Confessions of a Terrible Oil Painter

[Pezz]

-RANT-

So I'm subscribing to this idea that with enough hard work, study and dedication one can learn many things - no obstacle too big etc.

With that said, I've been taking an oil painting class. I'm pretty terrible at it!

There's so much to learn, and yet so much I am learning at the same time. We started off doing hue/value/tint/shade/tone charts and then applying it to a cylinder... then still lifes, now a self portrait. I did OK but man oh man, I feel like my medium is holding me back!

I think I'm a far better 'draughtsman' than I am a painter, but I am trying hard to make that change. My self portrait looks TERRIBLE! I painted a yellow ochre underpainting with LOTS of liquin mixed in, but it turned out splotchy and completely disintegrated the integrity of my awesome drawing.

Then I tried to glaze on skin tone, but it looked chalky! I then found it this is becuase A) I used too much white and it became a 'scumbley mess' and B) I presumed my skin tone to be a much ligher pale type color than it actually is, when in actuality it's this amalgam of pinks and oranges and yellows with a little bit of white. And C) Flake White > Titanium White for this sort of thing, I swear to god.. painting is like a hug experiment half the time. I get great guideance from my teacher but most of this seems like a "feel whats best for you" deal.

My shadows are too black and red, my highlights too chalky. Trying to find the happy middle here! I think I may need to throw in the towel and start again, it's TERRIBLE. I just want to burn this painting.

You could say I'm frustrated because usually I can pick something up rather quickly; mine actually looks better and more well thought out than everyone else's in class, but I hate the way mine looks.

Phew, feel better now guys, thanks. Any oil painters want to chime in and tell me to HTFU and paint more? :)

[TASmith]

Post the work and we can help.

[aefx]

To a degree I can empathize with you. I'm trying to develop my skill at oil painting and am running into no end of problems. I think however after reading your post that there are some very promising things you can take away from this. You seem to have a very good understanding of _what_ is wrong with your painting and you just need to figure out the _why_. This is a much better situation to be in than not knowing what's wrong with your painting other than knowing it's just plain wrong.

Regarding being a better draughtsman than a painter, I dare say you've probably put many more hours into the former than the latter. To that all I can say is keep doing what you're doing, it sounds like you're on the right path even though it's a frustrating one... if it was easy it wouldn't be worth while ;)

[Derek the Usurper]

I picked up a paint brush for the first time back in February of this year. I can relate to what you're saying almost exactly. When you first start, it seems like a terribly inaccurate medium which holds you back and screws up your drawings.

Half a year later, I'm now almost more comfortable with oil paint than I am with a pencil. I'm not better at painting than drawing yet, but I've crossed the barrier I once had simply by doing it a lot.

I'd recommend doing grisailles before getting into color, especially flesh color. Value is more important than color, so being able to establish a good painting of contrasting values should be the first thing you learn.

[CCThrom]

Man o man, am I in the same boat...

The thing to remember is that it's frustrating for the same reasons that drawing is frustrating for people who start from scratch later in life. That is to say it's a lot of NEW skills all at once... and you don't have the luxury of having ALREADY done the foundation work.

So your first attempts look terrible, great! Join the club! That's learning, so crank out some more terrible paintings. I'm working with James Gurney's "Imaginative Realism" book right now, and in the studio equipment section he describes "Gallery Flambeau" which is a home-made solar-powered incinerator for his bad paintings. I don't destroy my bad artwork, I just drop it in the drawer with everything else. But maybe for some folks burning bad paintings is cathartic.

Everyone keeps telling me 'if you can draw you can paint' and 'it's easier to go from being a good draftsman to a good painter than the other way round'. I'm keeping those thoughts in my head as a mantra right now.

Best I can say is keep at it! And we can all make lots of terrible paintings together. You'll either learn and improve or you'll decide that oils aren't where you want to invest your time and effort... either way it's good.

[dpaint]

I sounds like you are making progress and you just have to keep at it. Everyone has a different approach to learning things. It sounds like you are struggling with color and value relationships. Why not try just painting in black and white for awhile? Since you are a good draughtsman, painting without color allows you to only focus on the medium of oil and its control. Of course, its not as exciting as painting with color but you might get there faster than trying to control a new medium, learning to mix value, and learning to see color correctly.

[Noah Bradley]

Oil painting ain't easy.

Just keep at it. :)

[CKLamb]

Always remember that you are moving towards accuracy. If things look crazy off, that just means you need to keep applying paint until it starts to clarify. And, as a neophyte, you need to learn to walk away from the painting every now and then. Let it dry and come back for another layer. I know it's inspiring to see some of the alla prima work around here, but that'll come with experience, take it layer by layer and day by day.

[ijacobs9]

*Disclaimer*I am definately no professional, or even remotely skilled, but sounds to me like your trying to run before learning to walk and your finding yourself falling...

My advice is to start with basics, keep working at your faults and one day (couple years later) someone else will tell you your work doesnt look too shabby and you'll realise all the hard work has paid off.

Another thing id sugest is to do studies of the works of the old master (Leonardo, Rembrandt, Delacroix etc.)...worked for me.

[Ian Miles]

>>but it turned out splotchy and completely disintegrated the integrity of my awesome drawing.

Painting is not drawing. Drawing you play with lines. You put a line down a time.

But painting,
first is different tool.
second is different medium
third is different surface to apply the medium

So, you have to understand how painting WORKS. Drawing is more or less, put the correct measures, and then, put the correct values on it. You start from lightly and loose, and adds from there to more and more complex. More shadows, more details...

Painting is more like a sculpting with clay. You start from bold, and loose, and start to put more values, and more colors, and more details. BUT you have to keep separated your background from your foreground, you have to understand that in painting, you build from bottom to top. You are covering your previous work, and taking advantage of it. And the most important is, in oil, you can redone your painting again and again and again... putting more work in top of what you have already done. (please, be SURE your foundation drawing / placement is right. Otherwise you just are rendering a deform drawing, AND NO, IT CAN´T BE FIXED)

When drawing you just erase.

