Regarding art talent

[Xeon_OND]

Hi all,

I'm currently reading Betty Edwards's book ("Drawing from the right side of the brain"), recommended by one CA member here (Oluyesi, thanks a lot!) :)

I'm now at chapter 4, and found the book to be very good for a total art idiot beginner like me who can't even draw better than a 2-year old toddler.

As I was walking back home today after work, I thought about the book, and then my mind drifted to talented artists.

Betty Edwards say that art is a teachable, learnable skill, but is that true? When you were a kid and attended art classes, you'll no doubt notice that some kids can draw very well in the very 1st lesson when the teacher haven't even teach anything much yet, while some of us tried to draw a simple crap for 2 hours and it doesn't even look as good.

So, I'm kinda worried that after reading Betty's book, I'm still gonna have problems visualizing and drawing, although she claims in her book that all her students who went to her 5-day art-class can draw those awesome self-portraits shown in her book without exception.

I was thinking, if we need inborn talent in order to be a good artist who can draw at least decent-looking, respectable web comics or cool sketches, and I've none, then maybe I might as well save my time and give up now?

Although I must admit that whenever I fantasize of how well I can draw in future (if that ever happens), I'll be the happiest guy in the world!

Thanks for any opinions and insight,
Xeon ;)

[Flake]

Betty Edwards say that art is a teachable, learnable skill, but is that true?

Yes.

Reading the book is not enough, you have to do the exercises.

[Swampdigger]

There have been tons and tons of threads about talent, two of them are

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=154499&highlight=talent

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=123502&highlight=talent

Within those threads there are even more links, plenty to keep you busy.

To answer your question if it's possible to get "decent" just by hard work I say absolutely yes. No question. Something that might interest you is Mindcandyman's sketchbook thread. Here (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=870&highlight=journey+of+a+total+beginner)It's a huge thread, but notice his paintings and drawings on the first pages and then look at some of his last stuff.

I wouldn't worry if you have a "talent" for art or not, if you enjoy doing it, isn't that enough? It might be a different answer if you were dropping everything for an art career, but it doesn't sound like that's your issue. Just have fun, practice, draw a LOT, get critiques and apply them, and you will get better, even if you have no natural talent.

[J Wilson]

First yes, art is a skill you can teach and improve.

I think "talent" is just a combination of enough interest in a subject to put in the time without feeling like it's work or study, and perhaps a natural predisposition to the type of thinking that makes that subject easier to absorb.

For example, most artists I know take an approach of drawing from the general to the specific. If you already think in those terms, then art will come easier. In this case what could be called talent is just a way of thinking that lines up very well the subject matter. However, just because it starts off easier for one person, doesn't mean that there is a cap on how far another person can take the skill, once they've adjusted their own thinking.

[Jonas Heirwegh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_ppzoN8j-4

[Kjesta]

So, I'm kinda worried that after reading Betty's book, I'm still gonna have problems visualizing and drawing, although she claims in her book that all her students who went to her 5-day art-class can draw those awesome self-portraits shown in her book without exception.

Perhaps read it and do the exercises first instead of worrying. You can always be disappointed afterwards, but why not be optimistic and give it a chance?

And concerning those portraits, I think learning something entirely out of a book on your own and having someone teaching you face-to-face for five days is a bit different. Don't compare yourself to ANYONE, just try to do your own best, otherwise you'll just end up frustrated ;)

[dcorc]

Betty Edwards say that art is a teachable, learnable skill, but is that true? When you were a kid and attended art classes, you'll no doubt notice that some kids can draw very well in the very 1st lesson when the teacher haven't even teach anything much yet, while some of us tried to draw a simple crap for 2 hours and it doesn't even look as good.

There is a logical error in your thought-process here. The kids who can draw well in the first lesson before being taught have simply already figured it out for themselves or have been taught the core ideas previously elsewhere. This says nothing at all about whether its a skill you can learn. Its an observation akin to going to a gym and seeing other guys lifting heavy weights, and instantly giving up (on the basis that they must presumably possess some innate talent which you don't have).

Betty Edwards is correct. It is true that art (or at least being able to draw and paint reasonably competently) is a teachable, learnable skill.


Dave

[JParrilla]

your wondering if you should give up?? now thats an attitude that'll get you nowhere fast. you cant think like that and expect to improve at all

[Bentley]

It's going to take a lot of hard work and effort to be able to draw half decently. Reading one book isn't enough.

[Arshes Nei]

You could read another book.

Art & Fear by Ted Orland.

