You shouldn't use digital to learn?

[Ivory_Oasis]

I don’t understand why my teachers are so adamant on assignments being done with traditional means. I have tried to keep an open mind, and look for some hidden reason… but I simply can’t think of one.

Using ellipse guides? Using tracing paper? Using rulers? Being forced to shade with a pencil (or later, markers)?

When I asked my figure drawing teacher why we couldn’t use digital for our homework still-life assignment… he said because he “wanted us to really draw it”.

I don’t understand.

I can see how it might be easier to cheat with digital (take a picture and run a few filters over it to make it look painterly)…. But you can cheat with traditional too (just trace over everything on a lightbox).

In the real world, when I get a job (I am aiming at a character concept artist), I wont use a pencil or markers or try to render out a picture with lengthy advanced graphite shading techniques…. I will be using photoshop. Sure, I might make sketches on a pad of paper to get some ideas when at a meeting or on the fly (I can do that now), but when it comes to more serious work I will be running to my wacom and computer so I can really turn out material quickly.

I want to learn how to use photoshop! I want to spend my time doing assignments in the program so I can figure out workflows and tricks to make things move faster (which will actually be helpful for me, so I can apply it to my work!). Spending an hour figuring out a new way to apply graphite to a large section of a piece of paper for even shading will never ever be used by me outside of the demands of my teachers (so, why bother learning it? Why not spend that energy figuring out and becoming comfortable with a new hotkey in photoshop?).

What am I missing? Am I just being a “know it all” and there is actually some type of secret benefit to working traditionally? If so, what is it and why? I just can’t figure it out! I’m trying to keep an open mind on the entire thing as I work to get better… but I want to spend my energy on the most efficient things that will translate into my career and make me a stronger artist.

It is also curious to note that my 2 teachers who demand assignments be done traditionally are the ones who do not work digitally and are very uncomfortable with a tablet and photoshop… one doesn’t even use email, the other has much difficulty just drawing a box freehand. It really doesn’t help their credibility when they try and tell me traditional mediums are better….

[Noah Bradley]

That's a really good question. The standard approach is to start traditional, then move to digital. But then again, there are artists out there who started with digital and are doing just fine.

I'll take a stab at answering though: traditional lets you worry more about the image and less about the medium. There's isn't that much to learning how to move a pencil around, but there's a tremendous amount you can do with just a pencil. Once you can create good imagery with one medium, that knowledge will carry over to other mediums, like digital.

I have a feeling, though, that we start traditionally because that's the way things have always been. I wouldn't be surprised if in the coming decades we see a shift to students starting out digitally.

[Eric Young]

If you don't learn to draw first with a pencil then you'll never be able to paint in photoshop. Learning to pick up a pencil and paper and sketch out something is the fundamental starting point of all artists. Your teacher probably doesn't want you to mess with digital at the moment because in photoshop it's more about painting figures not drawing them. And painting is a whole different genre of problems and solutions then drawing.
You seem to be at the beginning of your art education and your just learning the fundamentals. Most of the time your not learning how to use a pencil but learning how to correctly see the object ( be it a figure of a still life ) and translate what you see on to the paper. Your teachers are probably just trying to teach you that much right now and if they allowed you to mess with digital art then they would be adding tons more complex problems to the simple basics that your trying to figure out now.

[Eric Young]

By the way, you should start posting in your sketchbook, it'll help you greatly start to learn. There are hundreds if not thousands of great artist and student artists on this site every day. If you make a sketchbook we can all help you learn and point out what you may need to work on to become a better artist.

[vineris]

There's a lot to be said for starting with traditional.

A pencil is analog, and at this point it's still more sensitive and responsive than most tablets. Most people are familiar with using one. If you screw up a pencil drawing, you know that the problem is you, not the software or bad settings. Pencils are cheap and easily available, you don't need to set up a lab at the school or buy expensive software to use them. They are easily replaced, unlike power supplies and motherboards and will never eat 50 hours of work due to a virus. They are also much more portable than your average computer. It's easy to take them everywhere and sketch with them, giving beginners much more practice than they would normally get.

Besides, you have no idea what you'll end up using and liking in the end. In a few years, you may get into graphite just so you don't have to be chained to the computer for 16 hours a day. It's all "Digital and I are BFFs!" until the carpal tunnel sets in.

[J Wilson]

It sounds like there is a large amount of either ignorance or bias against digital with those instructors. Most everything you learn in traditional art you can learn with digital, although there will be some tempting shortcuts that you'll have to have some will power to avoid (such abusing the color picker). I'd say the reasoning they are giving are not very compelling, BUT that does not mean that there aren't some compelling reasons. There are.

While I'd say there is nothing wrong with digital, there is still a lot to be gained from doing traditional work as well. If you are looking for a full time position somewhere, having traditional experience is often a "plus". There is also a lot to be said for working in a variety of media, whether digital or traditional. Different media needs different approaches, and you never know where you'll get one of those "aha!" moments. One thing most artists heavily recommend is to get a variety of experiences. Learn from different sources, and you'll avoid artistic ruts and plateaus more easily.

This isn't a "digital is bad, and traditional is good" argument. It's a "variety is good" argument.

[JJacks]

I don't know why you think shading with a pencil will not benefit you at all in the future. The simplest way to learn about light, contrast, textures, edges, proportion, and such is to sit down with a pencil and some paper and try. So I myself don't understand your need to go into Photoshop directly. If you can draw on paper, the transition into digital will be smoother and less time consuming. You will be able to focus on how to use the program to achieve what you want instead of asking yourself "how do I draw and use this program?"

[Elwell]

Teachers can only teach what they know. If they're not familiar/comfortable with digital work, then they won't be able to fully critique it, or help you with any issues you may have with it. Your choice is either play by their rules and get the most that you can out of these classes, or drop them and find teachers that can teach you what you want.

Personally, If the teachers are at all competent at what they can teach, I'd go with option#1.

[Helaine]

Shading with pencil is very beneficial for practicing (at least for me)

I don't think I'd draw trees/people for life drawing practice using laptop and a tablet.....


I definitely don't think that you should MASTER it, but having shading skill with pencil is very handy :)

[darkwolf29a]

I have done some very strange projects on paper, recently. One reason is that you can't fake being able to draw a circle, elipse, or work with perspective. Digital is good for learning, I won't argue that. But, I have found that anything I have learned via sketchpad and pencil, I can use in Illustrator or Photoshop. The difference, for me, is that I can also go outside and sit on a park bench and draw. That has been very help with my perspective and drawing classes, where they do not just want to see still life images, but landscapes, nature, etc.

I would go with Elwell on this. If you are learning from your teachers...stick with it. If you aren't, you've got a bad teacher and are in need of a different one.

[Pezz]

THis leads me to wonder - are there any concept artists actually doing things traditionally? Or do time constraints limit that?

[Noah Bradley]

THis leads me to wonder - are there any concept artists actually doing things traditionally? Or do time constraints limit that?

Jason Manley said once that graphite drawings are still one of their main mediums for concept art (that and digital). I don't think they do an acrylics/oils for concept art, though. Simply too time consuming, I should think.

[Pezz]

Jason Manley said once that graphite drawings are still one of their main mediums for concept art (that and digital). I don't think they do an acrylics/oils for concept art, though. Simply too time consuming, I should think.

Well I mean for instance, I would think one could create some neat concept designs in conte or pastel on toned paper just as well. However for full color conceptual illustrations, I should think digital would be the way to go now with crazy deadlines

[Eric Young]

Yeah I'm pretty sure they still use some traditional mediums in concept art, on the bonus DVD with star wars episode 2 or 3 i forget, it had a small clip of the art department and the concept artists working on making concepts for the movie. They showed some artists using prismacolor markers to quickly flesh out concepts. So i'm pretty sure it's a mixture of both traditional and digital

[Ivory_Oasis]

traditional lets you worry more about the image and less about the medium. There's isn't that much to learning how to move a pencil around, but there's a tremendous amount you can do with just a pencil.

The medium of pencil is actually a lot more restrictive to me than digital is. In digital, I do a lot of black and white drawings...working up values slowly, kind of like you would a pencil. But, digital works both ways very easily, I can lighten up my values with a little bit of white on a very low flow brush, or i can darken it a tiny tiny amount, or sample the shade right next to it and match the shades perfectly...with pencil, trying to pull off graphite with a kneaded eraser makes spots and shading details is pain and very very slow.

Something as simple as shading a sphere I could do in photoshop in a few seconds...with a pencil, its slow and just a lot of work to simply achieve even shades.

I know I dont know how to use a pencil. I haven't a clue on the "right" pencil hardness i should be using or how to use the kneaded erasers to avoid spots or how to use blending stumps correctly.... I don't really care about knowing the details of the medium though, the assignment is to understand shadows, not understanding how to get the best even shading with graphite (I even hear people use powdered graphite to cover larger areas? its just so much trouble and so messy).

So, for me, digital lets me worry less about the medium. Digital I can just go in and grab a hard round brush...then adjust the softness / flow / size as I go along and that is all I need (don't even use eraser, I just white over it).


Your teacher probably doesn't want you to mess with digital at the moment because in photoshop it's more about painting figures not drawing them.

My teacher said this also. He said you just can't "sketch" in photoshop.

But, I don't understand that. I sketch in photoshop all the time! I set my brush to pressure sensitivity for size, opacity, and flow...then set the flow down to 30ish percent and sketch. Get the same sketchy feeling that I do with a pencil and I can play around just like I do with a pencil.

Sure, you can also increase the size of the brush and start painting, but that is something different (and a lot of times just sketching it out with lines is a lot faster / clearer for getting ideas down). But, again, I can do it digital...why do people think you can't draw in photoshop?


You seem to be at the beginning of your art education and your just learning the fundamentals. Most of the time your not learning how to use a pencil but learning how to correctly see the object ( be it a figure of a still life ) and translate what you see on to the paper.