>>>>
or you'll decide that oils aren't where you want to invest your time and effort...

There was a time when I though the same. But as the timed passed, I started to realize how powerful and flexible (and enjoyable) the oils can be. They are so flexible that most of the people, when more or less master it, they don´t need any other medium, because every imaginable thing can be acomplished with just oils and a few brushes.

http://images.asia.ru/img/alibaba/photo/51045236/Oil_Painting__Ballet_Class_.jpg

[alesoun]

HTFU (?) and paint more! :P

Switching media is a bit like going from an automatic car to a stick-shift. You can't batter the way YOU want to operate onto it... you have to take a little time and listen to how it wants to work.

Don't be so impatient with yourself; you'll get there...

[The Pariano]

If I could give you a concrete piece of advice, even if it may just be my opinion- a yellow ochre under painting would be asking for trouble. If you want something warm possibly try transparent oxide red? The yellow can tend to be too overpowering and then when you try and compensate in your glazes you run into a problem.

[Pezz]

@ TAS Smith:

I will post some soon, I have to photograph the pieces at school on Monday.. since some are still drying!


@ alesoun:

HTFU stands for "harden the fuck up", something I picked up from the bicycling community. As in "I hate going up this hill, aw man maybe we should turn around.." and you reply "HTFU freddie, peddle and puke!"

@The Pariano:

I think I might stick to a traditional sort of grisaille right now, it's what I've had the most success with so far. Little bit of liquin into Ivory Black and Titanium White, let it dry, paint fat over lean. I may also experiment with doing this with acrylic paints instead, if for no other reason than to expedite the grisaille/underpainting process. I really can't stand a white canvas and doing things in a 'paint by numbers' fashion, so I either need to crutch on imprimatura or grisaille.

-----

So with an oil painting, I want to lay in areas and sharpen as I go along? Kind of like laying out large tonal areas with the broad side of a piece of charcoal and then using an eraser to pick out details and sharpening with a harder piece? I guess it's just counter-intuitive now because it's not what I'm used to.

I really love that buttery feeling that the medium gives. It is such a pleasure to work with, but at the same time infuriating. I need to learn what works for me.

I am thinking of doing a color mixing exericse by printing out pictures of people, gessoing a little bristol, pasting them on the bristol, and attempting to create a 'color swatch' of their skin tones.

[Arshes Nei]

There is quite a bit of trial and error when it comes to traditional painting. That's why color theory and knowing how to mix paint is so important. Sometimes it's not about "mixing" (ie mixing paints together) but placing the right colors next to each other for visual mixing.

One thing I'm learning is that the less I use "black and white" and learn to mix 2 colors first, I end up with better results. That means mixing for example the right kind of primary with another to get the secondary color. Once you start dealing with 3 colors (including white/black) it gets messy. So learning how to create the right combination of colors with 2 is more important. That doesn't mean I don't use black and white at all, it's just about learning how to mix without them first.

It's important to setup a palette of colors first then realizing later you need a color.

Ian Miles, Painting IS Drawing! I wish people would realize it's the same. It's not LINE Drawing, it's MASS Drawing. But both are two kinds of drawing. Harold Speed is great on learning about art.

[Pezz]

If you'd like to know which paints I own... perhaps you guys can suggest replacements/additions?

- Cadmium Red Medium
- Cadmium Red Hue
- Cadmium Yellow Light
- Cadmium Yellow Hue
- Cobalt Blue
- Prussian Blue
- Dioxazine Purple
- Alizarin Crimson
- Permanent Green Light (Could not find Cadmium Green)
- Cadmium Orange
- Ivory Black
- Titanium White
- Flake White
- Yellow Ochre
- Burnt Sienna
- Raw Sienna

I thin with: Mineral Spirits or Turpenoid
Other Stuff: Liquin Original, Liquin Fine Detail

I use: Chunking bristle brushes. Are there smoother brushes I can use also, or just chunky bristle brushes?

[Sidharth Chaturvedi]

Big palette O.O. I'd stay away from the cadmiums for a while and do some color charts with just yellow ochre/burnt sienna/ivory black, maybe some venetian or indian red. You can get a pretty wide range with those colors and they're ideal for painting figures. There's enough to learn without having to deal with cad red drowning everything.

Also, no liquin in the bottom layers, add more medium as you build up paint. If you can, try using just the paint for now, learn how it handles on its own before messing with it.

Oh, and about the chalkiness, titanium white will overwhelm your colors faster than flake, and it's a bit stiffer. You need to use more flake to lighten the same amount though. Both are awesome in their own way. If your lights are getting chalky too fast, just start at a mid tone and build up your light layers slowly.

[karmazon]

>>but it turned out splotchy and completely disintegrated the integrity of my awesome drawing.

Painting is not drawing. Drawing you play with lines. You put a line down a time.

But painting,
first is different tool.
second is different medium
third is different surface to apply the medium

So, you have to understand how painting WORKS. Drawing is more or less, put the correct measures, and then, put the correct values on it. You start from lightly and loose, and adds from there to more and more complex. More shadows, more details...

Painting is more like a sculpting with clay. You start from bold, and loose, and start to put more values, and more colors, and more details. BUT you have to keep separated your background from your foreground, you have to understand that in painting, you build from bottom to top. You are covering your previous work, and taking advantage of it. And the most important is, in oil, you can redone your painting again and again and again... putting more work in top of what you have already done. (please, be SURE your foundation drawing / placement is right. Otherwise you just are rendering a deform drawing, AND NO, IT CAN´T BE FIXED)

When drawing you just erase.

>>>>
or you'll decide that oils aren't where you want to invest your time and effort...

