Adobe rips people off! (QQ thread)

[Kaycy is tanning]

People already made a petition about CS3, a year ago, but now with CS4 it's even worse.

Photoshop CS4

Adobe US: 602$ (409€)
US (http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-65015634-Photoshop-CS4/dp/B001EUBSL0/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1252813033&sr=1-4)

Adobe France: 947€

France (http://www.amazon.fr/Adobe-Photoshop-CS4/dp/B001GCVFT6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1252812988&sr=8-2)

Adobe Germany: 958€

Germany (http://www.amazon.de/Adobe-Photoshop-CS4-deutsch/dp/B001GCVFRI/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1252813072&sr=8-4)

So in the US, Photoshop costs 409€, in Europe Photoshop costs 950€!!..That's over twice as much, I can fly to the USA for that price.....!!!!

Are they out of their mind? No wonder no one wants to use it anymore in Europe. I use SAI or Painter now, I have CS2, but out of protest I'll just switch since every upgrade is going to cost me a ton of money. I don't get how they get away with this.

/rant off (told you was QQ thread)

[Portus]

Someone has to pay for the promotions they do in the US.

[Derek the Usurper]

Does that have anything to do with the exchange rate and the dollar being so worthless?

[FranciscoShreds]

Awww... that's cute...

[pencilkiller]

Agree. The exchange rate plus the translation fee. They need to localize the software to work with different version of the OS. It's a lot of work to translate a software to work with different language and operation system. :)

[Arshes Nei]

I think everyone should just use US English and keyboards and stop complaining ;)

[Kaycy is tanning]

Agree. The exchange rate plus the translation fee. They need to localize the software to work with different version of the OS. It's a lot of work to translate a software to work with different language and operation system. :)

That's silly though, Windows gets translated for us too, so does Painter, so does every game, every software package. Only adobe is the one who asks twice as much. Windows costs just as much as in the US, and no, that's not because it's MS, translating software is dirt-cheap.

I'm not the first one to complain about this, type in "Adobe Europe" or anything similar in google and you'll have thousands of threads stating the same thing. This is my little contribution for Google's cash database. And to the person who said "that's cute", I'm sure you live in the US or don't care, that's fine and dandy then, thanks. The point is that this is borderline exploitation of a dominant market position. I don't care, I won't use their products anymore, no matter how many use PS, cause it's ridiculous, that's all. Thanks for the comments eh.

<3

[Jovian M]

Pretty sure most people using photoshop don't pay for it. But you're right, the prices are ridiculous. And for such a vast difference between nations is absurd.

[Portus]

Wait until you see the prices Wacom practices, you really could fly to the US and buy all that stuff after converting Euros to Dollars and still have enough money to spend around on vacation.

On a side note I do prefer the retail model of SAI, there's no third-parties involved and you know the money goes directly to the developer, this is the primary reason I only support independent developers.

[Sebastard]

Wait until you see the prices Wacom practices, you really could fly to the US and buy all that stuff after converting Euros to Dollars and still have enough money to spend around on vacation.

On a side note I do prefer the retail model of SAI, there's no third-parties involved and you know the money goes directly to the developer, this is the primary reason I only support independent developers.

I don't know where you live, but Wacom is one of the companies that actually doesn't have those price differences. In Germany, the large intuos4 tablet costs 400€ on Amazon.de ( http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B001WAKDUO/ref=s9_simz_gw_s0_p23_i1?pf_rd_m=A3JWKAKR8XB7XF&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=0NM2C1J79FNNAKV7ZN0Q&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463375193&pf_rd_i=301128 ). The price is about the same in France, Denmark and Finland with only minor price variations if you head to Sweden, Norway or UK. Even on Wacom's online store, the price differences are very small.

Myself, i'm going to pay slightly more for the intuos4 large, around 440-480€, but i like the customer service and speedy 1-day delivery that comes with that certain store :).

What does bug me a bit is the pricing they have on accessories, extra nibs and specific pens. But bottom line is...if people don't want to use Wacom, Photoshop or any commercial brand of software or hardware, they don't have to. There are lots of alternatives. if you as an artist do want the best of the best (assuming you think Wacom/photoshop is the best), well...be prepared to pay a certain sum for those things :).