I have been drawing for almost 2 years now. So, still tonsss to learn, but I have a little fundamentals already from my own efforts (i think). Some of my things are at www.ivoryoasis.com , and it was all digital...from day 1... I actually wouldn't have been so interested in art if I couldn't do it digitally (I have a thing about getting my hands dirty hehe).

Translating what you see is the same digitally or with pencil and paper....you are learning how to see, it doesnt matter if you do that on the back of a dead fish with a knife...

A pencil is analog, and at this point it's still more sensitive and responsive than most tablets. Most people are familiar with using one. If you screw up a pencil drawing, you know that the problem is you, not the software or bad settings. Pencils are cheap and easily available, you don't need to set up a lab at the school or buy expensive software to use them. They are easily replaced, unlike power supplies and motherboards and will never eat 50 hours of work due to a virus. They are also much more portable than your average computer. It's easy to take them everywhere and sketch with them, giving beginners much more practice than they would normally get.

Besides, you have no idea what you'll end up using and liking in the end. In a few years, you may get into graphite just so you don't have to be chained to the computer for 16 hours a day. It's all "Digital and I are BFFs!" until the carpal tunnel sets in.

I feel I have more control and sensitivity with digital. I can set my brush to have the tiniest increase in shading... it's more sensitive to what I want it to do, not its response to my hand. But the important thing is the artistic knowledge a person is getting....even if my hands get cut off or I become older and lose fine control, i still have my understanding of value and color and form and everything else I learnt, that is the important part of an artist...not how lightly they can touch a piece of paper with a pencil.

Yea, digital is more expensive, so for some people it's not really an option to learn on. But that doesn't mean digital is bad or shouldn't be learnt on if the opportunity is there! And, after learning to draw with digital, it translates back into traditional...i can pick up a sketchpad and draw out some concepts or play around fine (not as well as i can work in digital though, and that is the important thing...I WANT my digital to be stronger than my traditional skills, because my digital is what will be making me money and be the primary way I work. Traditional is just a worse case scenario if I find myself without power or a computer nearby). (((and as for losing work to a crash...you can lose weeks and months of work from a flood or spilling your coffee! If you back up your work online and in other hard-drives...it's almost impossible to lose everything unless the world is hit by a huge EMP blast o.O)

I know I will never end up loving graphite, I just can't get over how messy it gets your hands.

While I'd say there is nothing wrong with digital, there is still a lot to be gained from doing traditional work as well. If you are looking for a full time position somewhere, having traditional experience is often a "plus". There is also a lot to be said for working in a variety of media, whether digital or traditional. Different media needs different approaches, and you never know where you'll get one of those "aha!" moments. One thing most artists heavily recommend is to get a variety of experiences. Learn from different sources, and you'll avoid artistic ruts and plateaus more easily.


Well, ideally I would want to master every medium in the world. Oils, acrylic, charcoal, etching.... but, time is an issue! Maybe once I get into my career I will explore painting more and other tpes of materials, but I want to be able to get a job in a year! I don't have time now to spend trying to get a general knowledge of everything, I need to get good at one thing (good enough so I can get paid for it). I have the rest of my life to explore.... but school should be about getting me prepared to go out ready to produce at a good enough quality in one medium.

My sister got a minor in art. She learnt painting, drawing, sculpting, pottery, jewelry making...and you know what? She can't do any of them at a professional level. Sure, she knows a little bit about each of them, but she can't produce anything and would be impossible for her to get a job doing any of them. So, she is going back to school to become a teacher now...

I don't want to end up like that. I want to learn and master one thing (which is why I am so apposed to them saying I NEED to do it in traditional mediums, when I KNOW that I really need to improve digital skills so I can actually find work). I want to struggle through the assignment in digital and find faster workflows for doing the jobs. Figuring out how to make better use of the tools available and do it faster.

I don't know why you think shading with a pencil will not benefit you at all in the future. The simplest way to learn about light, contrast, textures, edges, proportion, and such is to sit down with a pencil and some paper and try. So I myself don't understand your need to go into Photoshop directly. If you can draw on paper, the transition into digital will be smoother and less time consuming. You will be able to focus on how to use the program to achieve what you want instead of asking yourself "how do I draw and use this program?"


Yup, knowledge about light and value and all those other things are all really important. But they don't come from the medium you work in...they come from understanding about what you are doing.

Working in the medium is ALL about understanding how to work in that medium better / faster / more efficiently. If you work in pencil all the time, you will rock at pencil work. If you work in markers all the time, you will develop tricks and understanding of how to work with markers faster and better. If you do it in photoshop, you will get familiar with the toolset there.

Thats the thing, I want to learn how to use the program better (because, well, that is what I will be using when I work). Why not kill 2 birds with one stone? The class is teaching me how to understand different aspects of art (shading, form, whatever), but why not also use it as a chance to become stronger at using my tools?

Why is it important to do it in pencil and paper?

It's like saying "in order to learn how to drive a car, we will teach you on a motorcycle!" . Yup, learning on a motorcycle will teach you a lot about driving. They have a lot of the same parts. But, why not just start learning on a car and skip the motorcycle all together? If the car is what you know you are going to drive.... whats the point in messing with something else? A car and motorcycle are similar in a lot of ways, but they are also different in a lot of ways. Moving over later only forces you to RE-learn a bunch of things you went through already with the medium you weren't interested in.

One reason is that you can't fake being able to draw a circle, elipse, or work with perspective.

Yup, I could understand this if people were running to photoshop with ellipse tools when their teacher wants them to learn to free-hand a circle. But, that isn't doing the assignment....

It gets strange though. My teacher now wants us to use ellipse guides and compases and all kinds of other tools when working traditional. Why? Why not just do it in photoshop? If you are using tools in both cases...why not use the best tool for the job? Instead of messing with a huge set of ellipse guides to try and find the right curve for the job (it was so crazy, he had a folder of many many pages of cut out ellipses that he would use to draw them.... or using french curves, it would be a labored process to try and find the perfect curves to trace around the circle.)

I think you learn the same thing by using SHIFT + click to draw a line in photoshop as you do using a ruler and pencil in traditional...only one is about 10 times faster.

[Pezz]

I'll leave the wall of text to the others - I just want to comment that you need to get harder edges, your digital paintings all look out of focus and blurry.

[Flake]

You've obviously made up your mind, you just want us to agree that digital is best.

[Eric Young]

Why are you in such a rush? Do you only have a few years left to live? Art can't be mastered in only a year. Artists spend their whole lives learning and trying new things. There isn't some professional test out there where a comity of artists judge your portfolio and tell you you're ready to work professionally. You can suck at art, but if your decent enough in one thing and you're in the right place at the right time, someone will give you work. It probably won't be your dream job but money is money.

Looking at your website you have a lot to learn still, not just how to use photoshop. You need to work on your anatomy, you need to learn when to use a hard edge and a soft edge. And you need to learn how to paint and use color theory if you really want to get into digital illustration. Keep working towards your goals, You seem to have the fire and drive to keep pushing yourself until you reach what you want. Just don't be disappointed when you leave art school and you realize you still have lots to learn. Every artist spends there whole life learning, art isn't like law school and once you're done school you're ready to be a lawyer. For artists even after school we still have to keep teacher ourselves new things.

So basically teach yourself what you think you need, and listen to your teachers and try to learn something from their lessons even if you don't think it'll benefit you.

[Ivory_Oasis]

You've obviously made up your mind, you just want us to agree that digital is best.

Don't confuse a strong opinion with a closed mind.

I see the medium as any number of possible things...none really "better" than the others (you can make arguments for them, but it all comes down to what you are most comfortable with). It's like when people say you can't learn color theory with digital...I just don't understand where that comes from (with the use of layers and opacity and all the other tools in photoshop, i would think color theory would actually be easier to play around with and understand in photoshop).

Thats why it bugs me when people say "you can't"...in a lot of areas concerning art. I was told a lot that "you can't" learn to draw just from digital... normally you can ignore that, but when teachers start to do it, it becomes a little more troublesome.

[Arshes Nei]

Thanks for the link to your site.

I think you will benefit from using traditional media even if you think right now it's a pain. Some of the tools you're using you also...well feel how to make the object, which you can't do with photoshop. For example, using a circle stencil, versus using the Elipse/rectangle tool in PS. While both give you the same result, there is a feeling of how the circle should be drawn that actually helps you with coordination better than if you just made circles in PS. So I think one benefit is an increase in accuracy. It's something like training wheels on a bike till your understand how to balance before you ride it.

The other thing is, it's much easier even with laptops these days to go out and sketch from life. Some places a laptop is not appropriate to bring around, while a small sketchbook is easier to tuck away if it becomes inappropriate or harder to draw.

The freedom of movement is an important decision when you need to do research on your works and being able to capture the moment. This would be better than being stuck behind a desk, or screen all day looking at google for images. While helpful, I noticed too much Photo reference can be a hindrance if not balanced with drawing from life. I still believe traditional still has advantages over it.

Right now, your works suffer a lot from looking like references/photos and have a stiffness to them. They're nice but I get the "heavily referenced" feeling from them. Drawing traditionally might help introduce some looseness you may need.

Shouldn't be afraid of learning different things, you never know what you might end up liking that can help push your drawings forward.

[CKLamb]

I think you need to reread Elwell's very short and to the point post.

Learning to use traditional drawing mediums, such as graphite and charcoal, carries directly over to 2-D Digital mediums. I don't quite understand the source of your angst. I would understand if they wanted you to only do it with sculpting materials or something completely out of the 2-D realm. It's all about learning the process of mark making and how that can translate into form.

Don't focus to hard on the tool in your hand. Worry more about what your producing with it.

[Ivory_Oasis]

;2491171']Why are you in such a rush? Do you only have a few years left to live?

Hehe no no, I just want to do art for a living... it would be a lot more annoying if I had to take a full time non-art related job while still trying to get into the industry. So, I just need to get good enough to get my foot in the door in a year :)

I'm one of those type that like to know why I'm doing something (so I can make sure I am getting the most from it, or changing it to fit me better).

