Torn between two things, not sure where to go... opinions please??

[Candimente]

Hello, it's me again. This may sound like a bit of a silly question, but I'm actually kind of stuck so I can't help but ask...

My style is fairly cartoony, but it sticks around realism too, and it's the result of a gradual transition from generic anime to a look of my very own. However, I'm still not very happy...

I've been studying anatomy a lot this month and I've made some good improvements, but I'm concentrating so hard on anatomy that I've lost a sense of movement and flow in my drawings, and I've gotten rusty at drawing facial expressions. I admire the art of cartooning and I love drawing things that are quite animated and expressive, but I can't make them look right unless I have a basic understanding of anatomy.

So I'm kind of stuck inbetween wanting to learn anatomy and wanting to draw even more crazy cartoony stuff! Cartoons make me happy but I need to know anatomy and realism if I ever want to get a job drawing people :/

Sooo... I ask for your opinions on what I should do, where I should go first?? Because I'm feeling a bit lost and torn between two things right now... please and thank you!

Here is my sketchbook with anatomy studies: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=155050&page=2
Here is my DeviantArt gallery with the stuff I normally do/did: http://midnightgem.deviantart.com/

P.S. Bear in mind that I'm starting school again next week, so I won't have time to take figure drawing classes or anything.

[TASmith]

I think you've only just begun your anatomy studies, and you need to push them much farther. I'd try and copy all the Bridgeman drawings in his anatomy books, as a start. That's going to be my project once I get my studio finished. I like your cartoons, and the one violin study is really nice, but I don't see them as flowing or suggesting much eye movement. Studying more anatomy will only help you in all the directions you want to go. If you look back at the cartoons on your devart account, notice how you're relying so much on outlines, without drawing much of interior forms of the body. Also, the way your figures' limbs twist is often unnatural, and you need to study hands more.

This may sound harsh, but I do think you show promise, and with some intense study, you could make a huge amount of progress in a pretty short time.

[vineris]

Just do both. Nothing says you have to do one or the other for a month. Set aside some time for doing anatomy studies (or whatever aspect of art you're working on) every few days and do fun stuff at other times.

[Elwell]

Those things, that you think are two different things?
They're really not.
Stress less, draw more.

[Candimente]

TASmith - Who is this Bridgeman, and where am I likely to find his books? How can I focus more on shape than outline?

vineris - Pretty straightforward, thanks! :)

Elwell - Really? Please elaborate?

[Bill]

If I'm inventing a pose it helps me to gesture out that pose several times. I use 14x17 paper and draw the basic pose on the left hand side, then try it again on the right. Then I erase the first one and use the second as ref for what now is the third try at that pose. Since any particular version of that sketch isn't going to be the final it helps me keep fluid. Happy accidents come into play and the invented figures tend to be less stiff than if I simply start by choosing a pose blocking it in and refining it to finish.

I don't know your process but if you don't incorporate a heavy dose of gesture drawing at the beginning then, for whatever it's worth, that'd be something I'd suggest. If you look through Sean Galloway's Deviant Art page you'll see before and afters of his sketches as gestures up to finishes.

If that doesn't work I'd spend immense amounts of time focusing on shoulders and noses.

[soul-core]

You can find Bridgeman's books here: http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131116&highlight=free+books along with other free e-books.

And I agree with Elwell.

I'm not good with words (or to be exact, I'm feeling the language barrier right now), so I can't actually explain why, but I guess, if you read/watch Vilppu, you'll get the gist.

And about Vilppu, google is our friend :D
(Lots of good chaps here do Vilppu studies too!)

[Chris Bennett]

Elwell - Really? Please elaborate?

Cartoons are selective amplifications of things we see. We call this stylisation, but selective amplification describes what actually happens in the process of 'cartooning'.
Learning about and understanding anatomy and developing the ability to fluently describe this knowledge is the foundation upon which the cartooning process can happen.