Edit: And as Squidmonk3j pointed out, Photoshop is intended for professional, or, i would like to add; Student, usage. There's a Photoshop CS4 version for 169€ (ex. VAT) for students. There's also creative suite for 269€, also student-priced.

[squidmonk3j]

Even though I do not fully understand the reason for the extreme difference in price levels, you have to consider the fact that this product is intended for -professional- users. That means, among other things, that it is tax deductable for the target users.

[Portus]

I don't know where you live, but Wacom is one of the companies that actually doesn't have those price differences. In Germany, the large intuos4 tablet costs 400€ on Amazon.de ( http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B001WAKDUO/ref=s9_simz_gw_s0_p23_i1?pf_rd_m=A3JWKAKR8XB7XF&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=0NM2C1J79FNNAKV7ZN0Q&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463375193&pf_rd_i=301128 ). The price is about the same in France, Denmark and Finland with only minor price variations if you head to Sweden, Norway or UK. Even on Wacom's online store, the price differences are very small.

Myself, i'm going to pay slightly more for the intuos4 large, around 440-480€, but i like the customer service and speedy 1-day delivery that comes with that certain store :).

What does bug me a bit is the pricing they have on accessories, extra nibs and specific pens. But bottom line is...if people don't want to use Wacom, Photoshop or any commercial brand of software or hardware, they don't have to. There are lots of alternatives. if you as an artist do want the best of the best (assuming you think Wacom/photoshop is the best), well...be prepared to pay a certain sum for those things :).

Edit: And as Squidmonk3j pointed out, Photoshop is intended for professional, or, i would like to add; Student, usage. There's a Photoshop CS4 version for 169€ (ex. VAT) for students. There's also creative suite for 269€, also student-priced.

I was talking about the pricing difference between the US and the EU but where I live is still more expensive than other european countries so I usually order from Germany, this way I don't pay import taxes and still get a fairer price.

It's not just Adobe or Wacom, check the computer monitor prices for example or computer parts, they're all miles cheaper than in Europe.

[Chison]

if every one use only one langaug,they can rip you off easily
i don't think translation are that difficult in a big software like that
is just the 2page of words on the software and a few hundred page of f&q people unlikely to read,

[Farvus]

There are lots of alternatives. if you as an artist do want the best of the best (assuming you think Wacom/photoshop is the best), well...be prepared to pay a certain sum for those things :).


There are many alternatives but there are no professional alternatives. That's the problem.

[Orban]

What do the fact that it's mostly for professional work has to do with the difference in pricing ? Do european pro gain the double of the us pro (at my knowledge : not at all).
The translation fee is hard to swallow : most pro I know use it in english. Maybe it's another english we speak in europe ? And well, some other language seem to be spoken in the US too (like spanish).
Even Apple now adapt his price for Europe.

If we are to follow the actual convertion between euro/dollar, we should have it at half the price, not twice of it.

[Viridis]

Imports are always more expensive. When I was in Japan any English books were about $15 for a $7 paperback. Same thing for clothes. It happens.

I think it's likely that the reason Photoshop is so expensive outside the US is a combination of import fees, inflation/weak US dollar, and possibly a little bit of Adobe milking people because their software is basically ubiquitous.

If you're in Europe and you want a cheaper version of Photoshop, isn't it possible to simply order from the US or eBay and pay a little extra in shipping? I'm not saying that Adobe's prices are fair, just that there's always ways to get around them.

(And of course, most people using Photoshop are pirating it anyway.)

[Sebastard]

I think it's likely that the reason Photoshop is so expensive outside the US is a combination of import fees, inflation/weak US dollar, and possibly a little bit of Adobe milking people because their software is basically ubiquitous.

If you're in Europe and you want a cheaper version of Photoshop, isn't it possible to simply order from the US or eBay and pay a little extra in shipping? I'm not saying that Adobe's prices are fair, just that there's always ways to get around them.


That, and the fact that European/EU VAT/sales tax is alot higher then american. In Sweden we pay a 25% sales tax on the price of any electronic consumer product. Importing wares from, say USA, will be expensive for the same reason. If i wanted to import a Wacom Intuos4 large from amazon.com, i'd end up paying a 950 SEK = ~134$ sales tax in addition to the price and expensive 30-40$ shipping. All in all, i'd pay the same price as i would buying it over here :).