It's the difference between knowing the science behind weightloss and our bodies...and being only being told to eat a "slim quick" for your meals to lose weight. When my teachers tell me to just eat what they give me, I want to know the why behind it (once I know the why, well, I would rather go get a sandwich or something I would rather eat with the same result).

Like my figure drawing teacher had us go home and draw a sunflower. The reason behind the assignment was to help us see, it had nothing to do with the sunflower. So, I went and got a different kind of flower I liked better and would enjoy drawing more. The WHY was important to me, so I could change it to fit me better...while still getting the full benefit of the lessons.

[TASmith]

Dos Santos, Brom, and Elwell all illustrate with traditional painting mediums (and damn well). Also Larry Elmore. Film/Animation artists also use acrylic a lot for initial planning and then do a final illustration digitally. Check out Nathan Fowkes and Luc Desmarchelier.

[Baron Impossible]

I think learning traditional could be of benefit in your digital work and I wish I'd taken that opportunity (if it can be said ever to have arisen). I also agree with what Elwell said, if your teachers aren't comfortable with teaching and managing a digital workflow then they will of course push traditional. It sounds like they perhaps should be more forthcoming about why they shy away from digital and not simply attempt to belittle the digital method, but still.

However, the myth that you must start with traditional before you move on to digital really needs to be quashed. It's old and tired and entirely without foundation.

[RyerOrdStar]

There's nothing like the feel of a pencil in your hand, energy coursing up your arm and connecting you to the page. I don't get the same feeling when using the ephemeral page in Photoshop.

[Kaileighblue]

If something is off on paper; a limb too small or angled wrong, you'd erase it.
On the computer you could lasso it and adjust it. Not that you or everyone does it, but the temptation is there. Someone could learn to rely on the little tricks of a program rather that rely on themselves.

You seem to have a bit of what I have. The 'I want done it now' issue. I came here to try to work on that because skimping on something and calling it done because I'm bored with it is what's holding me back.

You've really been missing something if you think concept art is only done on the computer. My friend has a pile of game concept books that are all pencil ink, and marker. The Fallout 3 book I have in front of me. The artist's blog. (http://adamart08.blogspot.com/)

[Elwell]

Hehe no no, I just want to do art for a living...
<snip>
Like my figure drawing teacher had us go home and draw a sunflower. The reason behind the assignment was to help us see, it had nothing to do with the sunflower. So, I went and got a different kind of flower I liked better and would enjoy drawing more. The WHY was important to me, so I could change it to fit me better...while still getting the full benefit of the lessons.
Part of being a commercial artist is learning how to follow instructions and work to a brief. So if that's really your goal, you're off on the wrong foot already.

[CKLamb]

Ouch.

[Dusty]

If you spent the amount of time it had to have taken you to type up that last response by using your pencil, you'd probably be complaining about the medium less. ;)

Sorry....but I see stuff like this:
The medium of pencil is actually a lot more restrictive to me than digital is.

...and all I see is impatience. And being an artist isn't about being impatient, my friend. We've all been where you are, we've all been frustrated at one time or another (and I can guarantee you, even the best of the best still get frustrated daily at their art). Take the proper steps....LEARN. If you learn how to properly use pencil, ink, and paint you'll be a whiz in photoshop.

It would be a lot more annoying if I had to take a full time non-art related job while still trying to get into the industry.

Be prepared to do so. Even if you break into the industry, you have to accept this possibility at any point. Art careers are never a sure thing. No offense, but you may need a bit of the "real world" to smack you around a bit, it seems.

[Ivory_Oasis]

Part of being a commercial artist is learning how to follow instructions and work to a brief. So if that's really your goal, you're off on the wrong foot already.

The difference is I am the client here... I am the one paying money for the education. If the subject or way they are teaching isn't to my liking, as the client, I change it.

Some thing I will simply have to defer to the instructors on (as, it is what they do, like an artist who is hired by a client...sometimes the client needs to just accept what they are being told needs to be done with the work). But, other things, can be changed :)

Sunflower or a different flower doesn't impact the lesson being taught. It just increases my interest in the work (which, will give me a little extra energy when doing it). You work better on things you enjoy doing, I think that very much applies to education. Learning or improving does not have to be unpleasant to be effective...

I am paying them to guide me in my studies (instead of me just making it up). I am still in control of what I focus more energy to and how far I take things. The only one responsible for my success or failure as an artist is myself, I'm not going to sit back and take a passive role in my education and hope everything works out ok (when it is just a degree you are after, that is fine to do, but in art...its all in what you can do when you get out. And what you can do better match up to what you WANT to do. Doing all still-life studies the entire education with no focus on concept art would be a big mistake to someone trying to become a concept artist, for example.)

[Amber Alexander]

Why not do your assignments in the medium your teacher wants AND then to it in Photoshop.

[Irishdrunk]

No Amber. That just makes too much sense.

[Kaileighblue]

If you're just going to argue with everyone's answer why bother asking? That doesn't bode very well for how you'd take crits.

[Ivory_Oasis]

If you're just going to argue with everyone's answer why bother asking? That doesn't bode very well for how you'd take crits.

I'm not looking for people to talk at me, I'm looking for people to talk with me.

I say one thing, then you say something in reply, and then I say something in reply to that...eventually coming to an understanding.

Why do people take that type of exchange as arguments and something to be avoided? No ones getting mad, just trying to understand eachother o.O And...the only way to do that is by talking back and forth. *shrug*

If someone gives me a crit, I might reply there too (again, not bad!) and try to dig for more information on why they think so or counter with my own view on it (like, they say "i don't like the flowers on the right" and i would go "oh, i think they brighten up the picture! :)" and then they go "no, i meant I don't like the way they are rendered, i like the idea of flowers"...you see, that last bit was only possible when i talked back to them....).

Talking is good! People should really talk more... <3

[ShroudStar]

The difference is I am the client here... I am the one paying money for the education. If the subject or way they are teaching isn't to my liking, as the client, I change it.

Wrong. If the professor(s) are the one giving you the instructions, they are the client(s), not you. You're only your own client when you do personal work for "me, me, me". Classwork isn't supposed to get your jollies up - classwork is to help you train in spite of the fact that you may not like it. Even in the real world, your clients might give you stuff you may not like or want to draw but them's the breaks and if you have to pay the bills, who cares?

It's like if I listened to my art teacher in high school and did my basics and anatomy and all that jazz instead of thinking "anime's so cool and that's all I want to do", I wouldn't be playing catch-up now. It was a drastic lesson to learn. You sure you want to do the same? It'll boomerang back at you in the real world with even more consequences.

[Arshes Nei]

However, the myth that you must start with traditional before you move on to digital really needs to be quashed. It's old and tired and entirely without foundation.

I dunno, when I learned to write and draw and be creative when I was a little kid, my parents knew better than to sit me in front of a computer since I wasn't coordinated. ;)

[Ivory_Oasis]

Wrong. If the professor(s) are the one giving you the instructions, they are the client(s), not you. You're only your own client when you do personal work for "me, me, me". Classwork isn't supposed to get your jollies up - classwork is to help you train in spite of the fact that you may not like it. Even in the real world, your clients might give you stuff you may not like or want to draw but them's the breaks and if you have to pay the bills, who cares?

It's like if I listened to my art teacher in high school and did my basics and anatomy and all that jazz instead of thinking "anime's so cool and that's all I want to do", I wouldn't be playing catch-up now. It was a drastic lesson to learn. You sure you want to do the same? It'll boomerang back at you in the real world with even more consequences.

I'm the one paying them. I have hired them to do what I want (which is additional guidance to my art education). How am I the client? o.O

If they aren't doing the job I think they should...I can fire them (if I don't do the class work, they don't get to fire me...sure, they can give me an F, but the grades are completely meaningless. There is no piece of paper at the end).

In the working world, yup, it is 100 percent about making the person I am working for happy. If they want me to draw them a picture in dog poo with my eyes closed while drunk....well, its their money, Ill produce what they want. But right now, its 100 percent about making ME happy...giving me what I need (I know the level I need to reach, I know the medium I need to reach it with, now I just need the knowledge to fill the gaps... exploration of different mediums isn't what I am after right now).

This isn't highschool where it's a sittuation of "what's good for me". If they came to me and gave an actual reason, such as "in the industry, you will be asked to produce fully rendered pencil drawings" well, I would be all over it... but it's not there. I need to know why it is good for me, or else I just want to move on and focus my time on things that I KNOW I need (again, they are just guiding me in what I focus on, most my time isn't spent on homework. Small projects are fine to just get over with in pencil, but when it starts to dip into lengthy production, I know I need to learn to do that in photoshop because that is where it will be done when I get out).

This isn't a case of a student not wanting to do the work. It is just a case of a student wanted to get the most possible from the work (as it applies to them). It isn't about the easiest path, it is about the most efficient path to reach the goals I have....

Unless, of course, there is just something that I miss... but it really seems to be a generation gap issue and misunderstanding of what computers do (like my teacher said, photoshop isn't really drawing... *boggle*)

[Jason Ross]

I think it all depends on how you use the programs. You can mimic traditional painting to a "certain" degree with programs but NOTHING will replace a real brush, real paint, and the smell of oils or whatever medium you choose. I think that it's similar to teachers taking away our black pigment in watercolor class. Learning from the bottom up is probably still the best for most people. No color picker or burn tool in real life...I don't think at least.

[Derek the Usurper]

By practicing with the harder and more restrictive medium you will improve your skills overall when you move back to the easier and more robust medium. It's just like using a limited palette in painting in order to strengthen your paint mixing skills. Learn to become good with less, so you can become great with more.

If graphite is specifically the problem, try using a conte pencil and white chalk.

[Elwell]

It isn't about the easiest path, it is about the most efficient path to reach the goals I have....