As Picasso said: "From the grape we make wine, but I've never known it happen the other way around......"
And I'll add, wine doesn't happen ready bottled either.

[JeffX99]

I've been studying anatomy a lot this month and I've made some good improvements...

I'm not sure for others but it can take 2-3 years easy before you start to understand just how much you don't know. And we all get quite "rusty" when we don't stay on top of it. Think about it like learning to play the guitar - probably won't happen in a few months. But like everyone said - just keep working at all aspects of studying the figure/portrait if that is your interest and focus.

[mickequ]

I agree with what others here are saying. Cartoon-style and anatomy aren't mutually exclusive! The best cartoonists, in my opinion, have a clear base of good anatomy and other art basics. That doesn't mean REALISTIC anatomy, but you know, they understand how a body works and doesn't so things don't look awkward!

I think some might advise you to abandon cartoons and spend hours drawing every flabby fold of real human models... but in my opinion, I think what would benefit you more is just trying to draw more informed cartoon-style things! Not everyone has to be a detail-crazy, accuracy obsessed painter, you get my drift?

[Candimente]

Bill - That sounds like a good method. Thank you :)

soul-core - I will check those out, thank you.

Chris Bennett - I know this, but... ehh, nevermind. Forget I was confused at all.

JeffX99 - oh, lovely. I seem to be impatient with my art, I want to get good right away but instead I'm taking DONKEY'S YEARS to finally accomplish something. It's quite depressing because everyone keeps saying "OMG I LOVE YOUR WORK PLEASE DO MORE!!" but I seem to be the only one who can see that my work is really awful compared to other people's. I want to get good, but studying anatomy is such a slow process for me, sometimes I just feel like giving up and that's even more depressing when I see people my age doing way better.

Meeleena - I could never abandon cartoons, they're what keeps me going and they're how I express my emotions. And yes, I get your drift, hehe. :)

[Chris Bennett]

Chris Bennett - I know this, but... ehh, nevermind. Forget I was confused at all.


And I'll forget about expecting a 'thank you for trying to help me out' as well.

[Candimente]

And I'll forget about expecting a 'thank you for trying to help me out' as well.

Sorry mate, I didn't mean to sound rude or anything. I know that cartoons take aspects of anatomy and exaggerate/stylize them, like you said; but I was confused for a different reason that I don't actually know now. Again, I'm sorry for the way that sounded :(

[Chris Bennett]

Now worries Candimente - all is forgiven! Sometimes stuff comes over all wrong on this kind of thing as I should well know! But thank you for your apologies - mine too for being a little over-sensitive.

Chris.

[JeffX99]

I seem to be impatient with my art, I want to get good right away but instead I'm taking DONKEY'S YEARS to finally accomplish something.

but I seem to be the only one who can see that my work is really awful compared to other people's.

I want to get good, but studying anatomy is such a slow process for me, sometimes I just feel like giving up and that's even more depressing when I see people my age doing way better.


Oh yeah - everyone feels that way. Try to shift to the "larger picture" where you are on a path or journey of growth - you are actually working not on individual pieces but trying to develop into a better artist throughout your life. Even "Master Artists" continue to strive for improvement throughout their lives.

We all feel that way as well - few of us can hold a candle to the Masters - historical or contemporary. You just have to do your best to be as good as you can in your particular focus.

Don't get too worried about anatomy - I've never really studied it in much detail. Artists don't have to worry too much about it - there are only a couple dozen important "anatomical landmarks" for the artist - and even those you don't have to be too technical about. The terminology/vocabulary is only important if you want to teach or be able to talk about certain points. For someone interested in cartooning I would say there is even less need for a technical understanding of anatomy.

Basically you want to study how to see/observe and then explore how to express yourself. Just depends on where you want to go with it - realism, abstraction, cartoon stylization - it all comes down to the same fundamentals - some expressions just emphasize diffeerent aspects of those fundamentals over others.