Some people actually go to USA simply to buy ridiculous amounts of electronics or clothes and then fly back, trying to smuggle it back into Sweden without paying the required 25% extra upon crossing the border = Baaad.

Anyway, yeah. Adobe products are expensive and i wasn't trying to come in and defend the Adobe company. Just saying, like others, that there are ways to lower the cost. Be a student, for one. I think that the student price is completely affordable and justifiable but the living standards within europe and the EU are very different. What's affordable for me might not be affordable for some.

[Xeon_OND]

Those kind of prices that Adobe CS4 is at is truly obscene.
Seems that pretty much every fucking thing that comes out of the Land of the Free is expensive as fuck.

Greed is driving all these, I say. No wonder you've people like Bernie Madoff, the honchos at Lehman Brothers, those big fat corporate scums who gets paid half a billion after 6 months of work and another US$600 million for being laid off.

For these kinda prices Adobe is selling their products, the wisest thing anyone with a brain can do is to use the money instead to buy a 2-way ticket via budget airline to some Eastern European country where piracy is rampant, or to some of the South-East Asian countries here, where a piece of Adobe CS4 costs less than US$8.

For these bloodsuckers to price their products at such obscene amounts, no wonder piracy will never go away.

[Elwell]

That, and the fact that European/EU VAT/sales tax is alot higher then american. In Sweden we pay a 25% sales tax on the price of any electronic consumer product. Importing wares from, say USA, will be expensive for the same reason. If i wanted to import a Wacom Intuos4 large from amazon.com, i'd end up paying a 950 SEK = ~134$ sales tax in addition to the price and expensive 30-40$ shipping. All in all, i'd pay the same price as i would buying it over here :).

Some people actually go to USA simply to buy ridiculous amounts of electronics or clothes and then fly back, trying to smuggle it back into Sweden without paying the required 25% extra upon crossing the border = Baaad.

Anyway, yeah. Adobe products are expensive and i wasn't trying to come in and defend the Adobe company. Just saying, like others, that there are ways to lower the cost. Be a student, for one. I think that the student price is completely affordable and justifiable but the living standards within europe and the EU are very different. What's affordable for me might not be affordable for some.

I was going to ask if those prices included VAT. In the US there's no national VAT, just state and local sales taxes that may or may not apply to on-line or mail order sales, depending on where the buyer and seller are located.

[squidmonk3j]

Oh goddammit.

Try comparing the price of these products to the amassed analogue counterparts (including studio space) needed to replace them.

EDIT: Re. Elwell's post: VAT (MVA) is 25% here in Norway...and ALSO refundable if you're a professional.

[Jeff Hall]

It's nothing personal. It's just business.

10-15 years ago, there were lots of companies, and a lot of software products. Today, you have Adobe, and Autodesk. Autodesk has been particularly voracious, gobbling up not only their competitors but anyone who they think might become a competitor in the future. Much of the Adobe lineup came from somewhere else. This is just my theory, but I think there has to be a point of diminishing returns, when you're just too big, you have too many products, too many development teams wanting to spend too much money, and it's all driven by the marketing department. Adobe isn't in business to make software. They're in business to make a profit. Most people seem to agree that CS4 was a flop. It's what CS3 should have been, and not really worth the upgrade. Is that a sign of the health of things? I don't know.

I know they’re priced to get you to buy a bundle instead. But why the big jump from US to Europe? Taxes maybe? Bottom line, they kinda got ya. Photoshop is such an institution, it's difficult to get around that, and Adobe knows it. You could use Gimp, or PaintShop Pro, and they'll do anything Photoshop does. It's not about the tools, it's about the artist, but try to use that argument at the interview table and see how far you get. At least that’s how it is here in the states.

[Sebastard]

I was going to ask if those prices included VAT. In the US there's no national VAT, just state and local sales taxes that may or may not apply to on-line or mail order sales, depending on where the buyer and seller are located.

Well, i'm no tax expert so i pretty much only knows what concerns me personally, like that every nation here has a national VAT. Here's what i know otherwise.