There was a time when I though the same. But as the timed passed, I started to realize how powerful and flexible (and enjoyable) the oils can be. They are so flexible that most of the people, when more or less master it, they don´t need any other medium, because every imaginable thing can be acomplished with just oils and a few brushes.

http://images.asia.ru/img/alibaba/photo/51045236/Oil_Painting__Ballet_Class_.jpg

I disagree. The process you described for painting is the same as the process for drawing, minus the color. As Ingres said, "Drawing includes three and a half quarters of the content of painting... Drawing contains everything, except the hue."

[Arshes Nei]

Possibly a Cerulean Blue PB35, A Hansa/Lemon Yellow (cool yellow) PY 3 (Unless your Camdmium Yellow Light is a PY 35/PY 37 then disregard), Ultramarine (Blue) PB 29.

You might want to try a Quinacridone Red/Violet PV19 instead of Alizarin Crimson for a "Cool Red" if you can't no worries (There's sometimes a lightfastness debate over the color). If you run out of Prussian blue, you can also go for a Phtalho Blue PB15. If you tint Phthalo Blue you can get a Cerulean Blue, and it's good for mixing vivid greens. (Be aware it's a stainer)

Ultramarine Blue is a good darkening color.

(I'm putting pigment numbers because manufactures tend to vary the names so look at the tube to look for these numbers).

Also Sith is correct about limiting the palette for figure drawing.

[Ian Miles]

I disagree. The process you described for painting is the same as the process for drawing, minus the color. As Ingres said, "Drawing includes three and a half quarters of the content of painting... Drawing contains everything, except the hue."

Maybe you´re right, but I have a totally different felling when I´m painting. Even when the foundation is the same in both techniques?. When painting you are dealing (I think) with much more than when you draw. So for me, it´s the same just in the beginning, when you are placing your features, but from that, Is different. (Even you have to mix your next stroke! :rocker: )

And man, that´s a big pallet. ¿Know you can mix any color with just...?
Titanium White
Cadmium Yellow
Cadmium Orange
Cadmium Red
Transparent Oxide Red
Veridian
Sky Blue
Ultramarine Deep
?

I have black too in mine, but it´s because I´m so used to have it, but in reality, you can come with black mixing all the darkest of that pallet.

At first, you really need to limit your pallet. Because I´f you are not familiar with the medium, you are gonna try to catch every microscopic detail with new mixes (was my case anyway), and, as a rule, everything that is in your pallet, end in your canvas. (my case anyway). ¿That´s why your paintings ends messy...?

Oh, and don´t forget to do your color charts as a foundation exercise, because color is a gigantic subject, so you need to start from the very beginning before you start to alter or add or remove colors.

This is one of MagicMan posts, it´s pretty insightful >>>>>>

Yo Andy, the color charts are extremely tiring - I'm not going to say tedious because there is amazing satisfaction in doing and completing them.

No, there was no digital reference, and there is a specific method of doing them - these are done strictly for oils since I am going to start teaching myself oil painting sometime soon, but they teach you lessons about color and training your eye to identify color by looking at something.

They are also used as reference, so that if you see something with a certain hue but arent sure of how to re-create it with color mixing, you can refer to the sheet and mix away.

The method in which you create the sheets is this:

You take your entire oil palette, and start by creating the first sheet by taking each color and whitening each color down. The number of levels you do is up to you, most people do 5 levels of white additive, but I wanted to go that extra step further and do 7, which is more difficult, and I'll admit, some of the sheets aren't perfect, but I'll do them all again in a year or so, this was the first time i have done them, my palette is sure to change between now and then.

So anyway, each color will be whitened down, but adding various amounts of white to each, the amount will vary from pigment to pigment, some such as cadmium yellow have a very over-powering pigment and thus you need to add more. This is part of the learning process, understanding how each pigment behaves.

The first color in the colum should be pure color, the final square should be just off white with whichever color is used. The middle color (this is why an odd number of levels is always used) should be a tone between the lightest and darkest - and so and and so forth for each color.

The second sheet is where it gets more enjoyable, you start off with the initial column being the first unmixed color, again whiten it down 7 levels. The next column is that first color + the second color but with the first color still predominating - there is no set amount for this mixing, since as before, each pigment has an inherent level of being overpowering...mix as much as you need to alter the color basically. Then, as usual, whiten down each mixture 7 levels. This teaches you about estimating and how much paint it takes to cover a certain amount of real estate (canvas).

The third column is the first color mixed with the third color, with the first color predominating...and the cycle continues until all the colors have been mixed - if you have 13 colors as I do, you will end up with 14 sheets, 15 colors, then 16 sheets, etc.

Using this technique, you should be able to cover just about all the hues you will require in painting.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/2414849797_2282de3353_o.jpg

It takes a great deal of patience, so stick at it, and you will discover things not only about color, but about yourself too.

Btw - I learnt this method of swatch making from Richard Schmidt's Alla Prima: Everything I Know About Painting, which is an excellent book and i highly recommend.
>>>>>>>>>>>

Look at this one too, you´ll need to cover all your bases, so yes, it´s a lot of work. ;)

http://magicsnakeoil.blogspot.com/2009/06/color-theory-charts.html

[Arshes Nei]

Ian, can you please define "Sky Blue" what's the pigment color number? It's like I said earlier there are names for colors people won't find with different manufactures. Help a Pezzle out ;)

[Ian Miles]

Hum.
I use TITAN extrafine, this brand is from Europe. It´s not cheap but it´s not the ultra-highest quality possible (you know I´m pooor :p ).

So the colors are (as the factory says)
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/5202/palet.jpg

And the chemicals used for this sky blue are:

74160
74260
77891

Phthalocyanine 74000-74999 Category: Phthalocyanines
Inorganic pigments 77000-77999 Category: Inorganic pigments

Hope it helps.