Unless, of course, there is just something that I miss... but it really seems to be a generation gap issue and misunderstanding of what computers do (like my teacher said, photoshop isn't really drawing... *boggle*)

OK, in reference to the bolded section above, I'm going to say this one more time...
Your teachers can only teach what they know how to teach. If someone doesn't understand working digitally, then working digitally in their class in going to introduce needless distractions, and get in the way of your learning what they do know. So, do you want to spend the class (which you presumably have already committed money and time to), learning or fighting? If you would rather do the second, then please, cut your losses, drop out of the class, and stop wasting your teacher's, your own, and your fellow students' time.

[Ivory_Oasis]

OK, in reference to the bolded section above, I'm going to say this one more time...
Your teachers can only teach what they know how to teach. If someone doesn't understand working digitally, then working digitally in their class in going to introduce needless distractions, and get in the way of your learning what they do know. So, do you want to spend the class (which you presumably have already committed money and time to), learning or fighting? If you would rather do the second, then please, cut your losses, drop out of the class, and stop wasting your teacher's, your own, and your fellow students' time.

They aren't teaching us pencil techniques...they are just saying "here is the assignment, do it in pencil and paper".

I have another class teaching much the same material, but the class allows us to work in whatever we want (because the lessons are on perspective, not on pencil work). It would be crazy for me to complain about being forced to use pencil and paper that was designed to teach how to use pencil and paper....but these classes aren't for that.

Learning how to plot shadows isn't about what you do it in...it's about understanding what you are doing and being able to apply it to your artwork.

Mmm, its like when you need to do a paper for a class and they give 100 details on exactly the type of paper and spacing and words per page... except, that actually has a reason (easier to grade or read).

[Arshes Nei]

Ok then don't do the assignments then. If you're in the position of "being the client" then don't pay your services. Demand a refund and walk out. Your education as so well put into the "Reality of going to an art school" is what you put into it.

[JJacks]

It's like saying "in order to learn how to drive a car, we will teach you on a motorcycle!"


No it isn't.

I think you misunderstood my post. It's easiest to just pick up a pencil and a paper instead of taking a photo of something or collecting it, starting up your comp, starting up photoshop, and then drawing it. It's more accessible to the other students in the class as well. You're not the only person in there and not everyone in the class has access to PS. You don't have to aim to be a pencil guru. Why not apply the skills you are learning into your digital art. If you are interested in art then no time learning any skill is wasted or invaluable.

Fine, some of this is personal preference. So just drop your class and take a digital art class then.

[Amber Alexander]

I think the best way to describe it would be like teaching someone to type before learning how to write. Yes writting is slow and more physical and looks much worse and not as easily editable as typing but you learn the basics. But if you type before learning to write then you'll probably be a bad speller. Anyway...

if you have already made up your mind then try to find out from the teacher WHY you have to do the assignment in pencil, you can always talk to the dean of the department and see if they will let you adjust your coursework. Pretty much every artist agrees that starting with traditional methods is good.

However if you're school was like mine and they ONLY ever worked traditional (they were very out dated) and you really want to work digitial then you may be in the wrong school.

[Ninjerk]

Any weakness in drawing ability will be evident in paper and pencil (since you'll be using lines to construct everything), and you will learn the importance of doing things right the first time when your paper stops holding graphite because you've rubbed the paper to death with your eraser. Protip: grab a vinyl eraser for graphite instead of kneaded.

Also, for almost two years now I've been starting everything with HB. It's hardness is extremely versatile in the first steps of your drawing (not to mention that you can you smooth your darks out with it after you've thrown down your softer graphite).

One last thing, if your teachers are only teaching in traditional, traditional is too restrictive, and you already know the most efficient way to learn, why are you paying anyone to teach you? If you want a pizza, order a pizza, and quit calling the Chinese place.

[darkwolf29a]

You can do what you want.

I'm sorry, but I grow very tired of people coming in here and whining about things like this. If you think you can just do digital and everything will be fine....go get you money back. It's apparent to me that you are learning nothing in school. How much are you paying for it? Probably far too much, considering how much you aren't getting out of it.

And why aren't getting anything out of it? Hmm...Because you aren't TRYING to get anything out of it. I have yet to find anything that I have learned, thus far in my art school that isn't applicable to digital. And, yes....we're using A LOT of paper and pencil. I once thought the way that you did, but I realized one thing...I was wrong!!! There are a lot of nuances that cannot be taught, or LEARNED, in digital. Plus, it's very easy to hide mistakes, problems, and such things in digital.

Or....here's another thought. You can do what you are paying to do...LEARN. You can take the time, understand the techniques, fix your mistakes now. If you do all that, once you get to use digital, you will be much better off.

As has been stated, sure you can learn to type without learning to write, but....is it wise? Nope! No more wise than just doing digital. There will come a time when you HAVE to have that drawing skill, with paper and pencil. When that time comes...I want to see how to get out of it when a manager is standing over you.

[Lamp]

Frankly, I'm not sure what in the world you are worried about. Learning the ins and outs of Photoshop is nothing compared to the gargantuan task of learning how to DRAW, and you're not going to be able to paint in Photoshop ANYWAY if you can't draw. So who cares what the medium is? There are a thousand reasons I can think of that a teacher would want you to provide a physical piece of art for grading and critique, not the least of which is the fact that they can access it without a computer or an internet connection.

In the end -- why do you care so much? Learning to draw is learning to draw, so whether you realize it or not it absolutely IS preparing you to work digitally.

[Ivory_Oasis]

Ok then don't do the assignments then. If you're in the position of "being the client" then don't pay your services. Demand a refund and walk out. Your education as so well put into the "Reality of going to an art school" is what you put into it.

Oh, no no, I'm not saying that the assignments are useless or the classes are useless. I am actually learning a lot (what I want!).... but what I am learning is knowledge about things like perspective, they aren't actually teaching how to use pencil and paper (well, other than the ellipse guide things), but I am learning the pencil and paper as a by-product of having to do it in that medium.

Everyone keeps saying that traditional translates over to digital. Yup, if you learn only traditional and then one day pick up digital, you will be able to produce some nice things (not very comfortably for a good while, but eventually you would learn how to use digital).

Now, the thing is, it works the other way too! I learnt everything on digital and when I finally picked up a pencil, I could draw (woot). I could move the pencil to get shading and form and line and all that other good stuff. I could sketch out characters and thumb ideas. That is all I will need though, the only way I will need traditional is to sketch out quick ideas....not plot detailed drawings and rendering high quality shading and clean marker works. That is more heavy work that is going to take a bit longer, and for that I would move to the computer (something I would need to import it into anyway for ANY work that I would be doing, I can't think of any instance where a more finished work wouldn't be required in the end in digital).

Like I said, my other class that is teachng the same things lets me produce in digital. That teacher realizes the purpose of the class is to teach us whatever the class subject is...what you actually do it in isn't important (that is just a matter of preference). As long as you are doing the assignments and are doing what he asks, everything is great.

I think you misunderstood my post. It's easiest to just pick up a pencil and a paper instead of taking a photo of something or collecting it, starting up your comp, starting up photoshop, and then drawing it. It's more accessible to the other students in the class as well. You're not the only person in there and not everyone in the class has access to PS. You don't have to aim to be a pencil guru.

I don't understand why everyone needs to produce in the same way? It wouldn't affect any other student if I produce in the medium I need. It wouldn't slow down the class or have any impact on my work (well, other than making it better). I'm not asking that they require everyone to do it digital (and actually, the teacher teaches us IN DIGITAL!! The lectures are him in photoshop demonstrating what we need to do. Poorly and with lots of trouble on his part...but he still does it digital because it just is easier to show everyone on the big screen).

I think the best way to describe it would be like teaching someone to type before learning how to write. Yes writting is slow and more physical and looks much worse and not as easily editable as typing but you learn the basics. But if you type before learning to write then you'll probably be a bad speller.

I see it more as teaching someone to produce documents with a type-writer instead of a computer in word. Putting page numbers with a type writer is a lot harder than in word (you need to find the correct possition on the page to match each, center it manually, make corrections and white-out if you change page lengths...or even re-type the entire page if you need to add in something). The end goal is being able to produce a nice document, and in the working world...you will be using word on a computer...never ever required to produce a full document with a typewriter (I will never ever be required to produce a fully rendered clean pencil drawing in my career, never).

Yup, a lot of the things are the same (both have keyboards! just like both digital and traditional have pen-like devices that you use to draw on a surface). But there are a lot of difference that you will need to re-learn and adjust to when you move over to your real medium. Things that don't really translate into added benefit (like the ability to cleanly white out letters and words or to manually center text... or the ability to fully render clean pencil shading using blending stump techiques and graphite powder and how to use kneaded erasers to their fullest).

Basically, I want to get a job producing documents for a company. I know I will be doing it with a computer with a program like word. I want to just learn that and skip the hours spent on figuring out how to white-out mistakes and how to replace the ink strips in a type-writer.

I have never met a concept artist that is REQUIRED to produce in fully rendered traditional methods. I have only seen traditional being required in the sketching phase (busting out quick ideas in front of a client at a table, or jotting down quick observations / ideas on the fly). Stuff I can do now, I reached the level I need to be in traditional.... now it's time to focus on the "meat" of the requirements (which is producing a nice piece of work quickly and of high quality...in whatever medium I wish).

Concept artists can even produce in oil if they can do it really high quality and digitize it as fast as their digital peers... clients don't care, as long as they have the work in their hand at the deadline and its the quality / style they need. The medium is up to us to pick (just, most go with digital because it is so much faster....older concept artists do it traditional because that is what they were trained in and are stronger in, at this point in their career, they don't have the time or desire to re-learn how to produce with a computer).

[Lamp]

Everyone keeps saying that traditional translates over to digital. Yup, if you learn only traditional and then one day pick up digital, you will be able to produce some nice things (not very comfortably for a good while, but eventually you would learn how to use digital).

True, to an extent. I still think that you are ignoring the really obvious advantage of paper and pencil in the learning process -- portability. Why is that so important? So that you can draw from life, something that is essential for any artist who wants to improve his drawing ability. Good luck toting around your laptop and tablet to anywhere but your desk.

[Ivory_Oasis]

Yea, drawing from life you probably wana use a pencil. That's why I don't mind using it in my figure drawing class, because it would be just silly to try and bring in a computer.

But, when he assigns us to go home and draw a flower, why couldn't I do that on the computer? (which he did assign! and i do want to do! haha)

The figure drawing teacher has a good attitude though. He straight says "it's up to you to take what you want from the class, I'm not going to require you to do anything". I agree with that!

I guess I'm tired of the traditional "do what the teacher says or else!!!", I see teachers as more equals now, who are assisting me and walking along side me while I learn...guiding and pointing out suggestions on how I should continue. I have my degree, there is no magic piece of paper they are holding over my head to jump towards... just the mutual goal of improving as an artist.

[Ariel9]

I don't have the experience and knowledge of many people (well, all of them really!) that posted in this thread, but here's my two cents as someone who's also planning to get work real quick after I'm done studying what's necessary. Some of this could sound a bit rambly, I'm sorry for that: since english is not my first language, it's tough for me to organize my thoughts properly.

Just because I'll be done studying what's necessary to work, doesn't mean I will be done studying PERIOD. Practice will always be needed, I'll set myself new challenges. Personally, I would get bored to death only ever using one medium. Good for you if you don't.

Also, the issue Lamp and others brought up is very real and I didn't see you reply to that. If I didn't bring pencil (well, mostly pen in my case) and paper with me wherever I go, I couldn't sketch people with beautiful, interesting features, or simply the body language of people on the bus, or anything else like that.

I have a passion for many mediums. I like how they feel in my hands. They're not just means to an end. It seems to me like you're very focused on your career, but do you love digital aside from it being a mean to an end? Is there something about it that feels more right to you, that makes you click? Or is it just that the industry needs it?
Of course we need to be focused on what the industry wants. But we don't have to forget that we're doing this out of passion, otherwise we'd just become lawyers or accountants or whatever.

Plus, you're most likely not going to work for a company right away, or anyways not just with a company. Are you not EVER doing freelance work? Because a client could totally commission a traditional piece.

Also, sometimes it's about the discipline and accuracy it takes to draw with graphite. You can do master copies digitally and learn a lot, but if you're doing a Da Vinci pencil study with a pencil you'll learn even more. And not just about the medium - you'll learn what it was like for him.

Hope that makes as much sense as it did in my head, ehe.

[Mike Frank]

Ivory, what class level are you in?

When you're working on your thesis project, or in higher level courses - that's when you can expect to treat your teachers as peers.

If you so happen to be the kind of kid who labors away outside of school learning digital, or generally putting in the extra mile - more power to you. But if you're in "fundamentals of drawing" and you're trying to come in and bust the rules up.. good luck.

[Ivory_Oasis]

Just because I'll be done studying what's necessary to work, doesn't mean I will be done studying PERIOD. Practice will always be needed, I'll set myself new challenges. Personally, I would get bored to death only ever using one medium. Good for you if you don't.

Also, the issue Lamp and others brought up is very real and I didn't see you reply to that. If I didn't bring pencil (well, mostly pen in my case) and paper with me wherever I go, I couldn't sketch people with beautiful, interesting features, or simply the body language of people on the bus, or anything else like that.

I have a passion for many mediums. I like how they feel in my hands. They're not just means to an end. It seems to me like you're very focused on your career, but do you love digital aside from it being a mean to an end?.

Oh yup, I plan to continue to learn for the rest of my life... I just want to get my foot in the door so I can be doing art full time in a year. I don't really go out much (and never to draw) I can't really see myself doing that either, I guess I am a different type of artist? I just want to understand things and then reproduce it through understanding (so i guess I am more the "thinky" type of artist?).

I hate the way things feel in my hands though. Getting paint or graphite on my fingers bugs me... so working digital is a lot lot more fun for me. My figure drawing teacher was talking about how digital you don't have all the "feel" you do with traditional mediums...and i was like "yea!! isn't it great?!" hehe

Ivory, what class level are you in?

When you're working on your thesis project, or in higher level courses - that's when you can expect to treat your teachers as peers.

If you so happen to be the kind of kid who labors away outside of school learning digital, or generally putting in the extra mile - more power to you. But if you're in "fundamentals of drawing" and you're trying to come in and bust the rules up.. good luck.

Oh, I don't have a class level? I just graduated from college with an accounting degree a few months ago...then moved down to take classes at gnomon for a year to just work on getting better at art.

I don't get a degree or piece of paper or anything else at the end of my time here. So, I don't really care about grades. My teachers don't have the same type of power that my college teachers did. I don't feel the need to "play ball", because, well, this isn't the same type of game as college was. In college, you just mindlessly do what the teachers say for 4 years and at the end they give you a nice prize to get a job with (you don't even have to really remember anything you did during the 4 years).

In art training, it is all about what I learn...not about how well I format my assignments and how well I can trick the system into giving me an A for the least amount of work. It's not about figuring out the way the teachers format the tests so I don't have to really study...or last minute cramming the night before an exam so i can slack off till the next test.

Basically, I WANT to be working on things to improve. Beyond what the teachers are teaching.... I can move at a faster pace than other people, I don't want to hold my education back just so I can make people happy (even if that means not doing the assignments, or doing them in a different way).

Doing it traditionally seems like holding my education back to me. I want to be learning more complicated ways of producing (photoshop) and more advanced ways of rendering (along with developing new workflows to make me more efficient).

It just seems strange some of my teachers don't understand this (maybe i need to try and explain it better to them, i guess I was hoping to just ignore the issue and do what I want... but I doubt that would be the best idea heh).

[kjdawson80]

/snip

...

Doing it traditionally seems like holding my education back to me. I want to be learning more complicated ways of producing (photoshop) and more advanced ways of rendering (along with developing new workflows to make me more efficient).

....



If that's what you want to learn, then you are in the wrong class. The classes you are taking now aren't focused on complicated ways of producting and advanced ways of rendering. The classes you are in sound like foundation classes, and PS seems out of their scope(s). See if you can "test out" of these classes and move onto something more your speed, or take more advanced PS classes that don't require these current classes as pre-reqs.

As for why your teachers may insist on pencil and paper:

1) They don't know/don't have Photoshop, and may have to make a huge outlay of time/cost to accomodate one student.

2) Like everyone else said, skills in pencil and paper transfer to digital methods quite easily. I'm sure it can work similarly for some people to do it the opposite way, but for others it might not be possible.

3) Fairness to other students. If they don't have access to Photoshop, and can't render as well as you can because you have Photoshop and know how to use it, and they're just starting out, I could see quite a few complaints arising. And then you might be forced to use pencil and paper anyway.

[Qitsune]

Ivory_oasis, I'm not sure why you are being so aggressive to people who are trying to help you. The only art I have found of you is 2 posts in the sketchbook section yet you talk like you are the long awaited reincarnation of Leonardo Da Vinci and everyone wants to hold you back from your inherent awesomeness.

If you don't want people's advice, don't ask for it.

You sound like a whiny brat.

Following briefs is an important part of having an art job.

Employers read CA too, there have been instances in the past of someone's posts coming back to bite their ass in their professional lives.

[Lamp]

I'm also wondering how it is you expect your teachers to accomodate you. While the other students are bringing in their assignments for review and critique, you show up empty handed and say, "Oh, it should be in your e-mailbox"? And then what happens when the teacher can't get to their computer, or doesn't have internet access in the classroom, or is just having computer troubles, or the email didn't send right and the file is corrupted, etc etc etc.

[Ivory_Oasis]

Ivory_oasis, I'm not sure why you are being so aggressive to people who are trying to help you. The only art I have found of you is 2 posts in the sketchbook section yet you talk like you are the long awaited reincarnation of Leonardo Da Vinci and everyone wants to hold you back from your inherent awesomeness.

If you don't want people's advice, don't ask for it.

You sound like a whiny brat.

Following briefs is an important part of having an art job.

Employers read CA too, there have been instances in the past of someone's posts coming back to bite their ass in their professional lives.

Im being aggressive? o.O I didn't mean to be... just replying to people...

Is the only thing I can say in reply to people without being labeled a whiny brat "ok thanks" ?

Yup, I agree following briefs is an important part of having an art job. But this isn't an art job... this is still just me learning. When I get out into the art world, if a client says "we want them in pencil" well, they are the ones paying the bills, its up to them to decide how they want it (of course, I could always say "Oh, sorry, I don't produce in that medium" if I didn't think I could give them what they wanted and the cost benefit of the job wasn't where I needed it to be).

I don't think I'm the long awaited god of art ... I don't even think I am very good at the moment. I do think I can learn though and I do think I have a clear goal at the type of art I want to be doing (and I need to do it relatively quickly, so I am kind of in a rush when it comes to learning). I think I take in information pretty well, I just want to use that ability to its fullest with my time.

If I am going to spend 10 hours rendering out a bunch of work for class, I want it get the most possible for it (sorry if that makes me a jerk, for wanting to get the most from my work...)

I'm not sure how that makes me aggressive or a whiny brat...but... I guess it makes me seem that way?

I have been met for as long as I have been trying to learn art with the attitude that digital wasn't real, 2nd rate, and impossible to learn from. My teachers say you can't sketch in it. I am told you don't really draw in it. I am told it doesn't let you learn how to be an artist and it is inferior to everything else imaginable.

Mmm it just bugs me when people believe things without any real reasons behind them. I am where I am now because of digital, it bugs me when people put the medium down because "you can't" a variety of things with it.

I see the most valuable part of what we learn as artist is the understanding and non physical aspects. Muscle control is just a tiny tiny bit at the very start of being an artist. When you are learning anatomy, color theory, perspective, value, form or ANY other of the many aspects of art...the medium is only a means to explore and develop a better understanding of those areas.

It just seems silly to say that pencil and paper is giving you some un-named benefit over the same lessons and work being done digitally.