* Within the EU, you can order from another country without having to pay extra VAT. I.E, i could order a tablet from germany for 400€ instead of paying 460 here without facing any taxes for import.
* In Sweden, the VAT is only refundable if you a "company". If you buy something for use exclusively for the "company", you get to remove 25% VAT (Moms), but if it's for private and corporate usage, you'll pay VAT. I just know that there's no way in hell that *i* can get the VAT refunded or i'd have done it ages ago :P
* As soon as you enter the EU with imported wares, you're paying some kind of VAT.

I was actually surprised when i saw that Amazon.com calculates the VAT into the sales price when you order from them. It used to be that there was a certain chance you'd end up paying VAT for import when ordering online from USA, depending on the mood of the toll department that day :P. It's different now i suppose, at least on Amazon.

I've ordered a myriad of items from USA before, a mixture of books, electronics and some replica items. Sometimes i've ended up paying VAT, sometimes i got lucky.

Squidmonk: You can actually deduct the VAT if you purchase something as a "private" person and not a corporation? Or by professional do you mean someone who has a one-man corporation registered?

[squidmonk3j]

Seb - Yeah, it's a bit tricky..

You need to be registered to send a valid invoice. The most basic registration needed involves no real (legal) demarcation between you and your registered "one-man corporation". Once your yearly income via this quasi-corporation exceeds ca. 5800Euro, you need to register in the "VAT-register", and from then on you're basically VAT-exempt - the idea being that the end-user/consumer should pay the taxes.

Of course, it's -ridiculously- more complicated than this, but...you get the gist of it:)

...so, in essence, I guess I'm saying that you're not professional unless your art is the profession by which you make your living.

[Sebastard]

Sounds similar to how it is here. I COULD register my "Loser-Sebastian studies art inc.", get an "F-Skattesedel", get a registration number and start ordering products left and right and pay no VAT whatsoever....

...until i have to fill in the tax-return. If i haven't actually peddled any products to consumers to a degree that exceeds the cost of excluded VAT, i'll have to start shelling back money to pay for the tax :P.

Of course, according to some people it's easy enough to lie/fool/fake some income tax returns, but that's just plain retarded. Not worth the few hundred SEK you save.

EDit: i have to say though, the student offers are a true godsend. Most large companies have them, and you can save between 10-25%, almost as much as the VAT deduction. Still (formally anyway :P) a student, i take advantage of this as often as humanly possible. Not sure if other countries have such extreme student discounts as we do :).

[Viridis]

That, and the fact that European/EU VAT/sales tax is alot higher then american. In Sweden we pay a 25% sales tax on the price of any electronic consumer product. Importing wares from, say USA, will be expensive for the same reason. If i wanted to import a Wacom Intuos4 large from amazon.com, i'd end up paying a 950 SEK = ~134$ sales tax in addition to the price and expensive 30-40$ shipping. All in all, i'd pay the same price as i would buying it over here :).



Ahh, I wasn't aware of a national sales tax in Europe. It sounds like that and import fees are probably the reason for the big price hike. In the US we only have local and state sales tax, and it's fairly low, probably around 5-7% in each state.

Honestly, the best way to get Photoshop software cheaply and legally is to be a student, I think. I purchased a full copy of the CS2 suite at my school on sale for $250 a few years back. Most recently the school got a grant or a deal from Adobe where anyone who is a member of the school can download the entire CS4 suite with DreamWeaver for free, in addition to some other programs. You can only really use the license while you're a student, but it's still a fantastic deal. :O

[Arshes Nei]

Ahh, I wasn't aware of a national sales tax in Europe. It sounds like that and import fees are probably the reason for the big price hike. In the US we only have local and state sales tax, and it's fairly low, probably around 5-7% in each state.


Well it's nearly 10% here and I know that other states are getting up there, but it's still cheap compared to other countries.

The thing is the US is a consumer/spend driven country we also import goods like crazy. In fact, because of this it's not uncommon that our imported goods are cheaper than the originating country.

Anime Village was part of Bandai, and they imported most of their titles at a cheap rate, the problem was too cheap. What started happening was that Japanese citizens found out it was cheaper to import their own good from the US, than buy the anime titles in their own country.

Photoshop is only expensive depending on how much use you get out of it.

