PDA

View Full Version : The Lie Part II


Suska
September 11th, 2009, 04:53 PM
I've given this some thought, examining my own motives and reasoning I've come to the conclusion that Part I wound up emphasizing something secondary. I've reformulated what I hoped to say, my motives here, as ever are simply to generate some talk in order to check or enhance my own ideas. I'm here to learn really. Yes this is best described as Art Theory, but it emphasizes storytelling just as "experience" emphasizes subjectivity - so it oughta be fun!

I have a very simple way of explaining it which you all can understand. You can understand it as easily as you understand a child's attachment to a Teddy Bear.

This is an analogy for Animism.

There are two useful ways of looking at a story, using the example of science fiction Michael Wong wrote a good breakdown (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Analysis.html).

You can look at it from either perspective:

1)Literary Analysis : "Treats the films and TV shows as a mere "depiction", or "dramatic re-enactment" of a world which exists only in the author's mind."

2)Suspension of Disbelief : "The aliens in the hilarious sci-fi satire "Galaxy Quest" considered the TV shows depicting Tim Allen's NSEA Protector to be "historical records", in which they assumed they were documentary footage and analyzed them as such. We copy this approach. In the case of books, we would treat them as history books."

I suggest that Suspension of Disbelief itself has two parts, the one just described in which the storyland documents are second hand, and this one:

2b)Apophenia/Animism/Precognitive "Absence" of Disbelief = Belief itself : The artifact-image itself has the experience which is depicted.

Some examples:

Han Solo did shoot first in some universes, and in the universes in which he did not shoot first he had an uncanny experience of dissociation - the event felt "unreal"

The Defiant is actually a variety of sizes, as uncanny as that would be for us, in the realm of images, objects are very elastic, this doesn't have any impact on them since as they get closer to interacting their proportions normalize.

The teddy Bear does not "represent" a bear, it is a Teddy Bear and lives the life of a Teddy Bear. As with most "constructed" entities and other formations of inert matter the Teddy Bear is extremely Lazy, but quite responsive in some ways. It is very patient, always cheerful and available for intimacy. And why not..? How nice a life of hugs! Left alone, Teddy Bears die very gradually, but like people they can die in disasters.

Whether taken 'as-if' (suspension of disbelief) or Animistically (The artifact-image itself has the depicted experience) The matter applies to all sorts of Art but significantly to image-generation, the question is whether the Artist approaches the blank paper loyal to, affectionate with, and interested in the experiences he depicts as if he credits to characters the capacity to experience them, or the matter of the blank paper is answered in every case by a formula, the tradition, and cribbing.

My feeling is that every sort of Artist is tapping into a dream-stream of ambient spirit even if there's no all-encompassing reason to prefer to call it that over calling it 'the creative process' - but my contention is that it isn't so totally the black box popular culture insists it to be. Creativity, and loving one's Teddy Bear have everything in common and I could use many words to describe this but I will select 3 I've always liked.

Belief, Sincerity, Innocence

For a competent Draughtsman to become a Great Storyteller (whether in one frame or millions) they call this Genius, or Inspiration, my aim here is mainly to paint a picture in words addressing matters like, why do we love fictional people and animals? If they are not unreal (and don't let it be said a fictional character never had a real part to play in non-fictional events) - How are they not unreal? Because they are real, how would you describe their realness? Ultimately in terms of their own reality. To reduce the matter to the materialistic, it is semiotic; these are symbols of our communications. But in Art - as the song goes - it ain't what you do, its the way that you do it. But before I get into Teleology or Metaphysics, is this an interesting perspective? Is what I'm saying comprehensible?

The Lie of which I speak is whatever doubts the living spirit and personal perspective of the Teddy Bear. Looking at it this way clarifies and sanctifies the Arts; we communicate with the Ambient Spirits, inhabiting the spaces sealed between ink lines. And we know by this how to be open to subtle winds and to employ our entire capacities. If they are alive then we must respect them enough to depict them well.

Kaycy is tanning
September 11th, 2009, 05:31 PM
I think I speak for many when I say.. WHAT?!

kev ferrara
September 11th, 2009, 05:58 PM
Suska, what you are saying is a very old philosophy. It goes back to Howard Pyle at least in visual art. Probably Aristotle or somebody in terms of the dramatic arts. In all the arts, the establishment of "the suspension of disbelief" in the audience is caused, first and foremost, by the belief of the artist in the reality of what is being depicted. Artists generally fall into a fugue state when they are believing what they are doing, because their imaginations have completely taken over.