I'm moving my hand the same. I am thinking the same. I am exploring and growing the same command over the subject matter. The only differences are in the greater control over the given medium (those who do the lessons in pencil and paper will be stronger at controlling that medium, those who do it in paint will become stronger at using paint, those who do them in digital will be stronger at digital)... why does it make me a whiny brat to know that I want to be stronger in digital at this point? ...I don't understand....

Maybe I am stupid. But I just can't see how my teachers or others are connecting the dots on this to say digital shouldn't be used to learn...

[Ivory_Oasis]

I'm also wondering how it is you expect your teachers to accomodate you. While the other students are bringing in their assignments for review and critique, you show up empty handed and say, "Oh, it should be in your e-mailbox"? And then what happens when the teacher can't get to their computer, or doesn't have internet access in the classroom, or is just having computer troubles, or the email didn't send right and the file is corrupted, etc etc etc.

Well, I would do it the same way I do it in my perspective class (where he allows me to do digital where everyone else uses traditional mediums). I print it off, and pin the assignment on the wall like everyone else for him to discuss at the start of class (mine is a couple pages though, the actual drawing / concept... then another sheet with a faded version with the plotting lines over it *easy with layers*... and even a 3rd sheet to show a different aspect of the drawing. Rendered out, instead of just a simple drawing also.)

It doesn't make anyones job harder or cause any interruptions. It is just me working in another medium and producing what is asked for (only a little more advanced to combine a few different lessons into one, such as rendering and value usage combined with the intended use of perspective and plotting exercise).

[JJacks]

Was the name of the class Photoshop 101? If not and you signed up for it anyways, why are you still complaining? That's your fault; it's not your teacher's fault or anyone else's, it's your own fault. So stop complaining and either do the work and learn Photoshop on your own or drop the class.

No matter what you think, your teacher is there to help you but he also has a commitment to the other students in the class. How is he going to run a productive class if he has you doing assignments in Photoshop, three people doing it with ink wash, and five people using pencil? You may think it has no effect on your or the other students, but it has an effect on how he runs the class. Don't expect the class to change to your expectations.

When I started school, I knew a bit about Photoshop. I could draw better than some of the students. Then there were students who drew tons better than I could. Some of those more advanced students came to study digital art. Yet, we all sat in that same room and drew the same pots, chairs, plastic flowers, and boots. No one complained about this sort of study holding them back because even for the most advanced artists there comes a time when you must return to the basics to sharpen your own skills. It seems like you just want to fight against everything, so good luck.

Lastly, like many people have said, if you can't follow directions given to you, no matter how pointless or joyless you think they are, don't be a professional artist. The End.

[Dusty]

Ivory_oasis, I'm not sure why you are being so aggressive to people who are trying to help you. The only art I have found of you is 2 posts in the sketchbook section yet you talk like you are the long awaited reincarnation of Leonardo Da Vinci and everyone wants to hold you back from your inherent awesomeness.

If you don't want people's advice, don't ask for it.

You sound like a whiny brat.

Following briefs is an important part of having an art job.

Employers read CA too, there have been instances in the past of someone's posts coming back to bite their ass in their professional lives.

I agree with this a little bit, for sure.
Not only that, Ivory_Oasis, but what you call "just talking" is coming off as incredibly argumentative and resistant to advice. You said "it just bugs me when people believe things without any real reasons behind them."...but that is completely false. People have given you a lot of VERY valid reasons why this pattern of learning WORKS and you just let it go in one ear and out the other.

Can we agree that you are at the beginning of your education? Can we agree that you may not know everything about art? Naturally, no one here knows "everything" about art, but there are a lot of people in this thread who know a lot more about it than you. I'd say you should stop typing and start listening to the advice people (and your instructors, for that matter) are giving you AND paying attention the reasons that they say them, and there are reasons!

Beyond that? It's absolutely your money.
Do with it what you will. If you don't feel you are getting the education that you want, then go about it your own way. Plenty of artists have done things their own way, you should be no exception.

[RyerOrdStar]

You think you'll be able to take orders from clients without saying anything in the professional world, well think again. This sort of behaviour in class is exactly how you'll be reacting when you get to the professional world, because this is an attitude, and it shows how you are in everything.

When you get your first job you'll be upset that they want you to do it in pencil because 'digital is so much faster', why do they want you to do it in grayscale when the movie is in colour, etc etc.

And then, how are you going to know how to draw a fully realized environment when you didn't bother learning in your traditional media class in school? It doesn't just come out of thin air just because you can do a painting in Photoshop.

And yes, being aggressive is when you quote everyone's posts and dissect them and counterargue every point they make, instead of just saying I see your point, you may be right. Being able to counterargue does not make the other person's point invalid. There's some things that are just right, no matter how much you squirm and wriggle under them.

[RyerOrdStar]

You think you'll be able to take orders from clients without saying anything in the professional world, well think again. This sort of behaviour in class is exactly how you'll be reacting when you get to the professional world, because this is an attitude, and it shows how you are in everything.

When you get your first job you'll be upset that they want you to do it in pencil because 'digital is so much faster', why do they want you to do it in grayscale when the movie is in colour, etc etc.

And then, how are you going to know how to draw a fully realized environment when you didn't bother learning in your traditional media class in school? It doesn't just come out of thin air just because you can do a painting in Photoshop.

And yes, being aggressive is when you quote everyone's posts and dissect them and counterargue every point they make, instead of just saying I see your point, you may be right. Being able to counterargue does not make the other person's point invalid. There's some things that are just right, no matter how much you squirm and wriggle under them.

[nonie]

The fastest way to learn is to work your ass off. DO what the teacher asks, the way they ask you to do it, and really search for what you can learn from it, and then do the assignment again digitally. It's more work, yes, but your rate of improvement relies more on actually spending a lot of time working and learning than on anything else.

Also, as Elwell said, your teachers can only teach you what they themselves know well. If you insist on considering yourself a paying customer and not someone asking to be led, then realize that the best *value* you can get for your money is to learn what the teacher is an expert in. Would you go to a carpenter and try to hire them to do your taxes?

Trying to get to a hire-able level with only 3 total years of drawing experience is a tall order. It takes most people a whole lot more than that. You're going to have to work your ass off and you're going to have to learn some humility. If your teacher says pencil is best, listen to them on faith that you'll learn something, and you will. Doing the assignment again in another medium will teach you even more.

Art is a cumulative thing, everything you do teaches you, and the more variety the better. I learned to paint mostly digitally, but I got a *whole* lot better after learning to use oils. I got a whole lot more accurate after using pencil, and I got a whole lot more confident after using pen and ink. Every medium teaches you something different, and traditional mediums teach you these things in a mush clearer and faster way. So suck up your ego (because that's what's making you think you know better than your teachers how to learn to draw) and just do the work.

To accomplish what you're trying to do, you have to go way above and beyond every single assignment. You can't waste time complaining. Get off the internet and go do it.

[Ivory_Oasis]

I agree with this a little bit, for sure.
Not only that, Ivory_Oasis, but what you call "just talking" is coming off as incredibly argumentative and resistant to advice. You said "it just bugs me when people believe things without any real reasons behind them."...but that is completely false. People have given you a lot of VERY valid reasons why this pattern of learning WORKS and you just let it go in one ear and out the other.

Can we agree that you are at the beginning of your education? Can we agree that you may not know everything about art? Naturally, no one here knows "everything" about art, but there are a lot of people in this thread who know a lot more about it than you.

I'd say you should stop typing and start listening to the advice people are giving you AND paying attention the reasons that they say them, and there are reasons!

Beyond that? It's absolutely your money.
Do with it what you will. If you don't feel you are getting the education that you want, then go about it your own way. Plenty of artists have done things their own way, you should be no exception.

Yup, I totally agree I am at the start of my art education and don't know everything about art :)

The thing about people believing things without a reason behind it was more aimed at the comments my teachers have made. Such as

"You can not sketch in photoshop"

"Photoshop is not really drawing"

Not to sound like I know it all... but.. I am pretty sure these are completely BS statements... I don't need to be a master to realize, yea, you can sketch digitally and yea photoshop is really drawing (unless I am wrong, in which case I am a lot farther off from understanding than I thought heh).

[kjdawson80]

Well, I would do it the same way I do it in my perspective class (where he allows me to do digital where everyone else uses traditional mediums). I print it off, and pin the assignment on the wall like everyone else for him to discuss at the start of class (mine is a couple pages though, the actual drawing / concept... then another sheet with a faded version with the plotting lines over it *easy with layers*... and even a 3rd sheet to show a different aspect of the drawing. Rendered out, instead of just a simple drawing also.)

It doesn't make anyones job harder or cause any interruptions. It is just me working in another medium and producing what is asked for (only a little more advanced to combine a few different lessons into one, such as rendering and value usage combined with the intended use of perspective and plotting exercise).


I hate* to say it, and I'm sure I'll get dinged for it somehow, but after reading this quote, I can't help but wonder if part of your determination to use Photoshop when everyone else is using pencil and pen is to show off somehow :/ And I'm not saying it to be malicious.

Whether it's to show other students up, impress your teachers with the skillset and tools you currently have, or something else, it comes across as trying to one-up everyone else. This might not be your intent - it might even be subconscious, I don't know.

I just wanted to let you know that this is how you're coming across to some via text, and you might be doing the same in person with the teachers you have.

*oh hai I like to forget words in my posts

[Ivory_Oasis]

And yes, being aggressive is when you quote everyone's posts and dissect them and counterargue every point they make, instead of just saying I see your point, you may be right. Being able to counterargue does not make the other person's point invalid. There's some things that are just right, no matter how much you squirm and wriggle under them.

... .... I was just quoting people so it was clear what I was responding to....

Mmmm soo.... woops. Didn't know it was a silent aggressive internet gesture....



Lets just say, I am a little different. I have been teaching myself art for a while and think of this as continuing to teach myself with a little extra guidance from classes. Everyone has their own path to take :) Hopefully it will work out!

