What do you think is the difference between drawing loose and messy?

[overclocked~fox~]

Sometimes when I try to draw loose it works really well but then other times it gets messy.....

I press hard when I get frustrated. For some reason drawing lightly is difficult. What do you do when you have a deathgrip on your pencil?

Also how do you get yourself to stop going back and erasing when things get messy?..As a kid I hated things that were messy... (especialy my handwriting lol.) Thats kind of still there. Does anyone relate?

There is this artist I admire, he does really confident illustrations...To be honest he isn't that good at drawing. But thing is he never erases the bad lines, he keeps on going. And they look terrible.....but perfect. Its because he says fuck it, this is going to be awesome... And here I know this but I cant get rid of the demon in my head I guess. Any advice on how to get into that frame of mind?

Recently my hard drive crashed and I lost all those pics of his. I think I'm spelling his name wrong, because I cannot find his online sketchbook anymore. Sucks!!

Does anyone know an artist like the one I described? He is more into graphics than concept art but its all great to me honestly.

If this seems open-ended sorry. The question is elaborate. Just answer it the best way you know how.
Thanks for reading my thread. :D

[Noah Bradley]

Try drawing with pen. You can't erase it, so you're stuck with the marks you make. Should help build some confidence.

[mundanity]

Say, "Fuck it, I am going to be awesome"?

[Kuroyue]

Stroke economy? In a loose drawing, every stroke counts. In a messy drawing, there are lots of unnecessary things that could be simplified or done away with.

[MyOrangeHat]

I'm a super messy scribbly drawer until I go back and clean it up. I've been using the light blue lead in my mech pencil and I can be really messy with that because it is so light and then go back over with normal graphite and just pick up the lines I want.

[macabre]

The difference? One communicates the idea clearly - the other is a mess? :)

[Meloncov]

Two things I can think of:

A loose drawing might have multiple lines, but the most correct one is emphasized over the various exploratory lines. A messy drawing lacks this hierarchy.

A loose drawing may have technical inaccuracies, but said inaccuracies support the artists intent (they caricature, or remove distracting details, or the like). Innacuracies in a messy drawing are merely the product of poor observation.

[Farvus]

I think it's connected with misleading look that loose drawing has. It might look like it's done really fast beacause of more energetic strokes but actually it needs thinking before putting every stroke. If you try to do it too fast it often starts to look like messy drawing.

[AndreasM]

Looseness is a sign of control and confidense. This is true in all performing arts. Look at any great guitarists. Their pick and fingers are in perfect sync. Their fingers knows exactly where they need to go on the fret board and they move about without any execcive movements or strains. It's the same thing with painting and drawing.

[Ivory_Oasis]

Pfft, nothing wrong with making extra strokes....

Whatever gets the job done.

If you are sketching out an idea, go NUTS with lines...who cares? As long as you are thinking through the idea and getting it down on paper in a way that people can see (and a billion lines doesnt matter, we have all seen sketch styles like that).

If you are doing a finished work, well, you can keep going over it and slowly refining what you do (i start off really loose and put stuff all over...and then go back and start cleaning things up and blending and everything else that needs to be done).

The only time you need to be "clean" is when you are doing some styles (like trying to ink a line art or simulate some other type of super clean style). But, even if you look at animation sketches and ideas (before the slow and steady layer on top that the final person sees) it is VERY sketchy with lots of wasted lines all over.

I think there is a misunderstanding that a lot of people have. They look at a piece of art and think that it was just slowly and carefully painted or drawn that way.... when in fact, a lot of people have multiple pages (or layers) which they worked through while cleaning up a little each pass.

[AndreasM]

You are right. As far as idea making goes, the exectuion doesn't matter much.

What I'm talking about has nothing to do with style, though. I'm talking about ease of execution through tons of practice and experience. The drawings that Sargent made for his murals are perfect examples. (http://florenceacademyforum.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=14)

This painting and drawing (http://florenceacademyforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=238&pos=46) by Fortuny, is nother good example. The application is 'rough' but all the necessary information (and then some) is applied with care and precision.

Had those nights when, after hours of doing studies, sketching random poop, your drawings suddenly come together well because you can feel, on an almost tactile level, the things you are drawing? Those drawings doesn't have to be laboured over, because you know with intuition and ease where your lines and values needs to go next....The drawing seems to 'happen' at your touch.

That's the kind of looseness I'm talking about.

[bhanu]

This painting and drawing by Fortuny, is nother good example. The application is 'rough' but all the necessary information (and then some) is applied with care and precision.

Had those nights when, after hours of doing studies, sketching random poop, your drawings suddenly come together well because you can feel, on an almost tactile level, the things you are drawing? Those drawings doesn't have to be laboured over, because you know with intuition and ease where your lines and values needs to go next....The drawing seems to 'happen' at your touch.

That's the kind of looseness I'm talking about.
WORD.
Loose and messy dont have much with the idea being expressed. Its about the level of confidence and skill, and confidence in skill and strokes.
Messy happens when either you arent clear about the idead being expressed or you dont have the necessary skills required to translate the idea onto paper.
Looseness comes from the freedom to choose the strokes and understanding how many different ways an idea can be transferred and communicated.

My two cents.

P.S. - Andreas, awesome link by fortuny. Wow!

[arenhaus]

A loose drawing is, I suppose, one where the line flows smoothly. Messy is where you were unsure how it goes.

Since the line in a drawing is a direct trace of your motion, check whether you move the pencil smoothly. Are you perhaps using your fingers instead of working the whole arm? Are you holding the pencil like a writing pen, maybe?

Here's the discussion of pencil grips I don't want to retype: How to hold the pencil (http://chiseledrocks.com/main/musings/topics/how_to_hold_the_pencil). Check if your grip is right: it could explain both messy line and pressing on the pencil too hard.

[Black Spot]

A messy drawing can turn into a loose one, it you sort of know what you're doing. I like to scribble with a ballpoint and then zone into the main value places. Maybe not the best way to work, but it works for me. It all depends on how much a mess was first there and if you can turn it around without losing everything.

[thinairart]

Messy = grasping @ straws (more is less)

Loose = control & accuracy (less is more)

[thinairart]

Messy = grasping @ straws (more is less)

Loose = control & accuracy (less is more)

[dpaint]

Loose drawing is done with an economy of effort, all your thinking is done ahead of time before you make the mark. Nothing is wasted. The beauty comes from its economy and directness.

Messy drawing is amateurish, amateurs do their thinking on the image, there are unnecessary marks or wasted effort because the person can't control the medium they work with and it shows. Richard Schmid calls this licking the canvas; making marks hoping something will work instead of knowing and just making the mark you need.

[Xeon_OND]

Does anyone know an artist like the one I described? He is more into graphics than concept art but its all great to me honestly.
Pick up Bert Dodson's "Keys to drawing".
His drawings and sketches are loose with plenty of restatements in them, and yet they're accurate. Both him and the drawings of Edgar Degas' and Delacroix's are good if you want to see fine examples of looseness. They'll teach you how NOT to erase when you made a bad or wrong mark / line, just go over it.