[Chris Bennett]

If you'd like to know which paints I own... perhaps you guys can suggest replacements/additions?

- Cadmium Red Medium
- Cadmium Red Hue
- Cadmium Yellow Light
- Cadmium Yellow Hue
- Cobalt Blue
- Prussian Blue
- Dioxazine Purple
- Alizarin Crimson
- Permanent Green Light (Could not find Cadmium Green)
- Cadmium Orange
- Ivory Black
- Titanium White
- Flake White
- Yellow Ochre
- Burnt Sienna
- Raw Sienna

I thin with: Mineral Spirits or Turpenoid
Other Stuff: Liquin Original, Liquin Fine Detail

I use: Chunking bristle brushes. Are there smoother brushes I can use also, or just chunky bristle brushes?

First off that way too many colours!
Red, yellow, blue and white will do everything you need.
Even better than this try a restricted palette of:

Black (ivory)
White (titanium)
Yellow Ochre
Burnt Sienna

This is a very muted version of the red, yellow and blue version with black mixed with varying degrees of white standing in for blue.

Now, the reason for this is so that you concentrate on the nature of this sticky coloured mud we call oil paint and to see how it behaves.
Learn to see your ideas in terms of paint, not in terms of coloured in shapes with lines around them. You will see the effect of scumbling light paint over dark paint - watch how a grey turns almost blue when glazed or scumbled over a dark brown.
In other words, it will get you thinking in terms of the 'alchemy' of working practically with oil paint.

[Ninjerk]

When I first started oil painting, my teacher started us out using only Burnt Umber (Winton, the WN student grade) and doing a simple light/dark value separation on a gray toned canvas (using very thin acrylic paint, try to get to 30-50% average tone). After light/dark separation pick out your deepest darks, core of shadow (terminator), and reflection lights.
Refrain from using white in the darks and you can do a lot lot lot lot lot of paintings without even squeezing any black paint out of the tube.
Any dark, transparent blue mixed with Burnt Umber will do fine for most darks.
When in doubt, go darker because it's harder to clean up or paint over areas with white paint in them.
Buy decent brushes (again, the Winton hog bristle brushes will do. they don't last very long though) and keep up with them. Wash them thoroughly after each use and THROW THEM AWAY when they get short enough to change the way you're painting with them.

Most of those are my teacher's wisdom (though he won't claim them) and one or two are things I've found useful as I've been learning.

[bhanu]

I need to learn what works for me.

I have seen that alot of times, you have to learn to work for something than the other way around. I also loved oils but the medium was too slow for me, actually my impulses really ruin it for me.
I think its good at first , if you keep your pallette(colors), forms, tones, edges
under the range of 4-5.
4 colors- Black (ivory), White (titanium), Yellow Ochre,Burnt Sienna(like CHRIS said)
4 tones/planes- depending on the angles of plane from the light source(highlight to shadow)
4 edges - Hard, medium, soft and blurry(theres a great tutorial by elwell for edges)

I know this doesnt have much to do with oils but I have seen when one gives importance to them a lotta other problems subside.
There are other advices like , keep the strokes vital, too much scumbling ruins/deadens it , its better to wipe the whole wrong stroke off then to try to work it by mixing this or merging that.
And the fact that you feel good with drawing also puts more expectations when you paint, I know they say painting is drawing with brushes, but its takes a lot of time and hard work to understand that concept. Honestly, at the beginning, the drawing always abstracts the forms/reality and painting makes the reality tangible.
Keep with it.
Take care.

[Elwell]

4 colors- Black (ivory), White (titanium), Yellow Ochre,Burnt Sienna(like CHRIS said)
I'd recommend a stronger opaque earth red, like venetian or indian, instead of the burnt sienna for a palette like this.

[Chris Bennett]

I'd recommend a stronger opaque earth red, like venetian or indian, instead of the burnt sienna for a palette like this.

Yes, thats a pretty good idea particularly if your Burnt Sienna is on the overly transparent side which happens with many colour merchants. Venetian Red is bloody opaque though! - it's like liquid brick dust. You might need the help of Mars black rather than the more transparent and warm Ivory black to help you out with this combo.

Bhanu - great advice in your post - particularly in that last paragraph of yours! So few people understand the principle of how drawings are naturally abstractions whereas the implications of 'big' mediums like oil or acrylic is one of naturalism. One is always fighting a war against the overt onset of naturalism with these mediums - how to deliver the transcendental implications of the 'otherness' in the adstraction natural to drawing in a medium like oil paint which constantly wants to remind you of the corporeal. Many thanks for stating this!

[Elwell]

Yes, thats a pretty good idea particularly if your Burnt Sienna is on the overly transparent side which happens with many colour merchants. Venetian Red is bloody opaque though! - it's like liquid brick dust. You might need the help of Mars black rather than the more transparent and warm Ivory black to help you out with this combo.

For a beginner, the power of an opaque earth red or even a cadmium red is less of a problem than the strength of mars black, since they tend to over-rely on black for darkening anyway. The transparency, warmth, and lower tinting strength of ivory are an advantage in this case.

[Black Spot]

It has been many years since I used oils, but I used to draw the picture with thinned down burnt umber and white. When I considered it okay, I'd scrape off any excess with a palette knife leaving a ghost behind. Then you just have to worry about mixing the colours right.

[Pezz]

Alright, so if I am taking things away from this thread properly (and I may not be - I haven't slept in over 24 hours)...

