What exactly makes a person a sellout?

[StephenJ]

I hear the term banded about alot by people in creative fields and I'm not quite sure I know what the line is. Or even what it is.

1. Is it someone who very overtly markets themselves? Because many of us have blogs that we direct others to?

2. Is it someone who sacrifices their artistic instincts to make someone else happy? Because most people with clients do that.

3. Or is it just a term we through at people who have the success that we'd like but don't have? Because that's not honest criticism that's just jealousy.


Just wanted to hear what everyones thoughts on the subject is.

Thanks for responding.

[Amber Alexander]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sellout kinda like #2 but on a much larger scale (you have a large fan base) and usually involves alot more money. Its a negative term but most of the time it is just working for clients, its business, just fans don't always like that.

[Jtho]

It depends who you ask, when talking about art.

To some people even "Illustrator" is a dirty word and synonymous with selling out--the "businessman artist".

To more sane people, a sellout is somebody who abandons their beliefs or convictions in order to make personal profit.

[dpaint]

The only things that make a person a sellout are jealousy and envy followed by rationalization. People want to believe you share their idea of (fill in the blank) when you deviate from their beliefs and follow your own path for your own reasons most people will label you a sellout.

[RyerOrdStar]

The only things that make a person a sellout are jealousy and envy followed by rationalization. People want to believe you share their idea of (fill in the blank) when you deviate from their beliefs and follow your own path for your own reasons most people will label you a sellout.

That's pretty much exactly it. Someone set you up in their mind as believing in a certain thing or behaving in a certain way, you go against that and all of a sudden you're a sellout. They, of course, didn't know that maybe you have your own reasons or you wanted to do that from the very beginning.

[The Pariano]

A sellout is someone who produces images with content specifically to cater to a very large market, as opposed to producing an image for means of self expression OR in the case of illustration, producing an image specifically for the client- but clients usually seek out an illustrator whose self expression shines through regardless of the content. ( what I mean in that sentence is that is an example of an illustrator NOT being a sellout)
What comes to mind is Thomas Kinkaide who instead of painting nascar and fanciful snow scenes should be painting his reflections of moments of pissing in public.

[FallenGodX11]

Steven I say it's probably number 2. I wouldn't say number 1 would make people a sell out because that just seems to be gathering an audience. The third is only a third person's perspective.

[Anid Maro]

What exactly makes a person a sellout?

Any sort of financial sense.

[kab]

The real question isn't "what is a sellout", but "who uses the term sellout", the answer is "an idiot"...

A "sellout" is someone who fails to comply with some idiot guidelines for coolness set down by people with idealized beliefs of what that person "should do" according to them... It is a term used by idiots in all areas of entertainment and life who fail to understand that self preservation is a key instinct in well-functioning humans. And that therefore, sustaining themselves through a good income often comes first, idealized idiot guidelines set down by the coolness police second.

[Flashback]

Sellout is a stupid word, created by stupid teenagers about shit they used to like but now don't.

[Leidenschaft]

Sellout is a stupid word, created by stupid teenagers about shit they used to like but now don't.

interesting...


well, i can't find some common ground between sellout and art. imho those are two completely different terms which are out of harmony with each other. when i deal with art in any way either go into museums or draw by myself: i never thought of being "productive" to reach the highest price or think of "woaw, he must have get millions for this picture. i want that too!"

thats a killer!

success comes by itself just give it some time. we're not living in the Middle Ages where your art has to crack through thousands of ethical or religious-walls to reach your counterpart (sry for my bad english i hope i made my point)

[J Wilson]

I've never heard any kind of professional use the phrase "sell out". I'd guess that at least 75% of the time, when a phrase like "sell out" is used, it's students or non professionals applying the phrase to describe someone trying to make a little money with their art. There's nothing wrong with applying the skills you've worked hard to improve to making a living!

The only way I'd consider someone a sell out is if they had firmly held beliefs that they tossed aside for a fat paycheck. And even then, there's a degree of separating your beliefs from your professionalism. I guess if the fat paycheck CHANGED your beliefs that is the only real selling out. For example, if you were a die hard animal rights advocate, but the beef industry dumped a wheel barrow of money on your lawn, and suddenly your opinion changed to "You know, they aren't that bad really..." I guess that would be selling out to me.

But except in those kinds of extreme cases, I'd ignore any accusations of "selling out" because most people who use that phrase are living in a fantasy land of made up rules.

[BirdBirdBirdX3]

Here's one example of a sellout, full article:

http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/aerosmith-maui.html

Aerosmith canceled their sold out performance September 26, 2007 concert at Hawaii. Over 10,000 ticket sold and fans turned down. Aerosmith claim they could not get their gear from Chicago in time for the island concert in Hawaii....but then...

Aerosmith snuck off instead to play in private for Toyota 6,000 car dealers and guests in the school's baseball stadium and pocketed $1 million. Way to screw over paying fans...

[Ninjerk]

Sellout is a stupid word, created by stupid teenagers about shit they used to like but now don't.

I liked that word before it was cool. Now everyone likes it, and they don't even understand half of it.

[StephenJ]

What made me think of this topic was looking at Thomas Kinkade movie "The Christmas cottage." It aired on Lifetime recently. I have mixed feelings about his work but it got me thinking. Here's a man who's been called a sellout (that's one of the nicer things) by his peers for years for perceived pandering to evangelical housewives, and the less artistically literate sections of America. But many other painters also pander to certain audiences, or sacrifice their own opinions to satisfy an art director/portrait sitter/demographic. Does the act of pandering or adjusting to please people make you a sellout?

[thespirals]

i think selling out is like where someone starts out doing things in a small scale, intimate setting. for me, its painting live at small underground for free. for a musician, its playing at small venues with a small, intimate, family like crowd that loves you. there is nothing wrong with getting big and successful. but i think the term "sellout" is something like the person who started out with a small intimate, loving environment, where the fans basically got them going....and then that person, once they got successful, basically gave those people the middle finger and never looked back.

i was just thinking to myself, when i do get to the point where im successful and doing bigger shows and whatnot, i would still like to do the small "family vibe" events for free. because thats where i got started, thats where the love is, and its just a great vibe.

selling out is like saying fuck you to the family. you know?

[George Abraham]

ImagineFX is a sellout.

It's on the shelf but not in the middle of the month.

Painter magazine is not. They have to give the nice gentlemen a nice big staple of unsold mags back every new month.

It's just another term for "selling like hot cakes" turned into a word indicating a status.

Gong!! STATUS

What makes people a sellout therefore is when they get noticed for selling out, hence it becomes a status. However this word might get abused by marketing as in being wishfull that it has permanence.
"The rock show has only sellout artists", this might not be true at the given moment. Some people actually follow the media like that like sheep not knowing what's cool for themselves.


Some people could be called "sell outs" in the sense that they "sell" stuff and that's the basis of their success. Their art are not really any greater or even appreciated but they have such a good relationship with promoters that they get front page attention obviousely sneaking everything in promotionally they had to. Kinda like a famous mascott.(Hehehehe!!)

Like the whole style being altered to suit the new line of addis gear or something. Apple-ized or something.

Even though this could be seen as a bad thing, this too takes skill and it's an artform some artists might be really good at. Selling stuff, not really a new concept.

another way could be where artists work for free, they never have a game because they allways give themselves away and remain open, that way they could be a sell out, because they have nothing to sell, no game plan etc. Usually people who are teachers/learners and not really in it for money are like that. If they are good people get inpired by them and steal their ideas or follow trends they have helped develop or have fallen victim to.

You can even replace the word sellout in this powt with Smurf and it would still read. ;P

[Flashback]

Here's one example of a sellout, full article:

http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/aerosmith-maui.html

Aerosmith canceled their sold out performance September 26, 2007 concert at Hawaii. Over 10,000 ticket sold and fans turned down. Aerosmith claim they could not get their gear from Chicago in time for the island concert in Hawaii....but then...

Aerosmith snuck off instead to play in private for Toyota 6,000 car dealers and guests in the school's baseball stadium and pocketed $1 million. Way to screw over paying fans...

As long as the fans got their money back from the tickets. There's really no trouble.

WOW! Aerosmith sucks at making money!

What I would have done was to jack up concession prices 10 more dollars and set the prices of the ticket $200, $100, and $50 among waiting fans that would have made far more money then a measly $1.000.000.

[Chris Saksida]

A sellout for me is someone that made himself a reputation/image that stands for an ideology among their fans, and they follow him because of that; and then he changes it so he can appeal to a wider amount of potential clients, forgetting the values that made him or her famous, they stop being themselves to be what the public want them to be so they can sell more.

For me, the problem is when tha person that is being called a sellout has made a strong reputation about something, let`s say, punk rockers that end up appearing in tv ads or selling some product are sellouts, because they are against capitalism and then they are selling a product through mass media?

If you NEVER said you were against anything and never tried to make a reputation about anything, I won`t call you a sellout if you sell a product on TV.

So being a sellout for me is not about trying to make money but about being a hipocryte, if you want me to believe you are against something, and then you do the opposite for money, I will call you a sellout.

[Zazerzs]

ahh sellout.. when going to calarts the fine artists always used to call us (the character animation group)sellouts and we all laughed.

Through out time artists always worked for someone earning a commission and a living.

Today its seems that if you do such things you are a sell out, that art has to be made just for arts sake and who cares if you get money from it because its all about the art..

i believe that's a nice little fantasy world for people who make crap art but feel they need to justify why they are doing it, and trying to show superiority over those who want to make a living

so don't worry about the name calling, do want you want and see who's flipping burgers in a few years.

