My teacher just told me I was degradeing women.

[blueknightfox]

I wanted to paint a mastercopy of the picture of the Sally Jupiter pinup below and when I told my art teacher this she said " That picture and others like it are lowering women to objects for people like you." I tried to compromise, I told that I would hide some "things" but that didn't work. then I told her I was doing it anyway and she said she would fail me and told me to paint a damn boat.

If I do this I fail the class but if I don't I feel like i'm running from a fight. What should I do?

[Dusty]

Wait until after school to be a rebel.
Whatever statement you are trying to make, you won't make it by copying someone else's art anyway.

[hippl5]

Complain to higher-ups? Or maybe you could paint both?

[dpaint]

Screw your teacher; that is inapropiate. If you want to paint something like that, it is your choice, if she fails you appeal it. Nobody cares about school anyway, they just want to see that your portfolio is good. If it was me I'd go to the local paper or tv news station if they fail you and make a scene of it.

[Elwell]

If I do this I fail the class but if I don't I feel like i'm running from a fight. What should I do?
Learn to choose your battles.
The irony of the piece is obviously lost on her, but I expect it's lost on you as well.
If you want to study pinups, you'd do better to look at Vargas, not James Jean doing Vargas (he'd tell you the same thing).

[Wooly ESS]

...for people like you....

There's a world of hurt in that statement!!!!

My question to you, is this the hill you want to die on?

[RyerOrdStar]

I prefer Elvgren...

Seems like you're getting conflicting opinions here

[AWSullivan]

Drop the class and find a teacher who knows the value of their position.

But in truth... pick your battles... become a successful artist and leave her to teach... I think there is a saying about teachers that fits in well here...

~Anthony

[Jack the R]

Paint a picture of John Black (Days of our Lives soap opera) coyly holding a vibrator, and tell her you'll give up your porn when women give up theirs.

But seriously if you have to fight every idiot you'll spend your whole life doing nothing else. Paint a boat this time, become an awesome artist, and release a pin up calender dedicated to your teacher.

edit -

http://scienceblogs.com/isisthescientist/upload/2009/07/go_help_ethan_raise_money_hes/fabio.jpg

Ask her if you can paint this ;)

[Hookswords]

Compromise. You know how the the old flying fortresses would have pin ups painted on the side of them? She wants a a boat. a boat is a ship. a ship can be a plane. Paint a plane with that on the side. Bam

[ArtZealot]

Compromise. You know how the the old flying fortresses would have pin ups painted on the side of them? She wants a a boat. a boat is a ship. a ship can be a plane. Paint a plane with that on the side. Bam

^^^ this

[Baron Impossible]

Tell her you'll paint a boat when she shaves her armpits. Better still, tell her you're not prepared to be accused of being sexist purely because you want to do a study of a perfectly acceptable piece of art.

[Kraus]

Wow what a thunder c%#t.

Don't choose your battles wisely, your wisdom can serve you better in squashing that insectoid. Be sneaky..Convince the higher-ups she's spreading her feminist dogshit where it doesn't belong, not to mention grades people based on her personal bias, and not the academics of it. The goal is to get her fired, but sinse she just revealed her weakness, go further and offend her womanhood.

[Ivory_Oasis]

It's true you should pick your battles... but you should also have the ability to stand up for yourself. Some things are just so minor it's not worth the trouble to bother with. People too often use this as an excuse to avoid confrontation.

Every issue becomes a case of "is it worth it"...and that lets so much injustice continue (even if that injustice is an unreasonable person misusing their power to push an agenda in a classroom).

"Is it worth it" for an employee to report their employer for illegal activity and risk their job? Or is it just easier to look the other way and pretend nothings wrong?

"Is it worth it" for a person to risk their life to gain certain rights? Or is it just easier to live as happily as possible without them?

"Is it worth it" to stop a person from being robbed? Or is it none of your business and easier to pay attention to your own problems?

I'm the type that tends to take on battles without weighing the "cost / benefit" ratio. It's not always easy to do the right thing or stand up for the right course of action. A lot of people simply decide on how to act by how much trouble it will cause them compared to how much they gain for it. It just really depends what type of person you are.

For this sittuation, it's really up to you on what to do. You ARE right and she IS being unreasonable (so if you challenge it, you would probably win by taking it to higher levels). But you risk damaging your reputation and it would cause a lot of work for you.

[Black Spot]

Get your grades. You can always rub her nose in it later if you make it big time.

[Anid Maro]

Here's the big important question, how bad do you need this class? If you don't, then make a fight outta it. If you do, then roll over.

Inglamorous, I know, but some fights aren't worth the trouble.

Personally, my take would be to then make a master copy of a male pin-up and shove that in her face. Or better yet, a hermaphrodite. But then again, I don't think grades are very serious business.

But one thing you're gonna learn from this and other future situations... the world is filled with unbearably irrational pathetic ridiculous petty close-minded dumb-as-a-brick jackasses, and you don't have the time or resources to fight 'em all. One of these days you'll walk away from a fight just because you have better things to do, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Bill]

She's not keeping you from doing the study, she's just keeping you from doing it for her class. I'm guessing that as a pro you'll eventually run into clients who have different ideas than you do on projects. I'd draw the boat and not take her classes in the future.

[Jason Rainville]

I told her I was doing it anyway and she said she would fail me and told me to paint a damn boat.


http://www.tu-pc.com/fondos/media/2664.jpg

[Two Listen]

Haha...this is funny. While it's absolutely true that tons of art these days does seem to work towards the objectification of women...it goes both ways. Just as you have guys drawing scantily clad, overly busty girls do you have tons of girls drawing the same thing.

Just as you have Barbie dolls with skewed proportions giving off false impressions of what a girl should look like, do you have WWE wrestling action figures with proportions and muscles no human male could ever hope to reach in their lifetimes.

And just as you have tons of guys watching porn every day, do you have tons and tons of girls who are willing to show up in it.

Both genders are working towards the objectification of both genders. It's fucked up, but it's true.

I personally don't draw girls in skimpy outfits, and if an employer requested I draw one I'd have to decline. I'm married and that's never been my thing.


Concerning your situation, though. As others have said, choose your battles. You should never go to school and expect all of your projects to be ones you will enjoy, or ones that will make sense to you. It's a somewhat childish mentality to feel like you have to answer every "challenge" and turn it into some kind of battle.

Draw what you want for yourself, draw what they want for the class. You may think your teacher's an idiot for her mentality. But you're the one who paid for it. (Well, I assume. This is college, right?)

Not to mention...all you're fighting for is a picture of a girl in a somewhat suggestive pose and a bit of a revealing outfit. Sorry to say, but that's been done before. A lot. Every day. What are you fighting for again? The teacher's views only extend as far as her reach, with obviously isn't very far given the imagery in society these days. Sure you could turn it into a battle, but in the grand scheme of things you've already won. And you won't feel like you "won" one way or the other. Might as well make it easy on yourself and pass the class.

[Noah Bradley]

So paint a boat.

[gredgie]

Teachers are hilarious sometimes.

If us males choked the weasel every time we saw an image of a woman that was slightly cold... we'd cause ourselves some injury.

She's there to teach you art though, not feminist morals. It's cool for her to have the opinion, it's not cool for her to oppress a student's education because of it.

[Dusty]

Get your grades. You can always rub her nose in it later if you make it big time.

This was sort of my point.
It's high school....it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of your life, but if you fail out of it, it can certainly complicate the present like having to redo an assignment or fail a class and miss a credit needed for graduation, etc.

It's all well and good to put someone in their place, but there's also a time and place for everything. It just sounds like not a big deal to me...so your art teacher doesn't like pin-ups. What else is new? If you want to really put her in your place, do some nude life drawing of both males and females. I doubt she'd have much to say about that.

[Straight Edge Ryan]

when she calls you sexist just be like "opinion noted" and when she goes "it's NOT an opinion it's FACT" be like "arrogance noted" and when she gets mad be like "tantrum noted"

[Jacob Kobryn]

Paint a naked version of it instead... Oh, ignorant conservatives make may day. Hilarious stuff.

[aesir]

Draw a picture of your teacher having sex with a boat.

[Straight Edge Ryan]

BETTER IDEA: Draw the boat. But you know what you should put on the boat?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fw7iF68JR8k/RtT-qttRunI/AAAAAAAAFb8/eLt5KsG0PSA/s400/Gay-parade-1998-002.jpg

[arttorney]

I'd get the grade, and then after I graduated I'd do a version of the Mona Lisa shooting high beams, sign the back of it, and send it to her as a gift.

[MidgardSerpent]

Well, I don't want to pick sides but I tend to get the feeling when I see someone posting online about some problem with a teacher that we generally hear a very colored version of the truth.

I mean, was there a specific assigment? Copying an existing piece of work seems more like something you do in your own time unless, of course, the assigment was specifically about doing a mastercopy.