[riceface]

u need to learn anatomy based on ur drawings, and what makes u think cartoons and anatomy is different? this is a finearts forum where people learn to be great not settle with cartoons, if u dont know who bridgeman is then u got alot to learn,

and 2,3 months learning is a joke, i will tell u what people tell me, ur not good enough to have a style, learn to actually draw.

[Sidharth Chaturvedi]

this is a finearts forum where people learn to be great not settle with cartoons

How long have you been here again? :P

[Candimente]

Chris Bennett - You're welcome. Glad we got that cleared up. :)

JeffX99 - Thank you for your helpful post - you are right, I do need to go on a bit of a journey and explore different ways of creating art. :) Anatomy is important to me because I so badly want to draw people right, but I don't want to put all my time into it, y'know?

riceface - Yes, I know I need to learn anatomy. If you read the posts on this thread, you'd have seen that someone explained the relationship between cartoons and anatomy to me and I understood. And... I'm sorry, but "learn to actually draw" actually irritated me, I found it rude and uncalled for. I can draw, but not as well as what you might expect. If the work in my sketchbook isn't drawing, then I don't know what is. So I think you crossed the line with me there, mate. Good day.

[Falchion]

Pick a third route. My old pieces varied between drawing far too heavily from anime/manga and botched realism. After taking a week to really look around for inspiration, I picked up a completely different style.

[Candimente]

Falchion - Really? Hmm... I am trying to avoid style right now, though. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate your help :), but I'm afraid I can't really see myself picking up a new style within a week, though there are many styles out there that inspire me.

[Bill]

I think style is something that's difficult to avoid, wether you want to or not. Just keep drawing and eventually your personal style will take shape.

I know that a personal, distinctive style is encouraged for the freelance types. I wonder if it could work against someone working towards a staff gig?

[Kraus]

Anatomy is unrelated to being able to come up with interesting facial expressions. Everyone's facial anatomy is pretty much the same, however everyone flexes their muscles differently to make expressions unique to them... Drawing animated and expressive things requires more so 'acting' and being able to portray emotion..not underying muscles (unless it's a stringy old person)

Having a good grasp on dynamics and emotional expression is far more rewarding in the long run. Otherwise you'll be stuck with realistic but boring pieces. Academic knowledge is good...on the background...on the need to reference basis..it will subconciously creep up on you the more you study it...but it will never evoke emotion out of the viewer, just like looking at yourself in the mirror doesn't.


Now as far as style is concirned, don't worry about it. Once you have a grasp on expressive and academicly correct art, you'll be able to make or replicate any style you want.

[Xeon_OND]

Don't get too worried about anatomy - I've never really studied it in much detail. Artists don't have to worry too much about it - there are only a couple dozen important "anatomical landmarks" for the artist - and even those you don't have to be too technical about. The terminology/vocabulary is only important if you want to teach or be able to talk about certain points. For someone interested in cartooning I would say there is even less need for a technical understanding of anatomy.
Thank God. Everytime anatomy is being mentioned, my mind would have scary images of Mentler and that I've to be like him before I can even draw a proper looking figure. :D

[Candimente]

Bill - True... I have a feeling that I may either end up with a style that's a cross between my old one and realism, or I'll end up with a completely new style. Either way is good for me, as long as I can draw right :P

Kraus - Very well put. That's why I drew cartoons for such a long time, because if there's one thing I'm naturally good at, it's making up interesting expressions and so this was my way of expressing myself through my art. So I guess that's why people loved my stuff so much. But now I need to pay attention to my anatomy, and you're right, once I get a grasp on that, I'll have more freedom with my art, right? :)

[Kraus]

Well in the end your imagination is the freedom with your art, good foundations like anatomy will simply stamp that 'professional' sticker on anything you do so you can land a career easier (if that's your goal that is) and will make you at ease finding different styles.

I allways did art to entertain as well, never gave a damn about foundations, until i started coming up with more complex entertainment and realised 'oh shiet, how do i draw this in this position'...