books, packaging art, greeting cards, fashion illustration, posters, comics and storyboarding and other sequential art, animation, concept art for games and movies, production art for games and movies, art that appears on miscellaneous products (calendars, t-shirts, mugs, wrapping paper, etc. etc. etc.) and probably a lot of other things I'm forgetting... And looking through all those fields, you can find a full range of styles, including plenty of realistic/classical styles.

Wait, you know what, here - just dig back through the posts on Irene Gallo's blog, she showcases a ton of illustrators who have a more realistic, classical approach: http://igallo.blogspot.com/


Okay, now jadestinger:

"That's not art, that's an illustration!"

Oh lord... I had one fine-artsy teacher say that to me in freshman year, but I took it as a complement because I was going to major in illustration anyway. That whole "illustration isn't art" attitude is an old-school fine-art attitude. Modern people usually know better. (And of course there's the Society of Illustrators, fighting the good fight to raise awareness of illustration as an art form...)

If you want to keep on top of the illustration world, art communities like this one are a better bet than crusty old stuff your teachers are showing you. FOR GOD'S SAKE don't stop doing the kind of work you love just because some academic types pooh-pooh it! And don't drop ImagineFX! Sooner or later you'll graduate, and then you'll wish you'd stuck with what you really love doing, trust me on this. I was confused by teachers often, and kept going in different directions because of it, and in the end went back to things I loved doing - and by senior year I seriously wished I'd spent more time on the things I loved doing.

Sure, it doesn't hurt to experiment and try some different things (that's what school is for) but if you try stuff and don't like it, DO WHAT YOU LIKE instead.

Oh - and both of you, Xeon_Ond and jadestinger... Spectrum. (http://www.spectrumfantasticart.com/) Just look at the range of styles featured on their front page for this year, will you? 'Nuff said. ;)

[Demo]

With out reading the hole thing-Im tired its late get over it
Ill just post a story back at my old art school, a semester ago i had a sculpting teacher Btw I'm not a sculptor who would kind of make fun of illustration and other types of art in a similar manner so I went to one of his shows and his entire gallery consisted of a pipe in the center of the room with duck tape spiraled down it half way and then the rest of the roll hanging off, and hitting the floor...
What I took from this is that theirs a lot of idiots in the art world, sometimes its just best to ignore them, and go back to work. I left that school a few weeks later because of related reasons :)

[egerie]

Fine art VS commercial art.

[Kevin Vito]

I've encountered quite a bit of this at my own school. There always seemed to be this tribalistic rivalry between the 'third floor' (design and illustration majors on the third floor of the art building) and the 'fourth floor' (painting and drawing majors on the fourth floor of the art building).
As an illustration major, I've been required to take drawing and painting classes on the fourth floor. This makes complete sense of course (gotta learn how to paint and draw). What didn't make sense was when the instructors would tell me to paint or draw whatever I wanted, but then criticize my work for being too illustrative ("but I'm an illustration major!") or too representational or too figurative or whatever. Then some guy would paint a circle on a piece of newspaper and they would gush with praise all over it.
I always wondered what the deal with the fourth floor people was.
I only recently found out:
It's the paint fumes.
All the fumes from paints and such rise upward toward the fourth floor, and they work with all kinds of hazardous chemicals like turpentine every day. All these fumes must have turned their brains to mush.

I say keep on making the kind of art you want to make, but do it in a well ventilated area.

[sharprm]

I'm sure there are lots u can do on your own like from the loomis books. For instance your avatar the nose insn't centred. Make sure you draw the hair last after you have constructed the features right. If you don't know what i mean by construction, check this blog out: http://johnkcurriculum.blogspot.com/

I never went to art school. I think u get that HATE a little on art forums and its best just to be a troll and HATE back. But don't do it in real life because u could get punched in the face. It'd be funny though, telling an abstract artist "my 5 year old cousin could give you some pointers". Although not funny at the same time because its true.

[arenhaus]

sharprm - looks like that guy at johnkcurriculum harvests a lot of material from Preston Blair and Frank and Ollie's "The Illusion of Life" - and doesn't even give obvious credit to the latter. Not classy.

[ExiledRed]

I faced the same issues when I first studied Graphic Design in 1992

I despised being forced to make sculptures out of wire, and to make pin hole cameras and take hockney-esque photographs, and tracing around fonts despite the fact that computers were making the practise redundant.
My desire to learn how to create comic books, was derided and scorned. When I told my teacher I wanted to do comics he said.

"Well, when I was a kid, I wanted to be a train driver"

So I quit in frustration, close to the end of the course, when I only needed to hang in for another two months.

Did I get the job in comics? did I become a designer?

No, I ended up fucking around for ten years doing jobs I hated, and wishing I'd just done I was told. It's taken me a looong time to get to a position were I dont have to bluff my credentials, and I had to go back to school eventually anyway.

Just suck it up, and stay true to what you are, there's a ton of stuff to be learned outside of your interests and these things will eventually strengthen your understanding of art as a whole, and will improve your work, without you realising it.

[ajvenema]

Thanks a lot, Zazers and Bhanu!

I went to search for Ben Shahn and Brad Holland. Some of their illustration works (these are exactly the type of "deliberate distortions" I'm referring to):


If you guys didn't clear that up for me today, I would still be thinking illustration = fine art drawings deliberately distorted to an extreme!