[Raoul Duke]

Ouch! I would say "know when to pick your battles" But your teacher is an asshole and must be stopped. Talk about it with the higher ups. Your ignorant teacher isn't just impugning your integrity, but a movement you are involved in. You should not fail a class for expressing your views on any account. Even if you were a sexist which isn't the case, you should be allowed to express that. It's not like your designing the school poster.

Most of Picasso's paintings of women were severely derogatory, cold and misogynistic. That kind of honesty is what made him so cool.

edit: I forgot you were in high school and are not eligible for free speach. The first amendment doesn't apply to you yet.

[emily g]

edit: I forgot you were in high school and are not eligible for free speach. The first amendment doesn't apply to you yet.
That is not true. The courts have upheld the free speech rights of students many times.

For example, teacher gives an art assignment to "paint your favorite subject." Student paints a picture of Jesus. Teacher says that's not allowed. Student's parents sue and student wins.

I wouldn't fight this one though. It's not worth the hassle.

[sanya]

http://scienceblogs.com/isisthescientist/upload/2009/07/go_help_ethan_raise_money_hes/fabio.jpg

Ask her if you can paint this ;)


Seconded. Seriously.

On an aside though, I think your feelings have been hurt here and you're looking for sympathy, and you know what? That's totally okay: I probably would to in your position. And hey; no one wants to feel attacked like that. But its up to you to rise above that and be creative beyond belief. What's that famous saying? Oh right-- "success is the sweetest revenge."

[OmenSpirits]

In my second year of college
I took a intro to sociology class.

We're (the class and he) are having a discussion on something (memory slips) and I ask him a gray question to his black & white situation he purposed.

This is what he told me, and I remember it to this day:

"I'm the teacher and have a degree and you don't!"

In front of the class mind you.

That for me set the tone of the class. I never asked another question.

[DeadlyFreeze]

Its almost like teachers are human.

[Flake]

You are a sexist pig and I spit upon you.

Seriously, if it's high school and a pretty boat will get you a good grade, paint a pretty, pretty boat, paint the prettiest boat the world has ever seen.

Jump through the hoops, you'll never have to deal with her again.

Edit: I painted nice still lives. They were nice...

[Elwell]

Seriously, if it's high school and a pretty boat will get you a good grade, paint a pretty, pretty boat, paint the prettiest boat the world has ever seen.

Hey, MAAAHN, I can't live by your RULES! You can't put me in a BOX, MAAAAAAHHHHN!

[TASmith]

I'm curious why the work is sexist. You should've asked the teacher to explain further. Is the work itself objectifying the woman, or is the viewer? Must the viewer see her only as a sex object, or is there a choice? Couldn't the viewer wonder about her as a person instead? Sure, she's beautiful, and the outfit is retro-sexy. It's suggestive, but the choice still lies in the viewer. And isn't it possible to both be physically attracted and still regard her as a person? What about knowing the comic she comes from and thinking of her as a character? And, if she's trying to be seductive, is it automatically poor ethics to be seduced? Doesn't that depend on who the viewer is?

I suppose there's a question of artist's intent. But even if an artist were intentionally objectifying a woman, does that necessarily force control from the viewer's mind? Can't you still think of the model as a person? And, isn't the kind of man who objectifies women equally able to objectify ANY image of a woman? Even a Sargent painting? And what about those women who want to be objectified? Look up Armando Huarta on deviantart, and the women who model for him. They know what kind of art he makes and they seem to like it. How many women complain about objectification up until they get to the bedroom with their husband? Who wants to hear from him, "Oh no honey, I'm not attracted to you at all, physically. I only love you for your mind?"

You could've used this opportunity to teach your teacher.

[Ilaekae]

Look...quit yer bellyachin'! Your teacher says draw a boat, draw a goddam boat! Here's some ref to get you started...

[s.ketch]

To raise your enthusiasm about boats:

o8T095mFdW8
R7yfISlGLNU

[karma militia]

Plenty of good suggestions here.

You might want to argue with your teacher that the image doesn't objectify women, it's the viewer of the image who projects their preconceptions onto it.

Anyway, Sally Jupiter's character (in the comic) is supposed to be a vehicle for discussion of objectification/sexism/feminism in the 40's compared to today. The comic itself remains objective, and neither supports or condemns the issues. The artwork could be said to do the same.

[Shybird]

Yeah also thinking we aren't getting the full story here. But I just wanted to add this Daria clip
8LlUn7UbFl4#t=0m50s

[Kamber Parrk]

Me?

If I had the choice between a boat and a 40's pin up chick, I'd much rather draw a road-killed raccoon that I dislodged from a frozen Pacific Northwest road with my big ol' steel toed boots. . .

I mean, what the hell was the main focus of the assignment anyway?

[Anid Maro]

Hey, MAAAHN, I can't live by your RULES! You can't put me in a BOX, MAAAAAAHHHHN!

I ain't a part of your system, maaaaaahhhhhn!

FIOkQdQDZTI

[TASmith]

Daria was so much better before she had her own show.

[jakobweiq]

its how school works..

ur value is not dependable on how GOOD is ur skills, but ur attitude.

[karma militia]

I ain't a part of your system, maaaaaahhhhhn!

FIOkQdQDZTI

I think that song goes over my head. I spent the duration of it trying to figure out how it might be funny.

Although, now i reeeeeally want a porcelain fountain.

In other news, daria (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLQzpCqTnvo&feature=PlayList&p=EECDD6BB19951A2D&index=0) is great.

[Lhune]

Hah, that's like my "art teacher" in highschool telling me to stop drawing realistic and work abstract, not because it would better benefit my development but simply because he draws abstract himself, it's more appealing to him and easier to grade I guess. Teachers who let their personal taste play a big part in judging their students are a pain in the hole, but let's face it, you need them. You need your grades. So, I started drawing "abstract" and my grades skyrocketed, not because my art got better but because I drew the stuff he liked.

If she wants you to paint a boat, paint a boat. As sad as her opinion is, you can argue your arse off but I doubt it'll get you far, not to mention it'll keep you from doing your other schoolwork more than necessary. You can always still rub it in her face later.

[karma militia]

You might want to argue with your teacher that the image doesn't objectify women, it's the viewer of the image who projects their preconceptions onto it.


I thought of a way to allow you to paint your chosen subject matter, while appeasing your teacher, also making a point of subjectivity vs objectivity in the context of socio-political posturing.

basically, paint the picture, but underneath write "ceci n'est pas une femme". (although, you might want to find the correct translation)

...Its a reference to a famous peice of art...
http://www.artinthepicture.com/artists/Rene_Magritte/pipe.jpeg

The translation is "This is not a pipe"... Inferring that it is merely a painting of a pipe.

[Hyskoa]

Just paint a picture of the teacher furiously masturbating to a photograph of a famous feminist.
Tell her it's about empowerment.

Then refer her to this thread so she can read she's not worthy of being a teacher and instead should find a future in digging ditches or splitting rocks, as it'd be perfect for her level of intellect.

[Ryan K]

Just paint a picture of the teacher furiously masturbating to a photograph of a famous feminist.
Tell her it's about empowerment.


^ THIS! ^ (but do it right after grades are put it...if ya want.)

[Rist]

You are so ask for a more sensible subject, such as painting a boat.

[Dirty C]

If he takes it up with higher-ups, almost definitely it'll be into a disciplinary situation, and that'll come down to a basic question: do we allow portrayal of nudity in high school? Answer: No, every single god damn time. The teacher will be lionized and he will get in shit for trying to take a teacher down.

Paint the boat. I totally agree that self expression is necessary, but this isn't quite that. The way you become a better artist is by working more, not by working only on what you want. Primarily high school for the artist is something to be endured. Don't underestimate the value of getting decent grades, it gives you the opportunity to do what you want later on. College is a much better place for this sort of exploration.

Remember that this is the Internet, and if you ask a bunch of like-minded people what they think, you'll get an awful lot of "Fuck yeah!" from the chorus.

When I was in high school I had to put up with a design teacher who literally hated orange. All of it, the entire colour family. Didn't matter how appropriate it was. I admit that she's one of the big reasons I have a degree in genetics and not art, but I didn't have a community like this one to rely on. So you've already got a major step up there.

Good luck with it.

[karma militia]

If he takes it up with higher-ups, almost definitely it'll be into a disciplinary situation, and that'll come down to a basic question: do we allow portrayal of nudity in high school? Answer: No, every single god damn time. The teacher will be lionized and he will get in shit for trying to take a teacher down.

Paint the boat. I totally agree that self expression is necessary, but this isn't quite that. The way you become a better artist is by working more, not by working only on what you want. Primarily high school for the artist is something to be endured. Don't underestimate the value of getting decent grades, it gives you the opportunity to do what you want later on. College is a much better place for this sort of exploration.

Remember that this is the Internet, and if you ask a bunch of like-minded people what they think, you'll get an awful lot of "Fuck yeah!" from the chorus.

