New Idea for forum Section

[OmenSpirits]

The forum section would be called the "How-To" section.

Instead of the Art discussion forum being a place more for "How do I (insert subject)" it could be used for just discussing Art.

Thoughts?

[DeadlyFreeze]

Yes but only if its called, 'please spoon feed me, I don't want to actually spend time learning'.

[stoph]

not to be a downer, but isnt that the whole purpose of the aforementioned Art Discussion subforum..? if you wanna know how to do something in art, surely you can pose your questions there and they will be addressed.. if you go around creating more and more subforums it stretches out the resources and you're likely never to get a view, let alone an answer. if you wanna know something relating to digital art, there are the photoshop and painter subforums, there's sculpture forums, im sure traditional media is rampant elsewhere also - just gotta find an appropriate avenue already in place to front your questions :)

[Sepulverture]

What's with people always dissing attempts to collect information here?

"Hi I am wondering if you can help me, I need to know how to xxx yyy"

"What?!?! How DARE you come to an art forum looking for information about art! HOW DARE YOU expect us to spoon feed you information!"

"But I came here under the impression that this place was about sharing art related information"

"Yeah you can get that information. But first you have to read every volume of text available on the subject... twice... submit 15 masterful studies and THEN you may ask for information and MAYBE we will CONSIDER giving you a link to a website to read"

But seriously. What is with the elitist attitude with which people treat requests for information on this site in recent times?

That's not to say that I am against the idea of people buying books and doing their own reading and whatnot. Self study is a valuable skill to posses and essential for the continuation of communities like this. But that doesn't mean that ever request for information - On a site supposedly dedicated to the sharing of techniques and other information - should be treated as an affront on your personal integrity because you read a paper back edition of Bridgmans Guide to blah blah blah.

I say open the damn board, let people post their how-to's there when and how they want to. Drop the elitist attitude and let people make up their own minds what they want to post.

I do agree that the Art Discussion board exists for a reason, and should be used more, but a separate forum for more precise topics could be established to tackle some issues that some of the other boards are ambiguous about.

Art Discussion in my opinion implies discussing art, but it COULD have a sub forum for how-to's.

[DeadlyFreeze]

There's something wrong with expecting an earnest attempt at drawing from someone and not just spoon feeding them a quick fix?

[paberu]

There is no need for "how to" section, it's already here... it's called

[insert drum roll]

SEARCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (http://conceptart.org/forums/search.php)


*phew*

Amazing thing that search section! You ask it a question and it spits out answers!

[alesoun]

But, if you're discussing art, shouldn't technique be a part of that?

[stoph]

Sepulveture: granted there's been instances of an elitist attitude toward noobies as of late, but A) thats a bit of a blanket statement that isnt entirely true all the time, and B) it is becoming increasingly difficult to weed through and distinguish between someone who earnestly wants to learn and improve, and someone who wants someone to do the work for them (we've all encountered either or both in our times, im sure)

as it is, im still convinced subforums such as the Tutorials, Tips & Tricks (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=42) and the Art Discussion (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=132) boards are a great place to put out those specific queries. just click each link and see how many topics are either a targeted tutorial on a specific idea, or a question/answer topic posed by someone wanting to know "how to..."

just my opinion :)

[fionkell]

subforums such as the Tutorials, Tips & Tricks (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=42)

This. this right here, yes. Already got one :) Also, the Fine Arts forum, Community Mentoring, kinda all there already. So I don't think we need a new forum, but eh.

[Asatira]

I think that if we kinda already have forums for that in Art Discussion, Community Mentoring, and Tutorials, Tips, and Tricks. Could they be more focused, especially in Art Discussion and Community Mentoring? Yes. Do we a completely new forum? Probably not. Max, I think all we'd need is a subforum. I think having the purpose and order of the existing three forum areas clarified and focused would be better.

[Daniel Andrews]

A direct question can be answered easily enough with "How to" written in your title. Place the "How to" question in a location which by your judgment has the most relevance. Often enough the questions are answered as straight forward as the question is asked.
I have yet to have issue with how my questions have been answered.

**saying that, Im cool either way**

[CKLamb]

I'm with Sepulverture on this, some of you need to calm the f' down. I don't even see it as being elitist...rather it's being a dickhead when it's completely unwarranted. I promise you can disagree with people without trying to ass-rape them with your attitude. Common decency still exists.