[Black Spot]

Just to clarify matters - there is no VAT on imports from non-EU counties, but there is import duty, which can vary greatly depending on a number of factors.

VAT is the one part of accountancy I actually enjoy.

[Orban]

Price in the first post for the EU are VAT included. Probably not in the US price, but, even if it's 10% more, it would still be 40% less than our price. Happy to be in Belgium, it's only 813€. Dunno why it's cheaper than France since our taxe are 21% and theirs 19%. Ohhh the Adobe mystery !

The Intuos 4 L Wide is 455,55€ (vat included, as usual), which means 664$. I can't compare with the US since I don't know your taxes and base price.

[Viridis]

The Intuos 4 L Wide is 455,55€ (vat included, as usual), which means 664$. I can't compare with the US since I don't know your taxes and base price.

Hmmm. A quick look on Amazon tells me that the Intuos 4 Large retails for $499, but Amazon is currently selling it for $437. That would be the full price, since almost anything over $25 ships free from Amazon (within the US), and no further taxes are charged for things bought online*. If you wanted to buy it in a store, though, the price would probably be around $530-550 depending on state. I'm in Indiana, where sales tax is currently 7%, which would put it at $535. If you were someplace like California though, it would probably be significantly higher.

Arshes Nei also has a point though, and that's something I'd forgotten-- the US is very much import-based, to the point that I think in many areas we import far more than we export. Which does interesting things to the economy, I'm sure. But it also keeps prices down for us. ...I think? I'm no economist.


*EDIT: Actually, I just realized that that is incorrect. Most states do not charge sales tax for things like online or catalog orders. But some do. It's all very confusing. Hurrah for federalism. >_>;

[Qitsune]

The translation thing would be lame. Where I work, we do all the sku's at the same time, in all the languages we intend on supporting, so all languages are counted on the same budget. Ok, I work for a european company, but still, I'd be surprised if other software publishers didn't have a fast, simutaneous and efficient way to handle translations.

I know that many of the smaller game portals charge the same "number" for each game, say if they decide something is 19.95$USD, it's also 19.95£ in the UK or 19.95€ in EU because they can get away with it (and that's before any taxes are counted.) It's an unfortunate situation and maybe user lobby can do something about it.

[Ardescoere]

I'm not sure if someone already said this... but I work for an IT reseller currently and the way they explain it to us (because we need to be able to explain it to the customers) is this...

The products are developed (usually) in the US. Where all the patents are held. They say that there is the translation fees. There's also the fact that you can -never- do a direct translation. Even from our US base to the Canada one where I am. We have customers with US locations and Canadian ones. So they take whatever price they are given in the US and then do a translation into Canadian. it doesn't work that way.

There are tarrifs for bringing it into another country. Likely they are making the product somewhere else and have to ship it in. There's the international marketing rights. There's the cost of whatever distrobution in the country you are living in has it and marks it up (usually between 2-5% if it's in Canada at least) and then the company you buy it through if they are third party will probably mark it up another 1-2% as well. On software there is a lot of margin (which sucks, honestly).

But the justification is this... They have to distribute it from wherever it is manufactured. And some countries wouldn't be purchasing as much so to ship things in smaller shipments costs them mroe. So they raise the price. And the third party costs jack it up incredibly. Each distributor and each step in the chain has to make money or there is no point to do it.

I am not defending anyone who gouges people the way that the big companies do. I'm just explaining that the reason for the price difference might be... somewhat... legitimately made.

[Leonor]

Start a software company, make your own program and sell it cheap.

[Anid Maro]

Believe it or not, some people have (http://www.gimp.org/) already (http://www.artrage.com/) done (http://www.systemax.jp/en/sai/) that (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=167442).

[Orban]

I'm not sure if someone already said this... but I work for an IT reseller currently and the way they explain it to us (because we need to be able to explain it to the customers) is this...

The products are developed (usually) in the US. Where all the patents are held. They say that there is the translation fees. There's also the fact that you can -never- do a direct translation. Even from our US base to the Canada one where I am. We have customers with US locations and Canadian ones. So they take whatever price they are given in the US and then do a translation into Canadian. it doesn't work that way.