When I was in high school I had to put up with a design teacher who literally hated orange. All of it, the entire colour family. Didn't matter how appropriate it was. I admit that she's one of the big reasons I have a degree in genetics and not art, but I didn't have a community like this one to rely on. So you've already got a major step up there.

Good luck with it.

When i was in highschool, for my final (2 semester) project, i started making a video montage of horrible real world atrocities, to the tune of this...
MhKe-Z-NhBs
...As you might imagine, by the end shit was getting pretty fucking graphic (snuff mixed in with nuclear explosions).

Anyway, these works were supposed to be in an open exhibition, and this was a private school where image was everything. I never finished this piece and still got a B+.

Not the first/last time i used the schools preoccupation of image as a bartering tool.

[jcpahl]

If he takes it up with higher-ups, almost definitely it'll be into a disciplinary situation, and that'll come down to a basic question: do we allow portrayal of nudity in high school? Answer: No, every single god damn time.

The woman in the picture isn't nude, though. This feminazi is enforcing her weirdo political agenda, not a basic disciplinary situation.

[Armonah]

What I got from your post was basically "The teacher will fail me if I don't do the assignment like she wants me to!"
Heaven forbid! You have to make assignments for your teachers? In school? For grades?! Saying you don't want to do her assignments is like saying "My boss is going to fire me if I don't do the work he told me to do!" And then you're making a huge deal out of it because apparently doing what your teacher/boss is telling you to do feels like "running away from a battle".

Set your ego aside and do the damn assignment already. You can paint pin-ups all you want in your spare time.

[nauvice]

What I got from your post was basically "The teacher will fail me if I don't do the assignment like she wants me to!"
Heaven forbid! You have to make assignments for your teachers? In school? For grades?! Saying you don't want to do her assignments is like saying "My boss is going to fire me if I don't do the work he told me to do!" And then you're making a huge deal out of it because apparently doing what your teacher/boss is telling you to do feels like "running away from a battle".

Set your ego aside and do the damn assignment already. You can paint pin-ups all you want in your spare time.

then you read it wrong. He's doing what the teacher wants him to do, but based on her own bias, she tells him what he cannot do and should draw instead. No it wouldnt be like your Boss giving orders, it would be like your sub-manager at a retail store telling you to not serve old people, because she personally doesn't like them

[Black Spot]

then you read it wrong. He's doing what the teacher wants him to do, but based on her own bias, she tells him what he cannot do and should draw instead. No it wouldnt be like your Boss giving orders, it would be like your sub-manager at a retail store telling you to not serve old people, because she personally doesn't like them

Twaddle. And where did you get the idea the OP was male as there's no sex stated?

[Armonah]

then you read it wrong. He's doing what the teacher wants him to do, but based on her own bias, she tells him what he cannot do and should draw instead. No it wouldnt be like your Boss giving orders, it would be like your sub-manager at a retail store telling you to not serve old people, because she personally doesn't like them
No, it's exactly like your boss giving you orders. And either way fact remains, if you want to keep your job, you listen to your superiors. It's what you get paid (or in this case graded) for.

I'm not even saying I'm picking the teacher's side here or that I agree with her on objectification of women. But if he wants to vent about it on an online forum, that's great. He got his dose of sympathy and some of the replies here were very witty, especially that of Ilaekae. But going all rebel-without-a-cause on her is just pointless. It's not going to change anything but get him a bad grade.

[Anid Maro]

Twaddle. And where did you get the idea the OP was male as there's no sex stated?

Because you can't have interest in anything even mildly sexual unless you are also a man.

Like... duh.

[nauvice]

Twaddle. And where did you get the idea the OP was male as there's no sex stated?

Simply reading his signature? "I'm the guy that does his job! You must be the other guy!" But that could be a quote and I could be wrong. Don't see how assuming a person's sex has to do with anything. whether its a he or she, their teacher is wrong.

No, it's exactly like your boss giving you orders. And either way fact remains, if you want to keep your job, you listen to your superiors. It's what you get paid (or in this case graded) for.

I'm not even saying I'm picking the teacher's side here or that I agree with her on objectification of women. But if he wants to vent about it on an online forum, that's great. He got his dose of sympathy and some of the replies here were very witty, especially that of Ilaekae. But going all rebel-without-a-cause on her is just pointless. It's not going to change anything but get him a bad grade.

John Lasseter opposed his boss's orders, and now he's arguably a legend. And all this student has to do is complain to the higher ups, like others suggested. I don't really see the teacher as a boss, this is not a University, its high school, they have to follow a curriculum and put their bias aside. or if it were me, and I've done it before, I'd keep my pride and take the F. Letting this fly by just because its "only high school", is a scary thought. Maybe Lasseter should have just let his strong dreams for 3D animation "fly by" just because of his small position at the time at Disney, and bosses are always right and should be feared...

sorry but that is unacceptable. There are a lot of Bad dogmatic teachers in High schools who let their opinions crush their students' spirit. If this person likes to draw women in suggestive ways, let them be.

[Armonah]

Simply reading his signature? "I'm the guy that does his job! You must be the other guy!" But that could be a quote and I could be wrong. Don't see how assuming a person's sex has to do with anything. whether its a he or she, their teacher is wrong.



John Lasseter opposed his boss's orders, and now he's arguably a legend. And all this student has to do is complain to the higher ups, like others suggested. I don't really see the teacher as a boss, this is not a University, its high school, they have to follow a curriculum and put their bias aside. or if it were me, and I've done it before, I'd keep my pride and take the F. Letting this fly by just because its "only high school", is a scary thought. Maybe Lasseter should have just let his strong dreams for 3D animation "fly by" just because of his small position at the time at Disney, and bosses are always right and should be feared...

sorry but that is unacceptable. There are a lot of Bad dogmatic teachers in High schools who let their opinions crush their students' spirit. If this person likes to draw women in suggestive ways, let them be.
Exceptions do not make the rule.

[Chris Bennett]

Trouble is, if you paint the boat you will be accused of being maritimist.

[karma militia]

Twaddle. And where did you get the idea the OP was male as there's no sex stated?

Wow, that's pretty trivial. Especially in a topic about sexism. Oh wait, were you being (intentionally) Ironic?

But going all rebel-without-a-cause on her is just pointless.

Well... That might be true if there was no cause (cause = what everyone in this thread has been talking about). Maybe you're confusing 'cause' with 'effect'.

That wasn't my best argument, but it was my least offensive. Did i do good?

[Armonah]

Well... That might be true if there was no cause (cause = what everyone in this thread has been talking about). Maybe you're confusing 'cause' with 'effect'.

That wasn't my best argument, but it was my least offensive. Did i do good?
Yes. http://e.deviantart.net/emoticons/b/bucktooth.gif
And you're right, effect is a more fitting word here.

[nauvice]

OP, ever read Y: The Last man? Its a graphic novel about a plague that annihilated the Y chromosome. All Male species are dead, except for one Man and his pet monkey, in a world full of only women.

Well, in that comic, there's a group of women who call themselves Amazons, and they are blind (figurative) extreme feminists who suppress any other women who don't hate men. I don't know the whole story between you and your teacher, but she seems like she would fit well into that gang. Anyway the whole comic talks about the history and portrayal of women in mainly US and some other international societies. It's really well written and informative... and the author is a dude.

Those kind of art are not to insult women. There's nothing demeaning about a woman empowering her sexuality. And there are men who understand that, and they can convey that message in their art. But many feminists think, if the sexual art is done by a man and not a woman, then its only meaning is perversion. I don't think those paintings are sexist, and your teacher is not fit to teach art, since she obviously doesn't really know its history that well.

i think before going to higher ups, or just drawing the boat like she tells you to, you should have a talk with her, tell her to do her research (or do it for her and present it to her), because she's obviously mislead.

[Liquidpope]

Nevermind, someone beat me to it...

[karma militia]

Here is a song which objectifies a women...

yCOhoIqjB4w

Tell your teacher to grow up.

[JeffX99]

Best thread in a long time. I laughed, I cried...I would take the F in a heartbeat. Have your teacher call me...better yet, I'll use my frequent flyer miles and set up an apointment with him/her. What time works best?

Seriously though...ask them what the great museums of the world are full of? Ask them if they've heard of the Athena Nike? Ask them if they've heard of the Venus of Willendorf - or the other 40,000 female idols unearthed. Ask them when they last got got laid.

As I said - take the F - frame it.

[bcarman]

First off, to whomever inferred that those who teach can't in this thread; I'll put my portfolio up against yours any day of the week. I teach and have had to deal with my share of bad colleagues. The thing is when you are in school I believe it is your responsibility to learn whatever you can from whomever is available. You don't always have to agree with what a teacher is saying but take it under consideration and go research for yourself trying to understand why this person is saying what they are saying. To just say, hell with her I'll take an F is close-minded and ridiculous. Maybe have a conversation and state your views intelligently. If you are still butting up against a wall give her view a shot like others here have said and move on. She can only assign things to you in her class, that's only a moment in the timeline of your education.