- I need an earthy red, like Venetian or Indian Red. Immediately.
- Stick with Ivory Black for now.
- Work in a limited palette (Ivory Black, Titanium White, Yellow Ochre, Indian Red/Burnt Sienna?) - can you guys elaborate on this? Do you mean to paint observationally in this limited palette?
- Pick up a nice Ultramarine color to work with eventually (I guess Cobalt has its own special carcinogenic place)
- Besides my class work for Painting I, do color swatches/charts in my own time
- Experiment with swatches, scumbling and glazing various colors over them to see what visual effects happen
- Don't use so much damn liquin in my beginning layers? (I thought you didn't want to paint too thin over thicker, fatter paint?)


realize I'm in a class, so some of my palette was what we had to buy for class. We started off doing still lifes where the local colors of the objects were actually the tubes of paints we bought so we could start to kind of grasp different concepts. However we're beyond that and into portraiture now... sort of trying to squeeze a lot into a little community college class. I see the way he does portraits and it confuses me, at first it looked like he painted it all in 'predator vision', lots of just luminous color all over his face... then he went over it with some sort of mixture involving flake white and it just tied it all together.

I am noticing human skin is this collection of rich colors instead of having so much white mixed into it. I guess I just PRESUMED white was mixed into it so much, but in actuality I'm seeing lots of different orange hues and warm pink hues and yellows...

But yeah, never a yellow ochre underpainting again... ugh

[Sidharth Chaturvedi]

Alright, so if I am taking things away from this thread properly (and I may not be - I haven't slept in over 24 hours)...

- I need an earthy red, like Venetian or Indian Red. Immediately.
- Stick with Ivory Black for now.
- Work in a limited palette (Ivory Black, Titanium White, Yellow Ochre, Indian Red/Burnt Sienna?) - can you guys elaborate on this? Do you mean to paint observationally in this limited palette?
- Pick up a nice Ultramarine color to work with eventually (I guess Cobalt has its own special carcinogenic place)
- Besides my class work for Painting I, do color swatches/charts in my own time
- Experiment with swatches, scumbling and glazing various colors over them to see what visual effects happen
- Don't use so much damn liquin in my beginning layers? (I thought you didn't want to paint too thin over thicker, fatter paint?)


realize I'm in a class, so some of my palette was what we had to buy for class. We started off doing still lifes where the local colors of the objects were actually the tubes of paints we bought so we could start to kind of grasp different concepts. However we're beyond that and into portraiture now... sort of trying to squeeze a lot into a little community college class. I see the way he does portraits and it confuses me, at first it looked like he painted it all in 'predator vision', lots of just luminous color all over his face... then he went over it with some sort of mixture involving flake white and it just tied it all together.

I am noticing human skin is this collection of rich colors instead of having so much white mixed into it. I guess I just PRESUMED white was mixed into it so much, but in actuality I'm seeing lots of different orange hues and warm pink hues and yellows...

But yeah, never a yellow ochre underpainting again... ugh

The limited palette will give you much more color range than you think at first. Strictly speaking, you dont need more than those to do most figures and still lifes, and I've seen some gorgeous landscapes done with it. So yeah, paint observationally with it. Doing the color charts (mixing all 3 colors with each other in varying amounts and then mixing to white) will really help you understand what your options are before you actually get to the painting.

Generally, you paint thick over thin paint yes, but that doesn't mean the bottom layers are thin because of the medium, you just use less paint. Especially if you're working wet on wet, you need to use more and more paint with each layer to prevent your brush from taking paint off the canvas, and your touch needs to get more delicate. I tend not to use much medium, but as a rule you need to keep it to a minimum in the bottom layers and add more as you build paint, it'll also make the handling easier as the paint gets thicker. I'm not sure how any of it relates to drying time. Also, dont drown your paint in liquin unless you're glazing, try to keep as much pigment in the mixtures as possible.

[steve kim]

you say your drawing is awesome. but it is not awesome. your painting is just highlighting your lack of drawing ability... which btw is fine because you are starting out, going to get better, etc. i'm just trying to underscore the importance of drawing in all things.

[bhanu]

you say your drawing is awesome. but it is not awesome. your painting is just highlighting your lack of drawing ability... which btw is fine because you are starting out, going to get better, etc. i'm just trying to underscore the importance of drawing in all things.
WEll thats the things with someone whos still early into learning . One thinks that, just by capturing the overlapping forms that form the contours, one is a good draughtsman.
I realise now how bad just thinking that can be . It seems that now I am again learning to draw. Hmff.

Drawing ,IMO , an solid/lucid dream or idea which is the basis as well as the cause of the reality that is painting.
how to deliver the transcendental implications of the 'otherness' in the adstraction natural to drawing in a medium like oil paint which constantly wants to remind you of the corporeal
Like you said, in a dream you tend to believe everything , just hints and exaggeration can do the job.
Damn I gotta go now, more thoughts later.

Keep painting and drawin people. :)

[Arshes Nei]

A limited palette will help you strategize and actually think about how to mix paint. It will make you think more on the properties of those colors too. Rembrandt did it, so did Vermeer ;)

[Chris Bennett]

- Work in a limited palette (Ivory Black, Titanium White, Yellow Ochre, Indian Red/Burnt Sienna?) - can you guys elaborate on this? Do you mean to paint observationally in this limited palette?


All the other stuff you mention is spot on as far as I can see Pezzle. But to answer this question, 'yes'. Even if you have a bright blue in front of you.
Reason:
Painting cannot replicate the surface of what you see anyway - the spectral highlights on a glass or even a face are way brighter than the titanium white you have, and the deepest shadows give back far less light than your neat ivory black. The optical effect of texture is near impossible to replicate without spending thousands of hours on a couple of square inches. Most importanrly of all, we look at the world in 3D which is constantly on the move even when still.
In painting we are transposing what we see, not copying. Transposing so that we can reinvent it as a surface covered in paint. This is so whether you consider Vermeer or Cezanne, Rembrandt or Picasso, Alex Kanevsky or Andrew Wyeth.

So, you figure out how to paint the bright blue by not thinking about the bright blue as such but rather the relationship of the bright blue to the brightest red say - you then find two mixtures that when seen together produce the same sense of relationship to each other equal to the one they have in reality even though in isolation they are quite different.

You are painting the relationships between properties, not the properties themselves. Just like when we read a string of words we understand the meaning by their relationship to each other. Transpose those words into French and the meaning still remains the same as long as adjustments are made to grammar and, to use the games industry parlance, localisation. It is the importance of the translator comprehending the meaning that is the reason that automatic translation programmes don't work. The camera, like the computer program, only recognises properties in isolation and therefore understands nothing.

[sfa]

Just keep painting, Pezzle. It'll get easier with time. If you're curious, you can take a peek at my sketchbook to see progress from godawful to halfway decent. 95% of the color portraits I've posted there in the past year and a half were done with at most four colors - the "Zorn" palette of titanium white, ivory black, cadmium red, and yellow ochre. You can get a fairly accurate depiction of what you see in front of you with such a limited set of colors, because like Chris Bennett said, it's the relationship between the colors that counts, moreso than the actual color itself. Ask yourself, is that patch next to this one warmer? Cooler? Lighter? Darker? Where is the darkest dark, the warmest warm, the coolest cool, the lightest light? When you've determined those extremes, how then can you structure the rest of the painting to fit within these parameters?

Everyone on this thread gave really good advice - and I'd like to add to the discussion by showing it in action. These are paintings my instructor Ignat Ignatov did as class demos this year - he used only four colors, the same as I mentioned above. Look at how much information and feeling you can convey with such a limited palette!

Keep going and good luck!

[Pezz]

you say your drawing is awesome. but it is not awesome. your painting is just highlighting your lack of drawing ability... which btw is fine because you are starting out, going to get better, etc. i'm just trying to underscore the importance of drawing in all things.

It's just such a new way of thinking to see painting as another form of drawing, at least to me. My inability to paint at the moment probably highlights my flaws in defining form just as much as it highlights my flaws in understanding color and mixing paint. All I was really trying to say is that I feel like I can accomplish so much more right now holding an Staedler 2mm lead holder than a chunking hog bristle filbert.

Going to try the limited palette... starting my project over. I also have to try a landscape for class. Woo, great.

Now that I am where I need to be... I'll add more to this post!

I can sort of isolate a problem now that you all have mentioned using a limited palette. With such a huge collection of paints I am completely intimidated by my color palette. I stare down at all these super-saturated, beautiful colors that almost glow off of my now neutral colored wood palette (the oil paint seems to 'finish' it with this dirty gray-brown patina and makes it glossy). I squeeze out a small dollop of cadmium red and it just glows - I adore that pigment.

Also, I think my brushes are probably mediocre/ok quality. I got the set for 30 bucks of five bristle brushes. I've only lost one bristle so far, and never have any laying behind in my painting... so that's good I think! The ferrules are also not loose at all. Can you also use Sable brushes in oils if you are glaze painting? Because the bristle brushes leave a texture where I want the color to go on smoothly.

Once again thanks to everyone for their advice. I will do some studies soon.. maybe some little self portraits and some swatches?

I am just nervous now because I'm trying to get a portfolio together for art school, but have nothing colored! It's all life drawing so far ha ha :| IN fact you can probably just say color is intimidating!

[TASmith]

sfa, Ignat's your instructor? Where do you go to school?

[kelly x]

This is an amazing thread, subscribing now... I wrote some things but they got eaten by the cyber gods.
Basically, just limited color pallet but it's already been said so well!!
Thanks for this thread and what are the thoughts on gesso?? or the pre base here??

[kelly x]

Chris, I'm going to try to paint like this!! Just a goal now, well said.



You are painting the relationships between properties, not the properties themselves. Just like when we read a string of words we understand the meaning by their relationship to each other. Transpose those words into French and the meaning still remains the same as long as adjustments are made to grammar and, to use the games industry parlance, localization. It is the importance of the translator comprehending the meaning that is the reason that automatic translation programmes don't work. The camera, like the computer program, only recognizes properties in isolation and therefore understands nothing.

[sfa]

sfa, Ignat's your instructor? Where do you go to school?

I attend the sessions courses at LAAFA. Ignat teaches part time there.

[TASmith]

Damn... nice!

[Spirit]

Just wanted to say a huge thank you to everyone who posted all of the information here, I've copied it all down to use in the future when I start to use oil paints (I'm quite far away from this stage at the moment, but I don't see the harm in getting the knowledge and information in advance). Reading the posts in this single thread has helped me to learn many things, and not just about oil painting. I'll definitely be favouriting this thread as well for future reference incase my notes go missing, thanks again :D

[DSillustration]

lol!
I can totally sympathize with your first post.

When I started oil painting, it was the first time I was really BAD at something I wanted to do.
I was always a decent drawer (or at least my aspirations were as limited as my abilities), but when I picked up a brush, I knew what I wanted, but I just couldn't do it!
It's was like wrestling a lion and trying to get him to dance in the process.

All I can offer you is this:
After about 5 years of intense practice, I finally got decent enough that I could paint what I wanted without fear.
And in those 5 years, I did not have CA (or the rest of the internet for that matter) like you now do.
You'll do fine.
Just keep at it, and eventually you'll tame the beast.

In retrospect, the struggle was the fun part.

[steve kim]

your brushes are fine.

[Ian Miles]

And something about the paint. If you have none, buy them one by one. You can bankruptcy if you buy the whole set at once. Go little by little. White and any color can be totally satisfying. (And remember canvases are not as cheap as paper)

[CCThrom]

Just went through to thank everybody... this is turning into a very informative thread, and just what I need right now.

Thanks for starting this one, Pezzle!

[Elwell]

Some other threads people might find useful...
Aaron Coberly shows what you can do with a limited palette (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99774)
Seedling's Big Oil Painting thread (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98647)

[Pezz]

Thank you Elwell, I am also considering getting El Coro's portraiture video from MB DVD.

