This must stop!!

[kelly x]

I know this is hard to watch and I hate to see anything to do with animal abuse period but, these mills need to be shut down, they breed in bulk, the animals are then sold to pet stores Pet Co is one of the vendors. This one is in Texas but there are many of these mills around the country. If you look most of the dogs are very similar thus in bread.
I took the video off due to not being able to watch it myself, short sum up of the video that the ASPCA put up is that the puppy Mills conditions for these future pets are completely appalling and the Mills should be shut down.
One by one the Mills are being shut down and the "owners" are going to jail!!
Here's the petition to sign in order to help the cause: Not the video.
If anyone is on face book you can use this link from the Humane Society to spread the word and try to make it a law to shut down the Mills:
http://apps.facebook.com/causes/peti.../31?m=843ac102

[kelly x]

I'm close to this topic because when I lived in NYC I reported and helped to closed down two pet stores that were selling very sick animals to unsuspecting customers, I can't even describe the conditions and these were retail stores. I called the DEP and they cracked down on these dumps and actually closed them down. One of the stores was a Pet Co on and the other one was a no name, in the displays I found one dead lizard that had been there until he was just a dried skin skeleton and three dead hamsters same cage in with other mixed animals.
If you buy a pet, make sure you know where it came from.
Rescue shelters are a wonderful resource for getting very grateful and loving pets, don't support the big chains who buy from these mills. Clamp down on breeding abuse.

[•Lindsay•]

My family bought a puppy recently… the people who sold her to us said she wouldn’t shed, and she does. She also has some internal physical deformity we weren’t informed off. A small piece of her nose is mysteriously missing. Her ears were absolutely filthy, and full of mites. I guess the moral of the story is, look at the dogs ears before you buy it? I dunno. I like my dog, and thankfully she has no personality issues, but I’m kind of mad at myself for financially supporting these people.

I've been to petco and seen the way the reptiles look... often they look like they are on the verge of death. They get away with it because most people don't know enough to know that reptiles aren't supposed to look like that. In recent years that isn't as much of a problem though, at least where I live.

[J Wilson]

It's criminal to be churning out that many puppies when dogs are being destroyed daily in shelters all over the country. These are largely intended to be disposable pets. Unfortunately unscrupulous people know that many people buy puppies on impulse because they are cute.

[Pierce9]

That's sick. Sometimes you can't even trust breeders either, if for some reason you have to have a pure breed make sure you meet the breeder and the dam and sire.

Rescue shelters are best, save a life.

Find out where tropical fish are from too some of them will come from countries where arsenic or dynamite are used to gather stock. This damages reefs and can turn them into dead zones.

[ArtZealot]

J Wilson pretty much echoes my thoughts. It's sad to see dogs put in such a terrible environment. The problem there is probably that laws arent hard enough on people who do that kind of stuff, and the second problem is just stupid heartless people trying to make a buck. Thats the world we live in, and is the kind of thing that justifies my belief in karma. Lets hope the bastards behind that get whats coming to them.

[kelly x]

The only pet I bought from a pet store was in LA, she was old and I saw her everyday when I passed the store, a year later she was still there and nobody bought her due to her age at that point. I went to buy her and the owner asked me if I would prefer to buy a kitten instead, I said no ass hole I want the older cat, no wonder she's been here over a year! Some people are not worthy to be around animals I guess!
Lindsey, Sorry about your dog but I'm glad she has a good home.

[s.ketch]

I really want to question the need and want to own a domesticated animal. Not because it's particularly abusive but it seems to have created this mess, and it generally serves little purpose these days.

Not many of us herd livestock, so there isn't a need for a dog there. Very few are blind and require a specially trained dog. The only major reasons I see for owning pets are tradition, feeling of ownership, and the companionship of another species.

The tradition is to buy your kid(s) a pet once they are old enough so that they have something to play with and it's supposed to teach responsibility. However, toys don't require food, toys can't be abused or neglected, and toys aren't alive. If you want to teach a kid responsibility, give them responsibility in a form that doesn't involve another living organism.

I think most of us grew up with pets, I sure did, and that's why we have a need to own animals. Then we do the same for our children, and the cycle continues. But it's really getting to the point where that's not a responsible thing to do anymore. I think any current adult-aged generation needs to start putting an end to this tradition. The benefits of a personal human-animal relationship is terribly underweight to the amount of harm coming to animals.

Not to be graphic, but hundreds of animals are being shoved into gas rooms daily. Not only is it a waste of life but a waste of resources that could be put to much better use. Puppy mills are very common. In my city, you can see all the abandoned and homeless animals running around on the streets. Cats hang outside of restaurants for food. It has become too big, to fast to handle responsibly.

Don't get me wrong, I know many of us on this site are animal lovers and responsible pet owners. But I fear those are becoming a minority very quickly. Regardless of your feelings towards pet companionship, you have to look at the larger picture and realize that the behavior needs to be seriously pruned.

These animals can't survive on their own, they rely on humans. So introduction back into the wild is nearly impossible. The only reasonable thing left to do is stop the demand for "new" pets. Only adopt. Take care of all the homeless and sheltered animals first. Once the load on animal shelters and pounds is relieved, then phase out this tradition of owning animals. Let the domesticated populations gradually die-out, naturally of course.

Let's put an end to that wasteful and horribly irresponsible branch of our economy and society. For the good of both the animals and humankind.

[Toobs]

Here in Holland these things you mentioned Lindsay are all pretty taken care of with our laws. Not saying it's perfect, because it isn't by far. We've got farms breeding dogs aswell, they are born with too long tongues, legs are to short.. Just to mention a few things. I hate how these animals are seen as simple throw away objects aswell!
I totally support what you're saying here Kelly. ;-)

[Baron Impossible]

I don't know what it's like over there but in the UK the penalties for animal cruelty are so weak as to be worthless. It's rare any prosecution is pushed through in the first place. This is a recent case - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217552/The-rescue-dogs-nursed-health-Kennel-boss-pleads-guilty-animal-cruelty-charges-involving-nearly-100-St-Bernards.html - a woman decided to go on holiday and leave 100 St Bernards without food or water. When they were discovered they were all near death, many skeletal and virtually rotting. One in 6 of the dogs died. The penalty she was given is one of the harshest of late, yet she receive only 18 weeks in jail (out in 9) and a ban on keeping dogs... for 10 years.