[karma militia]

First off, to whomever inferred that those who teach can't in this thread; I'll put my portfolio up against yours any day of the week. I teach and have had to deal with my share of bad colleagues. The thing is when you are in school I believe it is your responsibility to learn whatever you can from whomever is available. You don't always have to agree with what a teacher is saying but take it under consideration and go research for yourself trying to understand why this person is saying what they are saying. To just say, hell with her I'll take an F is close-minded and ridiculous. Maybe have a conversation and state your views intelligently. If you are still butting up against a wall give her view a shot like others here have said and move on. She can only assign things to you in her class, that's only a moment in the timeline of your education.

Riiiight.

Art is about expressing your unique perspective. The moment you compromise that for grades, to fit in with the status quo, you are essentially whoring yourself. EG. you are objectifying yourself.

I would grab the F proudly.

Grades don't get you art jobs... skill and originality do.

[JeffX99]

First - I teach as well - and will happily put my portfolio and twenty years professional experience up against yours - any day of the week. Will also happily go out and paint with you - or anyone else. I don't think I heard anyone infer good teachers can't teach. I believe when you are in school, or when you are in life, you stand up for yourself. I completely agree that this is only a moment in the timeline of one's journey - but some battles should not be walked away from - this is just my feeling.

I also totally agree with you about doing your own research and investigation into this mindset. I also agree that sitting down and having an intelligent conversation about the topic, stating your views would be the best approach. It sounds like a discussion was already had and there was one point of view that lacked intelligence - a point of view not based on artistic sensibilites but personal bias.

As far as my opinion and feelings being close-minded and ridiculous? Happy to use my frequent flyer miles and meet with you as well.

[bcarman]

"become a successful artist and leave her to teach... I think there is a saying about teachers that fits in well here..."

Actually this is the quote I was referring to about teaching and doing. I'm not sure how to use the quote thing on this site. I wasn't throwing down the gauntlet, just saying how much I hate the saying about those who do do those who can't teach. Not trying to compete against you JeffX99. I'm also not sure why you took the closed-minded thing so personally, although I would welcome a conversation if you flew out. It is difficult to discuss things intelligently without both sides of the story. In my twenty years of teaching I have run across a lot of students who have uninformed opinions. Then they have a teacher who asks something of them which they don't agree with or simply don't like. They bring their side of an argument to a forum like this with a whole slew of like-minded thinkers who give no validity to the other side of the story. Now like I said in my previous post I have run across a lot of colleagues who are close-minded and narrow thinking while professing open-mindedness and inclusiveness. In fact over the years I can honestly say that I would rather spend time with students in the classroom than with other faculty. But I think that maybe teachers will ask students to step outside of a comfort zone and approach a project with an unfamiliar point of view. Don't know if that is what happened here or not but I was just bringing up the what if factor. And as far as grades not getting you art jobs, I'm not sure that was ever part of the discussion. Grades are a stupid necessity but this is about gathering and investigating other points of view when one is in school. I don't think that can hurt anyone.

http://billcarman.blogspot.com

[Mute]

This thread was fun until it got to the second page.

It's true, the art teacher in question is being obtuse, but there are many better uses of a young artists time and energy than making an enemy out of their high school art teacher.

[karma militia]

"become a successful artist and leave her to teach...

To be honest, that kind of pissed me off two, but i managed to ignore it... for a little while.

Teachers will have a greater impact on the future, and lead a more forfilling life than the vast majority of artists.

[karma militia]

This thread was fun until it got to the second page.

It's true, the art teacher in question is being obtuse, but there are many better uses of a young artists time and energy than making an enemy out of their high school art teacher.

Some people respond positively to a challenge.

Sorry if the reality of the situation ruined your fun ;)


*challenge*

[JeffX99]

All is well - I am actually in complete agreement on one hand and understand the "student rebellion without a cause" issue quite well, from both sides - I get a kick out of it frankly.

I took the close-minded/ridiculous comment personally for three reasons: 1) it was directed toward my comment in a personal way in an otherwise abstract discussion of principles; 2) I've worked very hard for thirty years to be as open-minded and aware as I can be as an artist and person; 3) in this situation (granted it is highly removed and from one pov) it sounds a great deal like the person in authority, who should be leading and opening insight is the one with the closed mind. I'm sure we have far more in common than difference and maybe we will get to meet someday.

OK, deep breath, I think this is a very interesting thread because though it seems like a trivial assignment, it really gets to the core of major issues of oppression, expression, awareness, etc. I realize that sounds blown out of proportion but I think if it were not the case this thread would have nowhere near this level of activity - so it clearly touches us deeply. It has been fascinating to see which side people sort of come down on - I think many of us are quite passionate about issues like this and we just react in different ways - and all are legitimate.

Funny...The Who just came on...Won't get fooled again! An anthem for this issue if ever there was!

[nauvice]

fitting quote

[bcarman]

That's a great quote zwarrior. Now the only question is who is thinking alike and who is thinking differently. That seems to be the eternal argument.

[Crane]

I think the real question here is: Am I a bad person because I used to draw porn as a kid?

[LORD M]

I think the real question here is: Am I a bad person because I used to draw porn as a kid?

Depends on who you're asking. So many different views everyone have, but the most important one imo is your own view on it. ;)

[Crane]

Depends on who you're asking. So many different views everyone have, but the most important one imo is your own view on it.

^^ This.

I tend to stay outta stuff like this because in a few years it'll just be a funny story, its not like this will affect you in any serious way, its not your problem if your teacher wants to go around judging others based on something trivial, unless she threatens to ram a chainsaw up your ass, just do the boat, and go home and do fifty pages of pinups to make up for it, whats gonna benefit you more? paint the boat, get the diploma, do fifty pages of pinups, get the experience, its a win win dude, no need to make mountains out of molehills hu. :D

[nauvice]

That's a great quote zwarrior. Now the only question is who is thinking alike and who is thinking differently. That seems to be the eternal argument.

Well the teacher seems to confuse what's offensive and degrading to all women, with what's offensive to her own ego. Not all women thinks its demeaning. but since she's the authority, she's patronizing her way of thinking on her student, because they think differently.

Its like in this thread, there are two sides with different opinions on the matter. But if one side was the teacher, and the other, a student. The teacher side would decide to fail the student for not complying to their opinion, as opposed to giving them an A if they think alike.

Its just High school, but it leaves a lasting message, that the way to succeed in life is to do what the boss tells ya', and you are wrong for being a different thinker.

[Ilaekae]

Let's put this in perspective...

IF you DON'T do the assignment as your teacher requested, 9,734,856 mainland Chinese will be forced to eat Quarter Pounders for the rest of their lives, the IPod will accept only Tony Bennet and Japanese anime theme songs sung by 12-year-old girl groups, and the sun will go out.

IF you DO do the assignment as she requested, Sarah Palin will marry the Dali Lama, world-wide climate change will speed up by a factor of ten, and Massive Black will be bought by Disney to produce updated Hanna-Barbera cartoons in 3d.

So, with so much riding on your situation involving a badly derivative retro piece of second rate cheesecake, don't just rush into making a decision here...

[arttorney]

bcarman- you can copy the language you want to quote on your clipboard and then paste it into your post between these two bracket sets: (except make the words "QUOTE" be allcaps and spell them correctly).

To the original poster: I agree that people have no business telling you what art to make. To clarify my earlier post, that teacher can't quell your spirit if you don't let her; but she can fail you (which is a different thing than quelling your spirit). This is why I recommended you get the grade, and graduate, then and only then play with her mind if you need to. After you are out of high school you can paint that teacher in a Sally Jupiter outfit and she can't do a damn thing about it. Until then she can. That is why some of us talk about picking your battles.

[Amber Alexander]

To start off, I am female btw and in high school our art assignments were pretty open. For one of my assignments I drew a master copy of a nude Marilyn Monroe photograph as well as a very skimpy Aeon Flux. The Flux was put in the school art show.

This is how I would approach it. Discuss it with your parents, hopefully if they are ok with you doing the pin up then let them take the issue to the principle. Having them do it will give more weight. Perhaps type up a statement explaining why you want to do that piece of art and what exactly the teacher said to you.

Also try to find out specifics..such as how is grading supposed to be done in the class? Assuming this is high school, you should have lots of assignments, not 1. Your grade should be based on everything you did on the class, if your grade was decent before this project, getting an F on 1 project, should not fail you for the entire class. If the teacher is changing her grading standards for only you, that is completely unfair and should be challenged.

[JeffX99]

Let's put this in perspective...

IF you DON'T do the assignment as your teacher requested, 9,734,856 mainland Chinese will be forced to eat Quarter Pounders for the rest of their lives, the IPod will accept only Tony Bennet and Japanese anime theme songs sung by 12-year-old girl groups, and the sun will go out.