[BirdBirdBirdX3]

StephenJ Here check this out:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/religion/stories/031806dnrelkinkade.1f825bd9.html

http://substitute.livejournal.com/1295276.html


"Thomas Kinkade is famous for his luminous landscapes and street scenes, those dreamy, deliberately inspirational images he says have brought "God's light" into people's lives, even as they have made him one of America's most collected artists.

A devout Christian who calls himself the "Painter of Light," Kinkade trades heavily on his beliefs and says God has guided his brush — and his life — for the last 20 years.

"When I got saved, God became my art agent," he said in a 2004 video biography, genteel in tone and rich in the themes of faith and family values that have helped win him legions of fans, albeit few among art critics."

From 1997 through May 2005, Kinkade reaped more than $50 million in royalties from his prints and licensed product lines, according to testimony in the recently decided arbitration case. His images adorn air fresheners, night lights, teddy bears, toys, tote bags, pillows, umbrellas and La-Z-Boy loungers, which one retailer's ad describes as "something not merely to be acquired, but collected — like fine art itself.

however in 2007, a three-member panel of the American Arbitration Assn. ordered his company to pay $860,000 for defrauding the former owners of two failed Virginia galleries. That decision marks the first major legal setback for Kinkade, who won three previous arbitration claims. Five more are pending.

It's not just Kinkade's business practices that have been called into question. Former gallery owners, ex-employees and others say his personal behavior also belies the wholesome image on which he's built his empire.

In sworn testimony and interviews, they recount incidents in which an allegedly drunken Kinkade heckled illusionists Siegfried & Roy in Las Vegas, cursed a former employee's wife who came to his aid when he fell off a barstool, and palmed a startled woman's breasts at a signing party in South Bend, Ind."

I'm not sure how true some of these allegations are, they might be just after his money. But regardless I guess he's still a very successful businessman so what if he is a sell out. It just means he's a bit more focused on your wallet.

[Jovian M]

A professional that people envy.

[Elwell]

Thomas Kinkade has become enormously successful doing exactly the kind of work that he wants to. You can argue with his artistic principles on aesthetic or moral grounds, but you could never say he hasn't been true to them.

[riceface]

when u start drawing anime to appeal to a wider audience

[J Wilson]

Thomas Kinkade has become enormously successful doing exactly the kind of work that he wants to. You can argue with his artistic principles on aesthetic or moral grounds, but you could never say he hasn't been true to them.

Kinkade and James Gurney used to be roommates I believe. I seem to recall Gurney saying that back then Kinkade was interested in more gritty work. Of course artists evolve and their tastes change, but after hearing that I can't help but believe that Kinkade is indeed pandering to a very lucrative market.

Not that I'm suggesting there is anything wrong with that. If you can enjoy creating more than one kind of art, and one type in particular is fantasticly rewarding, I know which I'd be likely to spend my time on.

[Loathsome]

Well I don't think you could consider art to be related to "selling out" really.. (counting out fanart for fame, I don't like that). Because you know, it's all up to you. If it feels right to you, then it's fine.. Since art is usually pretty personal.

It's another thing with brands of toys and music when people do things because it got popular once and then they do it over and over.

I guess art could be related to it in a very weak grasp but.. yeah I dunno. I have mixed feelings about this.

[a.k.a.Brady]

What do they call a writer who doesn't get paid?

An amateur.

What do they call a writer who gets paid?

A professional.

In my opinion, if you're not making art to eventually make some money from it, it will never rise above a hobby.

Name one great artist in all of history that didn't get paid in some way or another?

Name one great artist that didn't promote himself, and his/her art, in some way, to make a living doing it?

Now, as far as sell outs are concerned, the next time you go to your job, that you hate and do something you hate for money, ask yourself if you're a sell out?

It's a term used by the ignorant wannabes, who are so jealous that they have to make up terms like "sell out" to comfort themselves when they go to their job that pays peanuts, instead of having the balls to fully commit to their own dream, and find a way to make it pay.

Whether you like someone's style, or subject matter is a whole different subject.

[velderia]

From 1997 through May 2005, Kinkade reaped more than $50 million in royalties from his prints and licensed product lines, according to testimony in the rec...
Holy shit. My brain. My braaaain...

[kab]

I like what Jason Newstead, former bass-player of Metallica said when someone asked what they thought about being labeled as sell-outs, can't remember the exact wording, but it was something to the effect of "We do sell-out, every ticket, every time."

I really can't stand any scene or person that is so full of itself that it looks down upon those who don't match their criteria for cool. You have a set of values, and you won't compromise to make a profit? More power to you and I admire that, but if you start talking shit about those that find a way to be successful doing art, even if they have perhaps mellowed their themes or whatever, then you are an idiot. People are free to do whatever the fuck they want without answering to you. For artists, success don't come knocking that often and anyone who decides to find their audience somewhere else when they see they aren't breaking through is just fine by me.