There are tarrifs for bringing it into another country. Likely they are making the product somewhere else and have to ship it in. There's the international marketing rights. There's the cost of whatever distrobution in the country you are living in has it and marks it up (usually between 2-5% if it's in Canada at least) and then the company you buy it through if they are third party will probably mark it up another 1-2% as well. On software there is a lot of margin (which sucks, honestly).

But the justification is this... They have to distribute it from wherever it is manufactured. And some countries wouldn't be purchasing as much so to ship things in smaller shipments costs them mroe. So they raise the price. And the third party costs jack it up incredibly. Each distributor and each step in the chain has to make money or there is no point to do it.

I am not defending anyone who gouges people the way that the big companies do. I'm just explaining that the reason for the price difference might be... somewhat... legitimately made.

Even Adobe employees tell they have no idea why it's this way (John Knack, Philley), on their blog. Most music software are in the same price range of Photoshop and we do not get this treatment - even from Avid (Pro Tools).
The only two (prominent) companies that were doing this are Apple and Adobe. Apple has change his way (well, some of it).

Uhmm, another market that love to get higher margin from us : game. Microsoft was the only one willing to adapt the price of his console, but otherwise, it's expensive to be a gamer here in the EU (remember Rock Band, nearly 50 to 100$ more here)

Oh, and there's more people in the EU than in the US. Bigger market and so on.

[pencilkiller]

And don't forget there is customer service and tech support for different languages. Also the marketing and IT tech teams, you got to feed those people down the line. I also think it is not right to mark up the price for different languages version. But if you think about in term of the marketing, a German or France version has much smaller market than the English version.

Can people in Europe buy a US version of Photoshop?

[Kaycy is tanning]

Can people in Europe buy a US version of Photoshop?

Not through the big channels no. From experience, you can't order software from Adobe from their US site, or from Amazon US. Amazon US will tell you it's not available for your country. Which is very weird because they send much bigger things than a PS box to Europe. But any software is blocked. Some games however are not blocked.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9969/kaycy.jpg

This doesn't mean that you can't order it if you find a lesser known channel though. If you look around, I'm sure it's possible.

[Orban]

And don't forget there is customer service and tech support for different languages. Also the marketing and IT tech teams, you got to feed those people down the line. I also think it is not right to mark up the price for different languages version. But if you think about in term of the marketing, a German or France version has much smaller market than the English version.

Can people in Europe buy a US version of Photoshop?

Yes.

Well. In the UK, the price suffer of the same doubling. I know, UK english is a bitch. And support has to be adapted to - language reason, after all, english to english...

You do know that support in the US is payed too ? And since there's more people, it need to be a bigger one.

[Kaycy is tanning]

You can order from the UK, correct, in English. Which I guess is just the US version with a UK tag slapped on it, but at the same 2X price of the French or German version. However, ordering straight from the US through big channels like Adobe, Amazon, Newegg etc, is impossible for Europe. Ordering anything except specific software is usually possible though.

[Baron Impossible]

I'm not aware of any US software I've ever used being converted to "UK" English. As far as I'm aware, that never happens. The product is identical, as is the support. It's just the price that's different, i.e. higher.

[CGMonkey]

Maybe it's cheaper in the states and not more expensive in EU? (is the glas half full or half empty?).

[Qitsune]

http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=18402
You aren't the only ones who noticed, these guys are trying to get it shipped from the US.

[Arshes Nei]

t's just the price that's different, i.e. higher.

As is with a lot of the goods in the UK...

[dashinvaine]

Adobe rips people off. So do Winsor and Newton, so you can't win, QED.

[Ardescoere]

Even Adobe employees tell they have no idea why it's this way (John Knack, Philley), on their blog. Most music software are in the same price range of Photoshop and we do not get this treatment - even from Avid (Pro Tools).
The only two (prominent) companies that were doing this are Apple and Adobe. Apple has change his way (well, some of it).

Uhmm, another market that love to get higher margin from us : game. Microsoft was the only one willing to adapt the price of his console, but otherwise, it's expensive to be a gamer here in the EU (remember Rock Band, nearly 50 to 100$ more here)

Oh, and there's more people in the EU than in the US. Bigger market and so on.