[Interceptor]

talent is an excuse people use to rationalize thier own shortcomings and lack of effort. they say "I'm jusy not born talented like other guys." Talent is a myth, a boogeyman that you should just ignore. if you want it, go for it. Make it happen. Art is teachable, learnable, it is not a natural gift.

[pegasi]

I can´t really understand why there are people who still think that there is no such word...

Talent means that one person has a natural aptitude for something. Being that said, it is obvious that there are people with different talents in the world.
Even if you don´t exceed in nothing there will be things that you do best.
If there are people with more I.Q then others.. if it is proven that the brain works differently in each person, i don´t really understand how some people manage to think that...
My father has the aptitude to memorize all the path's he goes trough, he simple won´t forget it and it has always been natural for him. I, in other hand, have a a enormous difficulty to memorize even the simplest path. So to me my father has talent...

[dcorc]

I can´t really understand why there are people who still think that there is no such word... Talent...

Its not that we believe there is no such word.

It is that we are trying to get across the message that those who are relatively inexperienced and unskilled often greatly overrate the importance of "talent", when they are looking at the work of those who are more experienced and more skilled.

I'll be blunt here (sorry, no offence intended to anyone here, but its an educational site, and sometimes its necessary to be more direct in order to drive home an educational point) - you will note, if you look at work done by those who post on this issue, wherever it comes up, that generally those who think talent is very important tend to be among the less "talented", and those who think talent is significantly overrated tend to be among the more "talented".

And those more "talented" people are in a better-informed position to point out that what is being looked at is not "talent", but the acquisition of skill by study and practice.

The corollary of this, for those who think its all about talent, and that they are "untalented" - is that in fact you simply need to study the correct information and then apply it. If you have not made progress, it is either because you have not been studying the most efficient and effective approaches, and/or you have not been practicing sufficiently. Both factors are important - some people do not have adequate levels of commitment - but a commoner problem is a misguided program of study due to the generally poor state of art-education - a factor which is now changing in no small measure due to the dissemination of solid art educational information by means of online forums such as this one.


Dave

[Ninjerk]

I've heard about quite a few of my classmates having a good critical eye or talent or whatever, and I've been kicking their asses for weeks in portrait painting. Get known.

[the_jos]

I can´t really understand why there are people who still think that there is no such word...

Talent means that one person has a natural aptitude for something. Being that said, it is obvious that there are people with different talents in the world.

Aptitude is something that might be natural, but you can also get it by learning or developing.
What matters most is what people call passion. If I have natural a aptitude for art but lack passion my works will probably be of less quality compared to someone who lacks natural aptitude but has passion for making art.

And it's clear why passionate people will be better. It's because they are willing to invest much more time and effort into learning and developing.

Then the question is: Is passion something you can learn, something you can develop?
Sure, why not. Most people don't develop a passion for something over night.

The trick with what we call 'talent' is that people with the natural aptitude you mentioned are often rewarded for developing it.
Take your dad and the paths he always remembers. Suppose he can already do that and his father or mother notices it. And they give him emotional reward by telling him that's awesome or by telling others about his 'gift' while your dad could hear it. These little things have a serious impact on people, unfortunately the same goes for downplaying something they like. Specially when it's from someone very close to them (relative, good friend).

Overall I'd say that passion is far more important than aptitude.
The only exception is the very high end of things, just like some people's bodies are more fit for basketball than others and some people's brains are more fit for maths than others. Then you need both passion and aptitude.
There is a fair chance people won't be the next Rembrandt or Da Vinci. But that doesn't mean they can't become a decent or even great artist. Ferdinand Bol is far less known than Rembrandt but I wouldn't call him a bad artist....

[Carbono]

Art is, by essence, a multi-faceted activity. To make a fully developed illustration or painting you have to put lots of different things into activity.

You got to put your eyes, brain, shoulder, arm, hand, fingers... Its only natural to believe that sooner or later you'll need to use something that is more, or less developed than in other people.

On my sketchbook people usually talk about how my color "paintings" surpass my drawings and studies. I've never liked writting in school, I was never into sports, so its only natural that I have an extremely hard time drawing precisely, for example...
I'm not a very patient person too, so you can expect my studies to suffer if I have to stop and stare at the same thing for hours... now you can expect from this that my learning of anatomy ends up being slow. But at the same time you can expect me to be able to memorize the things that I've learned pretty well, because i make lot of effort to recall from my memory.

I could go on and on with my self analisis, but the point is, everyone got their differences, but in the end we get even... In somethings you go faster, in others you go slow.
In classes probably some kid will be very good at the beginning, and then, months later, someone else probably surpasses him in something else...