Having said that we're not as bad as some European countries I could name, when animal cruelty is a national passtime.

[•Lindsay•]

I don't understand why breeding new animals is considered a big societal evil by some people. Responsible breeders and responsible pet owners aren't to blame for abandoned cats and dogs. Some people are just dumb and if they didn't have dogs to abandon they would be abandoning chickens or something. (Yes, chickens are a pet now...)

My parents didn't buy me a dog when I was a kid to teach responsibility, they bought it because I wanted a dog. I don't see the problem there. If you really need a purely practical purpose for a dog, you get a lot of exercise walking it all over the place.

[kelly x]

Buck weisel, Well put and I agree, that is the main point of this discussion to me, over breeding, mistreatment and a general lack of regard for animal life!!! Most people should not have pets period, especially if they don't take the time to learn the first thing about taking care of them.
I think the tradition of buying a bunny during Easter for a four year old has stopped thankfully. But, none of the other buying of animals just to appease a child who is too young to care for themselves let alone an other living creature.
We have learned that neutering animals is a good thing to do so cats and dogs don't run wild, become homeless and starve to death???? This is not upheld enough at all!!
It is a good idea to actually limit owning and breeding domestic animals, shut down these breeding mills or at least uphold the laws and set high standards in which animals are bred.
Toobs and Baron Impossible, We have laws here and they are not upheld in general in most States. I found over 14 stray dogs and cats in the last three years that I then took to my home and placed into good homes, I am one person, imagine how many there are out there. Also one rabbit, which I kept. I stole one abused dog and placed him in a home far away too, (but I'm a freak about the mistreatment of kids and any animal.)
We have camp grounds where I live and every year some of the campers will for some ungodly reason get a cat or dog and then leave it there when they go home???!!!!!! I don't understand this and WTF anyways? Some kind of mascot?
•Lindsay, I think what they are saying is that you should get animals from shelters and the bad breeders should stop churning out sick puppies... We're all pretty much saying the same thing. Yes it's up to the pet owner after they get the pet to be responsible, but there aren't many responsible owners so the viscous cycle goes on and then the animal gets thrown out and homeless.

[Dusty]

These animals can't survive on their own, they rely on humans. So introduction back into the wild is nearly impossible. The only reasonable thing left to do is stop the demand for "new" pets. Only adopt. Take care of all the homeless and sheltered animals first. Once the load on animal shelters and pounds is relieved, then phase out this tradition of owning animals. Let the domesticated populations gradually die-out, naturally of course.

I support pretty much everything you say except that.
I've owned several dogs as a child and I own two cats now. My life would be significantly less enjoyable without the memories of my past friends and the love that is shared between myself and my cats now.
So while I fully support proper adoption, spaying and neutering, and shunning mills...I certainly won't take part in de-domesticating these animals. Happily, this "plan" is pretty unrealistic, of course, so I don't feel like much action needs to be taken place on my part in the first place.

-D

[WeAreLegion]

it's criminal to be churning out that many puppies when dogs are being destroyed daily in shelters all over the country. These are largely intended to be disposable pets. Unfortunately unscrupulous people know that many people buy puppies on impulse because they are cute.
their cuteness doth beith their undoing!
Bwahahaha!!!
But seriously though, that is some pretty fucked up shit going on there.

[Nrx]

I really want to question the need and want to own a domesticated animal.


happiness, they give it to us and we give it to them, and theres no downside when its done right.

i understand what your saying though, we take animals for granted, shit i think people take children for granted too, look at teenage pregnancy, was the issue this bad before contraceptives?

[smugbug]

Our two dogs were one day away from being "destroyed" when we adopted them from rescues. Crash (our border collie) was found via petfinder.com; as was Nubb (our nubby tailed heeler).

Also, beware of some breeders who will just take whatever dogs they can't "get rid of" to a shelter and that'll be it; which is what happened to Crash. Luckily, the border collie rescue person found it in herself to take just one more from the shelter and that little guy was our Crash.

So, rescues are another source for some wonderful fur and feathered companions.

The local Petco in our town has moved away from mills and has been featuring cats/dogs from the local humane society. So - not all chain pet stores are bad.

People just need to be aware that their actions - their wallets - have consequences. Choose where you adopt your cat, dog, parrot, ferret, etc. wisely.

[Krato]

wow thats pretty bad

[kelly x]

If anyone is on face book you can use this link from the Humane Society to spread the word and try to make it a law to shut down the Mills:
http://apps.facebook.com/causes/petitions/show/31?m=843ac102

[LORD M]

Oh god, this is horrible! Poor animals, I cannot see how anyone in their right mind would do something like this? I love animals, I just... can't bare to see things like this. Fuck.

[Oni Rem]

that was sad to watch :c

[s.ketch]

I support pretty much everything you say except that.
I've owned several dogs as a child and I own two cats now. My life would be significantly less enjoyable without the memories of my past friends and the love that is shared between myself and my cats now.
So while I fully support proper adoption, spaying and neutering, and shunning mills...I certainly won't take part in de-domesticating these animals. Happily, this "plan" is pretty unrealistic, of course, so I don't feel like much action needs to be taken place on my part in the first place.

-D

I didn't mean to discount the emotional benefits of owning a pet. A healthy relationship between man and animal can be a beautiful thing. But it's not really about that. There is a problem that those good feelings can't justify. It's almost selfish to let this problem continue just so one could continue those feelings.