You will find that, generally, it is worthwhile reading what has already been said. Unfortunately, it is damn hard to figure out what is worth reading.

May I quickly recommend these two pdfs, from Howard Pyle's class in 1904 and from Harvey Dunn's class in 1934:

http://www.box.net/shared/eccglstgkk

http://www.robolus.com/h.dunn-eveningclassroom.pdf

kev

Kamber Parrk
September 11th, 2009, 08:02 PM
Pummeling a deceased equine?

Suska
September 11th, 2009, 09:02 PM
Pummeling a deceased equine?
not at all, 2 posts in and I have tonight's reading material.
We have trouble because we demand something of the picture.
Pictures must demand something of us.

Kamber Parrk
September 11th, 2009, 09:12 PM
Suska, Suska, Suska!

Don't make me "go all Godwin on you!" LOL!

I got a freshly pressed Brown Shirt and big shiney Black Boots just waiting to kill this thread!

(Not that that represents my actual political views. . .)

jcpahl
September 11th, 2009, 09:13 PM
May I quickly recommend these two pdfs, from Howard Pyle's class in 1904 and from Harvey Dunn's class in 1934:


Mmm, yes, yes you may.

Derek the Usurper
September 11th, 2009, 09:17 PM
I find myself yet again, unable to get past your unreasonable presupposition that animism and other nebulous spiritual assertions are actually true.

Goog
September 11th, 2009, 10:12 PM
sounds like an abstract interpretation of Plato's theory of forms.

Viridis
September 11th, 2009, 10:32 PM
I find myself yet again, unable to get past your unreasonable presupposition that animism and other nebulous spiritual assertions are actually true.

This.

Suska, I know you're trying, and I am eternally grateful that you're not bringing specific media into the discussion this time, but I'm still not sure that you're making your point well.

Mostly, I think you're misusing some terms here. Notably "suspension of disbelief" and "animism."

The suspension of disbelief is exactly that. We briefly suspend our knowledge that a story (or image) is not true, in order to better enjoy the fiction. However, even while we are enjoying the story, we are aware that it is, in the end, only a story. It's all made up. This does not correspond to your example of Galaxy Quest where the aliens treated fiction as history. (In fact, they could at first not even conceive of lying.) There's a fundamental difference in basic knowledge there. People know that a story is fictional, but enjoy it anyway. If someone does NOT realize that something is fictional, it is not a suspension of disbelief at all.

And while animism is essentially the belief that everything has a spirit, that term and your idea (I think) that belief or spirit creates life or reality do not mesh. Unless I'm misunderstanding you. It's possible.

Your points are unclear because you are misusing terms. If you want to discuss things, make sure you've got your terms straight first. Otherwise we get into "I don't think it means what you think it means" and everything is confusing.

Personally, I think the idea of "tapping into a pool of dream-spirit" adds an unnecessary layer of mysticism to a process that, while often intuitive and seemingly subconscious, is just as often a carefully thought-out design of elements. Yes, sometimes artists start sketching and produce something wonderfully unexpected. But just as often artists sit down and carefully grid out the perspective and consider the layout of the composition and different elements on the page, and how value and color will change the mood of the finished piece.

When you get into talking about muses or animism or spirits or shared consciousness, you ignore all the work that goes into painting and make it seem like magic, which is not only untrue but kind of annoying.

Suska
September 12th, 2009, 04:10 AM
you ignore all the work that goes intoIf I give a cheer for the color blue am I disrespecting yellow? When I associate Suspension of Disbelief with Animism is that abuse? As far as I know I've used the correct terms properly and it doesn't add labor but illuminates the nature of the labor.

If someone does NOT realize that something is fictional, it is not a suspension of disbelief at all.agreed, its belief itself. As I demonstrated 3 times it needn't be a belief in something abstract or conceptual - it needn't even be considered a paradigm shift. Raven you'd do better to say I'm insane, that I'd admit to. On the other hand my proposition remains undisturbed so far.

kev ferrara
September 12th, 2009, 09:34 AM
On the other hand my proposition remains undisturbed so far.

Congratulations. Go draw.

Suska
September 12th, 2009, 12:25 PM
yessir

Black Spot
September 12th, 2009, 03:54 PM
I’m 48 and still have all my teddies from my childhood. Then I believed they were alive and now I keep them because of the memories of love and happiness. Do I still believe them to be alive? There will always be a tiny part that does, even though I know it is totally irrational – that’s childhood for you. Does this prove or disprove anything? Does it matter?

Suska
September 12th, 2009, 10:28 PM
All is full of Love (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxBO28j3vug) :sungod: