Project Gustav = artists wet dream/corel's worst nightmare

[AdventDawn]

http://gizmodo.com/5483153/project-gustav-microsoft-research-updates-ms-paint-in-a-huge-way

U'll also notice Nelson chu behind moxie in some of those vids. Seems like after five years of teasin us we'll finally get a taste of the mythical digital paint program.

It's about damn time we got some serious competition to break up the corel and photoshop monopoly in the digital painting realm.


I haven't found much over it though, and the youtube films mostly just some guy talking about it. What little is shown though is enough to get real excited over

[dose]

Very cool. It's like Artrage + multitouch + 3D.

[Raoul Duke]

Gee thanks allot. watch this video while I change my pants.
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[egerie]

Oh my... Put some animation abilities on that thing please please please!

[bjoern3000]

http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=182962&highlight=gustav

[Kraus]

Hmm deffinetly cool, but i wouldn't say an alternative to what i'm allready used to. I think i haven't touched traditional painting for so long i have an allergic reaction to features like these.

[Psychotime]

Looks cool.

[HunterKiller_]

Is all the buzz about the software or the touch screen?

The software doesn't look all that different from Painter or Artrage.
The screen looks functional. Put it on a laptop and they've got themselves a deal.

[AdventDawn]

its the watercolors and sumie ink from moxie that i'm excited about...although the fact that I haven't seen anything in that regard has me worried.

[Raoul Duke]

AdventDawn-What is this "moxie" you speak of?

Put it on a laptop and they've got themselves a deal.

I'm just hoping it launches bundled on the MS Courier (http://gizmodo.com/5380626/courier-user-interface-in-depth//gallery/9). Both are Microsoft. Both are pandering to us. Both are likely to fail without a strong kick off.

[hecartha]

Put it on a laptop and they've got themselves a deal.On this video from MIX 2010, Bill Buxton (http://www.billbuxton.com/) said it runs actually also on TX2 HP laptop for sketch flow.
The main Microsoft site about project Gustav is there:
Project Gustav: Immersive Digital Painting (http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/gustav/)
The MIX 2010 video is on this page also (at 5'18", Bill Buxton talks about using on laptop)
AdventDawn-What is this "moxie" you speak of?Here the website about MoXi by Nelson Chu (http://www.cs.ust.hk/%7Ecpegnel) and Chiew-Lan Tai (http://www.cs.ust.hk/%7Etaicl)
MoXi: Real-Time Ink Simulation (http://visgraph.cs.ust.hk/MoXi/)

For the little story, Adobe licensed their MoXi technology in september 2007 (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=462318) (you can see the result now inside Photoshop CS5) and Nelson Chu was hired later by Microsoft.

Anyway, Moxie seems to be something else from Adobe which has to do with flash or flex~

Courier, Gustav...I don't remember having so enthusiast about Microsoft project before and if we link that with this kind of research, that is becoming really interesting

9sTgLYH8qWs

[Raoul Duke]

This is the third time I've posted this, this week. But really Hodgeman says it all.
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=956058&stc=1&d=1271313377

[QueenGwenevere]

I waaaaant iiiitttt...

I wonder if this will push Apple to develop the iPad into something better than a giant iPhone, or if Apple is just going to fade out of the picture...

[Gerulaitis]

Pretty lovely app.

Yet I'm a bit skeptical about this being any serious threat to PS and Painter... Sure, it's fun, nice, but it looks more like a toy for simulating traditional media (oh, just look at the animated 3d brush, how cute...) than a digital tool ment to be functional, practical (yes, I'm going to be spending 20 seconds smudging digital paint each time I require a color when a deadline is breathing down my neck) and - most importantly - versatile. It's another ArtRage - great for spicing up the look of a painting, and probably in good competition to it. But PS and Painter both have a decent degree of versatility, they're actually ment to be tools for work, and that's why they are still in use to such an extent. I'm not familiar with any concept artists or even illustrators who use ArtRage as their primary software...

[Imaginary]

*cough*

http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=182962

:)

[M-Kaibigan]

But PS and Painter both have a decent degree of versatility, they're actually ment to be tools for work, and that's why they are still in use to such an extent.

Heh. I'd argue that Photoshop isn't meant to be for work. Why else would they add all the stupid gimmicky features that no one uses. Oh wow, I can magically select this twig and delete it! I can turn the image black and white two-hundred different ways!

Photoshop isnt really for professionals. It's just used because there's no substitute. 3D artists have tools that are actually designed for their professional work. 3Ds Max and Maya are wonderful for professionals ~ but nightmares for hobbyists.

I can't say much about painter because I haven't used it, though.

I agree with you on the point that Project Gustav is gimmicky. It's not really something you'd use every day; more like a party piece. It falls on the same lines of Project Natal, Playstation Move, Wii, and etc.
Fun for a bit but not really functional.

Kawaiii 3d brush :3

[Gerulaitis]

Heh. I'd argue that Photoshop isn't meant to be for work. Why else would they add all the stupid gimmicky features that no one uses. Oh wow, I can magically select this twig and delete it! I can turn the image black and white two-hundred different ways!

Photoshop isnt really for professionals. It's just used because there's no substitute. 3D artists have tools that are actually designed for their professional work. 3Ds Max and Maya are wonderful for professionals ~ but nightmares for hobbyists.

I disagree with alot of this.

First of all, there's plenty of alternatives to PS, none of them are in such a wide commercial use, PS is everywhere and it's for a reason. And it IS designed for work, you'd notice it if you have followed its changes for years. There's not alot of features in PS that aren't useful (mostly filters still left from the early long-gone days), if you don't know their proper uses, it's your problem, there are people who need them (what would photomanipulation be without selection tools?). Take the two ways to turn a picture into grayscale: 1) setting the color mode to grayscale takes into account the fact that RGB don't mix in equal proportions in real life (70% is green, for instance), 2) desaturating doesn't - it takes equal proportions of each, the results are different, with different implications, sometimes you need one, other times the other; or take the photo filter color adjustment - one of it's hidden uses is setting white balance: you sample a color that you want to be white, put it as the filter color, but invert the color's A and B values (in lab color values in the color picker) and presto - the sampled color becomes the picture's whitepoint. And just how much stuff can you do with masks, color modes, the useful filters, the brush engine, layer blending modes, color correction layers, some vectors for fun, macros - when you start combining them, the possibilities are nearly limitless. THAT's what I call versatility of tools, they have more than one use for people who think creatively. Just look at how many things PS can do: digital painting (illustration, conceptart, matte painting), digital darkroom, photomanipulations, batch processing, compositing, layout, print (including pantone), image generation and more, and even manages to excell in several fields enought to be the industry's standard. I'd much rather have alot of tools, some of which I don't know what to do with, and not use them, than being artificially limited.

3DsMax has a nice learning curve and tons of tutorials online, it's quite forgiving for hobbyists willing to put the time in. Maya is harder. 3D is inherently a field ridden with complexities, you either love that or you don't do it as a hobby, or stick to Poser and landscape generating apps.

[ExiledRed]

Heh. I'd argue that Photoshop isn't meant to be for work. Why else would they add all the stupid gimmicky features that no one uses. Oh wow, I can magically select this twig and delete it! I can turn the image black and white two-hundred different ways!

Photoshop isnt really for professionals. It's just used because there's no substitute. 3D artists have tools that are actually designed for their professional work. 3Ds Max and Maya are wonderful for professionals ~ but nightmares for hobbyists.



This is just wrong.

PS isnt meant to rival Maya or 3DS Max, the 3D features introduced in CS4 were to allow importation of models from those programs and the ability to paint directly onto the surfaces of the model using familiar tools (i.e I dont have to learn another platform just to paint a logo onto the t-shirt of your character. It allows a non 3d designer to integrate 3d models into 2d designs, that's all.

As for gimmicks that nobody uses, I think its short sighted of you to limit photoshop to whats useful to you alone, and dismiss all other applications. Photoshop is a professional standard in the photography, graphic design and web design spheres, and there are substitutes, but they dont offer nearly the same versatility and knowing these programs instead of photoshop wont get you hired .

[Raoul Duke]

I waaaaant iiiitttt...

I wonder if this will push Apple to develop the iPad into something better than a giant iPhone, or if Apple is just going to fade out of the picture...

Apple doesn't need to develop the ipad any further, because they have too many die hard fans at this point. If they ignored the gamer demographic, then they can ignore the artist demographic.

[M-Kaibigan]

To the first response, fair enough. I'm not a professional. I'm simply re-ushering the views of a professional I know and I find myself agreeing with him as an enthusiast myself.

Personally I don't see the need for all these features because I don't use them. I want to create art, not modify it so I guess I'm looking for something else out of Photoshop. The point I'm trying to make is that Photoshop, in my opinion, does too much for too many people. Better to split it up into smaller (and cheaper) packages tailored specifically for each professional instead of bunging it all together into a feature-ridden turd. Photoshop and Artshop please.

This is just wrong.

PS isnt meant to rival Maya or 3DS Max...

What? When did I ever suggest that? I never mentioned Photoshop's 3D capabilities and, frankly, you would be a stupid fool to think Photoshop had any advantage over Max or Maya in this domain. I was simply drawing a comparison between the 3D artists' workflow and the 2D artists' workflow. Max and Maya are designed specifically around how a 3D artist works and nothing else. You will find yourself using every tool and function because Autodesk delivers exactly what we're asking for. With Photoshop you're paying for shit you aint gonna touch. Doesn't matter if someone else will use them; I want what I need for my work and I won't be paying for gimmicks that I won't use.

Short-sighted? Maybe I'm too short-sighted to see a use for all of these features. Maybe I'm too short-sighted to see a reason for a 'Sharpen' and 'Sharpen More' feature. As far as I know they haven't improved the base tools that I and many others use all the time. They've only added extra stuff. When are they going to stop adding features and start improving the existing usefull stuff? Yes it works well and good right now, but it still could be better. They should be innovating the core features not adding baseless fluff that'll just increase the installation size.

And this is a subjective opinion I have you know. Everyone has different views. Someone might adore the sharpen more feature... but not me.
I mean, someone's payin' for this stuff right?

[Raoul Duke]

M-Kaibigan- I know what your saying, but you can always buy painter, sketchbook pro, draw rage and many others. Every tool in photoshop is useful to all digital imagers. I don't use three quarters of those features, but every once in a while I use an oddball. There are animation features, sometimes I convert ink to vector paths, I've made cool effects with bevel and emboss, canvas textures. Those are just a few. It's all about what YOU want to do with the program. There may come a time when you can't live without the "sharpen more tool"

[Demo]

Heh. I'd argue that Photoshop isn't meant to be for work. Why else would they add all the stupid gimmicky features that no one uses. Oh wow, I can magically select this twig and delete it! I can turn the image black and white two-hundred different ways!

Photoshop isnt really for professionals. It's just used because there's no substitute. 3D artists have tools that are actually designed for their professional work. 3Ds Max and Maya are wonderful for professionals ~ but nightmares for hobbyists.


This made me lol

[ExiledRed]

To the first response, fair enough. I'm not a professional. I'm simply re-ushering the views of a professional I know and I find myself agreeing with him as an enthusiast myself.

Personally I don't see the need for all these features because I don't use them. I want to create art, not modify it so I guess I'm looking for something else out of Photoshop. The point I'm trying to make is that Photoshop, in my opinion, does too much for too many people. Better to split it up into smaller (and cheaper) packages tailored specifically for each professional instead of bunging it all together into a feature-ridden turd. Photoshop and Artshop please.



What? When did I ever suggest that? I never mentioned Photoshop's 3D capabilities and, frankly, you would be a stupid fool to think Photoshop had any advantage over Max or Maya in this domain. I was simply drawing a comparison between the 3D artists' workflow and the 2D artists' workflow. Max and Maya are designed specifically around how a 3D artist works and nothing else. You will find yourself using every tool and function because Autodesk delivers exactly what we're asking for. With Photoshop you're paying for shit you aint gonna touch. Doesn't matter if someone else will use them; I want what I need for my work and I won't be paying for gimmicks that I won't use.

Short-sighted? Maybe I'm too short-sighted to see a use for all of these features. Maybe I'm too short-sighted to see a reason for a 'Sharpen' and 'Sharpen More' feature. As far as I know they haven't improved the base tools that I and many others use all the time. They've only added extra stuff. When are they going to stop adding features and start improving the existing usefull stuff? Yes it works well and good right now, but it still could be better. They should be innovating the core features not adding baseless fluff that'll just increase the installation size.

And this is a subjective opinion I have you know. Everyone has different views. Someone might adore the sharpen more feature... but not me.
I mean, someone's payin' for this stuff right?

Try not to get defensive, man, I'm not trying to piss anybody off here, I felt your comments were wrong, and I still do.

I interpreted your post as '3D software Versus Photoshop' which as you know is like 'Playstation versus a microwave'

Photoshop's versatility and diversity of features is its strength, if they split it up into lots of different packages, the vast majority of its userbase would cry blue murder. Imagine I had to open two programs to paint onto a photograph, or to incorporate a photograph into a painted design? What if I had to open an image in photoshop, resize it, and then import it into illustrator to draw a vector path around the piece I want, apply a clipping mask and then import it back into photoshop to add it to a collage and then load that into your 'artshop' in order to airbrush over an are of the image?....... I'd be pissed Im telling you.

Obviously, the sharpen tool isnt something you use, but you're not correcting photographs are you? I do this, and I use those features often, along with the unsharp mask.

[M-Kaibigan]

M-Kaibigan- I know what your saying, but you can always buy painter, sketchbook pro, draw rage and many others. Every tool in photoshop is useful to all digital imagers.

Good point. I guess I'm looking for an entirely different breed of software altogether.

Try not to get defensive, man, I'm not trying to piss anybody off here, I felt your comments were wrong, and I still do.

I interpreted your post as '3D software Versus Photoshop' which as you know is like 'Playstation versus a microwave'

Photoshop's versatility and diversity of features is its strength, if they split it up into lots of different packages, the vast majority of its userbase would cry blue murder. Imagine I had to open two programs to paint onto a photograph, or to incorporate a photograph into a painted design? What if I had to open an image in photoshop, resize it, and then import it into illustrator to draw a vector path around the piece I want, apply a clipping mask and then import it back into photoshop to add it to a collage and then load that into your 'artshop' in order to airbrush over an are of the image?....... I'd be pissed Im telling you.

Obviously, the sharpen tool isnt something you use, but you're not correcting photographs are you? I do this, and I use those features often, along with the unsharp mask.

A man must protect his homeland as you know.

A little misinterpretation can always be forgiven. Kind of suggests you didn't read between the lines or that you skimmed over the post entirely, ne.

You've heard of the famous phrase "Quality over Quantity" haven't you?

In the gaming industry at its current state today, quantity is the reason all us old school players have dropped out of the market entirely. There's too much shit being pushed in one end with devs hoping something good comes out the other end. Unfortunately, when you push shit through a tube, it's still shit... just... in a tube-like shape. For some reason the kids out there enjoy shit. There's no quality. Only quantity. Of course, indie games like Mount & Blade are highly enjoyable and a few great titles come out here and there but they're nothing in comparison to what we had years ago (and they're few and far between). It's the reason I don't play games anymore and instead stick to novels. Or maybe I'm getting old.

If you're saying Photoshop's strength is in its quantity I would have to say that I am, now today, no longer a Photoshop fan (bold for dramatic effect).

I value quality over quantity.
I value relationships where both parties gain.

So far the only thing gaining anything is Photoshop's metaphorical money vault. I'm not getting satisfaction from any of these new features.

Another thing that pisses me off is how all these kids float around showing off images that they've shopped thinking that they've created something with skill that no other man could do. Wow you can make it sepia. Wow you can make it black and white. Wow you can make all colours but red disappear! Sugoi!!!

It's like Photoshop lets them pretend that they're professionals by giving them these buttons you push to create interesting results.

I don't like this idea. The idea that one that has never studied can do a job that requires dilligence and patience... and hard work. A profession is a profession and should be treated with respect!

In the programming industry, you know what's putting us out of work? Code generators and etc. Buttons that generate code from a single press. Uncle Joe walks into the office with a fancy box, pushes a button and... hey presto. Code. "This code better than you shit that you program! And cheaper too! You fired!!!" "But I have a contract..." *Uncle Joe eats the contract.* "You no contract now!"

System Architects, Software Designers, Project Leaders, and etc. practically never touch code anymore but the pay shifts more and more in their direction simply because they produce faster results. Results that act like a piece of shit and require no skill or effort (see the tube analogy above). Now they outsource tasks to India and China so the pay grows even smaller. You're paying for quantity not quality. Speed not skill. But that's life, ne.

No I am not happy. I failed to pass The Forest of Photoshop where every single freakin' leaf told me "Hey bro! Photoshop for u bro! Photoshop like pro paintin' bro!!!". I should've bought something else!

Fortunately I am now trialling some other software from other companies that develop specifically for my needs. Maybe I should've trialled Photoshop before I put my wallet in the bin. I can safely say that these trials blow the full copy of Photoshop out of the water and into space. Space on my hard disk drive that is!!!

How I was too blind to notice that the name was 'Photoshop' is beyond me.

[ExiledRed]

err....ok, but just to be clear, diversity and quantity are not the same thing. Just because Photoshop has lots of features, that does not mean they are poor quality features.

Also, if you've software for your limited purposes that you are more comfortable using, and you believe is more refined, and the features you do employ in photoshop arent sufficient for your needs then I'd strongly advise you use it.

I think your rant about digital manipulation and photoshop expertise, is unnecessary and unfounded. Nobody gets a paying job by turning somebody elses photos sepia, nor do you get creative jobs by randomly pressing buttons.

[M-Kaibigan]

Yeah... sorry... I like ranting. More specifically I like making sentence, which makes me think I should drop out of Uni and write a book or something. Well I considered that in past but...

Aye aye... I shall stop now and pick up the software for my purposes, that is more refined, because the features in Photoshop aren't applicable to my needs.

And I just had to get that out there by the way. I've been longing to say something on that accord for some time and this was my opportunity ^- ^

I come from the various mod communities out there by the way and this is where I see people being given spots for the bull I protested ~ which is why I left the modding scene! I have little knowledge of professional accounts other than what I read about and what some o' the lads I know tell me.