IF you DO do the assignment as she requested, Sarah Palin will marry the Dali Lama, world-wide climate change will speed up by a factor of ten, and Massive Black will be bought by Disney to produce updated Hanna-Barbera cartoons in 3d.

So, with so much riding on your situation involving a badly derivative retro piece of second rate cheesecake, don't just rush into making a decision here...

LOL - what a dilemna!

And Anid - whew - that was a close one man! 'Cause I'm guilty as charged! :yum:

[algenpfleger]

9,734,856 mainland Chinese will be forced to eat Quarter Pounders for the rest of their lives.

Man they got the metric system, they don't even know what the fuck a quarter pounder is!


And... do you know what they put on their french fries instead of ketchup?

[FraserMcT]

Man they got the metric system, they don't even know what the fuck a quarter pounder is!


And... do you know what they put on their french fries instead of ketchup?
Mayonnaise.
905874
I've seen them do it man, they fuckin' drown them in that shit.

[Roboko]

Not doing things her way is silly, I'm speaking from experience. Long story short I didn't like a poem about Vietnam. Being stubborn and and stupid I stuck with my opinions of the poem, even whilst being accused of racism/insolence. The right thing that I should have done was apologize, explain the misunderstanding (I was in fact very sympathetic towards the Vietnamese, I just didn't like the poem) and rewrite the damn essay. But in an act of defiance I refused to and ended up scraping a pass in English Literature after being put in foundation by the teacher.

Now I either have to redo the entire gcse or not be able to apply to some of the schools I want to go to. So just draw the damn boat.

[Hookswords]

When I was in high school we had an assignment where we were given three words on note cards and told to make a piece using these three words. Mine were "Childhood", "Sharp", and "Dirty". So, I went to a plumber in town and got a used toilet that was marked for garbage, some nails and screws from the hardware store, and some dolls from a second hand store. I plugged the toilet so it could hold "water" again and got some of that stuff that model railroaders use for water. Some kind of resin that hardens. I coated the toilet in linseed that was filthy with burnt umber and coated the toilet to make it look like the filthiest toilet in Scotland. I took the baby dolls I bought and burned them, cut their hair weird, drove the nails and screws into them, and carved out their eyes. The dolls went in the toilet and then I added the resin so it looked like they were floating in the toilet water. I had no message behind the piece, no motivations. I just went with the first thing I came up with for those three words together. It was in our school art show... for about two hours. I was told that I had to take it out because it was offensive and it was making people upset. Something about abortions or something to that effect. Now, I'm not saying that the piece I put together wasnt creepy, but you cant observe something without changing it. People put their own context on things, and it seems my piece jarred some thoughts in people that they couldnt handle.

My high school art teacher was the best. I still talk to him regularly. He runs a open figure drawing night art the college I work at. We do art, get beers, talk, etc. When he was my teacher we fought endlessly. He and I would scream at each other in my studio space. He would suggest something I didnt like and we would go at it. Even if I knew he was right we'd fight. Whenever I caved and did what he told me it made my piece 5 times better. As it ended up the teacher trying to teach me taught me something when I listened. He even taught me something when I didnt listen.

There is an argument to both sides of your story that may run deeper than you are currently able to comprehend. In any case, dont loose site of the real concerns

Good luck

[nauvice]

French fies with mayo is delicious

[karma militia]

For some reason this song reaaally pisses me off.
aNopQq5lWqQ

Maybe it is the brainless oversimplification. Maybe it is the apathy mixed with with an emotional melody.

I can't figure it out, but when i listen to it, it feels like there is something on my back which is really annoying, but i cant swat it off because it's right where i can't reach.

ARRRGH!

[Elwell]

For some reason this song reaaally pisses me off.
aNopQq5lWqQ

Maybe it is the brainless oversimplification. Maybe it is the apathy mixed with with an emotional melody.

I can't figure it out, but when i listen to it, it feels like there is something on my back which is really annoying, but i cant swat it off because it's right where i can't reach.

ARRRGH!
It's ironic that you can accuse that song of apathy, considering it was written by one of the most socially and politically aware songwriters ever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_turn_turn) (although I agree that the source material is morally suspect).

[Riley Stark]

Well the teacher seems to confuse what's offensive and degrading to all women, with what's offensive to her own ego. Not all women thinks its demeaning. but since she's the authority, she's patronizing her way of thinking on her student, because they think differently.


As a woman I don't find it demeaning at all.

Pin up is just a style that is popular - It's not any more offensive than any other fantasy-style, idealized art is. I think this has more to do with your teacher's own issues than anything else. I do find it amusing that a woman is so threatened by fantasy figures. Because that's all they are - fantasy. (Is she fat/frumpy and taking it personal because she can never live up to the idealized version of the female figure? LOL)

In all seriousness, just because a style isn't your cup of tea, that doesn't make it offensive. It's like nude figure studies -- some people get up in arms because the subject has no clothes on, but what they don't grasp is that the purpose of the study isn't about nudity or even sexual. Just like drawing a pin up style doesn't mean that's how you necessarily 'view' women.

I find it surprising that someone with such a limited view is teaching a subject where there really are no limits.

I do think you should talk to someone about this, so that they're at least aware of her behavior. Not in an "I'm going to try to get her in trouble" way -- More of an "I'm having a problem understanding why this is an issue" sort of way. So that you don't put anyone on the offensive. (Because then she might just hassle you even more on principal if you get her in trouble.) If you approach it from a personal stand point and are pleasant, you may get better results.

In the meantime, I'd just draw the boat to shut her up. No sense risking your grade to make a point without knowing if you'd win the battle or not. If you mention it to someone (like the principal or such) and you can get them to back you up, then I'd try to stand my ground. If you can't get backup, then you at least know where you stand and you can laugh at their idiocy on the inside as you draw whatever ridiculous object they decide is "appropriate" and get a good grade.

You'll have the last laugh in the end when you become successful. (Especially if you wind up getting paid to draw pin ups and make more than your teacher who is stuck drawing boats.)

[La Ligne Noire]

I failed my year trying to battle something in the likes of that. :(

[Black Spot]

I appear to have imbibed too much last night (blame Wales winning in the final seconds), so I'm sorry.

[kev ferrara]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2480/3533682033_85bc395ec0.jpg

[karma militia]

It's ironic that you can accuse that song of apathy, considering it was written by one of the most socially and politically aware songwriters ever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_turn_turn) (although I agree that the source material is morally suspect).

Oops, seems i posted this in the wrong thread. It was meant for the "What pissed you off today?" thread. Freudian post?

(I blame alcohol.)

The reason that song frustrates me, is because i can't figure out why i don't like it. Analyzing it, i know i should like it, it has everything i like in a song. But it just sounds really insincere to me. As if it is slightly off-key in its intentions. If i could pin down a reasonable reason not to like it, it wouldn't bother me at all.

[karma militia]

For the sake of clarity, this song has everything that byrds song lacks.

I'm tempted to call it "honesty and trust" but that would just be further oversimplification.

d3UB5Fr80SM

(sorry about the irrelevant posts, but i feel pretty strongly about this stuff)

[Elwell]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2480/3533682033_85bc395ec0.jpg

He was a gaaaaay clipper
One-way ticket yeah
It took me sooooo long
To find out
And I found out

[Wooly ESS]

That's a great quote zwarrior. Now the only question is who is thinking alike and who is thinking differently. That seems to be the eternal argument.

The truth in this statement is a measure of the degree of free speech we enjoy. Throughout most of history, speaking outside of societal norms usually resulted in severe repression, including hideous death. Today, we can't even decide what societal norms are.

I can't believe a gripe about a high school teacher has run to four pages!

[karma militia]

He was a gaaaaay clipper
One-way ticket yeah
It took me sooooo long
To find out
And I found out

...what?

[karma militia]

I can't believe a gripe about a high school teacher has run to four pages!

Welcome to the internets. :)

[Elwell]

...what?
Check Kev's link.

[alesoun]

It's High School. They probably have regulations against pin-ups being painted. Jeez! From what I hear, you can't walk past a nude in an art gallery in High School in the US.

If you don't want to paint the damn boat, paint the Boat of the Damned!

[Wooly ESS]

I'm not surprised. I can't walk past a nude in an art gallery either!

Or should I say, I find it hard to walk past a nude in an art gallery. Hork, hork, hork!

[Ilaekae]

Hell, I find it hard to walk past a nude ANYWHERE, and if it's female, I'll even stop and stare for hours or take pictures...

[Hexism]

i'd just draw both and submit the boat

less drama more art

your teacher sounds like a bitch though

[Falchion]

You should paint a boat. Consider the fairly new USS New York.

[blueknightfox]

She's not keeping you from doing the study, she's just keeping you from doing it for her class. I'm guessing that as a pro you'll eventually run into clients who have different ideas than you do on projects. I'd draw the boat and not take her classes in the future.
I could do it for extra credit in class.

