draw what you see vs analyzing

[JParrilla]

Lately in my studies Ive been stuck in the dilemma of draw what you see vs. analyze what you see but dont copy exactly. My studies from Vilppu have me in the mode of not ever copying the model.. but instead you analyze it and reproduce it on paper. You look for volumes, directions and shapes.. but never do a copy. The question I have isnt a matter of construction vs visual drawing.. but instead.. when drawing from life or better yet photos.. are you trying to exactly replicate what you see? When Im drawing a portrait from a photo.. even if its a quick sketch.. I cant help but copy. I try to analyze and all that.. but I cant see how a likeness can be a achieved without copying what you see. I know the purpose of a study isnt to produce a perfect copy.. but instead to learn tone, anatomy, color, or whatever else your aiming for. But Im constantly catching myself directly copying line for line, shape for shape,, and value for value. When I first started drawing.. I was always told... just draw what you see.. not what you think you see. But now certain people are stressing that you shouldnt copy.. but you should interpret whats in front of you. Im a bit confused. Im posting quite a bit of questions lately and I apoligize.. but its coming from the fact that I study various different artists with different approaches and ideas.. and sometimes the ideas seem to collide in my mind and contradict each other.. and it bugs the shit out of me.

[Elwell]

The problem isn't copying, it's mindless copying. If you understand what you are looking at, then you are in a position to make artistic/conceptual/aesthetic decisions about what you are drawing, and how closely you want to follow your source. Otherwise you're just what Stapleton Kearns calls a meat camera.

I've quoted myself from this old thread before, but here it is again:
Drawing is a complex process, which requires the artist to continually switch between several different modes of thought, depending on which one is useful at that particular moment. If I'm drawing or painting a figure, for instance, sometimes I'm looking at it as an abstract collection of flat tones and shapes, sometimes as a collection of three-dimensional forms in space being effected by light, sometimes I'm thinking about the names of the bones and muscles and what they are doing, and sometimes I'm thinking about what my artistic intention is with the piece and how I have to interpret and modify what I see in order to fulfill it. Training that leaves out any of those modes of thought is incomplete. Making art takes your whole brain.

[JParrilla]

exactly Elwell. Thats what I mean... and that quote is perfect. I understand that it takes a whole bunch of different thought processes and methods to create art. It seems that when I post some of my studies.. a common response I get is that I should stop copying. For instance I was doing a figure painting in PS from a photo that kept looking like crap.. and I was being told to stop trying to create an exact copy of the photo.. I understood that.. but when I went back with that I mind.. I found myself not having a clue what to do. If I wasnt copying the photo.. what was I doing with it. It makes sense in my mind not to copy.. but I cant always grasp what I should be doing instead

[p sage]

exactly Elwell. Thats what I mean... and that quote is perfect. I understand that it takes a whole bunch of different thought processes and methods to create art. It seems that when I post some of my studies.. a common response I get is that I should stop copying. For instance I was doing a figure painting in PS from a photo that kept looking like crap.. and I was being told to stop trying to create an exact copy of the photo.. I understood that.. but when I went back with that I mind.. I found myself not having a clue what to do. If I wasnt copying the photo.. what was I doing with it. It makes sense in my mind not to copy.. but I cant always grasp what I should be doing instead

I think you should immerse yourself in Vilppu's gesture-phase, and don't worry about coming out of it until you break the habit. But it all depends on what you want to do. Ultimately, if you want to do portraits, maybe you should look at something more like Betty Edwards' techniques.

[JParrilla]

well I dont want to exclusively do portraits .. I want to do all sorts of character and figure work. I do wanna do portraits.. but not just portraits

[Elwell]

It's all about intention. For some people, reproducing what's in front of them as exactly as possible is the goal. And even if that doesn't happen to be your goal, it's still a valuable skill to have in your tool set. The problem comes when people mistake their aesthetic judgments for moral judgments.

[JParrilla]

It's all about intention. For some people, reproducing what's in front of them as exactly as possible is the goal. And even if that doesn't happen to be your goal, it's still a valuable skill to have in your tool set. The problem comes when people mistake their aesthetic judgments for moral judgments.

I gotcha. you see the problem arises frequently with my quicker studies and less with my more finished work. With finished work I usually know what I want theend result to be so I know how to approach it. But for example.. sometimes I like to do pages of small quick portraits so practice faces.. not a specific aspect of a face.. but just general practice of a bunch of varieties of faces. And I never know how to approach them.. Do I construct them with form? Do I copy like a flat 2d image? Etc? Maybe Im thinking the wrong way here and this shouldnt be an issue?

[JJacks]

From looking at this thread and previous ones, I think you might be stressing too much and over thinking things. You don't want under think things and not learn but at the same time I think you're just putting unnecessary stress on yourself because sometimes you know the answer to your own question.

To answer you most recent question, just get started. That's the hardest part. Once you have some lines on the paper it's easier to approach drawings. When drawing something new or different, I start with line and then work my way up to blocking in simple shading, and then work myself up to complete renderings. I don't have to do line drawings all the time and I don't have to shade everything all slick all the time. Whatever I feel like doing or I feel I have a weakness in I do it. Worrying about "how should I do this" is just going to stall you.

