Random Brain/art Discussion...

[TXF]

No, this isn't for smart people to be smart and answer math problems and such. It's for discussion about the brain itself.


I always get frustrated, in knowing that my brain knows what things look like..or how things should be shaded. It knows how to draw..yet when I draw, I can't.-

-Example..I go to sleep. I have a dream. Now, in that dream, everything looks how I'd expect it to look, if it were in real life. Perspective, anatomy, proportions, shadows and highlights, and everything else looks perfectly realistic...I've even had times where, in my dream, I sit and draw some awesome drawing, from start to finish, which implies, that my brain must know how to draw already. Yet when I go to sit and draw, my brain just...quits working.

Anyone else ever think about things like this? Or am I just weird? <.<

Try to keep this about the brain AND art..since I posted this in art discussion.. Thanks.

[Craig D]

When you're dreaming, you just think you see everything as perfectly shaded. But it's not.

[Jovian M]

Your brain knowing how to draw, and your arm knowing how to draw are two different things. Very different, chuci.

[Raoul Duke]

This is a great subject. Your absolutely right about how subconsciously we know how to draw. Drawing is a physical conscious act. It's two sides of the brain that are worlds apart. Our bodies know physics better than any professor, but we don't consciously understand it.

I did notice in a dream that peoples likenesses change. The shading, edges and color seems to be in place, but we assume more than we know. Surrealism is dedicated to this subject, but I find impressionism more relevant.

Last time I took mushrooms (not condoning it) it looked like many Hindu and Buddhist patterns, but glowing and flashy like in Las Vegas. The dirt was like a Persian rug. I think many patterns and aesthetic themes come from that corner of the brain. Maybe it has to do with the way we adapt to and recognize our surroundings.

[Two Listen]

The questions surrounding our brains, our minds, and our souls are infinite, and equally beyond our reach. We'll eventually find cause and effect relationships between certain things, but we'll never quite figure out why...or how, or if we've figured it all out, or if we've only thought that we did.

Why is it that a man could live for 300 years, and still keep learning? Why is it that our minds have no limit to what they can know, or subconsciously log away? Is it not just matter? Chemicals, tissue? How is it we can store an infinite amount of information, in a seemingly finite amount of space? Does it go beyond that? Is it really just...our brains, or something more than that? Is it that "knowledge" isn't actually here, at all? That we're not storing "matter" inside of a container, but that it's of some completely different existence...and that its container doesn't even matter?

Why do we have instincts? How is it our minds, in less than a year, can go from being smaller than a period on a sheet of paper...to having instincts and feelings of fear, default reactions to various stimuli and experiences? Where does it come from? Why is it some are born with a knowledge, talent, and instincts that others are not - even when coming from the same DNA?

Why is it that we dream? Why do dogs dream, as well? Why is it some 70% of the population seem to have had at least one prophetic dream, in their lifetimes? Why is it we forget them so soon after waking? Why is it possible to have a 5 minute dream, that takes place over 3 real world hours? Or the vice versa, having hours worth of dreams take place in just a matter of minutes?

Why is it that people who experiences various altered mental states, or "highs" as you might call them, often times recall seeing some of the same things - even when they're thousands of miles apart, or having lived in separate generations? "Machine elves", as an example?

Why is it some people CAN simply see, and replicate physically in a drawing? Why is it some can see more beautiful imagery in their heads, and not be able to produce more than stick figures on paper? Why is it some people can know so much about people, simply be encountering them even for a brief matter of seconds? Whereas others remain clueless as to people's intentions, even when being exposed to them more than many others?

So many questions, too many to list, or to count.

Personally, I like it that way. I don't think we're supposed to know. It's not in our nature to know. And in addition, based off what what little I DO know, I know that knowing is one of the most burdensome things in the world.

I know not why it is I dream the things I dream, or why I feel I'm capable of certain things only to lose it all in a matter of seconds upon trying. I'm not sure why my wife has different feelings and instincts to me, or why animals can seemingly feel the world more than we can. And I don't really want to.