Of course, iif that kid knows what he is good at and what he is lacking, and practice, he will be unbeatable.

In other words
Talent = Hard Work.

[kev ferrara]

The sensitivity of your imagination is talent. Everything else is craft.

[p sage]

Hi all,

I'm currently reading Betty Edwards's book ("Drawing from the right side of the brain"), recommended by one CA member here (Oluyesi, thanks a lot!) :)

I'm now at chapter 4, and found the book to be very good for a total art idiot beginner like me who can't even draw better than a 2-year old toddler.

As I was walking back home today after work, I thought about the book, and then my mind drifted to talented artists.

Betty Edwards say that art is a teachable, learnable skill, but is that true? When you were a kid and attended art classes, you'll no doubt notice that some kids can draw very well in the very 1st lesson when the teacher haven't even teach anything much yet, while some of us tried to draw a simple crap for 2 hours and it doesn't even look as good.

So, I'm kinda worried that after reading Betty's book, I'm still gonna have problems visualizing and drawing, although she claims in her book that all her students who went to her 5-day art-class can draw those awesome self-portraits shown in her book without exception.

I was thinking, if we need inborn talent in order to be a good artist who can draw at least decent-looking, respectable web comics or cool sketches, and I've none, then maybe I might as well save my time and give up now?

Although I must admit that whenever I fantasize of how well I can draw in future (if that ever happens), I'll be the happiest guy in the world!

Thanks for any opinions and insight,
Xeon ;)

I have to caution you about Betty Edwards, Xeon, before misconceptions set in about her technique.

It's not that her information isn't correct; it is. It's your assumption about what you are learning (or not) that is faulty.

When I went through her course, it was obvious that what I was learning wasn't an aptitude for drawing. It was just a different way of perceiving what was in front of me. I could draw (with circus-freak like accuracy) every detail and nuance in one of my hands, where before it just looked like garbage.

Now this is the important part. I didn't ever feel like I was learning how to draw when I did her exercises--even after doing some very accurate drawings.

Of course, this is because my mind wasn't engaged in the act of perception; in other words, there was no consciousness behind my efforts. My drawing hand was just unconsciously copying what my eyes perceived.

Does this mean Betty Edwards' book is worthless to beginners? No.

I think its purpose isn't to teach you to be a master artist; rather, it's to let YOU know that YOU can do it... that you possess the physical tools to become an artist. Her exercises are definite proof that EVERYONE has the physical tools to be an artist. But, it's the years of engaging your mind with the work of practice that teach you how to be an artist.

[OmenSpirits]

You could read another book.

Art & Fear by Ted Orland.
Ted?


STOP PUSHING YOUR BOOK ONTO EVERYONE!

DAMN!

:D

j/k

(should have a stickie for that book somewhere for those with this question to read)-

[Xeon_OND]

Thanks a lot to everyone who has given their advice here.
The amount of life and art advice here across all the forums are more than what most books can teach. :)

Reading posts and threads here is more enriching than attending an art class since talents from all over the world are here. :D

I have to caution you about Betty Edwards, Xeon, before misconceptions set in about her technique.

It's not that her information isn't correct; it is. It's your assumption about what you are learning (or not) that is faulty.

When I went through her course, it was obvious that what I was learning wasn't an aptitude for drawing. It was just a different way of perceiving what was in front of me. I could draw (with circus-freak like accuracy) every detail and nuance in one of my hands, where before it just looked like garbage.

Now this is the important part. I didn't ever feel like I was learning how to draw when I did her exercises--even after doing some very accurate drawings.

Of course, this is because my mind wasn't engaged in the act of perception; in other words, there was no consciousness behind my efforts. My drawing hand was just unconsciously copying what my eyes perceived.

Does this mean Betty Edwards' book is worthless to beginners? No.

I think its purpose isn't to teach you to be a master artist; rather, it's to let YOU know that YOU can do it... that you possess the physical tools to become an artist. Her exercises are definite proof that EVERYONE has the physical tools to be an artist. But, it's the years of engaging your mind with the work of practice that teach you how to be an artist.
So, Betty Edward's book is more about opening our eyes up to being able to "see things" and then draw them accurately?

In other words, her book doesn't focus much on the actual drawing techniques, right? (I'm at chapter 4 now, btw).

It's a pity I'm not in the US, otherwise I would attend her 5-day course (according to one guy who has been to her 5-day class, the students sit down and draw non-stop for "10 hours per day).

I'm just gonna give it my best shot and finish her book.

The only problem is that I seem to really lack time to practice drawing.
If someone can give me some advice on my timetable, I would be so grateful.

My normal schedule is as follows:

Mon - Fri
9:00 AM - 6: 30 PM --- Working hours (if boss isn't around, I can draw from 9:00 AM - 10:30 / 11:00 AM)
7:30 PM --- Reach home
7:30 PM - 8:30 PM --- Dinner + TV + read newspapers (all at the same time)
8:30 PM - 10:00 PM --- Play xBox 360 games
10:00 PM - 11:30 PM --- Surf net (forums and some research)

Sat and Sun
9:00 AM - 1:00 PM --- Play xBox 360 games
1:00 PM - 2:00 PM --- Lunch
2:00 PM - 3:00 PM --- Rest
3:00 PM - 7:00 PM --- Drawing
7:00 PM - 10:00 PM --- Dinner + TV + family time
10:00 PM - 11:30 PM --- Surf net (forums and some research)

That's my usual schedule. I don't go out often and don't have a gf now, so it's good.

Is this too little time spent on drawing? Maybe someone can edit my schedule above so that I can have more time in drawing.

I don't wanna sacrifice too much family bonding or the time spent on personal stuff like surfing the web / meeting pals etc. :mod:

[JParrilla]

well youre only drawing 2 days out of the week!!!! must u play xbox ans surf the internet everyday for that many hours? thats definetely not an artists schedulee

[whitepython]

i also started with betty edwards and you need to mix her book with real life lessons, and re-check it every now and then, i pretty must spent one year re-reading it like a bible mixed with artistic drawing lessons, and you get to observe so many things you would have never tought about

i have to agree with everybody else in here, people arent born with a talent, you pretty much develop stuff depending on your experiences, if people were born with the talent to draw, they'd come out of their mother's womb with a sketchbook and a box set of fancy european pencils

[Amber Alexander]

You could add in a little bit during the week, like 10 minutes after lunch. Go outside and just sketch whatever, don't take it too serious.

[SilverClock]

The most obvious thing to do would be to cut out gaming time and replace it with drawing time.
Letting projects or events outside of your craft seep too deeply into your life will slow your progress with that very art which got you here..or will get you there. An eye must be kept on that balance where your skills improve but your business life, social life, volunteer work, travels, and the like thrive as well. For every great artist there is one thing which they all share together. Art is a top priority in their life. ~Jason Manley
I'm working on this, myself...It depends on how important art is to you.

Edit: Yea, Amber, that'd be good...I've been wanting a pocket sketchbook just for that..

[Xeon_OND]

Thanks guys! Yeah, I'll try to cut down my gaming time.

One more thing, for those of you guys who first started out learning to draw, do you take short breaks in between?

Maybe I'm not use to drawing for more than one hour straight, but I kinda feel tired and my focus / attention waning after 1+ hour drawing without stopping.

[Xeon_OND]

i also started with betty edwards and you need to mix her book with real life lessons, and re-check it every now and then, i pretty must spent one year re-reading it like a bible mixed with artistic drawing lessons, and you get to observe so many things you would have never tought about
For me, my plan is to finish her book first and then read other beginner books, and then maybe move on to learning how to draw realistic pencil sketches and human anatomy.

i have to agree with everybody else in here, people arent born with a talent, you pretty much develop stuff depending on your experiences, if people were born with the talent to draw, they'd come out of their mother's womb with a sketchbook and a box set of fancy european pencils
To me, talent = learning things much faster than others when all other factors are the same
(e.g: 2 kids who go to art school with 0% art experience, and Kid A learns and draws a lot faster and way better than Kid B, and Kid B has to spend 1500% more effort just to remain on par with Kid A). :);)

[SilverClock]

I'm basically just really starting out and what I do is I make sure to draw everyday for at least 1-2 hours...and I just read my anatomy book on top of that. My friend who is an excellent pianist told me that practicing a little every day is much better than every-once-in-a-while, all-day cramming sessions.
On days when I'm feeling particularly inspired, I just draw for most of the day...but that doesn't happen very often. I'm gradually increasing the drawing time though, and I plan to get a scanner for my birthday (which is on the 27th)...then I really should be making some progress through critiques.
Just doing anatomy studies can get pretty dull sometimes so some nights I just crank up some music and go crazy in my sketchbook, and really let loose.
I'm still trying to get my whole drawing schedule to the way I want it..I plan to do much more life studies...
Learning just snowballs..you learn one little thing, and another, until you learn how to draw something super-cool. The more you practice, the easier it will be to set aside time and spend longer periods of time actually practicing.
It can be hard to let go of games, internet, and just being lazy...but I'm tired of wasting my time.
And I'm really tired of hearing all of this inborn-talent bla-ness. Just WORK HARD. PERIOD.