No no, I do agree. That's my explination from what they have given us in my workplace. That's all. Like I said... somewhat... lol. I don't believe it. I think it's a ripoff. If it was reasonably priced I'd glady buy it. But it's so expensive I can't right now either.

[Arshes Nei]

Well...divide the amount in each region by 365 since that's how many days in a year.
So how unreasonable is it then?

BTW I'm curious, what's the minimum wages in each European country?

As of July 24, 2009 (2009 -07-24)[update], the federal minimum wage in the United States is $7.25 per hour.

[Muz]

Its kind of like how aussies pay up to $120 for new video games here :|.

[Flake]

BTW I'm curious, what's the minimum wages in each European country?


In the UK, £5.73, maybe US$9.50?. Britain is generally a bit low for stuff like this, I'd expect Scandinavia or most of EU for instance to be higher.

We also have VAT, NHS, exchange rates, more expensive stuff though, it's tricky to make meaningful comparisons..

Edit: Remember we have free or cheap hospitals, paid for by heftier taxes and more expensive luxury stuff.

That said, Adobe are taking the piss, secure in the knowledge that they have a monopoly..

[frog from itchy]

Not through the big channels no. From experience, you can't order software from Adobe from their US site, or from Amazon US. Amazon US will tell you it's not available for your country. Which is very weird because they send much bigger things than a PS box to Europe. But any software is blocked. Some games however are not blocked.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9969/kaycy.jpg

This doesn't mean that you can't order it if you find a lesser known channel though. If you look around, I'm sure it's possible.

If you try and activate a US version in Europe, it won't work as far as I know.

[Nickillus]

In the UK, £5.73, maybe US$9.50?. Britain is generally a bit low for stuff like this, I'd expect Scandinavia or most of EU for instance to be higher.

We also have VAT, NHS, exchange rates, more expensive stuff though, it's tricky to make meaningful comparisons..

Edit: Remember we have free or cheap hospitals, paid for by heftier taxes and more expensive luxury stuff.

That said, Adobe are taking the piss, secure in the knowledge that they have a monopoly..

Except they don't if you decide to use the alternative products that will output compatible file formats. A lone operator like me (freelance illustrator) has never been able to justify forking out several thousand pounds for a CSsuite, most of which I'd never use, and which would slow my system down with all its extraneous bells and whistles.
Even the latest Photoshop would have minimal advantages for me over the Photoshop7 I use, which I got off Ebay for £100 a handful of years ago.
And that could now be replaced by the latest PhotoPlus software, brand new at a lower cost than that. The bottom line about the software for me is - Can it handle what I need it to do and output reliably to PSD and other file formats that the industry uses?
Yes the industry needs to be standardised to work and Adobe suite seems like one solution for the print sector I work in. They don't care what software I use so long as I can handle the work and file formats when asked.

I'm not a vector artist, but any such work like that I need, I do in DrawPlusX3 - (I've seen it new for £25 on Ebay)
Painting software - Yep, I use PainterX (£120 + postage on Ebay today)
But also ArtRage ($25) New version 3 coming soon - price tba
Sketchbook Pro1020 (£90)

And guess what - they all output psd (or common image format in the case of DrawPlus) files that are acceptable to the industry. Adobe is not the only answer. I can't afford it, so I use something else. If enough folk do that, they lose their market and either drop their prices or . . . . . . . . .
Just work round them and their greed.

[Sebastard]

Well...divide the amount in each region by 365 since that's how many days in a year.
So how unreasonable is it then?

BTW I'm curious, what's the minimum wages in each European country?

As of July 24, 2009 (2009 -07-24)[update], the federal minimum wage in the United States is $7.25 per hour.

Well, let's put it this way. As a swedish citizen i'd laugh in the face of any employer who offered me less then a 16-17$/hour wage. 15$ /hour is what i made when i cleared hedges & grass for the municipality in high school during summers. 19-22$/hour is what i make if i go work at the local factory now. If i write, it's more difficult because i don't get paid per hour but either per published word or page.

The crucial difference in Sweden, and most of scandinavia is, that there is no legally established minimum wage. The minimum wage is determined by a cooperative dialogue between the union in question and the employer. Sweden is a social-democratic welfare state, and for the past century the different unions have with this model regulated minimum wages, conditions and so on.

