Sniping for Jesus

[Jason Ross]

Military gun scope manufacturer is engraving Christian bible passages onto the scopes...and admits it openly.
OqTbl8MH1cU

[Pigeonkill]

...That's going to instigate a whole lot more Jihads and trouble. I mean what's next holy water blessed ammunition? I thought church and state was suppose to be separate and other military based operation as well.

If there is a soldier kept as a hostage and some extremist finds he's been using a "Jesus gun." He's screwed and coming home in a body bag :(

http://datingjesus.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/v3.jpg
Do Jesus and guns even mix? O_o

[DeadlyFreeze]

Well I lost that last little bit of respect I had for Rachel Maddow, nice work reporting on stupid poo poo.

[crossmirage]

Well I lost that last little bit of respect I had for Rachel Maddow, nice work reporting on stupid poo poo.

I'd blame people for doing stupid poo poo in the first place.

[Cthogua]

Yeah...to me its not even so much that the "secret bible codes" are on the scopes...they're barely noticeable and if you don't know what they're referencing it's just letters and numbers.

HOWEVER, what I do find tragically hilarious is the idea that this devoutly religious company is making tools to improve the efficiency of killing machines. It doesn't come as any real surprise since I've known for a long time that beneath the soft woolly veneer Christianity tries to hide under lies an ideology of militarism, genocide, and world domination. In fact monotheism, by it's very nature seems to breed and actually mandate a type of expansionary, militant, cultural imperialism. I think it's hilarious when people try to quote passages from the Koran to show how dangerous Islam is to Western society...completely ignoring that the bible, especially the old testament says all the same shit about wiping out or enslaving unbelievers, or peoples of different faiths, or at very least how unworthy said unbelievers are. It seems like the last time I got involved in a religious discussion on here I was directed to this bible passage. Luke 12:46
46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Within the context of that particular section of Luke, it is a discussion about how a servant or slave should act concerning his/her master, but it's pretty plainly a parable in which God/Jesus is the master and we are the slaves/servants, and likens unbelievers to misbehaving slaves who will be butchered by the lord when he returns.

I saw a bumper sticker the other day...right next to a "Got Jesus" sticker, that said "Tolerance is for those who lack conviction"

[s.ketch]

Yeah the US military walking around with references to bible verses on their guns has no implications whatsoever.

[Cthogua]

Who gives a crap. Its just words. They aren't magical incantations (except to the lunatics who believe in magical incantations. )


I would say that anyone who believes in, and prays to god believes in "magical incantations"...and that's not even getting into ritual stuff like Baptisms, Communion, Confessions, etc. When I was a young teenager at a church summer camp I was literally taken aside when it was discovered that I had not been baptised, and forced to say the words "I accept Jesus Christ in to my heart as my lord and Savior" and that was all they wanted me to do. They firmly believed that if I just said it, even if I didn't understand exactly what it meant, then I was still "saved" If that's not belief in a magical incantation I don't know what is.

[TASmith]

When I was a teen I went to bible camp just to meet chicks. All boys' school syndrome... I never could stomach it, though, the best part was the drive to and from, through the woods.

[BirdBirdBirdX3]

US troops are fighting for freedom, against terror, and making way for Jesus?

So when you spray the enemy with bullets does that baptism them or something?

[Jason Rainville]

US troops are fighting for freedom, against terror, and making way for Jesus?

So when you spray the enemy with bullets does that baptism them or something?

Non-contributive post of the day:

My friend and I were thinking about what gun Jesus would use in the PnP rpg Rifts. We came up with the idea that he'd have a double-barelled shotgun that fired cybernetic eyes.

He'd cure your blindness by shooting you in the face.

[Darjan Jurincic]

they should put ezekiel 25:17 on each magnum (Samuel L. Jackson style)....:/
geeeezzz.....

[Kek]

Come on! It's just a few easter egg numbers in the serial.

Some of you are just looking for things to cry about.

[Schnookiefoo]

Like an illiterate insurgent will pick up one of our weapons, see "JN8:12" and connect it to the Bible verse.

The only people endangering our troops here are the far left media reporting on this, alerting everyone that the verses are there. Highly unlikely that any of the enemy would figure this out for themselves in the rare event that they got their hands on one of our weapons.