[Dusty]

"You can not sketch in photoshop"

"Photoshop is not really drawing"

Not to sound like I know it all... but.. I am pretty sure these are completely BS statements... I don't need to be a master to realize, yea, you can sketch digitally and yea photoshop is really drawing (unless I am wrong, in which case I am a lot farther off from understanding than I thought heh).

Okay, last attempt to get through to you. Yes, those two statements you said are "BS", but you aren't qualified to completely ignore that benefits of pencil yet. I sketch in photoshop all the time for jobs, but I draw a lot on paper too and I've gone through the motions to get to where I am. I've paid my dues, sir....we all have. You have not, so don't knock it until you can look to the past to see it's application.

Storytime:
When I was in art school (for industrial design), I thought I knew exactly what I wanted to do with my career, which was prop-making for movies. I had a lot of classes, some of them were awesome, some of them I didn't have as much fun in, but ONE of them stood out at the time as something I truly hated: Environmental Design. It had to do with a little bit architecture, structure, stuff like fountains, parks, etc....kind of all inclusive to anything that would surround you. I hated this class so much. It was boring, I hated learning about Frank Lloyd Wright and all of these other people and I also hated the teacher. By the end of the class I inadvertently learned quite a bit, because even though I hated the class, I wasn't going to pay to not listen and day dream. So there went another non-applicable class, right? Wrong. Fast forward a few years...the prop-making thing never happened and I ended up as an ENVIRONMENT artist for video games. Is it all starting to come together? I have found that class to be one of the most applicable in what I am actually doing with my life now. I look back on myself like I was a fool....and learned a very important lesson. Don't argue with anything teachers try to teach you, because as an artist you need to adapt to your original dreams and goals. You may very well get an art position someday, but it may not be exactly what you initially envisioned. So be prepared for it.

[Ivory_Oasis]

Okay, last attempt to get through to you. I'm a little annoyed that you are writing a lot of this off as "BS". People wouldn't be in here trying to make their points if they weren't trying to help you....so if it's just "BS" to you, then nothing will get through.

Why are you attacking me on something you agree with me on? (I'm assuming here)

Unless you are saying you disagree. And that you actually can't sketch in photoshop and that working digitally really isn't drawing.

The message I am getting is that I am being some arrogant know it all for claiming to such a great artist that I know so much more than my teachers. So saying that something is BS is beyond what I am allowed at this point. Even when, it seems so clearly to be the case.

Saying you can not sketch in photoshop is false (in my experience, i have sketched in photoshop, so i know this statement to be false as a fact). It means my teacher is wrong (I know, he is the teacher and it is arrogant for me to say he is wrong, but.... i don't know a nicer way to say it).

Saying photoshop isn't really drawing is also false (in my experience, i have drawn in photoshop, so, also I have to say this is false as a fact). Again, it's making me out to be an arrogant jerk... but... I think my teacher is wrong about this too.

I just don't really think I am accomplishing much here other than coming off as an arrogant jerk with a huge ego (no matter what I say). It seems my opinions have so little value, that to question anyone is only serving to solidify my place as the "clueless know it all". Even the act of simply quoting people to respond to them is seen as a hostile act...

So, I think I surrender *waves white flag* I accept I know nothing and can have no opinion on the subject... when I become a master and earn the right to an opinion, i will finally be able to voice my thoughts without being seen as an arrogant kid that can't take directions ....

Not really the reaction I had expected... this is a very hostile place! lol

[RyerOrdStar]

This is so dumb. You are completely ignoring what we're actualy saying.

We are not saying the teacher's statements are right. We are saying that yOU SHOULD BE DOING WHAT HE'S ASKING YOU TO DO IN CLASS. Ignore what he says about photoshop, pick up the damn pencil, and do his assignments THE WAY HE WANTS THEM TO BE DONE.

[kjdawson80]

No one is saying that you can't draw or sketch in Photoshop, and that's an invalid way of developing rough ideas.

Personally, I'm no good at it - I prefer Paint Tool Sai or OpenCanvas v 1.1. The Pen and Pencil tools feel more natural to me than Photoshop (or Painter, even). Even the trial of SketchPro I tried was better than PS for sketching on the computer.

What people are getting upset at is that we're trying to help you see why your teachers might not want to accept your assignments as Photoshop drawings, and how you poo-poo the traditional materials as much as your teachers seem to poo-poo your interest in Photoshop.

You keep insisting that you can't learn anything from pen and pencil and all that jazz, when there are people in here telling you that it's possible, that it just might happen, and that your insistence on limiting yoursel to Photoshop may also limit your growth as an artist.

[Ivory_Oasis]

This is so dumb. You are completely ignoring what we're actualy saying.

We are not saying the teacher's statements are right. We are saying that yOU SHOULD BE DOING WHAT HE'S ASKING YOU TO DO IN CLASS. Ignore what he says about photoshop, pick up the damn pencil, and do his assignments THE WAY HE WANTS THEM TO BE DONE.

I have had a lot of teachers over the years :)

One thing I have learnt... is that teachers are not always right. I have had some teach out-dated information or information that was simply wrong.

Then, there is that I am trying to bend the program to fit my specific needs (because, this isn't like a degree seeking class where the need is to simply finish the class) so it gets a little more complicated in trying to get the class to do things I need without going outside of the scope of the class or the intent.

I know the typical sittuation is some dumb kid that is just trying to avoid class work, but I guess you will just have to trust that this is not a typical case (I guess I might have given the same advice as many have to an 18 year old coming out of highschool trying to do the same thing...just shut up and do the work haha, so I can understand I guess).

So... it's not important... life goes on haha. The thread was more about me voicing my frustration I guess? *rant rant!*

[Ivory_Oasis]

No one is saying that you can't draw or sketch in Photoshop, and that's an invalid way of developing rough ideas.

My teacher is :)

You keep insisting that you can't learn anything from pen and pencil and all that jazz, when there are people in here telling you that it's possible, that it just might happen, and that your insistence on limiting yoursel to Photoshop may also limit your growth as an artist.

Oh no no no no, i think you very much can learn in pencil and pen and anything else. I think you can learn on pretty much any medium. Learning art is less about what you do it in and more about what you understand and learn. There are people who draw with only their mouth! I just think its silly to limit someone to learning in one medium because of tradition.

[Dusty]

Why are you attacking me on something you agree with me on? (I'm assuming here)

How am I attacking you? If I was attacking ya, you'd know it. ;)
Regardless, you actually quoted what I wrote before editing my response because I thought you were saying "all of this is BS" and not just "these two statements are BS".

Unfortunately, you completely ignored the actual point of my reply to you...which was the story. If you got nothing from that, then I can offer you no more advice.

Best of luck!

[Ariel9]

The teacher IS wrong about Photoshop, we're agreeing with you on that. But I don't see you replying to some very good points, like for example Dusty's story.

This isn't an hostile place and I'm sorry if I myself am coming across as such right now, it's just that you're repeating the points we already agreed on (digital isn't evil! Teachers can be wrong sometimes!) and ignoring other points people are making completely (just because a teacher is wrong about something, doesn't mean they don't have knowledge to share! You never know just what you might need to learn to make it in the industry in someway!)

Your teacher is setting you a limit *for the class*, you're setting yourself an even bigger limit because it's for everything you ever draw, aside from quick pencil sketches, it seems.
I understand you have troubles with getting dirty, but you can use gloves and try not to be very messy: there are solutions.

[Kaileighblue]

This whole thread reminds me of people from other sites insisting that their art teachers in High school were wrong for not allowing them to turn in 'Anime' drawings when they were supposed to be studying Van Gogh.

Why can't you do it their way and do what you want on your own time.

[Ivory_Oasis]

Unfortunately, you completely ignored the actual point of my reply to you...which was the story. If you got nothing from that, then I can offer you no more advice.


I thought responding to the story wouldn't be a very good idea... but here goes... *don't kill me!*

I was going to say I see what you are saying, but it just isn't something that would happen to me (because of my issues with working in graphite). I really dislike it. If it were just light sketching, it's ok.. but if it came down to heavy work with the pencil, I would go find a new job VERY quickly (even if I was really good at it). I just don't enjoy it at all. I don't see myself suddenly changing either (I have been like this for as long as I can remember). Clay is even worse! Clay you can't even wash off completely! It stays on your hands for days and gets under your nails!... o.O

Paint is better :) I might work in paint some day (I tried a little while ago). You can work really clean in that.... but it would just be more of a hobby thing trying to get into galleries or something like that, probably a little slow for production work unless it was illustration (would be fun though).

But, yea, me becoming a heavy pencil artist? I would be miserable hehe.

[Ivory_Oasis]

Why can't you do it their way and do what you want on your own time.

I would if it were something small like a few hours. But we are moving into big projects that are going to take a lot of time (and I have the same instructor next term!)...so... doing it twice just isn't an option (I need to work on other things too!)

The time-line for getting to a good enough level is what is really killing me. If I had a few years, slow and steady would be fine... but... rush rush rush! :)

[Dusty]

I thought responding to the story wouldn't be a very good idea... but here goes... *don't kill me!*

I was going to say I see what you are saying, but it just isn't something that would happen to me (because of my issues with working in graphite). I really dislike it. If it were just light sketching, it's ok.. but if it came down to heavy work with the pencil, I would go find a new job VERY quickly (even if I was really good at it). I just don't enjoy it at all. I don't see myself suddenly changing either (I have been like this for as long as I can remember). Clay is even worse! Clay you can't even wash off completely! It stays on your hands for days and gets under your nails!... o.O

Paint is better :) I might work in paint some day (I tried a little while ago). You can work really clean in that.... but it would just be more of a hobby thing trying to get into galleries or something like that, probably a little slow for production work unless it was illustration (would be fun though).

But, yea, me becoming a heavy pencil artist? I would be miserable hehe.

I understand that, but no one is going to hire you to be a "graphite pencil artist". You may find down the road someday that the desired effect that you want can only be achieved by a pencil, though. What I am trying to say is don't write stuff off just because you don't like it now.You can't predict the future.