We have to approach this problem with our intellect rather than our hearts. Otherwise we can't see the forest for the trees, sorry for the cliche. So let's look at it objectively.

1) Humans used selective breeding to virtually create domesticated animals. These animals have no niche. No natural predator, and lack the sharp survival instincts of wild animals. They can not hunt in order to feed themselves but must scavenge. Vast introduction, basically letting all of them free, into an ecosystem of which they don't belong would be bad. Humans have taken species and introduced them into non-native ecosystems before, it never turns out well.

2) At one time most of these animals had a purpose, but now they do not. Bull dogs were bred to fight bulls, pointers and retrievers were for hunting, collies were sheppards, etc. The vast majority of the population, at least in the US, do not own livestock. This renders most species useless in that sense.

3) Any pet owner can tell you how expensive food/supplies are. Why are we feeding animals we don't need? There are plenty of humans who could use that money. I'm not saying a human's life is particularly more valuable than a pet's. It just seems awfully wasteful. This is a side effect of growing up in US society. We unnecessarily create reasons to spend money. Dolls are a great example. Person owns a doll, they buy clothes for it. A toy has a change of clothes. They buy doll toys for it. A toy playing with toys. They buy fake food for it. Why is this acceptable? If people will invest money in something that can't love you back, imagine what they spend on something that can.

Look at it from an alien's point of view. Humans manufacture a living creature for no reason but to have it follow them around. They spend money to feed it, build it a house, and give it toys. Some even pay to cloth it. Go even further and you see people sending these creatures to daycare, spa's, and beauty salons. Why is owning pet more justified than owning a pet that you send to a spa? Other than it makes you feel good. You could say that the pet feels good too, but if the pet didn't exist it wouldn't feel bad.

And people may wonder why I care about what other people do what they want with their money. "They're living within their means, if they want to buy 50 dogs and can afford it, why does it matter?" It matters because the world is bigger than the one guy. In the US we are very individual-centric. "e pluribus unum" Out of many, one. It's on our money. Don't get me wrong, the attitude has been beneficial to us. But we also live in a society. There are times when the individual must work with and consider the many. I seriously doubt the founding fathers meant for us to disregard everyone else in the interest of ourselves.

So it goes back to "Why should you care? He can afford it." Society can't. Obviously society can't handle it. Regardless of how many are responsible pet owners, there is a larger amount of those who are not. If individuals disregard that, then the meme of pet ownership spreads and the problem continues.

We have made a mistake somewhere along the way. We must fix it as a whole. You're responsible because you're part of society. We're all responsible for the problem. So we gotta fix it and everyone can't go "Well it's not my problem."

4) Let's say that a responsible pet owner owns ten dogs for the full length of the dogs' lives. That's what? 10-20 years? At least every week of those 10-20 years there are, and lets be conservative, 50 dogs put down. In 15 years that's 780 dogs that are killed. Compared to ten? Simply being a responsible pet owner and not doing anything else doesn't seem to work out. Even if 50 dogs a month are put down, that's way too many.

5) And the most obvious that's been stated many times is the abuse. Starvation, poor living conditions, and abandonment. Female animals are impregnated and birth more litters than they probably would in a natural setting. Snakes are flushed down the toilet, and released into the wild. Cats roam the streets of the city I live in. You can literally go to any restaurant in a low-income neighborhood and see them hanging around for scraps. Pets are great when they're young and cute, but not so much when they're adults. Then it's not cute. So it's time to kick them out. We can just pick another up from the local mill.

For every market there is a sub market. There is a market for legal, healthy pets. People want to get in on that. The idea of business is to make more than you spend. Irresponsible people cut corners and produce as many goods as they can with as little as they can. The only difference in this instance is that the product is a living organism instead of cheap plastic. A normal business wouldn't make money. If you buy something cheap, it breaks, you don't buy again. You buy a puppy, "Hey! It's breathing and cute, must be healthy!" It doesn't break because it's alive so the business succeeds. Only people who know the score know when they're getting ripped off and when the animals are suffering. Our economy just isn't built for the welfare of living organisms that are bought and sold.

So either that branch of the economy needs to end, or there needs to be serious government regulation. Of course then half the country is in an uproar because they're afraid that puppy mill regulation = communism. Since it's an unnecessary market, why go through all the trouble? Why spend tax dollars and time waiting for congress to pass some slightly stricter but ultimately useless regulations to shut up animal rights activists without offending political conservatives? The people can do the job themselves. We have bigger problems for the government to focus on anyways.



So that's five logical reasons why owning pets is weird/useless/problematic. Compared to one reason for pet ownership: "Cause I love animals."

I really am sorry for writing a freakin essay on the topic, but I feel misunderstood. I figured the idea of not having pets would be hard for people. Especially those of us who grew up with pets and love animals. But it's not our place to own them. It was excusable a few hundred years ago. Even more so thousands of years ago when humans would flip a shit over anything shiny too. But we're moving out of infancy as a species and this is something that should be left behind. Yes they're soft, cute, cuddly, and they can love you back. But we're really doing much more harm to them and ourselves than we think. If we care, we will let them go.

[Toobs]

Haha well said mate ;-), essays for the win!

[Dusty]

I really am sorry for writing a freakin essay on the topic, but I feel misunderstood. I figured the idea of not having pets would be hard for people. Especially those of us who grew up with pets and love animals. But it's not our place to own them. It was excusable a few hundred years ago. Even more so thousands of years ago when humans would flip a shit over anything shiny too. But we're moving out of infancy as a species and this is something that should be left behind. Yes they're soft, cute, cuddly, and they can love you back. But we're really doing much more harm to them and ourselves than we think. If we care, we will let them go.

I appreciate the long post and I did read the entire thing, but I still disagree entirely. You can think that's "selfish" all you want and I respect your passion to the subject but it's definitely not something I will ever subscribe to.