Thanks!
Xeon :)


I dont really see what is wrong with those distorted things, that dont look the way they would in real life. That is because its NOT real life. the good thing of illustration is that you can let the things do things they wouldnt be in real life. Sometimes, a lot of times, a story doesnt require just a plain drawing of what is happening in the story. In my opinion a good illustration adds something to the story. A look on a side that isnt represented a lot in the story, something that puts the story in a different perspective, or maybe kind of abstract way to combine different elements in the story to make it make more sense. if the illustration is not about a very craftful painted person or house, why draw that? just drawing realistic is definitely not always the best solution. you can look for solutions in realistic drawing, but you can also look in forms, colors, materials, objects or whatever. just a realistic drawing of whats happening is not always the best solution, and at least not the most exciting.

The illustrational works of for example norman rockwell, very figurative, are absolutely great, and im not sure about this, but i think definitely add to the story, but then thats also because good concepts, and not just because he draws people so well. Its much harder to look for an interesting point of view and technique to make the reader think instead of just consume.

Thats also what it is about when people are talking about to illustrative. at my school at least. The way of putting it is just a little odd, because it sounds like an attack on illustration in general, where its just about drawing scenes.
Just drawing a scene thats in the story doesnt bring you anywhere further. anyone can think of that. you have to come up with something surprising, something thats might even confuse you at the first look. something that adds something to the story.
for a story about space marines, its not really challenging to draw some space marines fighting. that would make illustration just a matter of drawing skills, where, in my opinion, it also is a big deal about thinking, twisting, and challenge people.

[bcarman]

If I had a nickel for every time there was a discussion about illustration vs. fine art or how bad my teacher is I would own the world. Look, take responsibility for your own education. learn to ask the right questions. Demand answers from your teachers. if they don't have them ask another. Learn from what they have to say. Starting an education with a closed mind is intellectual suicide. Every person you meet in life will have stuff to teach you. We all sift and take what we need and discard the rest. Things are no different in school. You just have it in a concentrated version. Education is about learning to learn. Discover different systems of learning and use them to your advantage. Every different thing that you draw will add vocabulary to your space marines and other things. I actually did something similar when I was in graduate school. I stopped my subscription to Communication Arts and stopped looking at illustration annuals, I was in an MFA painting program. It really helped me to focus on building a different visual vocabulary. When I finished I bought the back issues that I missed but I believe I did the right thing by putting myself in a different mind set. Adapting your habits in school will not change you. it may reveal that you are something other than you thought or that maybe there is more to you than you thought.
Finally, there is really no reason for the art vs. illustration thing. Illustration has it's own richer history and doesn't need to aspire to anything else but itself.

[ExiledRed]

If I had a nickel for every time there was a discussion about illustration vs. fine art or how bad my teacher is I would own the world. Look, take responsibility for your own education. learn to ask the right questions. Demand answers from your teachers. if they don't have them ask another. Learn from what they have to say. Starting an education with a closed mind is intellectual suicide. Every person you meet in life will have stuff to teach you. We all sift and take what we need and discard the rest. Things are no different in school. You just have it in a concentrated version. Education is about learning to learn. Discover different systems of learning and use them to your advantage. Every different thing that you draw will add vocabulary to your space marines and other things. I actually did something similar when I was in graduate school. I stopped my subscription to Communication Arts and stopped looking at illustration annuals, I was in an MFA painting program. It really helped me to focus on building a different visual vocabulary. When I finished I bought the back issues that I missed but I believe I did the right thing by putting myself in a different mind set. Adapting your habits in school will not change you. it may reveal that you are something other than you thought or that maybe there is more to you than you thought.
Finally, there is really no reason for the art vs. illustration thing. Illustration has it's own richer history and doesn't need to aspire to anything else but itself.

This is why I wish I'd had the internet and this site back in '92.
You couldn't buy advice like this back then, and now its being given for free.

I hope the OP and others in this situation appreciate this, take this advice and use it to make a good decision.

[sharprm]

sharprm - looks like that guy at johnkcurriculum harvests a lot of material from Preston Blair and Frank and Ollie's "The Illusion of Life" - and doesn't even give obvious credit to the latter. Not classy.

Actually he does give credit even asking people to buy the Preston Blair book on the front page. I did a quick search and John K said the following about the later book:


The book is mainly a propaganda piece for Disney. It claims that only Disney animation is worth anything, that they invented everything and completely discounts other cartoons-even cartoons that are far superior to theirs in terms of acting and gags, both of which, for some inexplicable reason, Disney prides itself on.

It has one good chapter-the one about principles of animation-some of which they never use themselves.

I think he is a good person sharing knowledge that I found very useful for free. I'd recommend it to people who don't already know about construciton.

[jadestinger]

Thanks a lot for the replies guys. I sorta forgot that I made this thread a few days after I posted it (middle of the semester, lots of work and stress and what not). Was feeling awfully discouraged, but I've snapped out of it now, more or less.

The various advice makes a lot of sense, I'm not sure what I was thinking when I posted this, haha. Feeling pretty foolish about letting others discourage me, and also not seeing that I had something to learn from everything else. Since then I've been trying to improve my content and composition as well.

I learned and realized a lot from the replies, thanks again!