I like our model :).

Non-scandinavian countries are alot toughter. There's GB, which has a model not dissimilar to the one in USA, if i'm not completely mistaken. There's Germany, who's employment climate has hardened extremely the past decade. Basically, you can divide europe into welfare "blocks." There's the social-democratic hemisphere of Scandinavia, the liberal sphere of GB, the central-european/family-oriented southern european block of Germany, France, Spain, Italy and Greece. Each of these countries have somewhat varying climates when looking to employment, benefits, minimum wages, etc.

However: If you check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country , you'll see that alot of european nations will have "none" written because they have a model - while watered down - not entirely different from Scandinavia. Also, some models have exceptions, such as the german one.

"none, except for construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers; set by collective bargaining agreements in other sectors of the economy and enforceable by law"[4]

Where the minimum wages exist, they are generally high in comparison to the rest of the market.

[Jabo]

Even worse a difference with PS Extended:

Photoshop Extended CS4 English from Amazon.com – $942.49 = EUR 642.99 (http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-65015816-Photoshop-Extended-CS4/dp/B001EUDGO2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1253102144&sr=8-1)

Photoshop Extended CS4 German from Amazon.de - EUR 1,455.95 (http://www.amazon.de/Adobe-Photoshop-Extended-CS4-deutsch/dp/B001GCVFUU)

BUT

Photoshop Extended CS4 English from Amazon.de - EUR 1,153.99 (http://www.amazon.de/Adobe-Photoshop-Extended-CS4-englisch/dp/B001G8Y7KE/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1253102309&sr=1-8)

So it comes down to this, even if we consider the exclusion of taxes in the US-store: Translation obviously raises the price by around EUR 300 per unit. Which is a whole fucking too much if you ask me. This might not be a problem in Benelux- or Scandinavian countries, where speaking English is common. My problem with the english version of Adobe products is that I'm unable to communicate with agencies or clients because unfortunately, Germany isn't really good at speaking English. Most people don't speak it too well and understand nothing. I was using the english version for some time last year, but I forgot most of the German equivalents after some months and then I was often stuck in conversations about the application (you know, "put some … eerrrr you know the stuff that makes it all blurry ... on the background ... err" and stuff).

The real problem with Adobe products at the moment is that it is buggy and overloaded and adds more useless features with every release. And release dates are annual, which sucks even more. They should clean it up, but I guess that will never happen. I'd love to have an option to turn off filters for example, and other unnecessary stuff. And they should really get rid of the display problems in most of the palettes. It's a pain in the ass and I don't see anything good in the future for this. Ever since CS1, Photoshop and Co. have been descending rapidly. I hope they will follow Apple's way and clean it up in a coming update, with 0 new features, just performance and bug-fixing. And to come full circle: Sell it at a really low price to reinforce customers trust.

Oh yeah, and for the record: Even if you include taxes and stuff, the US are still off very very cheap. But that's common I guess.

[adobeusa]

EDit: i have to say though, the student offers are a true godsend. Most large companies have them, and you can save between 10-25%, almost as much as the VAT deduction. Still (formally anyway :P) a student, i take advantage of this as often as humanly possible. Not sure if other countries have such extreme student discounts as we do :).
Honestly, the best way to get Photoshop software cheaply and legally is to be a student, I think. I purchased a full copy of the CS2 suite at my school on sale for $250 a few years back. Most recently the school got a grant or a deal from Adobe where anyone who is a member of the school can download the entire CS4 suite with DreamWeaver for free, in addition to some other programs. You can only really use the license while you're a student, but it's still a fantastic deal.


I do some work with Adobe here in North America - typically, you can pick up the Student Editions for Creative Suite 4 for up to 80% off the full commercial price.. Here in the US, they can be used for commercial purposes - globally, the policies are a bit different. You can find any information about the Student Editions at http://studenteditions.adobe.com. I can field any questions about it you may have.

[rosshandle]

Start a software company, make your own program and sell it cheap.

its not an easy thing to start a software company even he has more experience. Because this is the recession period. there is lack of money and lack of well talented guys.

[dpaint]

Why not buy a student license? The full CS suite is only 500 bucks, you just can't upgrade.