[Kraus]

Listen to me straight kiddo, i don't want you to get an impression that she's a bad teacher by calling her a c%$t. Her teaching ability has nothing to do with her being a shitty human.
Do concider her a shitty human, for she and her kind will allways be out of line, bringing personal bagage into everything and using their authority to impose that personal bagage upon you. Such lowly trait shows these people are a buncha peasants. They can be cops, politicians and even in your case, teachers... They however are not meant to handle positions of authority and protocol, they are biased and compromised and you should be allways weary of them. And no, it's not about misinterpretation or her side of the story. There is no story here, you know exactly what she did there.

You however need to adopt the noble mentality of understanding and accepting their flawed thought process. By being able to hipotheticaly put yourself in their shoes it will diffuse the angst and help with a clear-headed perspective on how to interact with and manipulate them into what you want to happen.
Especially when they are in a position of authority and they use it like some fat kid doing the windmill with his arms because he can't fight and knowing that it will protect him but he has no idea it won't protect him for long.
By that analogy, you will still eventually beat the shit out of that fat kid, but wouldn't it be sweet if you had hands on his lunchmoney without him even bothering to defend himself?

I have a feeling that she got the best of you right there on that moment, and your initial reaction to her messed up any chance of smooth pimpin, so now she needs to be somehow punished for her insolence regardless.. But next time there is allways a room for cunning.

[karma militia]

Do concider her a shitty human,

And it is my considered opinion that you might be jumping to conclusions/stereotypes.

Maybe we could get the teacher to sign up and specify her perspective. It should be a learning experience for all involved.

[carlosranna]

I won´t read the whole thread, just the first page. But i´ll give an opinnion.

Paint what she wants and paint what you want. You´ll be practicing more this way.

Now get outta the internet and go paint!

[bcarman]

Do concider her a shitty human,


Wow, not sure how you can say that about someone knowing them so little.

[Elwell]

Wow, not sure how you can say that about someone knowing them so little.
Kraus speaks from a position of absolute authority on all subjects.

[Two Listen]

Kraus speaks from a position of absolute authority on all subjects.

I like this about Kraus. It makes it very easy for those of us not so absolute in our authority to realize we're on a totally different plane of existence, and should simply distance ourselves from it entirely.

On another note - bcarman, thanks a ton for posting your portfolio. It was a real joy to look through! I don't get to see many things like that these days. I would've killed for a teacher like you in school.

[MidgardSerpent]

And no, it's not about misinterpretation or her side of the story. There is no story here, you know exactly what she did there.

Yeah, he might know, but we don't. But maybe you can answer what the actual assigment was and how their whole scene played out, since you apparently have the inside scoop.

I'm not even talking about the whole degradeing women thing, but if the assigment was something akin to ; draw a still life or create something by your own design, then the OP is wrong by default regardless of his teacher's personal philsophies. Not saying that's the case, but it's hard to argue off just a soundbite, and that's pretty much what a lot of people here have been doing.

[squidmonk3j]

wDiUG52ZyHQ

[Kraus]

I'm not even talking about the whole degradeing women thing...

I however am. And i see a direct correlation between that and the enforcement of the boat the way OP wrote it.


The OP can be full of shit purposefully relating her phylosophy with her action to demonise her on a forum full of strangers for all i care.. The point is i reply and argue to what is presented in the thread, not what is the reality of things. Thinking and arguing on a topic is easier when you don't care about factors like credibility or objectivity..

[Heartwielder]

If I was in your position, I would just listen to her
I mean, what's the point of winning of fight with an art teacher if you fail the class?

[term8or]

Paint the damn boat. Get the grade. Pass the class. And then, when the art teacher can't fail you, paint that woman, but change it so it has your art teachers face on it. Show it to everyone in the school.

[NanoBlack]

Paint the damn boat. Get the grade. Pass the class. And then, when the art teacher can't fail you, paint that woman, but change it so it has your art teachers face on it. Show it to everyone in the school.

Hehehe, revenge is a dish best served cold. Doooo it!!!

[thecheesecakeman]

just do it bro its your work lol shes just a troll anyways

[Alexandr Pascenko]

.......... so this is how to buy someones soul ..... force the person to do things it does not want to .... by granting it acceptance somewhere.....
.....just thinking.....

[karma militia]

Seriously, you need to get your teacher on here to defend her perspective.

That might stir up individual thought and an increased level of understanding.

Otherwise we're just shooting fish in a barrel.

(The teacher is the fish, and you are the barrel)

[Ninjerk]

Seriously, you need to get your teacher on here to defend her perspective.

That might stir up individual thought and an increased level of understanding.

Otherwise we're just shooting fish in a barrel.

(The teacher is the fish, and you are the barrel)

So really the teacher is multiple beings INSIDE of you.

[karma militia]

So really the teacher is multiple beings INSIDE of you.

Heh, that works too.

//edit

(for the sake of clarity, i originally meant that the OP is the barrel, containing the fish (teacher). It's a metaphor for the availability of information. But yeah, perhaps we are all our own barrels and the fish are our preconceptions of the teacher.)

[blueknightfox]

Update - Most girls in my class are on my side but what I will do is draw the Damn boat for the grade and The picture for extra credit.

I am suppose to make a Master Copy.

Someone above said somthing about politics. She is a Republican so ahat I should do is draw the Sally Jupiter pic but make her look more like Sarah Palin. She can't do anything about that. right?

[Wooly ESS]

Or maybe our fishy preconceptions are teachers to the barrel.

[vinitezyrs6]

I wanted to paint a mastercopy of the picture of the Sally Jupiter pinup below and when I told my art teacher this she said " That picture and others like it are lowering women to objects for people like you." I tried to compromise, I told that I would hide some "things" but that didn't work. then I told her I was doing it anyway and she said she would fail me and told me to paint a damn boat.

If I do this I fail the class but if I don't I feel like i'm running from a fight. What should I do?

Forget it buddy. Arguing with her to any extent won't work. I am afraid that she is one of those **** (inappropriate word deleted) women! Have had my share of them as well. Just listen to her and move on. Life goes on as usual. :(

[Ninjerk]

Update - Most girls in my class are on my side but what I will do is draw the Damn boat for the grade and The picture for extra credit.

I am suppose to make a Master Copy.

Someone above said somthing about politics. She is a Republican so ahat I should do is draw the Sally Jupiter pic but make her look more like Sarah Palin. She can't do anything about that. right?

I'm afraid I don't know much about Master Copies, but I think you'd get better mileage out of a different painting.

[Ilaekae]

...or for a small fee, I'd be happy to come to your school in a pink ninja outfit and break your leg or something so you miss her class for the assignment...

[Demo]

Ask her if you can do your study over this piece. Come back with her answer then well really be able to tell if she knows whats shes talking about.

911595

[TheShadowyPhantom]

I'd either go with painting Stewie from Family Guy as a commodore on a ship (acting in a homosexual manner from that one episode) or paint the Love Boat and make sure that Isaac is winking and giving a thumbs up.

[John English]

Bluenightfox-

Below is an illustration done by Frank Schoonover, notice it has a boat in it.

Now ask your instructor to give you a demonstration on how it was done!

Then you will find out the value of her class.

John

[George Abraham]

What's the differance between a stark naked woman and a boat? I don't get it.

[Black Spot]

What's the differance between a stark naked woman and a boat? I don't get it.

Sorry, that just cracked me up.

[blueknightfox]

I'm afraid I don't know much about Master Copies, but I think you'd get better mileage out of a different painting.

she told us to do it.
there's a mastercopy thread somewhere on CA.

[blueknightfox]

Ask her if you can do your study over this piece. Come back with her answer then well really be able to tell if she knows whats shes talking about.

911595

Her answer was "Just drop it."

[blueknightfox]

Bluenightfox-

Below is an illustration done by Frank Schoonover, notice it has a boat in it.

Now ask your instructor to give you a demonstration on how it was done!

Then you will find out the value of her class.

John

Her answer was "Maybe later if I can find time."

[blueknightfox]

I told her about this thread.

[JeffX99]

Very cool. Here's the thing...I doubt she would find the Mona Lisa, Athena Nike, Venus DeMilo, etc. degrading to women, right? The pinup you selected is no different, in essence, than those. Certainly it is not "high art" but it is in the same category, just a different degree.

[bcarman]

is there a difference between objectifying and degrading?

[Falchion]

What about drawing like a naked chick on a boat? Or a naked guy?

[Anid Maro]

is there a difference between objectifying and degrading?

Isn't there a difference between sexualizing and objectifying?

[Ariel9]

Honestly, if this woman's a republican and her woman role model is SARAH PALIN, then she really knows nothing about feminism AT ALL and she should think again about what is degrading to a woman.
That piece of art clearly isn't degrading, it's mildly objectifying but really nothing bad. I love it, and I love pin-ups, and I'm woman and a feminist.

Blueknightfox, your teacher sounds very much like my own although I may be mistaken (I haven't spoken to her yet): can't actually draw to save his own life (I've seen him try), gives out assignments that could be potentially cool but shoots down any possible interesting idea we could have. Still, we're stuck with them so let's just make the most of it.

I think degrading is a stronger term and it implies humiliation.
Objectifying merely means that the person depicted isn't actually depicted as a person, but rather as an object to lust on. Which frankly isn't that wrong to me, in the right context (as this pin-up is in the graphic novel/movie).

There's ALSO a difference between objectifying, which implies that the subject isn't considered as a person at all, and sexualizing, which just means showing the subject as sexualized but not denying their being a person/character.


Although I must say I love you all guys but I found some comments a bit puzzling. Just because a woman is an extreme feminist and crazy and wrong, it doesn't mean it's because they're ugly and fat. I do know many of you are joking and this is kinda off topic anyways, *shrugs*

[JeffX99]

is there a difference between objectifying and degrading?

I think so...because objectifying can also be honoring - which was my point. Is the Mona Lisa degrading? The pinup is the same "in kind" as the Mona Lisa.

[PxelSlayer]

Well, this thread is getting...interesting...

Tell your teacher to google "Pin up". Then to google "World War II". And then "morale" and/or "motivation". And finally, those 3 combined.

If all fails, make a pin up of Comedian and let her contemplate about all the hidden/deep meanings of it. Should keep her busy for a while.

[bcarman]

In our own twisted way we have made artspeak which labels objectification as purely a negative. I agree that objectification is a much broader term and we should be careful in labeling anything. Degrading is a horrible word and should not have been used in the context of this argument. Whether one believes pin-ups to be trampling on the purity of womankind or not I don't believe that there is an argument for pin-ups as degrading.

[Two Listen]

I certainly think pin-ups and things of this nature somewhat work towards the objectification of women. Some women will find it glorifying, some women will find it offensive. And depending on this woman's past experiences, she may have very good reason to find the image offensive. Just like some will have good reason for finding it glorifying. But...that's just my interpretation of it.

Is it right for her to force her views onto you? Who knows. Maybe you could learn something from it. Is it right for you to do something knowing that it's offending someone - especially someone you'll have to deal with later? Who knows. Both are theoretically up for debate. It's not technically your fault some find the image offensive. It might also not be entirely their fault that they find the image offensive themselves. Things are never as black and white as they seem to be.

Besides. You're here starting a thread to see how many people agree with you. You seem pretty adamant about doing whatever you want regardless of consequence. How does that make you any different from the teacher? You're both forcing your views on one another. What makes yours "better" than hers?

Also, I've always hated it when people looked at their teachers and automatically thought "They can't draw that good, they suck, why are they even teaching?" Yeah, that's a real good mindset to be in when you're wanting to learn something.

One of the best art teachers I ever had was a substitute in high school, had him for a couple months. The guy was so old, he couldn't put pencil to paper and draw a one inch line without it looking like crap. His hands were so shaky, and I had a feeling he was never that "fantastic" just from what I could guess. But you know what? The guy had been teaching students for 40 years, and he sure as shit knew what he was talking about. Helped me more in his couple months than most other teachers combined.

I'm sure even some of the wonderful teachers here on these forums have had REALLY talented students roll through, whose works were right up there with their own. But if I had to bet, they didn't just sit back and say "Well I can't teach this kid because his paintings already look just as good as mine. I will just ignore him and teach the other children." They probably thought "Now here's a kid, who I might actually be able to teach something!" (Depending, I'm sure there are exceptions.)

In your case blueknightfox, I will just say - in the words of Jack Sparrow: "The only rules that really matter are these: What you can do. And what you can't do." If she can, as the teacher, force you to do something else for the project... Well then there you go. You can technically disobey. And she can technically fail you.

A few years from now when you're no longer in high school. Well, probably immediately after high school is done, you'll realize "Oh wow. That didn't actually matter at all."

[Burhtun]

I don't see what the big deal is. Your teacher doesn't want you to copy some lame pin-up. This reminds me of a time from my high school art class, when our teacher asked us to bring in an object to draw a still-life from. I brought in my big honkin' Rancor doll. She wouldn't let me draw it. I got over it.

I still draw sci-fi/fantasy creatures, its still my favorite thing to draw; but art classes are about opening up to new ideas and learning from your instructors, not doing the same stuff you would do on your own time.

Maybe she is a lousy teacher, if so you don't have to take instruction from her after you get through this course. Or maybe you'll thank her later down the road.

[John English]

blueknightfox-

I apologize for my earlier comment concerning your art teacher! I am fairly new around here and did not even consider that you are attending High School.
My comment was aimed at a College instructor and is unfair to your High School art teacher. Please apologize to your instructor for me!

If that comment did come from an instructor in an Art and Design College, I would be concerned for many reasons.

Good luck and respect your instructors!

John

[TASmith]

"I told her about this thread."

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

Serriously, bad idea. On the topic of objectification, I had a great professor/painter once who showed an exhibit at our school. The paintings were a series of portraits of his family - his wife and daughter, and there was a lot of symbolism taken from art history/the renaissance. They were all damn good works. Another professor who was an absolute twit looked at them and didn't like them because he thought they were objectifying women. One of my classmates told the painter about the comment, but wouldn't say who'd said it. The artist just shrugged and said, "Sounds like the words of someone with a little bit of education and not much else." I thought that summed up the twit perfectly.

[George Abraham]

It might also be that she was coming on to you.

I keep trying to imagine the situation and she keeps walking away in a peculiar way.

[TASmith]

You want to know what's degrading to women? I'm a teacher, and today in class a student asked me (in Slovak), "What does drunk mean?"

I heard "dunk" and explained what a slamdunk is, and eventually they said the word closely enough that I could understand and I said, oh, that means "opity".

She asks, "Then what does drunk'nizzy mean?"

Drunk'nizzy? I think... Something to do with Snoop Dog? They'd asked about rap lyrics before...

"No," she says, "izzy." Another student corrects her. Easy...

Drunk and Easy...

So, I ask her, where did you read this?

"On a pair of panties I was thinking of buying. So what does it mean?"

At that point it was time to just move on...

Point is, some women are degrading to women, just as some men are degrading to men...

[alesoun]

...or for a small fee, I'd be happy to come to your school in a pink ninja outfit and break your leg or something so you miss her class for the assignment...

At the risk of objectifying you... I'd really like a pic of the pink ninja outfit, Kitty! :P

[karma militia]

I certainly think pin-ups and things of this nature somewhat work towards the objectification of women. Some women will find it glorifying, some women will find it offensive. And depending on this woman's past experiences, she may have very good reason to find the image offensive. Just like some will have good reason for finding it glorifying. But...that's just my interpretation of it.

Have you read the watchmen graphic novel? because that is exactly the message of this Sally Jupiter character.

(Btw, everyone should read it, it's excellent, with plenty of little easter-eggs for the visually aware. Plus, it got in Time magazines 'Top 100 Novels of all time')

The important factor is the time-period. (that pinup would be from the 40's/50's.)

It's all summed up pretty well in this little retrospective of James Bond Girls.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/1456-Special-Bond-Girls

[JJacks]

I'm kind of disappionted at all of the posts insulting this teacher and the general length of the thread.

Just do your assignment the way she tells you and stop being difficult about it. I hardly think a Vargas inspired pin-up from James Jean counts as a master copy. I say this as a great fan of his work; I'm in love with his paintings.

Secondly, you're in high school. How would it reflect on her professionally if she allowed you to do work like that? She could get in hot water for that actually.

Just do your work and draw it for yourself if you're still so passionate about it. -_-

[Jacob Kobryn]

I'm kind of disappionted at all of the posts insulting this teacher and the general length of the thread.

Just do your assignment the way she tells you and stop being difficult about it. I hardly think a Vargas inspired pin-up from James Jean counts as a master copy. I say this as a great fan of his work; I'm in love with his paintings.

Secondly, you're in high school. How would it reflect on her professionally if she allowed you to do work like that? She could get in hot water for that actually.

Just do your work and draw it for yourself if you're still so passionate about it. -_-

See, that's the really messed up part about it. And it stretches back to the basis of judeo-christian society, not just governmental rules.

[kingmaker]

I dont think its pretty offensive... But to be honest its not..

[George Abraham]

Might not be a master copy but..

It's kinda irony that alot of the masters got accused of degrading woman. What they did commonly reduced some royals even to the lines of prostitutes etc.

They where also good at rousing ridiculous amounts of jealousy, there where not much availlable in terms of media back then so you can just imagine how freakin awesome such a painting must have been and how much hatred it caused in some.

Don't know if what the fashions was back then though on what was considered pervy if there even was such a thing, seeing woman bathing back then weren't such a big Hooha!!

Two very powerfull words in this thread, Degrading and Objectifying.
Take it as education.

[blueknightfox]

I don't see what the big deal is. Your teacher doesn't want you to copy some lame pin-up. This reminds me of a time from my high school art class, when our teacher asked us to bring in an object to draw a still-life from. I brought in my big honkin' Rancor doll. She wouldn't let me draw it. I got over it.

I still draw sci-fi/fantasy creatures, its still my favorite thing to draw; but art classes are about opening up to new ideas and learning from your instructors, not doing the same stuff you would do on your own time.

Maybe she is a lousy teacher, if so you don't have to take instruction from her after you get through this course. Or maybe you'll thank her later down the road.

She does want me or anyone else to draw any pinup.

[blueknightfox]

"I told her about this thread."

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

Serriously, bad idea. On the topic of objectification, I had a great professor/painter once who showed an exhibit at our school. The paintings were a series of portraits of his family - his wife and daughter, and there was a lot of symbolism taken from art history/the renaissance. They were all damn good works. Another professor who was an absolute twit looked at them and didn't like them because he thought they were objectifying women. One of my classmates told the painter about the comment, but wouldn't say who'd said it. The artist just shrugged and said, "Sounds like the words of someone with a little bit of education and not much else." I thought that summed up the twit perfectly.

Relax she doesn't care about the thread.

That sums up a lot of people.

[blueknightfox]

It might also be that she was coming on to you.

I keep trying to imagine the situation and she keeps walking away in a peculiar way.

......

[blueknightfox]

You want to know what's degrading to women? I'm a teacher, and today in class a student asked me (in Slovak), "What does drunk mean?"

I heard "dunk" and explained what a slamdunk is, and eventually they said the word closely enough that I could understand and I said, oh, that means "opity".

She asks, "Then what does drunk'nizzy mean?"

Drunk'nizzy? I think... Something to do with Snoop Dog? They'd asked about rap lyrics before...

"No," she says, "izzy." Another student corrects her. Easy...

Drunk and Easy...

So, I ask her, where did you read this?

"On a pair of panties I was thinking of buying. So what does it mean?"

At that point it was time to just move on...

Point is, some women are degrading to women, just as some men are degrading to men...

It's time to teach them about life.
BTW I have nothing against teachers even this one.

[blueknightfox]

At the risk of objectifying you... I'd really like a pic of the pink ninja outfit, Kitty! :P

Me too. I want to draw it.
Draw everything amiright?

[blueknightfox]

I'm kind of disappionted at all of the posts insulting this teacher and the general length of the thread.

Just do your assignment the way she tells you and stop being difficult about it. I hardly think a Vargas inspired pin-up from James Jean counts as a master copy. I say this as a great fan of his work; I'm in love with his paintings.

Secondly, you're in high school. How would it reflect on her professionally if she allowed you to do work like that? She could get in hot water for that actually.

Just do your work and draw it for yourself if you're still so passionate about it. -_-

True but I just like the painting...
Damn it I know you have a point.

[hang10sk8r]

comes down to pure freedom of expresion

[Mr_S_14]

Save Pushing the limits for college, my college instructors love it. I couldn't stand highschool. Sometimes teachers suck at communicating, essentially I don't know what the breif for your assignment is, so I can't say much, but you kind of have to take everything in that your instructors say and apply it to your work in some way. They tend to be giving clues, and there's probably something to learn from the assignments they give. so do them in the order they say, and if you love art, study/do it in your own time. I don't love writing, but I still go to the library to get books on writing essays. why ?One; because 50 minutes in class isn't enough to learn what I need to get an A, and two, I'm a performer, I like to show what I can do. I do the same thing with illustration assignments, I search online for examples of what the assignment is.
Collect all the information you can about an assignment, and then build from there. I don't do a 5 point perspective drawing when I get a 3 point perspective assignment. but I might sneek an MC escher poster in the corner of the illustration somewhere.

If she says Draw a Boat, Draw Space Ship with Sails on it, or A Boat with a decal of Victory/Nike on it, Show her what degrading women really is/isn't but don't shove it in your instructors face.(Nike is far from degrading women.)

[Ninjerk]

One reply, dude. Multi-quote.

[mundanity]

Grow up. Seriously. Stop trying to stir up your teacher, you're not skilled enough yet to do it properly and you just look like a child throwing a tantrum because your mum won't let you have a nerf gun or something. You're in high school, your job is to do as your told and graduate, and then maybe when you can choose pinups to copy by actual masters which look like human beings and not some weird aliens from planet Fuckmenow and you can actually copy them in a way which somewhat resembles the original artwork (which, looking at your sketchbook, I don't think is going to happen in this instance), then you can argue the inherent irony of the piece in a satisfactory manner. Or you can not, and be like Amanda Palmer. Either way, pick your battles better, since you're definitely not going to win this one, and it's not worth fighting for over the piece you've chosen.

Edit: JFC I just realised you can't even spell "degrading". What I said above, this time with exclamation marks.

[ObaBear]

Considering you're in high school paint the boat or something else. From my memory teachers like that have a chip on their shoulder and just won't listen. The whole degrading women thing is bullshit, and I say this as a woman and a non batshit crazy feminist. I could go on about culture and religion wrecking it for the female form and all that stuff. However I'm tired and can;t even get my words out properly.

Plus I have my own homework. gonna draw me some sexy plants for Botanical Imagery. o bb.

[DamnDirtyApe]

Just move on.. Gotta pick your battles and this isn't worth it. That F will always be on your record when you go looking for colleges, while she will quickly forget about the whole thing. So it's a situation you cant win.

Being told what you can and can't draw is common in schools. At Art Center a lot of teachers got their panties in a bunch if you drew any sort of guns or weaponry. But its useless trying to fight it because it's THEIR class, not yours.

[flash jordan]

While I may disagree with your teachers opinion on pinups, I do agree that since you're in HS you should just suck it up. Now if this was college I'd appeal the shit out of it :)

[FightingSeraph]

It's a good thing my high school didn't even think about using pin-ups for references. Then again, I wasn't fond of the one I went to during the rest of my Junior and Senior years. Maybe I should stand up for myself...

[Christian223]

It is like showing known actors smoking I guess, if you show something that is degrading in a glamorous manner, you are supporting that same degrading thing. So if a woman shows a degrading behaviour and you show it in a kind of way that makes it glamorous or "better looking to the eyes of people", you are supporting such behaviour.

Imagine painting a scene of a rape in a way that shows it as something positive and beautiful... it's the same thing but different subject I guess.

People have different morals. Your teacher may think that women who show themselves as objects are degrading themselves, but these women may thing otherwise. Maybe lot's of women would feel degraded if they did show themselves that way, but the women who do, love to do it, maybe...

It is like when people who used to work and get paid very well loose their jobs to over seas people who get paid very bad, so they complain and wished they didn't do that because it affects what their employers expect of their employees.

Maybe art has the power to be part of any culture. Maybe it can shape the way people think, so that's why your teacher is worried about what kind of things are part of the culture and wishes that less people would degrade women or look at women in a superficial way, so she is just saying "please do not contribute to culture in that way". Something to think about, hopefully.

[Sepulverture]

I'd get the grade, and then after I graduated I'd do a version of the Mona Lisa shooting high beams, sign the back of it, and send it to her as a gift.

Holy shit Arttorney!

I did this before. Not a Mona Lisa shooting the high beams, but something like it.

When I was in high school a teacher stole a drawing of mine under the pretext of having lost it after having asked me many times to exhibit it in the school art show, and my having turned her down because I didn't want to loose it. She told me that it had been misplaced somehow, however a friend of mine who was a teachers assistant in another class of hers had found it in her desk drawer about 2 months later.

She was a horrible art teacher, the only art she appreciated to any degree was cave man art (seriously, no exaggeration), so when after I had made a moderate amount of improvement in my graphite drawing skills I slipped it into her class during a visit back to my hometown. With the drawing, which was an elaborated anatomy study I left a note asking how she likes the fact that I was able to study and work on my art by myself in my spare time far better than she was capable of teaching it, and told her she ought to be ashamed of herself needing to steal sketches from 17 year old kids to further her own goals.

[Sepulverture]

That is not true. The courts have upheld the free speech rights of students many times.

For example, teacher gives an art assignment to "paint your favorite subject." Student paints a picture of Jesus. Teacher says that's not allowed. Student's parents sue and student wins.

I wouldn't fight this one though. It's not worth the hassle.


it's true to a degree that students have the right to free speech... To a degree.

Friend of mine took a Satanists Bible to all of our classes just to prove a point.

Living in a primarily LDS community he was treated rather harshly for bringing the book. He argued that it was perfectly OK for there to be an LDS seminary class on school grounds, and for students to often pray and recite passages from the Book of Mormon while school was in session, so why wasn't it OK for him to express his religious beliefs. He was ultimately expelled from the school. Afterward he took the case to court and after appealing several times outside of the LDS community we grew up in he finally won against the school district, which had to pay him a settlement and offer him re-enrollment and help him in making up the graduation credits that he missed out on for being expelled from school due to religious bias.