[Ninjerk]

Instead of using sable brushes, try painting like you would render in a drawing. If you're doing your darks in the beginning (the only way I know how, don't know any other way), brush lightly with a size 4 or larger brush perpendicular (or close to perpendicular) to the direction you painted the original strokes before moving on to the light (in fact, I do this after my separation of lights and darks and each time I move to a new "step"). Eliminating the streakiness of the paint in areas that you don't need attention paid to (those dark areas that are dark as a result of lack of light) can reduce what my teacher calls visual "noise" or "vibration."

"If Liz is playing beautiful classical piano music, and Matt is right next to her playing a rock and roll music it is hard to appreciate what Liz is doing."

[kelly x]

Another great one for oil painting DVD is James Kei, I own it and it has helped a lot, I'll get Coro's too, I got to see him paint live and he's very quick, sure and amazing!! We really need one from Greg Manchess painting people, please.

[Arshes Nei]

I think you meant Shawn Barber, not James Kei. Though Kei's people demonstration is nice, it was done in PS....and not to forget Dan Dos Santo's painting DVD. Packed full of hours.

[kelly x]

Arshes Nei, I did mean James Kei, I know it was painted in photoshop but he paints in photoshop like an oil painter, it helped me in oil painting a lot believe it or not. His brush strokes are laid down just like oil and the result is oil.
I know this is a thread about oil specific but I find the mediums cross over other than the fact that one needs real oil.
I just bought El Coro's down load too, yes, oil oil... not to derail but this thread but both mediums help to learn the sense of oil. Dan's is also great, he's a great teacher. They're all good, I just got Jason Manley and Zhanglu also, it's PS and this guy is a traditional oil painter, it is great for structure, style and creating out of your head. They're all good for learning to paint.

[Enydimon]

Excellent information in here. I really need to get back into oils.

[Pezz]

Well I haven't enough money to buy all the downloads and DVDs in one shot since my car's in the shop again, but I'll be sure to pick up Barber's and DdS' demos. However, I did pick up Coro's Alla Prima portrait download last night, and I really enjoyed what I saw. He uses a pretty big palette, but I think I will stick with the Titanium White - Ivory Black - Cad Red - Yellow Ochre palette for now... mainly because I have Cad Red right now, and Indian Red is on the shopping list for next week.

I think I am going to re-do my school assignment self portrait in this limited palette. I am quite behind on my assignments because I got frustrated and refused to turn in what I called "utter crap" which sucks for me, I think it would've been better to turn something in on time than wait and turn in a good piece late :\ My mistake. I hope he doesn't get mad that I'm limiting my palette like this...

Also, I noticed that señor Coro paints with no solvents during the actual process. He uses refined linseed oil -I am considering getting some, I don't know how much I like liquin so far. Do you think I should try the Alla Prima route or should I, in this level of my early studies, stick to slow and careful?

[kelly x]

Pezzel, Use the route that you feel you can and want to do, knowing your personality I vote Alla Prima for you and just get it done, you'll be fine :):):) I always vote for "go for it".
You should print out this section you started and frame it, wow!

[aefx]

When I first started I tried to paint all in one go. This lead me to rush things and it affected the overall quality of the painting. I've since decided to at least do some sort of grisaille and get as accurate as possible before proceeding any further. I think that yields better results for me as a beginner.

[Shantih]

When I began with oils I always worked alla prima, I still do most of the time but I've begun playing around more with layers and glazes. I can't see any harm in you having a go at that method, it can only teach you more about the paint and how to handle it, and maybe give you a bit more confidence.

[Derek the Usurper]

You learn more from starting a painting than you do from polishing a painting in an additional sitting. Keep doing alla primas until you get something that looks good enough to polish.

[Elwell]

You learn more from starting a painting than you do from polishing a painting in an additional sitting.

Yes and no. How paint behaves over another layer of paint is very different from how it behaves over a plain ground.

[Derek the Usurper]

Yes and no. How paint behaves over another layer of paint is very different from how it behaves over a plain ground.

If your drawing sucks, there isn't much point in moving to that stage. The first hurdle a beginner has is learning how to draw well with the paint.

While I'm a beginner myself, any painting I've carried over into multiple sittings felt as though I was just screwing with it, making it look pretty, where all the real work had occurred in the first sitting. I understand the importance of polish, especially for larger figurative and illustrative works, but in portraiture specifically, I think there is much more to learn from starting a new painting each sitting.

[Ninjerk]

I've had the same thought before, Derek, and I've heard my teacher and read an old post of Jason's that seemed to agree that you miss out on your ability to push the form when you don't do enough "long works" (20+ hours or something like that, depending on how quickly you can work). My teacher has specifically said, multiple times (though not lately), "There are things I can teach you in 'step 6' (an arbitrary number, btw), but you have to get there first. There are things I cannot teach you about drawing in proportion that will happen over time."

I think Jason's post was in a 2003 archive about Ringling portfolio reviews.

[LuckyDevil]

nice thread, i just started painting with oils on monday. (check out my SB :P) and i found it strangely easy, i thought i was going to have a hard time with it but it was easier than i thought. My only problems were mixing the paint correctly to get the colors i wanted, and using too much paint to achieve the colors i want. (if anyone has tips on color mixing please share, cause i really have trouble mixing paint.)

but i think it was easy for me because i have been painting in photoshop for a while, so in my case digital helped me learn traditional?

Anyways good info here will bookmark it for sure.

[arttorney]

I won't rehash any of the elaborate and helpful information you have already gotten except to say: another thing about yellow ochre is that it is often kind of globby anyway. Don't let a bad experience with yellow ochre put you off.