[kelly x]

Hi Lord M and Oni Rem, I know it is a horrible thing to watch, I don't watch thinks like this normally they give me nightmares while I sleep! This video was put out by the ASPCA and at first I was shocked, then it dawned on me that if they had to go to such extreme measures and show the real down and dirty deal they must be desperate for change now.

Thanks Patricia :)

Now, BuckWeisel, I agree with every single thing you posted and in a perfect World none of this would have ever happened in the first place. The fact is that it is a real issue, animals live with us and it is realistic to ask people to get rid of their companions at this point in time, if ever. I'm with Dusty on this one. :)
As far as I'm concerned my pets own me at this point, hahaha.
We were born into this love of the domestic pet, as a kid I had three cats that slept around my head and feet, chickens that were pets with names, hamsters, rabbits and a duck who pooped every where, we loved them all and all of our animals from either shelters or people who could not take care of them.
And as I said I've relocated many pets into loving homes, so many people love animals!!
1)A good first step is helping to spread the word on stopping illegal breeding at these mills, close them down. (some people have already gone to jail, not just fines)
2)Making sure people know how to care for their pets and if they are up to it.
3)Neuter strays and place them in good homes.
4)Proper pet education.

[s.ketch]

Cheers Dusty. Didn't mean to sound inflammatory, I meant nothing personal by the selfish thing.

Kelly, I wasn't trying to imply that everyone should get rid of their pets immediately. I just meant a general and smooth phasing out of the act of owing a pet.

Step 1)Stop buying puppies or any young animal. If puppy mills or pet stores can' turn profit, they will have to close down.

Step 2)Only buy animals from shelters and pounds. This would knock out most of the homeless population and prevent needless deaths.

Step 3)Once shelters are virtually cleared out, just sit back and enjoy the rest of your pet's lives with each other. But once they die, hopefully of natural causes, then don't replace them.

And I agree with you Kelly on the spay/neuter thing. I actually didn't think about adding that in to my idea. So thanks for that.

But I have made my point and I'm really not interested in dragging out a discussion further than it needs to go. I'm cool with people having different opinions than I so I will stop making huge posts now :).

[KonnA]

Dogs of the same breed are all inbred. I didn't watch the video, but it's terrible (I know what kind of stuff you're explaining) I think everything is getting so goddamn commercial I didn't know pets where very bad, I didn't want them to be... Especially dogs.

[kelly x]

BuckWeisel, Thanks for reiterating things I wrote and making your point of view more clear.
#2 You don't buy from most shelters I think their free??
# 3 of your very small post, I don't think this is the answer in my life time anyways, there are always more animals who need a home and hopefully I can adopt more from the shelters.

[Cthogua]

Buckwiesel I do see where you're coming from, and in some ways I agree that animal ownership nowadays is difficult to really justify, however I think it goes beyond just simply "good memories." Especially with dogs. Dogs have been part of human society, as far as we can tell, since there's even been a society. They certainly pre-date any written methods of recording information. I think to a certain extent we've co-evolved, perhaps them more than us, but I do think we've developed a place in our psyche for animal companionship. I think the break down of those relationships and the respect born of those relationships and the further disrespect or even disgust for the natural world in general is yet another sign that human society is, on some level, self destructing. We've promoted a world view that declares everything is there to use as we wish, forgetting ancient traditions of respect which allowed for sustainability, and mitigated abuse. We have undreamed of knowledge these days, but almost no wisdom. Not to say that animal abuse is something that's new or never happened even in times where an animal was your livelihood. However these days all the consequences and repercussions have been removed, and legal systems are really reluctant to create any significant punishments for the abuse of animals. It gets even worse when that animal is part of an industry. You end up with people whose livelihood hinges around the living things being treated as a commodity. Like any business, their goal is to make money, and the most obvious way to do that is by doing everything as cheaply as they can get away with. I think this concept is killing us in a lot of ways actually, but that it's a component in the worsening fates of the animals upon who's backs our civilizations were literally built. So animals, some with the intelligence of a 3 year old human child are subject to conditions and treatment that can only be justified by imagining them as inanimate things.

I own a retired racing greyhound, and to be honest I think every dog I have from now own is probably going to be a racing rescue. They're truly amazing animals. Primal and prehistoric on one hand, and hilarious love bugs on the other. I don't think that coursing, or racing greyhounds is intrinsically bad, in fact the dogs love to run and chase things. The problem enters when money gets involved, and once again the animal becomes a business asset. As soon as they stop performing well, usually around 2 or 3 years old they're "retired." Prior to the adoption movement an estimated 20,000 greyhounds a year were "euthanized" which, once again to cut costs often involved simply bashing the dogs in the head or shooting them and dumping them in fields.

in 2002 the remains of approximately 3,000 greyhounds from Florida racetracks were discovered on the Alabama property of a former racetrack security guard who had been “retiring” unwanted greyhounds with a .22 rifle for more than 40 years.(3)

The Alabama greyhound massacre made it more obvious than ever that racing greyhounds are treated as “running machines,” produced in quantities that require the disposal of surplus dogs and dogs who are injured, old, or deemed too slow or no longer profitable.



Sickness and injuries—including broken legs, heatstroke, and heart attacks—claim the lives of many dogs before they are ever “retired.” Others—such as Randad, a dog in Alabama—are victims of track machinery. Randad was electrocuted when he jumped onto the lure rail and became entangled on the mechanical lure.(4) Another dog, Tune Me In, suffered for 30 minutes before being euthanized after he was badly cut by a mechanical lure at a Florida track.(5) During a three-year span, almost 500 greyhounds were injured while racing on Massachusetts tracks.(6) One Iowa track’s general manager defended greyhound casualties at his track by claiming that “top-notch dogs run harder and are more injury-prone.”(7)

Other dogs die during transport from one racetrack to another.