That's the only point of the story. There are plenty of things in my life that I hated when I did them (example: gouache paint) and even though I don't use the medium regularly, I still learned from it and apply the skills digitally. It may be more subtle that you realize.

And finally:
The time-line for getting to a good enough level is what is really killing me. If I had a few years, slow and steady would be fine... but... rush rush rush!
I'm not attacking you here. I'm just being honest.
This attitude will be your doom.
Seriously, I mean that...and I hope you change for your own sake as an artist.

[Elwell]

We are not saying the teacher's statements are right. We are saying that yOU SHOULD BE DOING WHAT HE'S ASKING YOU TO DO IN CLASS. Ignore what he says about photoshop, pick up the damn pencil, and do his assignments THE WAY HE WANTS THEM TO BE DONE.

Or STOP BITCHING AND DROP THE DAMNED CLASS.
Those are your only two choices. That's why people are getting so fed up with you. What exactly were you looking for here?
Education is unlike any other service industry, in that you're paying to put yourself in a subservient position. If you don't like it, vote with your feet.
I accept I know nothing
Smartest damned thing you've said in the whole thread. Too bad you were being ironic.

[Noah Bradley]

I don't believe I have ever seen someone so adamantly opposed to using a pencil before.

Good luck with that.

[Flake]

I don't believe I have ever seen someone so adamantly opposed to using a pencil before.


Bizarre isn't it.

I hope there isn't an Art History module, he'll have a seizure or something..

[Arshes Nei]

Oh, no no, I'm not saying that the assignments are useless or the classes are useless. I am actually learning a lot (what I want!).... but what I am learning is knowledge about things like perspective, they aren't actually teaching how to use pencil and paper (well, other than the ellipse guide things), but I am learning the pencil and paper as a by-product of having to do it in that medium.

Everyone keeps saying that traditional translates over to digital.


I'm trying to figure out sans the other arguments of your crying over using a pencil, why you ignored my first response.

In the cases of using stencils for drawing circles or ellipses it is like a training condition for you. You might not know the difference as after all PS you can click and drag a circle. However, the difference is the guy who comes over and hold your arm and puts you in the right stance before you pitch a ball. Sooner or later you remember how you're supposed to stand and support yourself before you pitch.

So why does it matter when you can make an ellipse in PS? Not all your circles need to be incredibly stiff when you apply say a circle as a basic shape when constructing organic figures. It's better when you start off with more accurate but good foundational shapes when constructing organic items. So yeah....it does have an advantage over a CLICK N DRAG in PS.

I also mentioned the portability issue first, this was also ignored. You're not going to be able to take your electronic equipment everywhere you go, however, a sketchbook you can probably get away with for more locations.

Let's say you need to go to the zoo to get references of lions. It takes less time to grab a pencil and paper and take notes of the lions moving around, than firing up your laptop to draw them. Hopefully it will be the right time of day so your Laptop doesn't have glare on the screen while you're trying to sketch some lions...but then maybe the lions got tired and moved off to a different area and are away from view by that time and you missed an opportunity for good reference.

You can whine about how he makes you do the assignments, but your major beef was why can't you do a lot of stuff digitally. I'm giving you reasons WHY traditional media may have an advantage.

You are just making it more incredibly difficult than it needs to be. All this time wasted arguing with us, you probably could have gotten the assignments he wanted done in both traditional and digital formats. So which is more productive? Arguing with us, or doing the assignments?

[Ivory_Oasis]

Why is there one path to being an artist?

Why, in order to be a valid artist, must you go down the same road that the college system has dictacted?

It's just another thing that bugs me sometimes.

When I first started drawing, people said I needed to draw from life to learn anything. I, well, didn't (because it was just a hobby and i wanted to have fun :). I drew what I wanted, just out of my head and had fun.

Then, I started getting a little more serious...and I started to want to study anatomy.

Again, everyone said I NEEDED to draw from life. That the only way for me to learn anatomy was to draw a person in different poses.

Well, again I didn't (partially because I didn't have a model to do that with). I drew from pictures a little bit, but mostly just played around sketching people over and over and then looking at an anatomy book before bed sometimes.

I can draw a person pretty ok now (still not amazinggg, but I had a good grasp of anatomy, I am learning ok).

Art history, pencil and paper, step A to steb B...always always, that is how you become an artist. That is THE WAY to do it, you just "can't" any other way.

I think it is pretty safe to say that not all artists had that kind of structured education. That some might have never had art history... that some might have never drawn from life...or even picked up certain mediums (such as chalk or a paintbrush)...

And now you look down at me because I don't like pencils? That I'm not learning art "right" ?

And still! No one has said why! Other than a very cryptic "learning pencil will translate into your digital". Well, yup, I do agree with that actually... but those parts that are translating into digital aren't attributes that pencil alone holds. Shading? That doesn't belong to the pencil. Form? Perspective? Line weight? None of these belong to pencil.

What I have been asking, all along, is what belongs to the pencil alone? That making mistakes too many times will eventually ruin your paper and you need to start over? Well, making mistakes at all and fixinig it you will eventually improve and stop making mistakes... you learn a lot from mistakes, not from the labor to remove it (unless you are just mindlessly making mistakes and not thinking about it / fixing it).

I just don't believe there is one path to knowledge and one "right way" to learn. You can make arguments for WHY you want to do something in a certain order (such as learning anatomy before character concept might be a good idea... but actually, you can concept with poor anatomy, go look at the concept art for bioshock).

Yup, I am in a rush to get to a professional level. Why is that bad? Yup, it will absolutely mean I will not be as well rounded as some other artists who have taken many other things (such as painting classes, color theory classes, art history classes) but hopefully I can get to a point which is good enough to produce for now and fill in the gaps with the rest of my life. It almost seems as if some people are saying I shouldn't try to be a professional until I have had everything (which, just isn't really needed. You don't need to be the greatest artist ever in order to get a job... everyone needs to start somewhere and everyone improves!). I don't see how wanting to improve enough to enter the industry in a year is a bad attitude to have....

Or STOP BITCHING AND DROP THE DAMNED CLASS.
Those are your only two choices. That's why people are getting so fed up with you. What exactly were you looking for here?
Education is unlike any other service industry, in that you're paying to put yourself in a subservient position. If you don't like it, vote with your feet

It isn't. Those aren't my only 2 choices. I can just change the work I do to fit what I need. The class is valuable, it is teaching me many things.

School does not have to be a subservient position. I don't consider myself subservient to my teachers....not even close. I am a professionally skilled person like they are, just in a different subject. Who says you need to be subservient to learn from someone? I will be learning from my peers my entire life, as equals. This isn't highschool or gradeschool where teachers are the baby sitters and need to force a child to do their work with threats of punishment in order for anything to be accomplished... this is 2 adults sharing knowledge.

If they came to me to learn about business, would they have to be subservient to me? Would their opinions and input and current knowledge of the subject suddenly be invalid in the face of my training? Nope, because they are adults....they actually know a few things too (they might be mistaken about a few issues, and that is where a discussion comes in, not a grade-school level of "im the teacher! do what i say and don't talk back!").

(((And yes!! I know! I should go draw instead of posting :P I draw lots... don't worry about that :P )))

[Ivory_Oasis]

(((note!!: sorry for all the quoting.... just doing it so you know who i responding to.... not meaning it in an agressive way or anything))



In the cases of using stencils for drawing circles or ellipses it is like a training condition for you. You might not know the difference as after all PS you can click and drag a circle. However, the difference is the guy who comes over and hold your arm and puts you in the right stance before you pitch a ball. Sooner or later you remember how you're supposed to stand and support yourself before you pitch.

So why does it matter when you can make an ellipse in PS? Not all your circles need to be incredibly stiff when you apply say a circle as a basic shape when constructing organic figures. It's better when you start off with more accurate but good foundational shapes when constructing organic items. So yeah....it does have an advantage over a CLICK N DRAG in PS.

Oh yup, learning how to draw an ellipse is good to know freehand. Using only tools is a crutch.... normally you would sketch it out free-hand and then for something like industrial design, you go back over it with super-clean and accurate shapes (and thats where the click n drag or templates come in).

I'm not sure how much you really gain by using a ruler a couple dozen times during a piece... or an ellipse cut-out 3 times to make the wheels. It's not really helping you with your ellipse making ability. I would guess it is better to just practice doing that over and over and over free-hand (which you can do wherever, its just the muscle control aspect of art).

I also mentioned the portability issue first, this was also ignored. You're not going to be able to take your electronic equipment everywhere you go, however, a sketchbook you can probably get away with for more locations.

Let's say you need to go to the zoo to get references of lions. It takes less time to grab a pencil and paper and take notes of the lions moving around, than firing up your laptop to draw them. Hopefully it will be the right time of day so your Laptop doesn't have glare on the screen while you're trying to sketch some lions...but then maybe the lions got tired and moved off to a different area and are away from view by that time and you missed an opportunity for good reference.


I totally agree with you there! :) Lugging around equipment all over just doesn't work in a lot of sittuations. Thats why being able to sketch is important (though, i dont really do any sketching outside still...but very possible i might!). Digital translates back into traditional though, if you know how to sketch in digital...picking up a pencil and sketchng it out on a pad of paper is no problem.

You are just making it more incredibly difficult than it needs to be. All this time wasted arguing with us, you probably could have gotten the assignments he wanted done in both traditional and digital formats. So which is more productive? Arguing with us, or doing the assignments?

This is my downtime! :) And the really lengthy projects haven't been assigned yet. The one we have now isn't that that bad (a few hours) but later on it is going to be major time sinks. Just makes me go "grrr".

All drawing and nothing else will drive you crazy! I'm not a robot... I still play games now and then too! :P

[Ivory_Oasis]

lol wow, i think i should work on making my posts shorter hehe. I guess I am just talky today :)

[Elwell]

(((And yes!! I know! I should go draw instead of posting :P I draw lots... don't worry about that :P )))

Here, let me help you...