As for the "how-to" section, I could see where consolidating several threads that are floating around in different sub-forums into a single section would be a boon to the community, organizational-wise. However, that would require an active moderator that is willing to fish around and do the house cleaning. Considering it's a thankless job, which people do for free, I wouldn't be in line to do it myself. So I can't blame someone not getting behind this. Especially when there is a search function available.

[Sepulverture]

All I'm suggesting for this how-to board topic is maybe it's not a bad idea to open a board for it.

As it is the existing boards are confused and threads posted in some of these boards are discussing or attempting to discuss topics that are more suitable for other forums.

Even if the person who a how-to was created for turned out to be one of those totally inconsiderate idiots who completely disregard the how-to, having all of these kinds of threads collected into a single well monitored and well labeled forum would, after a short time, create a wealth of information that would be readily available with little searching required, except for searching through the various threads titled "how-to (be an elitist prick).

Simply creating a forum specifically for "how-to" labeled threads would essentially create a library of information that could effectively stop the torrent of "how do i" threads being posted in inappropriate forums, and threads that simply don't belong in the how-to board could be deleted or moved to the appropriate forum so that those questions could receive the attention they need and the how-to board would remain uncluttered and easily accessible to the masses of CA members, long and short term.

So to reiterate even if the person requesting the how-to is an insincere dummy then so what? having these threads all present in one place would ensure that the thread simply doesn't peter out, which is essentially a waste of the authors time and creativity, and instead would help memorialize it for others to enjoy and benefit from. In the current system these kind of threads often fall back to the second page in short order at which point unless the thread is constantly followed it's simply lost to the obscurity.

Regarding the behavior some peoples behavior towards the users making request: So what if sometimes people make requests and don't appreciate them. That doesn't mean you can or should treat every request for help with contempt. And shame on you for basically shitting on the founding principles of this community - sharing and learning and growing together.

This is why I rarely post artwork for critique anymore on these boards. The sheer number of threads that are constantly being created and mismanaged forces all new posts to the second or third pages within a few hours or a day, where it's forgotten unless the thread is revived by the user. But if I am constantly updating my own threads before any criticism is offered, then what's the point of posting it to begin with?

People are unwilling to share their expertise anymore because no one thinks that their word is being appreciated if it's not followed to the T and this speaks for the benefit of a section that is dedicated solely to user generated how-to's, because if all these threads were collected in a single unpolluted environment then many of the threads seeking superficial critique might not need be posted at all, because many of the common questions would already be answered and put on display in an organized way, making the somewhat dodgy search system obsolete for this particular task.

The benefits far outweigh the cons in my opinion, and the people who are objecting to this do so because of an attitude which i think is elitist (although only mildly, not seriously) because it suggests that they are opposed to the free exchange of information.

That last paragraph is largely just opinion and isn't directed to any one user, or even all opposition of this idea, but generally from the posts of those who oppose it, it looks like that's the case to me.

[Kaycy is tanning]

The benefits far outweigh the cons in my opinion, and the people who are objecting to this do so because of an attitude which i think is elitist (although only mildly, not seriously) because it suggests that they are opposed to the free exchange of information.

That last paragraph is largely just opinion and isn't directed to any one user, or even all opposition of this idea, but generally from the posts of those who oppose it, it looks like that's the case to me.

Art is very elitist in some, let's call them, "circles". I often give my opinion on something and I'm probably way too blunt from time to time, but I will never withold a chance to help out someone new. In art it seems so rare to get actual useful help online. I learn how to draw from school, from books, from nice people in real-life. I do not learn how to draw from "the internet", it's very often completely useless and elitist. That's not to say there is no useful info, there is, often from the really competent folks, but it's just rare that people actually point you in the right direction and you're often far better off seeking this info yourself.

The most usefull info is actually coming from people in their 50's, 60's from youtube channels, from painters who are really knowledgeable and are willing to explain things, for free. It usually does not come from young generations, and if it does, often times they charge a ridiculous premium to share that info.

Why? I don't know honestly, I just find it peculiar.