The same problems exist in the horse racing world. In fact another aspect of the industry recently came to my attention. "Nurse Mare Farms." (http://unnecessaryevils.blogspot.com/2008/08/nurse-mare-farms-industrys-other-dirty.html)
Nurse Mare Farms keep their mares pregant for the colostrum-Rich mothers milk for use on foals other than their own. The unwanted babies are byproducts deprived of their much need first taste of colostrum rich mother milk, and are usually immediately killed and discarded "or otherwise" disposed of.

The colostrum-rich first milk of the mother is reserved for the "better," more important foals the industry deems "more worthy" of attention. The colostrum is "banked" or the mares are used as surrogate mothers for the "privlidged foals" whos mothers cant be with them because they are being bred back right away or need to continue on in her career and not have to be burdned with the raising of a baby.

This pic is of my greyhound, Dobby. Something a little more cheerful.

[Sekino]

The local Petco in our town has moved away from mills and has been featuring cats/dogs from the local humane society. So - not all chain pet stores are bad.

Yeah, the pet store where I got my cat (9 years ago, and counting) had animals from the shelter. The all had their names age and background history beside the price tag. The only reason they were more expensive was that they were all already neutered/spayed and had their shots. Unfortunately, they closed down a couple of years later (I hope they were just moving).

As far as the pets v.s. no pets debate, I can't discount the real benefits and positive aspects of having animals around just because there are morons out there. You can say that about pets, food, sex, booze... there's always people who are irresponsible and inconsiderate and ruining it all for the rest of us (and Earth). That said, there really needs to be more accountability and severe punishment for animal cruelty.

Another issue that drives me crazy is people who de-claw their cats. I've met so many decent, smart people who still had no idea how painful and cruel it is to the cat. Thankfully, it has been banned in some countries but only partially in North America. If you can't deal with a few claw marks do NOT get a cat. Besides, cats don't just compulsively destroy all your furniture if they are healthy and entertained properly.

[s.ketch]

Buckwiesel I do see where you're coming from, and in some ways I agree that animal ownership nowadays is difficult to really justify, however I think it goes beyond just simply "good memories." Especially with dogs. Dogs have been part of human society, as far as we can tell, since there's even been a society. They certainly pre-date any written methods of recording information. I think to a certain extent we've co-evolved, perhaps them more than us, but I do think we've developed a place in our psyche for animal companionship. I think the break down of those relationships and the respect born of those relationships and the further disrespect or even disgust for the natural world in general is yet another sign that human society is, on some level, self destructing. We've promoted a world view that declares everything is there to use as we wish, forgetting ancient traditions of respect which allowed for sustainability, and mitigated abuse. We have undreamed of knowledge these days, but almost no wisdom.

I certainly agree with most points you brought up. Especially the second half of your post. But the above got me thinking again. I don't mean to hijack the thread and make it about the sociology of owning pets, so again, I apologize.

I'm a firm believer that in the realm of nature vs nurture, most of human behavior comes from the latter. Owning a pet, from my point of view, is just another behavior that people are taught by society. No different from a number of other traditions or values. If people can learn to domesticate animals and it becomes integrated into the very fabric of the human psyche, then so could not having pets. Not having pets seems unnatural because we live in a world of pets. If there were no pets, I am sure having pets would be surreal too.

I don't think having a pet develops a healthy relationship with nature. If that wasn't part of your point, please forgive me for inferring. If having a pet caused people to respect nature, then obviously this problem would be a lot smaller. It's whatever they are taught while they own a pet that teaches them something. A kid is given a puppy and then they are taught how to treat it. If you give a puppy to a kid, and don't give the kid any instruction, the puppy will suffer alright. It takes the responsibility of a parent to teach a child to respect nature.

And to go a bit further, I think having a pet is considerably more unnatural than not owning one. It asserts man's dominion over the animal kingdom instead of participation. No animal on earth "owns" other animals, except humans. We interfered with nature by selectively breeding these species, we don't, can't and shouldn't let them be a true part of the natural world because that would be even more of a negative impact on Earth.

Plus I think humans are what we are. We, ourselves, aren't as close to nature as we used to be, and that's fine. It's natural for us to be this way because evolution seen fit to equip us with intelligence. It's not our destiny as species to live like an animal. That doesn't mean we have an excuse to destroy that of which we are slowly evolving from though.

On a completely unrelated note, I think ancient humans were literally insane. There is little to be proud of or that we should keep in-touch with. I am always amazed at this phenomenon of romanticizing our ancestors. We are incredibly proud of ourselves and I will be surprised to ever see a piece of media that doesn't reflect that. Watch any historical documentary, especially ones about Egypt. Humanity's past is anything but rose-tinted.

[kelly x]

Cthogua, Thank you for the post and info, very important, these dogs are amazing pets my friends rescued two and they are just the way you described, the race horses are being adopted too or did you say that.
Seninko, I agree that de-clawing is horrible, thankfully many people feel the same about it.
Buck Wiesel, Our ancestors were "insane"and wild for the most part but they were relaying an our base animal instinct I believe, we have slowly evolved but thankfully still have some of the instincts left in us. Maybe it's good and somewhat natural evolution for animals to have evolved with us in order to survive, I do agree that we did this to the animal and sped up the process which is wrong. But think about it, if the land is quickly going away and resources too, their wild counterparts could at some point go away also?? and we will be left with the domestics who we will co habituate with and learn from in order to keep us grounded, nature and nurture, in a micro arena of the new World.
I love off topic!! But it all goes together.

[s.ketch]

But think about it, if the land is quickly going away and resources too, their wild counterparts could at some point go away also?? and we will be left with the domestics who we will co habituate with and learn from in order to keep us grounded, nature and nurture, in a micro arena of the new World.
I love off topic!! But it all goes together.

I mean, yeah you could say that and use that as pro for continuing the cycle. However, I think that could actually be an argument against this issue. The land and natural resources aren't going away on their own. Once again, it's another problem caused by the irresponsibility of man kind. If we understood our place in nature a bit better, oil shortages, water shortages, mineral resource shortages and shrinking amounts of wilderness wouldn't be a problem.