[Elam]

and admits it openly.
Helloooo.... They've been doing 'openly' it for 30 YEARS, Rachel left that fact out. Oh and apparently she's a constitutional scholar now, because a gun manufacturer putting bible verses on guns is 'unconstitutional' or something.

[Anid Maro]

Next thing you know, we'll find out that our soldiers actually read the books being referenced! Oh the humanity!

[Ian Barker]

It doesn't come as any real surprise since I've known for a long time that beneath the soft woolly veneer Christianity tries to hide under lies an ideology of militarism, genocide, and world domination.

This is pretty offensive.

When can we stop talking about Religion in the Lounge? I visit this part of the forum to relax, not to see people's beliefs be spat upon.

[BirdBirdBirdX3]

Non-contributive post of the day:

My friend and I were thinking about what what gun Jesus would use in the PnP rpg Rifts. We came up with the idea that he'd have a double-barelled shotgun that fired cybernetic eyes.

He'd cure your blindness by shooting you in the face.

Okay okay I think I get it now *Pew pew*

http://rupyb.com/dbimg/images/gallery/rupy/76_jesus__600_x_700.jpg

At least the scopes they bought still work.

[s.ketch]

If the verses are just words and it's innocent numbers tacked on the serial and not a big deal then why are they there in the first place? People in charge of companies don't randomly spend money on things that are no big deal or don't matter.

Someone has a message, a religious one. Which I support the freedom to have and spread personal messages as well as defending everyone's right to do the same. But there is a difference between an individual speaking their religious beliefs, say a soldier taking a piece of chalk and writing on their gun, and a multi-billion dollar company printing it on every gun that shoots bullets for a government institution. It's no longer an individual speaking on their own behalf, it's a few individuals speaking on behalf of an entire country. They're saying God supports those guns, God supports the troops and God supports the USA.

I don't know about you guys but I can speak for myself when it comes to matters of religion. If I were enlisted to protect everyone's freedom of speech I would be pissed that a group is trying to speak on others' behalf.

[modi123]

Here's an oldie but goodie..

Frank Loesser's "Praise the lord and pass the ammunition" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZs61VCJvTg)

[Anid Maro]

It's no longer an individual speaking on their own behalf, it's a few individuals speaking on behalf of an entire country. They're saying God supports those guns, God supports the troops and God supports the USA.

I don't know about you guys but I can speak for myself when it comes to matters of religion. If I were enlisted to protect everyone's freedom of speech I would be pissed that a group is trying to speak on others' behalf.

We already have God's name printed on our money, so what really does an almost invisible and vague reference to Bible verses say that our coins don't? The guns are bought with money that bears the name of God, so we've already been saying that God supports our guns and troops and country since 1956.

It's hard to care about some piddly thing like this because for one it's piddly, and for two my government's has been assuming and expressing my "faith" in God since before I was even born. There be bigger fish to fry out there.

[s.ketch]

I'm not suggesting that there be immediate legislative action against the company or that they should be sued. It was just in bad taste and a poor decision to allow the company to print religious messages on products to be used for a secular government.

I don't agree with the reporter's tone or the way she presented the story. Excuse me, I called her a reporter when clearly she isn't. But first it's sniper scopes next thing it's a giant slab outside courthouses or other government buildings. I don't think it should be on US currency either. If this is a small fish then let's go head and fry it up. It shouldn't take that long since it's a small issue.

[Jason Ross]

The fact that it is unconstitutional means NOTHING to some people. Seems that Bush was correct when he said the the Constitution is just a damn piece of paper. I wonder what would happen if the verses were from the Koran instead. Or maybe Hindu or Buddhists references instead.


"A company under fire for etching biblical references on rifle scopes used by the U.S. military said Thursday it will stop the practice, and offered to provide modification kits to the Pentagon to enable their removal on existing optics."

source (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/01/military_optics_012109w/)

[Anid Maro]

Well, a company etching Bible references (vague or not) on equipment isn't unconstitutional. That the government purchased said equipment is on the fence of constitutionality (especially since they could easily claim to be unaware in this case). The outcome of this isn't surprising ("Oh snap, we got caught! Okay, we'll stop"). But overall, it's a minor situation.