I find the mysteries very comforting. It's too much for people, we, who seem to need to control so much. I like knowing that existence itself is far above and beyond our control, that chance is always a factor, and that sometimes we'll just have to accept it.

I just want to live my life, to find my place in this world so that by the time my time is up, I able to at least have played my part to the best of my ability.

[arenhaus]

Too many questions. ;)

Too many questions formulated for the sense of wonder, not for getting useful answers, that is. :) I could answer meticulously, question after question, but I am not sure that it's what you want. "I know not.... and I don't really want to", you say? It's called willful ignorance, man. If you choose to ignore what you can learn about the way your brain works, then your brain's built-in automation will control you, ultimately, without you even noticing.

You can get the answers for most of these questions quite easily. A basic neurophysiology text would be a good starter. Add some embryology, and comparative anatomy of central nervous system. And a primer on theory of probabilities should be good, on the side. :)

[sharprm]

Too many questions formulated for the sense of wonder, not for getting useful answers, that is. :)

oooh oooh sometimes people give definitions of art that aren't well thought through like "art is simply creation", "art is about understanding the universe". Are these people crossing wires in their brain or something to get a false sense of wonder? Is there a neurological type explanation for 'mystical' thinking? (ie. imagining contradicting things can be true at the same time, trying to imagine everything)

Thankyou

[Two Listen]

It's called willful ignorance, man. If you choose to ignore what you can learn about the way your brain works, then your brain's built-in automation will control you, ultimately, without you even noticing.

It is not ignorant to acknowledge mystery where mystery exists, nor useless to wonder for the sake of it having occurred to you.

And...unfortunately, no, you couldn't answer half of those questions. There exists not an answer to those questions. What do you think I did before I was set on being an artist? I've studied relatively extensively memory, the brain, mental illness, dreaming, things of this nature. There exist many theories in relation to these questions, but all a theory gets you is one more mystery to try and solve, not an answer. We can measure the results, sometimes, but we know not truly why. We can tell when a person is dreaming, or when someone is having a "night terror", but can we identify and predict exactly what the person will dream about ahead of time? Or why? No. You could theorize that an excess of things like DMT might be cause for certain mental illnesses, but these correlations do nothing more than expose how deep a mystery we truly are.

You're welcome to spend your time "solving" all of these problems for me, should you wish it. But I fear attempting to do so would only make my point all the more clear. With every cause and effect relationship you discover, with every drug you test the effects of, with every brain scan you study, you only wind up understanding more and more one thing:

We are a mystery.

Personally, I find that to be a very worthwhile bit of knowledge.

[OmenSpirits]

Art is a three letter word.

Brain is a five letter word.

Learning is an eight letter word.

Practice is a pronoun. Means action, something done to try and either perfect or understand.

Your mind is a theory. Your dreams are theories, gauged to exist by scientific methods.

Circles and circles go we, till the moment we pass into infinity...

[squidmonk3j]

Your brain knows how to fool you with magnificent displays of association and synthesis. A static picture cannot equal the perceived movement of a 24 frame pr second animation, and, for the very same reason, you'll never equal the skill of your dream self.

[Ivory_Oasis]

Yup, people naturally know how things should look. We naturally are GREAT at anatomy, proportions, lighting, atmosphere, perspective.

Just think about it. If we didn't know these things on some level, would we be able to look at a picture that was "off" in some aspect and be able to tell? Even non-artists can look at a picture and know something is wrong or the person doesnt "look like a person".

The problem is being able to break down the many aspects that make up the final image. It's like in color. You may see the color is not the same as you are trying to match, anyone can hold one color to another and say "yea, not the same" (unless you are color blind). But, not everyone has the information on how they are constructed. Not everyone has the knowledge on the various aspects of color and their effects on what you are working with.