If nature wasn't being tampered with then there wouldn't be a need to preserve the remnants of any species. Aside from the natural cycle of species dying out that is. Why make it easier for humanity to continue being irresponsible by letting them have a substitute for nature, such as pets? I don't mean to offend those of us who have gained quite meaningful relationships form pet owner ship, but it's far from being truly in-tune with nature. I mean, Splenda sure is sweet but it's not sugar nor will it ever be sugar. It's artificially created to simulate the taste and consistency of sugar. Just as owning a pet is a simulation of being close to nature.

I'm cool with needed domestication like livestock, even though that falls in the category of resources more so than pets in the traditional sense. I like to eat chicken and sometimes beef. But you all know my opinion by now about household pets.

We live in plastic boxes, drink water from tanks and bottles. Our food is gathered for us, and sometimes pre-cooked. We get in a metal box that can go faster than any animal on Earth to take us anywhere we need to go. Instead of working for food or to survive in the truest sense, we work for currency. Which happens to be yet another simulation we have created to replace "Hunt and gather."

I know that sounds like I am quite sour on the topic, but really I accept that lifestyle. Our natural born gifts allowed us to come to this point and there isn't much to be ashamed about. But we need some coarse adjustment. Since we're well on our way from a separation from nature, again that's not a bad thing necessarily, we need to remove our impact. As people have shown us, we can't really have it both ways. It just creates too much subconscious confusion. We're at war with ourselves, a battle between what we were and what we have become. One has to win. Some people think we should return to our roots and revert back to nature. Some say let's put a shopping mall on every street, build a city in ever forest, and fuck it all.

I think we should cope with our past, there is no going back. Not now. But we can move towards an environment friendly future and be more human than human.

[kelly x]

Buck Wiesel, This is what I love about open arena forums, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and topics can wonder off subjects for days, I thought you may have something interesting to say about the end of the World as we know it, ah ha... this is key, I knew you had it in you... If we understood our place in nature a bit better, oil shortages, water shortages, mineral resource shortages and shrinking amounts of wilderness wouldn't be a problem.
If this could really happen may I keep my lovely pets, yes, thanks!!! I'm inspired to save more too.
I really like what you said here: I think we should cope with our past, there is no going back. Not now. But we can move towards an environment friendly future and be more human than human.
I'm going to interpret this in my own way, even though we have a different way of looking at some topics I agree with many of the things you've posted. Good mind.

[Peter Coene]

I think we should take up eating dogs and cats, like they do in some Asian countries. That way instead of over-breeding leading to nothing more than extermination of all of those excess dogs and cats instead they'd be put to good use as nourishment.

[kelly x]

Peter, thank you for your input and dinner is on you, I know your since of humor and how many days you get snowed in in Co. you go ahead and do what you have to do Peter, bon appetite to you. :)
I think we should take up eating dogs and cats, like they do in some Asian countries. That way instead of over-breeding leading to nothing more than extermination of all of those excess dogs and cats instead they'd be put to good use as nourishment.

[s.ketch]

My grand prediction for humanity is this:

Humanity will not cease to exist any time soon. We will scrape by the resource shortage, probably because some scientists will figure out something right at the last moment. Our population will rise exponentially once there is no lack of resources. Everything that could be interpreted as bad about modern society will only grow. More commercialism, more materialism, more nationality (although in a different form). The world will never really get any better or worse, not noticeably anyways. We will just be content with getting by. Never excelling and never breaking down. Humanity will continue on and colonize other planets. No 2012, no mayan gods, no jesus returning, no comet/supervolcano/planet X or black hole will end us.

Of course we could prevent such a future, but I seriously doubt there's much we could do about it now. I still hope something big happens that completely changes the game though.

[kelly x]

BuckWeisel, Wow what a boring prediction!! Come on spice it up laddie!! Magic, Doom anything!!! BuckWeisel! Your letting me down now. Just the same every day, hmmm, Not for me!

[kelly x]

I took the video down because I couldn't stand it!! They have arrested more people because of this campaign since I posted!!
Here's the petition to sign to shut down puppy mills and help out the cause:
From the Humane Society to spread the word and try to make it a law to shut down the Mills:
http://apps.facebook.com/causes/peti.../31?m=843ac102

[Aphotic Phoenix]

But think about it, if the land is quickly going away and resources too, their wild counterparts could at some point go away also?? and we will be left with the domestics who we will co habituate with and learn from in order to keep us grounded, nature and nurture, in a micro arena of the new World.

Tropical fishkeeping has given me more respect for aquatic life than any visit to a natural stream or public aquarium ever has. It made me look more critically at the products I was using and flushing down my drains. It made me more active in efforts to clean up local water ways, and to encourage others to work towards responsible fish keeping practices.

While I agree that we should not falsely consider domesticated animals to be a true "link" to nature, I do believe that for some it does provide a crucial gateway towards feeling empathy toward other species. If we had no "pet" animals, and only consumed them for food...how would we begin to view animals as a whole? Personally it seems to me that more people view animals as companions now vs historically where animals were simply tools for labor.

[Peter Coene]

Peter, thank you for your input and dinner is on you, I know your since of humor and how many days you get snowed in in Co. you go ahead and do what you have to do Peter, bon appetite to you. :)

I'm glad you approve... and, btw, the chihuahua was delish!

[the_jos]

If we had no "pet" animals, and only consumed them for food...how would we begin to view animals as a whole? Personally it seems to me that more people view animals as companions now vs historically where animals were simply tools for labor.

Simply tools for labor? Rather expensive tools that require a lot of 'maintenance'.
Sure, that's not companionship but those people would not just throw an animal away.