Back to what Elwell said, and I'm not sure if he'll agree, but something that helped me learn how to copy and analyze things was to draw objects or something from life, scaled so large that it was pretty abstract. Like for instance I did a few studies of vines, cacti, and flower petals. I'm not only copying something, but I'm seeing all those important little value shifts, analyzing the texture and discovering how to simulate it, and exploring shape and value. Then I would go to a portrait and I would feel better about analyzing a face as planar shifts, abstract shapes, and also as features. It actually helped me and I found that after doing those two sorts of studies sort of side by side, I could even get my likeness down.

EDIT - Oh and the most important thing I learned from doing those studies was to omit and tone down certain elements for compositions sake. Like if I am drawing a self portrait and my nose has a really dark shadow under it. I might want to tone down that shadow in my drawing because my nose is huge already and I don't want it to be distracting. Or maybe I want to tone down the highlights on my face that came from the camera lens. Or maybe I want to soften the edges of my face where it meets my hair. I think that counts as interpreting what I see instead of blindly copying it. I may be wrong, but maybe that's what people are getting at when they give you advice.

[Black Spot]

Draw without thinking that you have to draw what's in front of you. Break it down into pure shapes that are relative and the likeness will emerge

[Elwell]

But for example.. sometimes I like to do pages of small quick portraits so practice faces.. not a specific aspect of a face.. but just general practice of a bunch of varieties of faces. And I never know how to approach them.. Do I construct them with form? Do I copy like a flat 2d image? Etc? Maybe Im thinking the wrong way here and this shouldnt be an issue?
Remember, you don't have to draw in just one way.
A while back a fellow artist was looking through my sketchbook and asked, "who did this one?" He was a little surprised when I said it was all me.

[Craig D]

dilemma of draw what you see vs. analyze what you see but dont copy exactly.

The other issue to consider is that we can rarely copy exactly. Whatever your choice of materials that day, you will probably not have something that can replicate the range of values that you see in front of you. You are always having to make decisions about whether to leave something out or to condense some values in order to mimic the value relations you see in front of you.

[JParrilla]

Ok so its really about making smart artistic choices when needed. I think im digging too deep into thought and its messing my head up.

[arttorney]

We've reached one of those "Use the force, Luke." kind of moments. I'm not trying to be a smart ass.. Maybe go out today and take some first steps into that larger world.

I can see from your posts that you have done a lot of reading etc. so It won't be primitive art you make, even if you don't think while you are making it. The human brain is mighty sophisticated but it needs to learn not to fight against itself.

[JParrilla]

thanks man.. your right.. Ive gained a lot of knowledge.. now its time to use it but not overthink it.

[mizunodave]

Bump for good reading. This thread helped me crystalize some thoughts and questions I've been trying to put into words. All about moving past "draw what you see" and recognizing it as just another tool. Goes hand in hand with understanding the difference between copying from photos and life versus using them as true reference for coming to know your subject so well that you can competently adjust what you see to meet the needs of your composition. And now to go spend the rest of my life learning to do that..

[Bowlin]

Ok so its really about making smart artistic choices when needed.

More like refining your design choices as you work.

EDIT: Didn't realize it was a necro thread.

[BillTheBro]

i copy all the time... i really cant help it and i think ive gotten pretty good at it. But once the reference is gone, i am completely disarmed and lost. I can visualize what i just saw, something new shoots into my head.


anyone have exercises that could help me improve this?

[Immortal Cintiq]

This is from my personal experience, and I hope it helps.

About two year ago I was obsessed with vilppus method of figure drawing. I approched my figures and imagination figures in the construction approached.
What i noticed about drawing in this method, at least for me, I got too caught up in the creating the form instead of seeing what the figure actually looked like.

Afterwords I drew strictly 2 dimensionally for a while. Drawing in these two methods I've learned to mix the two.

Being constructive helps to build a 3d manikin in your brain. Its also gives weight and mass to your drawing
Drawing in 2d makes me aware of the silhouettes and contours. I can actually see what the shoulder or pinky toe looks like, regardless of construction although having a sense of the 3dimentinallity in the back of my head.

I guess the idea is that a good drawing mixes both 2d and structurally drawing. I can kind of see that lack of silhouette and contour in some of vilppu's students actually. I hope this sorta helps you. lol

Also its good to draw without thinking once in a while, but I dont suggest you stop overthinking anything. I read in one of malcolm gladwells book somewhere that what separates a virtuoso from an amateur is the fact that professionals never get out of the thinking process. Amateurs who get good enought dont have to think about the activity too much, but stops improving because of this.

I guess for the visuals in your head, ahh man.. i have the same problem. Its hard to keep one thing going. But doing long slow studies is sorta helping me.

[stabby2486]

Drawing what you see and analyzing/constructing what you see aren't seperate. You're just focusing on what is essential and what ever gives structure to what you're drawing. But you still need to be able to break down things into 2D shapes. If you wanna move past that you have to memorize the forms of what you're drawing and the rules of perspective.