Anyway, whatever forum is fine as long as it helps spread info so people stop believing arts is a magical talent, clouded by a magical ball. Maybe arts will be taken serious again then.

[stoph]

just putting it out there that i believe in free information, and that the sharing of that information is upheld here at CA. i believe and fully support the idea that one can come on these boards, ask a question, and get some knowin'. its a simple thing and it works. at no point am i suggesting that we carry on and make a fuss over a genuine query with the same gusto that one would a troll, nor am i encouraging or perpetuating an elitist attitude.

the only thing that i've objected to (with nil contempt) in any part of this discussion is the need for a subforum that already exists - not the fact that someone has merely proposed its creation or that people are wanting to have their questions fielded in the first place. plain and simple.

bottom line is that if it is created or not, i'll remain indifferent purely because its existence doesnt bother me at all. as long as the values of the community are being promoted and followed, then i'm all for whatever works best.

im out :yayca:

[Ryan K]

This is on a different note, but not worth another thread I suppose.

What about, Navigational Forum Short-Cut Keys?

(I) (I)t's finally finished!!
(S) (S)ketchbooks
(C) (C)ritique center
(F) (F)ine arts
(A) community (A)ctivities
(G) daily sketch (G)roup
(D) art (D)iscussion
(L) (L)ounge

Just hit the keys to jump around the forums. Seen a few sites with it, and it's an awesome navigation tool.

For example: http://ffffound.com/ (Look top right)

They also have keys to press that "Go To Next Image". This would be REALLY useful in Sketchbooks. Just hit a key to skip the text and see the posted art.

[Sepulverture]

- Fair dues to both of you guys Stoph and Kaycy -

Perhaps a separate forum is not strictly necessary. If this is the case however I say that the rules governing some of the existing forum boards be updated to reflect current posting habits.

Let me make this clear. I personally do not care all that much about a new forum. I'm not loosing any sleep over it's creation or the lack thereof, however I do hold the idea that a sub-forum would be highly beneficial to users seeking readily available answers.

I agree in large part with you stoph that simply by posting the information it is then freely available and perhaps that wasn't that best term I could have used. What I meant by freely available is that it wouldn't require a long time using the search tool to sift through possible thread matches trying to find some how-to you remember from 3 months ago, or some other such comparable situation.

I was mulling this whole idea over just now and I thought of a good solution to this problem.

It would involve the creation of a new forum section, but seriously how hard is it to make a link to a new board? Anyway, this board could simply be called "how-to" and then subsections would be organized by content

Media specific information
- how do i (do cross hatching with ink, control line weight with charcoal etc. etc. etc.)
Topic Specific
- anatomy
- bust area (head shoulders neck)
- torso (front and back)
- arms and hands
- legs and feet
- full body
- gesture drawing
- Perspective
- blah blah you get the point
- Light and Shadow
- Meow cat breast milk whatever

It's late and I'm loosing my train of thought. I think my point is more or less clear. Will follow up after work tomorrow

[yoitisi]

Sepulverture: I think it might be worth a try to see if such a subsection will actually work the way you describe it, but if I make one will you be the moderator in there?

I recently tried to clean up the forums a little bit by getting rid of a few sections that were double/unnecessary, but my experience tells me that no matter what people will always find a way to post their questions in the wrong area anyway.

[OmenSpirits]

- Fair dues to both of you guys Stoph and Kaycy -

Perhaps a separate forum is not strictly necessary. If this is the case however I say that the rules governing some of the existing forum boards be updated to reflect current posting habits.

Let me make this clear. I personally do not care all that much about a new forum. I'm not loosing any sleep over it's creation or the lack thereof, however I do hold the idea that a sub-forum would be highly beneficial to users seeking readily available answers.

I agree in large part with you stoph that simply by posting the information it is then freely available and perhaps that wasn't that best term I could have used. What I meant by freely available is that it wouldn't require a long time using the search tool to sift through possible thread matches trying to find some how-to you remember from 3 months ago, or some other such comparable situation.

I was mulling this whole idea over just now and I thought of a good solution to this problem.

It would involve the creation of a new forum section, but seriously how hard is it to make a link to a new board? Anyway, this board could simply be called "how-to" and then subsections would be organized by content

Media specific information
- how do i (do cross hatching with ink, control line weight with charcoal etc. etc. etc.)
Topic Specific
- anatomy
- bust area (head shoulders neck)
- torso (front and back)
- arms and hands
- legs and feet
- full body
- gesture drawing
- Perspective
- blah blah you get the point
- Light and Shadow
- Meow cat breast milk whatever

It's late and I'm loosing my train of thought. I think my point is more or less clear. Will follow up after work tomorrow
That's what I meant. Well said.

To add to it.

Art discussion, IMO would be the reflection of trends, the analysis of periods of art & the ramifications or impact of a certain artist during their time.

Having a section where someone asks a specific question about style or technique would leave the art discussion section open for more exchange of art knowledge that there are those here who have in abundance.

Having it being discussed between two or more people of knowledge gives a great deal of insight then just researching out (though I've studied my fair share of history).

For every thread with a critical discussion of art, there are 5 that ask about how to draw an octagon.

[Randis]

There should be a forum for all the flaming, BS and other related threads.
I would moderate it :D

[kelly x]

I think it's great idea to condense the "how to's" into useful format. I just searched "using light" and pulled up 4009 posts about using light including sketch book's without specific pages. Very over whelming.

[Mucky88]

Can I please have an original music/audio section? That would be nice. I think I'd be the only one there, though. :(

[nauvice]

Yes but only if its called, 'please spoon feed me, I don't want to actually spend time learning'.
asking questions is part of the learning process...

[Interceptor]

There should be a forum for all the flaming, BS and other related threads.
I would moderate it :D

you're in it

[Kaycy is tanning]

There should be a forum for all the flaming, BS and other related threads.
I would moderate it :D

Conception of the Internet --> Internet Chaos ---> Guidelines ---> Moderation ---> Corporate interest --> End of Free speech online

I'm banned on so many forums. The internet used to be a bit like Hyde Park (Speaker's corner), then $ got involved, governments etc.

[Arshes Nei]

I agree that the problem isn't so much not giving information. I came here to CA because it's a wealth of information. I discover threads everyday that help me out. So this "of late?" nah, I see info still being distributed. The problem is a lot of the questions are:

1. Repetitive - it's been answered many times or it's been asked in a way from the same person, similar to trying to get the answer he/she wants rather than reality. Look how many ways "art block" "I can't" "this is frustrating" etc has been asked, and in reality will continue to ask. We've all been through it, and we don't want to be asses, but come on guys?

2. People thinking there is a magic potion (as previously mentioned) or secret to suddenly becoming better.

3. Incredibly silly or subjective. "Rate yourself on a scale of..." on what standards? Why a number?

4, Theorizing instead of doing and understanding. I don't mind helping people out if they do the exercises instead of theorizing about them. "Will life drawing make me a better artist?" "How many sketches till I become better?"

5. Not accepting that failure and trial and error is part of the process. Too many threads popped up by people who did an exercise ONE (or a few) time then complained they didn't get the result he/she wanted. "I did X exercise in this dude's book and it didn't help me out"


Well also, I noticed that there is the Tips and Tutorials which is FOR posting said tips, it's not necessarily about ASKING for them. There is also community mentoring forums? why are we ignoring those? I still see people asking questions on tips in there too.

Yes, the forums need some restructuring no doubt, but I'm wondering if there's a big need to add on, or rather tweak what we have to be more encompassing or it's more clear?

[Sepulverture]

Yoitsi - I would be happy to moderate this forum if and when it is created.

We can work out details via PM and see where this goes.

Thanks for the opportunity!

[Sepulverture]

I think it's great idea to condense the "how to's" into useful format. I just searched "using light" and pulled up 4009 posts about using light including sketch book's without specific pages. Very over whelming.

This is exactly what I was talking about with reference to using the search tool to try to find information.

Sometimes it can be quite useful, I use it occasionally to do things, but sometimes it's just not possible to sort through everything that it pulls up just because of the sheer volume of posts here with our large user base.

Yoitsi - I've refined my idea a little bit about the organization of the how-to boards.

[Arshes Nei]

Actually, you guys can tag threads, correct? I don't believe you have to be a moderator for that. If you can, why not tag some of the threads with more helpful key terms? Older posts might get buried but if you come across an older post without any tags feel free to add them if you can.