The problem of people who consider animals as food is not solved by pet animals. Deer meat is not the same as dead Bambi. It's meat.
Same for rabbit. Do people think the piece of meat on their plate is Thumper? I think not! They don't even consider it the same kind of meat as their pet rabbit.

The only way people will view animals as whole again is making them pick the animal they want to eat later that day/week. Here we have Justin, a 15 day old male chicken. You like him on your plate this evening? Oh, Bertha here. Nice 2 year old cow, good meat. See how lovely her eyes are? You can eat her meat next week, which piece do you like?
This would also raise the price of meat to normal hights. Meat is cheap, too cheap. Thanks to government fundings.
It would make people consider eating meat or not, by viewing the actual animal and by judging the price. Mankind can eat meat less than 7 days a week. Other more healthy meals are available but are now considered too expensive because meat is cheap.

So much for my opinion on this subject.

[Peter Coene]

The problem of people who consider animals as food is not solved by pet animals. Deer meat is not the same as dead Bambi. It's meat.
Same for rabbit. Do people think the piece of meat on their plate is Thumper? I think not! They don't even consider it the same kind of meat as their pet rabbit.

The only way people will view animals as whole again is making them pick the animal they want to eat later that day/week. Here we have Justin, a 15 day old male chicken. You like him on your plate this evening? Oh, Bertha here. Nice 2 year old cow, good meat. See how lovely her eyes are? You can eat her meat next week, which piece do you like?
This would also raise the price of meat to normal hights. Meat is cheap, too cheap. Thanks to government fundings.
It would make people consider eating meat or not, by viewing the actual animal and by judging the price. Mankind can eat meat less than 7 days a week. Other more healthy meals are available but are now considered too expensive because meat is cheap.

So much for my opinion on this subject.
wait, why is thinking of animals as meat a "problem?"

As for your idea of people picking out their animal, its exactly what happens at county fair livestock auctions, which are a great payoff for the 4-H kids that raised the animals. And I can tell you from experience that the meat is much better.

Heck, as for the deer and rabbit scenarios you give; the majority of people who eat deer and rabbit not only see the animal before it is killed, but they're the ones that kill it, bleed it, gut it, skin it, tan the hide (possibly using the brains), cut it up, and grind some parts up to make burgers or stuff into the intestines and make sausage.

[kelly x]

the_jos, I agree meat is cheap and therefore people eat more, I think the prices are already going up because of crack downs on the "producers" conditions and recent tainted meats and diseased livestock. So hopefully people will vary their menus soon and as you said it's healthier anyway.
Peter, Most people don't name their meals before the eat them is all. People who hunt for food don't generally waist any part of the animal they kill for food. In my area deer are so over populated that they are susceptible to disease, hunters are necessary to keep the population normal. The laws are very strict and the hunters strictly govern each other.
Back on subject, 50 of my face book friends have signed the petition against these puppy mills, more signatures to ban illegal mills are needed.

adelaideroofing, As long as they are not buying from illegal sources, the point is not how nice the pet store is to the pet, the point is that many stores buy from illegal animal breeding farms/mills.

[kelly x]

I put the wrong link last time to sign against puppy mills:
http://apps.facebook.com/causes/71?m=085363e0

[Wooly ESS]

This is a good discussion, and I'm a little sorry that I've come to it late. I have not viewed the video clip submitted by Kelly X, because I know I will find it disturbing. However, I have seen others like it and I know what it's about. I also thank BuckWeisel for his essays. Although I don't agree with everything he has put forward, he has left much food for thought.

Firstly, let me identify myself as a dog fancier. My breed of choice is the English Springer Spaniel. (The letters ESS in my user name are not just a random collection of letters:rolleyes:). The Springer Spaniel is no better or worse than any other breed; it is just the breed I have fallen in love with, and remained in love with for the past 35 years.

The ESS is a hunting dog, and contrary to BuckWeisel's arguments, I breed, train and use my dogs for hunting. Their lives are centred around the purpose for which they were created. They were bred to work hard, and they do work hard. Not everyone agrees with hunting, but that is another argument for another day. When you work with a working animal, you come to realize that together you are a team that is more effective than either one of you could ever be alone. Each of you contribute senses and abilities that are almost beyond the comprehension of the other. When in the hunting field, I consider myself an equal partner with my dog. Yes, I feed them, shelter them and drive them around, but they are born knowing more about how to find game than any human will ever learn in a lifetime. It has been thus since humans and wolves first cast their lot together in the dawn of time.

Now as far as breeders are concerned, I share Kelly X's distain for puppy mills. I have bred and sold ESSs, and I can guarantee breeding dogs in a reputable fashion is not a money making proposition. It is a labour of love. Any operation selling puppies commercially for profit has to be suspect, because the market will not support profitable prices without cutting unacceptible corners. As someone has suggested, buy from known breeders, and visit them and their kennels before you buy.

If you are not interested in a registered pure bred dog, then get a rescue dog. Lord knows there are enough unwanted dogs in the world to supply everyone's desire for a pet. If you prefer a mixed breed, there is no need to buy from a puppy mill or a pet store, when the animal shelters are filled to capacity.

Now it looks like I am writing an essay, but I must close with one last comment. Every species of animal is endowed with its own special set of attributes that allow it to sense the world around it in its own way. Domesticated animals still retain many of these senses and by attuning our own senses to what they are absorbing we can expand our own understanding of the world around us. In that way, I believe pets ARE a link to the natural world around us. I live in a remote rural area, and have working animals as pets, so maybe I'm biased, but I don't think so.

Buck Weisel hints that we are on an evolutionary path to a higher life form. I beg to differ. I think we are just clever enough to have built the trap, but not clever enough to get out of it. For the next evolutionary step the torch will be passed to another arrangement of DNA. Cockroaches? Magpies? Keith Richards?