I wouldn't want anyone wasting effort on this when there's a worse offense on all of our currency, or when we already have our stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore#Ten_Commandments_monument_controversy) slabs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Orden_v._Perry). The U.S. Gov't purchasing these "Bible Rifles" might be unconstitutional, but printing "In God we Trust" on our money, reciting "Under God" in our anthem, and erecting monuments of the 10 Commandments are far clearer cases to fight (and all that more shocking when they're lost). This rifle thing is not a fight that's worth fighting.

As for the Constitution just being a scrap of paper (or not), well technically it is. But it does represent an ideal that we try to live up to in the best of times and is forgotten in the worst. I'd like to think we're closer to that ideal today than the day it was penned, but we still falter from time to time.

[Carnifex]

for some reason that reminded me of this:
<MosServ> Katto: They will keep fighting, they think that dying in battle for their God is the greatest honor. But they also think they'll go to hell if they have pork in their stomach. Solution: Pork bullets.
[/noncontributive post]

[Flashback]

Praise the lord and pass the ammo!

[Nakhon]

I don't know what to say...although just saying the word 'Jesus Gun' makes me laugh. xD (Thanks Pigeonkill, although it probably wasn't your intention).

First time I've seen this...now that I have, I must say all this religious stuff is getting out of hand. what happened to keeping religion to yourself and not spreading it like wildfire? I take it gone are those days.

Nowadays, what I see, it's either 'CONVERT!!!' or I will Devil May Cry your ass. Instead of 'Convert?...No?...well ok then, I still respect you'.

Also, putting it on a sniper rifle...um, people have small pocket-size religious items for for a reason. Why put it on an instrument that causes death (even if it is just verse from a text)? Is the military trying to make everyone into a Jesus Enforcer soldier?

Anyway, I don't know, I like reading religious text for a hobby because it's interesting and not because I wish to convert or enforce my beliefs on other people...sorry if I seem kinda elementary talking about this type of stuff. >_<

my two cents anyway. :)

[TASmith]

BAM

http://www.theonion.com/content/amvo/bible_verses_encoded_on_u_s

Why can't we get these guys to post here regularly?

[Little Sloth]

Hey Jesus what do you think of this?
“You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? (Matthew 5:43-47 )

Love those who persecute you, blow out the brains of those who persecute you. Same diff.

[Anid Maro]

Love those who persecute you, blow out the brains of those who persecute you. Same diff.

Is jes' a lil' rough love is all.

[Elam]

I must say all this religious stuff is getting out of hand. what happened to keeping religion to yourself and not spreading it like wildfire? I take it gone are those days.

heh, when was that? Christianity and Islam are both designed to spread, always have been.

I visit this part of the forum to relax, not to see people's beliefs be spat upon.
eh, how about you just don't enter threads that you know will bother you?

[Psychotime]

BAM

http://www.theonion.com/content/amvo/bible_verses_encoded_on_u_s

Why can't we get these guys to post here regularly?


I really need to read the Onion more often.

That's not fair. I heard the Jewish snipers got their rifles engraved with Seinfeld quotes.

[nauvice]

eh, how about you just don't enter threads that you know will bother you?

Its not the subject matter that's bothersome. more like the tone and ignorant comments marginalizing Christians. Even the 'reporter' in the OP does the same thing; rather than reporting the news objectively, she slips in her own bias opinion and assumptions in there basically choosing for you what to think. propaganda.

first, the company already announced they will no longer manufacture guns with engravings on them, and they will also provide kits to remove those engravings off of the other guns.

second. They've been doing it for 30yrs? It has nothing to do with the Iraq war or Muslims. Its just a company, not owned by the government, but started by a devout Christian who wanted his guns to have bible references on them. Maybe we should start an uproar against chinese fortune cookie companies for including mandarin words on those little papers? What are their plans? to convert Americans to communism?!!

...They make some of the best rifles in the world, and that's why they had a contract with the government, there might have never been some kind of Christian agenda (saying might, because I dont know the facts.... unlike that 'reporter' who's apparently knows their intentions.) Anyway, since the news, the US government didnt care, but some European countries did, which influenced the company to change their tradition. Im not a bible-thumping Christian but I still think they're selling out for surrendering to pressure (and money)

When the company said any complaints raised about this are from 'non-Christians'. I think that's too vague, they should have just said bored Atheists who love to start controversies over insignificant things. The same kind who feel offended if someone told them 'god bless you' or 'merry Christmas'.

[Brashen]

Hear hear!!

[Ilaekae]

If missing the point was compared to target shooting, as far as I can determine from some of the utterly stupid comments being made, the safest place to be would be right at the nearest bulls-eye while the wall around us gets shot to hell and back...

[Ian Barker]

zwarrior is on the money.

This topic could so easily get out of hand. Needs to be closed.

[Elam]

Its not the subject matter that's bothersome. more like the tone and ignorant comments marginalizing Christians..... *snip*

Hey, I completely agree with you.

But Liffey seems to have a bug up his ass and his solution is to stop discussion of religion in the lounge. Just ignore it it bothers you that much, or act like an adult and engage in discussion if it bothers you that much. Otherwise, move on. Nothing to see here. I'm always amazed by how people let themselves get worked up over sh*t that will never affect their lives.

Banning is for children( See the Islamic discussion thread ).

Im not a bible-thumping Christian but I still think they're selling out for surrendering to pressure (and money)

Yes, they are. And when you run a multi million dollar, global business, you'll probably do the same. It's a complicated world.

[Ian Barker]

But Liffey seems to have a bug up his ass and his solution is to stop discussion of religion in the lounge. Just ignore it it bothers you that much, or act like an adult and engage in discussion if it bothers you that much. Otherwise, move on. Nothing to see here. I'm always amazed by how people let themselves get worked up over sh*t that will never affect their lives.

Man, I'd love to discuss it. Trust me, I love discussing these things with people of different backgrounds... I'm not saying I don't want to be challenged with other beliefs. But I know from experience that many people are too ignorant and/or stubborn to really have an honest discussion about things like this. 9 times out of 10 it's the same routine of people pretending to know what they're talking about, and it ends up dividing rather than bringing people together, like CA.org was meant to do.

Yeah, I could just ignore these topics. But would you ignore a topic in which you knew people were saying things like "man, that Elam guy is such a piece of shit" when they really know nothing about you? I doubt it. Sure, no one has been bashing individuals in this thread, but they have been making ignorant comments about things they don't understand. At that something happens to be a big, integral part of some people's lives, mine included.

Anyways, I obviously can't stop anyone who wants to continue this silly topic. I just wanted to make my point clear.

[vampire cervix]

My days would be significantly less enjoyable without bible bashing rednecks.

[ZenzybaR]

It's because the U.S military is also fighting vampires. The bible verses send holy bullets with enough stopping power to hinder a vampire at distance so you can gain the CQC range to stake them.

It's simple tactics. Well done Hijimiconaki or whatever the name of the makers is.

[Armonah]

Bet none of those engravings are code of Exodus 20:13: Thou shall not kill

[Amber Alexander]

First of all, religion is always a heated topic but keep it respectful or it will be locked.


Interesting, having been a former soldier and non-christian, if my weapon had that inscribed on it, I would have been insulted particularly because as a solder you have NO say in what you are forced to wear and what equipment you are forced to use. In the miliary you generally get in trouble if you complain. However, luckily I was never issued a scope.

I say insulted because although money has "in god we trust" on it it doesn't say "in Jesus we trust". The in god we trust thing is pretty vague and can hold meaning for anyone spiritual but a bible verse is a particular religion. But anyway if they are stopping and giving kits to unenscribe them then great.

[Anid Maro]

I say insulted because although money has "in god we trust" on it it doesn't say "in Jesus we trust". The in god we trust thing is pretty vague and can hold meaning for anyone spiritual but a bible verse is a particular religion.

So "In God we Trust" isn't a problem because you find that God can represent your beliefs and are thus unoffensive to you and anyone else who holds similar beliefs as you?

I don't find it hard to imagine that the rifle scope manufacturers thought something along those lines about their Bible references.

Same logic, different beliefs.

[Ian Barker]

Bet none of those engravings are code of Exodus 20:13: Thou shall not kill

The proper translation of the Hebrew text is "murder", not "kill".

[Jason Ross]

People don't seem to understand the implications of this behavior amongst an Islamic theocratic region of the world. Engraving Christian texts on military issued "anything" is like pissing gasoline on a bonfire. These "Muslim" "Insurgents" are willing to pick up guns and/or strap bombs to themselves for what they BELIEVE in. Do our soldiers really need the added hatred?
The government is responsible for the actions of those that they give these multi- million/billion dollar contracts to. Our government is supposed to be secular. If George Bush stood up and said something like "God told me to invade" or something that like then I say let's drape the soldiers in a white tunic with a red cross on the front and give the invasion a biblical title.

Maybe we should start an uproar against chinese fortune cookie companies for including mandarin words on those little papers? What are their plans? to convert Americans to communism?!!

If the quotes inside them said "Death to all capitalists scum and their people! (In mandarin of course)" and caused instant death when thrown at such "capitalists scum or their people"...then you have a comparable analogy.

[Little Sloth]

This has nothing to do with Christianity. It is the fact that Jesus was all about turning the other cheek and loving your enemy. The fact that they are putting a passage from the bible on a weapon is funny, I mean do you think Jesus would be for that? Matt. 26:52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."
I would think the same thing if quotes from Buddha were on luxury items, or the Quran on short shorts.
This doesn't have anything to do with religion, it's about being contradictory.

[nauvice]

People don't seem to understand the implications of this behavior amongst an Islamic theocratic region of the world. Engraving Christian texts on military issued "anything" is like pissing gasoline on a bonfire. These "Muslim" "Insurgents" are willing to pick up guns and/or strap bombs to themselves for what they BELIEVE in. Do our soldiers really need the added hatred?
The government is responsible for the actions of those that they give these multi- million/billion dollar contracts to. Our government is supposed to be secular. If George Bush stood up and said something like "God told me to invade" or something that like then I say let's drape the soldiers in a white tunic with a red cross on the front and give the invasion a biblical title.


If the quotes inside them said "Death to all capitalists scum and their people! (In mandarin of course)" and caused instant death when thrown at such "capitalists scum or their people"...then you have a comparable analogy.

you see, the company was doing it for 30 years. Im sure the Iraq war isnt that old. So the connection there seems baseless

The founder of the company was a devout christian and just implemented his favorite part of his culture in something he makes. No different than mandarin in fortune cookies, or the many pop culture references found in various forms of media. If he was a devout star wars fan, he'd probably implement references of that on his guns instead, who knows.

They're one of the top manufacturers in the world, and that's why they had a deal with the government, from what I read, the governments of the US and other countries who bought guns from the company weren't aware of the bible marks. Once the news came out and some governments talked to the company, they had no problem removing these marks...

So any controversy surrounding this issue is all based on paranoia and accusations. Journalists have all the little details that fall perfectly into place; the Christian Government-associated company, the guns, the war in Iraq with Muslims. Ignore any unfavorable detail, like its been going since even before the war, the government's naivete and the possible fact that it was done more to commemorate the religion without some sort of agenda. And just create the Government's and the company's intentions for them. Voila, you've got yourself overly dramatic news that will scare people over nothing... that is so common in propaganda...

[Little Sloth]

you see, the company was doing it for 30 years. Im sure the Iraq war isnt that old. So the connection there seems baseless

The founder of the company was a devout christian and just implemented his favorite part of his culture in something he makes. No different than mandarin in fortune cookies, or the many pop culture references found in various forms of media. If he was a devout star wars fan, he'd probably implement references of that on his guns instead, who knows.




Well actually fortune cookies are not Chinese but are an American invention based on a Japanese cracker. Also Chinese writing is the same all over China, so this 'mandarin' could be any dialect...
Just clarifying.'

Really though is this not more about manufacturers then about Christians?

[Falchion]

Ah, Trijicon, Trijicon, Trijicon. Can't leave you alone for a few minutes and we can't give you nice things... The funny thing is, I've never really noticed those little notations they added. Always thought they were part of the MIL-STD codes.