Why I really posted is that I can see you might be struggling with the difference in the business end of a brush and a pencil. I know a hog bristle flat or a bright suggests to the mind a certain way to apply paint, but you can actually use those brushes to make narrow lines if you paint with them sideways. If you just touch down one of the little corners you can even make a dot. Bristle brushes can be powerful when you get used to them. Put some white on one side of a flat and some black on the other side and then spin the handle between your thumb and forefinger while you swoop the brush across the canvas. Betcha never saw a pencil make a mark like that!

[Pezz]

Wow, I really can't believe all of these awesome replies so far! You guys are great! I still have not picked up Venetian or Indian Red, and probably will not be able to until next week. I did, however, attempt a limited palette of Ivory Black, Titanium White, Flake White (more translucent, different applications), Cadmium Red, Yellow Ocher and Burnt Sienna. My head feels like it's going to explode from all the problems I encounter learning to mix paint, but its getting better.

With skin tones, I mix them with a little bit of white. All the skin there was some mixture of yellow ocher, cad red and titanium white. How do I shade it though? Do I mix yellow ocher, cad red and black? Do I mix black into the previous mixture of yellow ocher, cad red and white? Phew, so much to learn, so little time.. ha ha.

------------

So, I figured I should probably post a picture of what I'm whining about so far -laugh- so here goes my self portrait. I'm posing the original pencil contour drawing, then the failure of an underpainting, then what I'm up to now (which is surprisingly angering me less and less!)

As you can see, now my results are still too streaky, a little too messy with the strokes... Also everything in shadow looks a little too orange. I'm having a hard time mixing that cooler color that I see in my skin... maybe like a cooler red? I am having a hard time wrapping my head around skin still... need more practice. Right now my skins too orangey-brown or something.

Also, the chalky highlights are going away but not entirely, but this is my fault for screwing the painting up in the first place - didn't quite want to scrap it entirely. I know I also screwed up my expression somewhere in the under-painting phase, alas due dates being what they are, I have to press on for sake of completeness in class. Not like it's going to be my last self portrait...


So without further rambling and such... my paintings (cross posting to WIP/Crit section with my original WIP thread for this painting). And yes, when I'm done, I'm painting "DRAW MORE!!!" in big white letters and hanging it over my desk.

[Noah Bradley]

How do I shade it though? Do I mix yellow ocher, cad red and black? Do I mix black into the previous mixture of yellow ocher, cad red and white?

You want to mix the color of the shadow--which will vary. Don't just add black to the mix. That's precisely the reason a lot of teachers won't have black on their student's palettes--because it's a crutch. Given those four colors, you can actually get quite a number of different dark colors. Mix the yellow ochre with black (and maybe a smidge of white to bring up the value), and you'll get a greenish color. Mix black with a little white and you'll get a bluish/cool dark. Mix the cad red with black and you'll get a really warm dark. Observe what's in front of you and mix the appropriate color. Doing some color charts will help you get a grasp on what your paints can do. And you can do a lot with a limited palette. :)

P.S. Miscellaneous portrait painting tip: the white of the eyes are almost never as white as you think. They're usually around the value of the skin around the eyes, but a little cooler.

[Pezz]

I also wanted to add, I don't much like liquin, but I love refined linseed oil. :)

[bhanu]

Can you also show the pic you are working from , if you dont mind. Or are you working straight from life?

Dont worry too much about color mixing right now, try to get as close to the tones than hues first. Focus on forms and and edges/plane transitions.

so much to learn, so little time..
unless that armageddon thingy happens in 2012 happens , you have a hella lot time :)

[el coro]

you're drawing is off. spend more time on your placement and proportions. all the painting advice in the world wont help you if you cant get accurate placements. measure. drop plumb lines. spend the time to refine your shapes and how they interlock with eachother. if it takes you hours and hours...its worth it.

painting got really easy for me when i got better at drawing.

c36

[Pezz]

Can you also show the pic you are working from , if you dont mind. Or are you working straight from life?


I am working directly from life, I have a big mirror on one easel and my panel on another. I think I also may have sunk myself by attempting to work a pose that is hard to accurately hold and paint at the same time... I can be a little too ambitious at times.

you're drawing is off. spend more time on your placement and proportions. all the painting advice in the world wont help you if you cant get accurate placements. measure. drop plumb lines. spend the time to refine your shapes and how they interlock with each other. if it takes you hours and hours...its worth it.

painting got really easy for me when i got better at drawing.

Ah, I see. I unfortunately have to finish this painting since it is an assignment, but I do know that you are right. I shall endeavor to really focus on what I'm actually seeing as opposed to getting caught up in what I'm doing/about to do - the excitement of a fresh tube of paint, hah.

Thanks again for all the advice everyone, but I hope this thread does not die its terrible interwebs death... since it's not all about my struggles with this one piece, it's open for anyone to discuss their struggles/questions/experiments with oil paints... so don't be afraid! I will continue to post here as well as time moves on with my painting.

And for what it's worth... I've learned a lot from doing this simple self portrait, not only about oil painting in general, but also about myself. It's true that one has to fall hundreds of times to learn how not to do things ;)

[TASmith]

So far as drawing, here are two tips. The base of the nose from nostril to nostril is about the same as an eye length. Raphael painted his Madonnas with slightly smaller distances, whereas I've seen photos of some people with slightly wider noses - but in every case only slightly. You've snubbed your nose.

Second, if you drew a line from one eye to the other, and a separate line from one end of your mouth to another, they should be parallel. In your self portrait, they're not.

The good news is with opaque paint you can fix anything! So fix it! Post your results. :)

[CCThrom]

painting got really easy for me when i got better at drawing

As much as I hate to admit it, this should be tattooed on the back of my hand.

[Pezz]

Should get our fingers tattooed like this:

[D][R][A][W]0 0[M][O][R][E]

[Ian Miles]

Let me be first.
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7938/44709489.jpg

[Ian Miles]

Whoa, doublepost. :s