[kelly x]

Awesome EES and best regards to you and your respect for the working pet!! I have to quote you here:
If you are not interested in a registered pure bred dog, then get a rescue dog. Lord knows there are enough unwanted dogs in the world to supply everyone's desire for a pet. If you prefer a mixed breed, there is no need to buy from a puppy mill or a pet store, when the animal shelters are filled to capacity.

Now it looks like I am writing an essay, but I must close with one last comment. Every species of animal is endowed with its own special set of attributes that allow it to sense the world around it in its own way. Domesticated animals still retain many of these senses and by attuning our own senses to what they are absorbing we can expand our own understanding of the world around us. In that way, I believe pets ARE a link to the natural world around us. I live in a remote rural area, and have working animals as pets, so maybe I'm biased, but I don't think so.
And Keith Richards may look scary but he still rocks :)
EES, ees, EES

[acb]

well there are so many wrong things in the world specially concerning animals and stuff and if you want to see a truely shocking /worth of investing your time in trying to stop it ,then you should watch this movie (it contains some really ....disturbing ....images of animal abuse )and if you dont wanna see the really disturbing one of them all then stop watching after the part where they show the animals being cookced alive (you dont see them but you see the bag that they are in)

http://tinypic.com/m/2d2st2/3

and you should sign the petition against that sort of stuff
http://www.ptroa.co.il/petitionmovie/petition-English.php

just for the record: i was never an active animal rights person but after ive watched this movie then first i couldnt sleep very well for a few days and second it is now a subject which i really pay attention to and not like befor it now means alot to me.

sorry if im out of the topic here but i guess it has something to do with animals and things that gotta stop ~_~

[kelly x]

ACB, thanks for posting and I can't watch it. But so glad you've turned the corner. I even took my video down... but glad your concerned. I signed the petition. Sick bastards!!!

[s.ketch]

The ESS is a hunting dog, and contrary to BuckWeisel's arguments, I breed, train and use my dogs for hunting. Their lives are centred around the purpose for which they were created. They were bred to work hard, and they do work hard. Not everyone agrees with hunting, but that is another argument for another day. When you work with a working animal, you come to realize that together you are a team that is more effective than either one of you could ever be alone. Each of you contribute senses and abilities that are almost beyond the comprehension of the other. When in the hunting field, I consider myself an equal partner with my dog. Yes, I feed them, shelter them and drive them around, but they are born knowing more about how to find game than any human will ever learn in a lifetime. It has been thus since humans and wolves first cast their lot together in the dawn of time.

....

Buck Weisel hints that we are on an evolutionary path to a higher life form. I beg to differ. I think we are just clever enough to have built the trap, but not clever enough to get out of it. For the next evolutionary step the torch will be passed to another arrangement of DNA. Cockroaches? Magpies? Keith Richards?

Thanks for replying. As your dogs serve the purpose they are bread for, you weren't really included in my "list of people who shouldn't have domesticated animals" I don't have a problem with all pets, just about 98-99% of them. Seeing eye dogs, pets that help other disabled people, and blue collar dogs are alright. But I am willing to be that you, Wooly, and the others on my okay list are a very small minority when everyone is taken into account.

Pitbulls are a great example of dogs without a role. Unless they are Michael Vick's pitbulls. Protection doesn't warrant the need for a living organism imho. A gun would pay for itself if you ever needed to use it. If a person is anti-gun then they could just get a nice security system and insurance. Of course now I am talking off point again.

Wooly, on the last thing you said: I have never disagreed with someone so much about something before on these forums. Not in a negative way though, I mean no insult by that. I fully believe we are capable of getting out of the trap. We invented the word trap, and the concept of traps, and it's our trap so we have an advantage here. It's never too late to change. Well, unless we're all dead. But we're not yet, so we still have time. It would take a severe change, but we can do it.

[nauvice]

There's a documentary called Earthlings, narrated by Joaquin Phoenix... really the most disturbing animal cruelty documentary I've seen. I was depressed for a few days, became a vegan for a long while. Even now I still limit my consumption of meat and am more conscious/empathetic to animals (whether they even have feelings/soul or not, which I guess is still a moot subject). Im not sure if its the same that acb posted; cant say I would ever watch it again, or watch any video like it, so Im reluctant to check hah.

great thread to raise awareness, I dont own a dog now since I know I wouldnt be able to take care of it properly, but in the future I definitely will and now I feel more educated on how I should go about doing so

[Wooly ESS]

...It's never too late to change....

BuckWeisel, I'm rooting for you to be right on that one!

And, yes, Kelly X - Keith Richards ROCKS!!!!

[kelly x]

BuckWeisel!! Haha, I sense a 2% change in you for the better and I agree we invented the trap so we can get out of traps, you can always chew your limb off, ouch, but we can get out of any trap placed in front of us. Vick can suck it, but i do give him credit for fessing up, more than some Presidents have done in the past. If you do something bad just admit it!!
zwarrior, I think I tried to watch this Phoenix tape and couldn't, anything in moderation is OK. Thanks for reading the thread, I do hope it does raise awareness in some small way.
ESS, Keith totally rocks, I saw him in broad daylight and nearly fell off the curb, scary, ugly and cute at the same time!! He ROCKS!!!!!

[Wooly ESS]

Keith Richards - Cute!!??!!

There's hope for me yet!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85aCbRjtV9w&feature=related

[kelly x]

I've never quoted myself but... scary, ugly and cute at the same time!!

[tobbA]

Everybody should keep spiders as pets. After all they're really good at keeping other pests away. And don't keep them in glass boxes either...

I think companion pets are evolution at it's core. After all they say, 'if there is a niche to be filled some animal will evolve to fill it' and even if that niche so happens to be the snuggle baby of a skinny super model at least that animal has some sort of meaning...

[Flake]

The "companion" thing should not be easily dismissed.

Humans have kept dogs for millenia, people with pet dogs tend to live longer, less stressful lives. Except for the pooping.

In the future they will allow us to spot terminators.

Dogs rule, all evidence to the contrary has been faked by cat apologists.