Is it the value of the color that is off? Does it need a little more red? Maybe there is actually a little blue in there that gives it a specific subtle shade? Knowing the various aspects like this allows us the freedom to tweek it until it looks right....it teaches us how to manipulate what we are working with to match our natural sense of "yea, that color is the same color".

It's the same with drawing. You need to learn the aspects which allow you to manipulate the image closer to what you feel is right.

If you have ever worked on a picture and come to a dead end where you just KNOW "this doesn't look right" and then been told to change a small aspect (like softening the edge between the sky)....then you understand how knowledge of the mechanics of what we see is really important (and simply knowing what is right or wrong isn't enough).

It's kind of like cooking. You know when the apple pie tastes right... but you aren't quite sure the exact chemisty of ingredients needed to make it work (and trying to re-invent the wheel by working backwards through trial and error isn't the best idea...it would take a very long time to try and just "figure it out"). You need to know the science of cooking to really be able to manipulate the pie to how you want it. You need to know how taste works and exactly how each ingredient on its own affects the outcome (the mechanics of more butter in the crust, or the mechanics of how you mix the dough).

[alesoun]

I work with words a fair amount, and often dream that I'm reading something. This would happen night after night until, one night, in that phase between sleeping and waking, I actually tried to look at the letters on the page.

You know what? They were gibberish! I think my brain was filling in gaps, if you know what I mean. The things you dream are imperfect, and your brain "translates" the way you see them, so that they seem to be more perfectly formed than they actually are.

I don't know if this explains anything particularly well, but maybe you can pick some sense out of it?

[arenhaus]

What you said. Dreams are mostly higher level impressions, not sensory input which is turned off during sleep. So even though you can get incredible detail if you focus on something, it is all at least one level removed from perception, not any analog of actual perception. Given that the primary function of dreams is believed to be reprocessing and sorting of memories, this is not unlikely.

It's somewhat like how visual imagination works in most people: a "map" of the picture, not the raw picture itself. But since the brain primarily works with maps, you don't realize the difference between the map and the image unless you focus on it; at which point the brain either generates a more detailed map, or the whole thing falls apart.

Brain processing power also seems to limit the potential detail level of dreams, by some reports by lucid dreamers. These reports are by necessity subjective, of course. But there seems to be so much "power" available to the dreaming brain; if you overreach with detail, something else is going to get blurred, or nonsensical. Often there is a resolution limit even in what you focus on - like the garbage text that, at a cursory glance, seemed to make sense. (Text, for some reason, is especially bad in dreams; while visual and auditory imagery can be very detailed, text has trouble staying meaningful and even staying consistent between two glances. It's one of the more reliable methods of detecting that you are dreaming: try reading something. You either can't or the text does not stay the same, if you are dreaming.)

Another limitation of dreams is that their content is fluid: it adapts to your attention, expectations and emotions. Imagery matches what you expect, but it always has some random element to it. The image processor circuitry is guessing wrong, probably; I suppose it's not that smart, on its own, being rather specialized, and can't second guess the general reasoning very well.

(I am not going to dwell on the false dichotomies between "wonder" and knowledge. When someone is firmly set on believing in unsolvable mysteries, I have seldom seen any constructive discussions resulting.)

[George Abraham]

Dreams are as detailed as your attention is at any given moment, you can't pay attention to everything at once with the same amount of visual processing.

Let's say dreams render what's required by your attention at any given time.

Last night I saw jewels to most satisfactory precission. Some fart yelled.. THATS MINE!!!
Sheesh.. The moment you see the pretties....

wonder if there's not a green jewel thief on the prowl.

The brain process dreams in reverse, the final effect you get is the controller to begin with so nothing will be rendered that disturbs that, I find it hard to look at a page and read something logical from it, that's because logic would be disrubtive to the whole process and not to mention cause sivere introspective mind cracking puzzle solving when you wake up. So it's better for that part of the mind to just save all that crazyness and scramble anything that can be interpreted into oblivion.