"Traditional" Anime Style?

[tigerwong]

Ok, I've seen posts in the job forums saying that they are looking for art or animation in the "traditional" anime style; i've also dealt with a client who constantly talked about having "Asian authenticity" in the artwork.

What IS that???

First off, what qualifies as "traditional" anime style? There are so many published Japanese comic artists, character designers and animators who all draw in different styles from each other, so how cananyone say what the "traditional" style is? I can understand if someone says that they're looking for a "classic" anime style; that, to me, says Osamu Tezuka, Leiji Matsumoto, early or pre-eighties era. Of course, a person would have to be specific about which classic artist they're referring to, because there is a wide range of styles that are all considered to be "classic."

Among contemporary Japanese artists, there is an even wider range of styles; Masamune Shirow, Ken Akamatsu, Rumiko Takahashi, Akira Toriyama, Yasuhiro Nightow, the artists of CLAMP, Studio 4C, and Madhouse, all have widely varied styles, yet are all "anime" style. Which one is an artist who is asked for "anime style" supposed to emulate when the request isn't any more specific?

Furthermore, when some requests the even more amorphous "Asian authenticity," what then? Chinese Kung Fu comic style (varied, but seemingly less so)? Manhwa style (also varied)? How are we supposed to narrow that down, other than to follow given character designs (if we're not the ones generating them)?

Honestly, I think what it comes down to is that when people say "traditional" anime style without being specific about an artist whose style they like, or when they harp on and on about not wanting an "Americanized" but Japanese looking style, what they actually mean is that they want a STEREOTYPICAL "anime" style.

They want art that matches their preconcieved notions of what they THINK anime is. Considering anime's history, and the fact that early artists like Osamu Tezuka and later artists like Yoshitaka Amano at first emulated the Disney artists and Jack Kirby respectively, those preconcieved notions reflect a great deal of cultural and artistic myopia. Granted, usually the people making requests like this are not artists themselves. We can only hope that for all of their ignorance, they can at least pay well. Sadly, in my experience anyway, they haven't even had that going for them.

Okay, rant over.

[Psychotime]

Why not ask them what they mean? Cause it doesn't actually make any sense.

And what the heck does Amano have in common with Kirby, AT ALL? If it's his old work, that's something I wanna see.

Also, anime/manga isn't a style if you ask me. It's no more than the word we use to refer to Japanese animation, and manga is the word they use to refer to sequential art in their language.

The thing is, most Japanese artists draw the exact same way, with exceptions of course.

[tobbA]

Traditional manga Hokusai style?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Hokusai-MangaBathingPeople.jpg

[tobbA]

Actually... Someone did make an animation out of Hokusai's paintings.

It's quite beautiful

FmFGtsG_EgA

[Psychotime]

Oh! I remember that!

[tigerwong]

Why not ask them what they mean? Cause it doesn't actually make any sense.

And what the heck does Amano have in common with Kirby, AT ALL? If it's his old work, that's something I wanna see.

Also, anime/manga isn't a style if you ask me. It's no more than the word we use to refer to Japanese animation, and manga is the word they use to refer to sequential art in their language.

The thing is, most Japanese artists draw the exact same way, with exceptions of course.

Oh yes, of course. And most american artists draw the same way too. Of course. Because we all have the same experiences and have the same influences. It's so simple! /sarcasm. Of course there are exceptions. Thing is, way more published Japanese artists have differing styles than similar.

And yeah, Amano's really early character design work for Tatsunoko shows Kirby influence. He's obviously come into his own in 30+ years.

In my experience, asking what the clients mean by "anime style" has led to some explanation, and the result is usually "big eyes, small mouth." In some very annoying cases they make the excuse that anime is "just that special something" but that my style (and other non Japanese artists) is too "americanized." Um, duh! We're not Japanese.

Anyway, it's very frustrating.

[Psychotime]

In order to keep my post from being huge, I just posted the urls instead.

You pick up a Japanese comic or cartoon, it's more likely gonna look like another comic or cartoon. There are variations, sure. But the lines are usually drawn between the genre of the work.

Shoujo, Shounen, Horror, Action. They will usually look similar to each other based on what it is and who it's aimed at.

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00003422/000308402/03.jpg
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00005312/000297412/03.jpg
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00002612/000308732/02.jpg
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00002672/000126362/03.jpg
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000076/000029545/04.jpg

I stopped caring about it, really. But I do favor looking at work that actually looks unique more than the opposite.

[QueenGwenevere]

You pick up a Japanese comic or cartoon, it's more likely gonna look like another comic or cartoon. There are variations, sure. But the lines are usually drawn between the genre of the work.

Shoujo, Shounen, Horror, Action. They will usually look similar to each other based on what it is and who it's aimed at.

Oy. Not any more similar than Western comics of the same genre.

Your examples seem to be mostly B-grade and a bit on the generic side, which may be why you have the impression that it's "all the same." Many artists at the beginning of their careers will start by imitating other artists, or may have picked up their style by working as an assistant to another artist... and B-grade artists will often work in more or less generic popular styles. But a lot of the better, more mature artists seem to have very different styles. For instance, looking at random at my own collection, I see a wide range of styles even in one genre/audience.

Some shoujo artists with totally different styles: CLAMP (who have a range of styles themselves,) Mineo Maya, Aoike Yasuko, Ryoko Yamagishi, Riyoko Ikeda (I could hunt down some more but I have more shounen, so...)

Some shounen artists with totally different styles: Otomo Katsuhiro, Kubo Tite, Oda Eiichiro, Leiji Matsumoto, Hiromu Arakawa, Rumiko Takahashi, Mamoru Nagano, Inoue Takehiko, Osamu Tezuka

Yes, those are from all different periods, but that's kind of the point, really. Anime and manga have been around a long time, there are different periods, different styles over time, different styles from different artists, etc. You can't say there's just one anime style. But people unfamiliar with anime often don't realize this, and have a vague idea that it's all about "big eyes", and that's it...

Then again, people unfamiliar with western comics think they all look exactly the same, too. So go figure.

[ExiledRed]

I have a british accent. That's exactly how my canadian friends and relatives would describe the way I talk( I live in Canada)

In Britain, I have a scouse accent, it is remarkably different from a brummy accent, a yorkshire accent, a somerset accent, or a cockney accent. Any brit could figure out where I was from, but as far as any canadian or american is concerned, it is a British accent and indistinguishable from any other British accent.

This is amazing to me, because in England my accent screams 'working class, rough around the edges, northern and quick tempered' yet I know one canadian girl who claims 'I talk like a prince'

Anyway, I think this is a good analogy. I can't tell the difference between anime artists either, or at least, the differences aren't notable, but they ARE there and they ARE notable to those who give a damn.

[Elwell]

In Britain, I have a scouse accent, it is remarkably different from a brummy accent, a yorkshire accent, a somerset accent, or a cockney accent. Any brit could figure out where I was from, but as far as any canadian or american is concerned, it is a British accent and indistinguishable from any other British accent.

It's worse than that; to most Americans, Australians and South Africans sound "British," too.
Of course it works the other way as well. As an American who watches a lot of British television, I'm always amused when upper-class "American" characters speak in some strange accent that amalgamates Brooklyn and the upper Midwest.

[ExiledRed]

It's worse than that; to most Americans, Australians and South Africans sound "British," too.
Of course it works the other way as well. As an American who watches a lot of British television, I'm always amused when upper-class "American" characters speak in some strange accent that amalgamates Brooklyn and the upper Midwest.

It's actually even worse than that!

When I commented on the canadian accent to a group of canadians, I was curtly informed that canadians dont have an accent.

I mean......wut?

Worse still, people sing 'chim chiminee' at me for fun.
Dick van Dyke had the most ridiculous imitation cockney accent ever (Kyor Ber-limey eets Merry Po-ppins)

by the way, what the hell is an upper class american?...........:D

[QueenGwenevere]

Heh, accents are a perfect analogy, actually... (It's just like the way people lump all of New England into one mythical "New England accent" - but New Englanders know Maine is different from Vermont is different from Massachusetts, etc.)

Another comparison might be familiarity with any major artistic region or period. To someone unfamiliar with renaissance art, all renaissance art looks the same. To someone unfamiliar with impressionism, all impressionists look the same. To someone unfamiliar with traditional Japanese art, all Japanese art looks the same. Etc., etc., etc.

If someone comes to me with that kind of fuzzy thinking, sometimes I show them a bunch of style samples to try to pin down what they really have in mind.

[Psychotime]

Oy. Not any more similar than Western comics of the same genre.

Your examples seem to be mostly B-grade and a bit on the generic side, which may be why you have the impression that it's "all the same." Many artists at the beginning of their careers will start by imitating other artists, or may have picked up their style by working as an assistant to another artist... and B-grade artists will often work in more or less generic popular styles. But a lot of the better, more mature artists seem to have very different styles. For instance, looking at random at my own collection, I see a wide range of styles even in one genre/audience.

Some shoujo artists with totally different styles: CLAMP (who have a range of styles themselves,) Mineo Maya, Aoike Yasuko, Ryoko Yamagishi, Riyoko Ikeda (I could hunt down some more but I have more shounen, so...)

Some shounen artists with totally different styles: Otomo Katsuhiro, Kubo Tite, Oda Eiichiro, Leiji Matsumoto, Hiromu Arakawa, Rumiko Takahashi, Mamoru Nagano, Inoue Takehiko, Osamu Tezuka

Words bolded for obvious reasons. Names bolded for awesomeness. But I do think Arakawa is gradually getting more generic than what she was when she started. (I just finished reading the entire FMA manga a few hours ago, coincidentally. Can't wait till next month.)

Wow. I just realized that I brought this subject into the thread.

But really, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. You've already confirmed what I'm saying: that the people with original styles are in the minority. I never said they were ALL the same. But I guess you might have just skimmed what I was saying because it sounds like the same tired things people usually say. Understandable.

Yes, those are from all different periods, but that's kind of the point, really. Anime and manga have been around a long time, there are different periods, different styles over time, different styles from different artists, etc. You can't say there's just one anime style. But people unfamiliar with anime often don't realize this, and have a vague idea that it's all about "big eyes", and that's it...

Then again, people unfamiliar with western comics think they all look exactly the same, too. So go figure.

And I said earlier that anime/manga isn't a style at all. It's just a name for the mediums based on their country of origin.

I think the whole idea of there being an anime "style" at all comes from both the people who DON'T watch/read it, and weeaboos. Also included would be the people who choose to draw generic "anime" style. (No offense intended toward anyone.)

Ok, back on topic.

ALSO: Kiera, I freakin' love Gon. It's a shame I can't physically find it anywhere other than one store, which is too far right now.

[sarinn]

When I commented on the canadian accent to a group of canadians, I was curtly informed that canadians dont have an accent.

I mean......wut?

Bah, you're talking to the wrong ones, then.

- I abuse the word "eh?" (yes it is a word, I don't care what others think)
- I'm told by Americans I say "aboat", not "aboot", and definitely do not say "about"
- I've been told I say "pasta" differently. But she's from Chicago and sounds like she belongs in the mob.
- Z <-- that's pronounced "zed".

Silly in denial Canadians.

[OmenSpirits]

Words bolded for obvious reasons. Names bolded for awesomeness. But I do think Arakawa is gradually getting more generic than what she was when she started. (I just finished reading the entire FMA manga a few hours ago, coincidentally. Can't wait till next month.)

Wow. I just realized that I brought this subject into the thread.

But really, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. You've already confirmed what I'm saying: that the people with original styles are in the minority. I never said they were ALL the same. But I guess you might have just skimmed what I was saying because it sounds like the same tired things people usually say. Understandable.



And I said earlier that anime/manga isn't a style at all. It's just a name for the mediums based on their country of origin.

I think the whole idea of there being an anime "style" at all comes from both the people who DON'T watch/read it, and weeaboos. Also included would be the people who choose to draw generic "anime" style. (No offense intended toward anyone.)

Ok, back on topic.

ALSO: Kiera, I freakin' love Gon. It's a shame I can't physically find it anywhere other than one store, which is too far right now.
Gon is on amazon.

[Psychotime]

Notice I used the word "physically"?

I rarely buy online unless I really feel that I have to. It's better to be able to touch and look at the object before I buy it. Definitely if I haven't read/watched it before.

[QueenGwenevere]

And I said earlier that anime/manga isn't a style at all. It's just a name for the mediums based on their country of origin.

Oh, that's right, you did say that... That part I totally agree with, no problems there. Er, but then you said this:

The thing is, most Japanese artists draw the exact same way, with exceptions of course.

Which threw me for a loop, along with the implication that styles within a given genre/audience are all the same, since I honestly see no evidence for either assumption. So did you actually mean that last bit? Because it seems to contradict the first bit...

But really, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. You've already confirmed what I'm saying: that the people with original styles are in the minority.

See, I still don't buy that. As far as I can tell, variation in style is no more the "exception" than with any other popular media. I mean, so far several people have listed a whole bunch of artists who are all different, and we could all go on listing a whole bunch more till the cows come home... Variation of style seems to be about on par with western comics or western animation or anything else. Sure, as with any other popular media, there's hordes of people working in imitative styles that look like the popular titles of the moment, (especially if you're going to count amateurs,) but that doesn't mean the whole field is significantly lacking in variety compared to others.

Or maybe I'm just confused about who's saying what now... Quite possible.

[Falchion]

Traditional anime style? Go check out the classic Astro Boy stuff. Then beat your client into a coma with it.

[Psychotime]

See, I still don't buy that. As far as I can tell, variation in style is no more the "exception" than with any other popular media. I mean, so far several people have listed a whole bunch of artists who are all different, and we could all go on listing a whole bunch more till the cows come home... Variation of style seems to be about on par with western comics or western animation or anything else. Sure, as with any other popular media, there's hordes of people working in imitative styles that look like the popular titles of the moment, (especially if you're going to count amateurs,) but that doesn't mean the whole field is significantly lacking in variety compared to others.

From what I've seen, Japan has many groups that you could mix or match without much noticeable difference.

You go through a anime/manga section in any book/movie store. How many fit the bill of generic? Are any of them linked to each other in any way? If I remember right, anime and manga are significantly under the author's control, at least much more than in the west, where companies usually own the property. They look similar only because they choose to do so.

How many anime/manga look like this? If these artists did a single illustration, that's completely unrelated to any of their stories, could you honestly tell who did what? Could you say that each illustration was done by a different person?

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000123/00000001/01.jpg
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00005562/000272792/02-03.jpg
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00005962/000286362/02.jpg
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000487/000026933/03.jpg
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000294/00000004/05.jpg
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00003932/000210872/05.jpg
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00001512/000221842/03.jpg
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00003632/000176392/12.jpg

You look at the western comics/animation, how many fit the bill of generic? Of course there are some, but how many of those AREN'T linked to another in some way? 2d Disney will look like any other 2d Disney from it's decade. That's gonna be a given.

If the situation in the west is no different from how it is in Japan, I haven't noticed. I can tell that Jeff Smith isn't his influence Walt Kelly. Yes, I can recognize Akira Toriyama easily. But can you say people like Yang Kyung-il stand out? How likely is it to pick up something that looks similar to them?

(Ok, I know that last paragraph really can't do anything for this discussion, but...)

Again, I really don't care too much, because looking like many other works doesn't automatically mean I won't like the story or the characters. It only affects my initial interest.

I've really been derailing this thread with my silly opinion, haven't I? I'll just stop now.

[bloodpearl]

I've been living in Japan with my husband since the beginning of February, and I can honestly say that the only "style" that is all over this country is anime/manga.

I went to an exhibit of artwork at the Suntory Museum and saw Takehiko Inoue's work on display for Vagabond. That was the highlight of my art indulgence in this country, because no one else in the popular light seems to grasp the concept of proper anatomy or originality. It is mind boggling.

When I go to the bookstore and get dragged to the manga section, I look for creativity. I can't find it except with older artists or artists I already know, like Inoue. What is popular right now is big-eyed, large-mouthed generic steaming piles of shit.

Art schools here are a complete waste of time, and the art community is suffering. I've been to one small gallery downtown and to get to it I had to go through a small back alley and climb 3 flights of stairs. The gallery itself was pitiful and had no windows for street display; the only notice that it was even there was a small sign outside denoting its name. You can't walk down the street and expect to see art galleries like you would in a place like San Francisco, not even in the busiest of cities or wards, like Shibuya or Shinjuku in Tokyo.

The lifestyle here is very different. Originality, creativity and individualism are not encouraged, which is why anime/manga flourishes and all tends to borrow from each other. Once in a while there are some artists who come along and wow everyone with their work, but it isn't leaving a lasting impact, and it's sad.

As far as "traditional" anime goes, I don't really understand what that's supposed to mean either, but I'm with the poster who suggested you beat the person over the head with some Tezuka and go from there.

[Psychotime]

That was the highlight of my art indulgence in this country, because no one else in the popular light seems to grasp the concept of proper anatomy or originality. It is mind boggling.

What?

Also, you've been lurking this long?

[Sukizan]

on that topic about proper anatomy,Shoujo style artist have no anatomy,they're drawing have no dept to it,its sad really.

Tho BloodPearl,its not that hard to find illustrations/Manga's with proper anatomy.
its just that the ones with crappy anatomy stand out more :)

[QueenGwenevere]

You look at the western comics/animation, how many fit the bill of generic?

A lot of them? I honestly can't tell the difference between most mainstream superhero comics, even from different publishers... (though I suspect hardcore comic geeks could.) And those are drawn by committee, which seems to melt them all into a big generic puddle...

And a lot of mainstream TV animation just blurs together into homogeneity to me. (Though of course I know there's been a fair amount of unique stuff over the years, too.)

There's schlock in the East and schlock in the West, with high and low periods of schlockiness that come and go. America has certainly had periods of severe schlock. Maybe Japan is entering a period of major schlock right now - but it wasn't always that way.

(Not really related to anything... why are all your mangas from one site? What is that site, anyway?)

When I go to the bookstore and get dragged to the manga section, I look for creativity. I can't find it except with older artists or artists I already know, like Inoue. What is popular right now is big-eyed, large-mouthed generic steaming piles of shit.

Art schools here are a complete waste of time, and the art community is suffering. I've been to one small gallery downtown and to get to it I had to go through a small back alley and climb 3 flights of stairs. The gallery itself was pitiful and had no windows for street display; the only notice that it was even there was a small sign outside denoting its name. You can't walk down the street and expect to see art galleries like you would in a place like San Francisco, not even in the busiest of cities or wards, like Shibuya or Shinjuku in Tokyo.

Wow, really? If that's the case, it's sad. This may explain why a lot of my collection is older stuff. Occasionally I find a new title that interests me, but it occurs to me the titles that are "new" in my local stores may only be "new" in America, not Japan. Hmmm, maybe it's almost better getting manga in the US, then, because the stores are stocked with a lot of comparatively older titles and reprints of classics. (At least the stores near me are.)

And that second statement would explain why recent exhibits of contemporary Japanese art seem to showcase a lot of not-so-very-recent stuff (mid-Nineties, tops.)

Guess I'll stock up on more classics, then. Until the next wave of decent artists. ;)

[Psychotime]

It's one site I read manga from that I found over a week ago. Some translations of older stuff are a little wonky, but it's a really good site.

They've got 1131 to chose from. The popular stuff is always covered, but I feel the site has enough variety.