[Kjesta]

Seriously, I'd cut out an hour of gaming a day (or half an hour for starters) and just get drawing. I have the bad habit myself of always having something "to do": school, homework, writing, reading, internet, watching TV, gaming, sewing, figuring out how to make the perfect vegan brownies. Now, I know that a lot of this is not terribly important compared to doing something that I love AND that will help me get my dream job, so if I have the feeling I haven't drawn enough yet for the day, I look at what I was about to do and just leave things out. While I'm sure as hell not gonna compromise the brownies, an hour less of watching TV won't hurt me and save my braincells.

Also, work your way to it slowly. I don't think I'd survive yet an 8 hour drawing marathon everyday because my concentration isn't good enough yet. Even now, I split my drawing time up, so sometimes I do my 90 minutes in three sessions, or one, or seventy-five, it doesn't matter as long as I get it done. And more and more, I feel the need to stay put after that and draw MORE because I feel that my 90 minutes still weren't enough. So I draw more. I'm currently working my way towards two hours a day. That's still peanuts compared to what other people manage, but it's better than nothing and I'm working on it. I try not to feel bad about it and instead just work my way up. With time, you'll notice that half hour of gaming becoming less important to you than working on your art. Just stick with it. Let it become a routine, something that you do automatically each day because it's simply what you do, like sleeping and going to work.

[Crass]

Thanks a lot to everyone who has given their advice here.
The amount of life and art advice here across all the forums are more than what most books can teach. :)

Reading posts and threads here is more enriching than attending an art class since talents from all over the world are here. :D


So, Betty Edward's book is more about opening our eyes up to being able to "see things" and then draw them accurately?

In other words, her book doesn't focus much on the actual drawing techniques, right? (I'm at chapter 4 now, btw).

It's a pity I'm not in the US, otherwise I would attend her 5-day course (according to one guy who has been to her 5-day class, the students sit down and draw non-stop for "10 hours per day).

I'm just gonna give it my best shot and finish her book.

The only problem is that I seem to really lack time to practice drawing.
If someone can give me some advice on my timetable, I would be so grateful.

My normal schedule is as follows:

Mon - Fri
9:00 AM - 6: 30 PM --- Working hours (if boss isn't around, I can draw from 9:00 AM - 10:30 / 11:00 AM)
7:30 PM --- Reach home
7:30 PM - 8:30 PM --- Dinner + TV + read newspapers (all at the same time)
8:30 PM - 10:00 PM --- Play xBox 360 games
10:00 PM - 11:30 PM --- Surf net (forums and some research)

Sat and Sun
9:00 AM - 1:00 PM --- Play xBox 360 games
1:00 PM - 2:00 PM --- Lunch
2:00 PM - 3:00 PM --- Rest
3:00 PM - 7:00 PM --- Drawing
7:00 PM - 10:00 PM --- Dinner + TV + family time
10:00 PM - 11:30 PM --- Surf net (forums and some research)

That's my usual schedule. I don't go out often and don't have a gf now, so it's good.

Is this too little time spent on drawing? Maybe someone can edit my schedule above so that I can have more time in drawing.

I don't wanna sacrifice too much family bonding or the time spent on personal stuff like surfing the web / meeting pals etc. :mod:

I don't really know what you are aiming for, but someone posted a Malcolm Gladwell video the other day where he talked about the 10,000 hour rule, which basically says that you'll need a good 10,000 hours of practice to become accomplished at a specific skill like drawing. If this is true (which I think it is, to a degree), it will take you 24 years to become a great artist if you spend 8 hours a week drawing. I'd say, if you really want to become a great artist, you need to throw your games away and live art. Of course, that might not be what you want at all, if you just want to take it casual and learn to draw decently there is no hurry, but I'd take the advice that others have given and cut down a little on the gaming, and spend at least some time every day drawing.

It almost sounds like I'm trying to scare you, lol, don't worry, do things in your own pace - but count on the fact that you will get better the harder you work.

[plundh]

Talent is just one word for all those unknown factors that goes into making a great artist. The most important part is the ability to figure stuff out for yourself. I suspect it's a learnable skill; too bad nobody teaches it.

My intuition tells me you can't reach greatness without talent, but with talent being such a vague expression this statement looses it's meaning.

I used to think great art was something non-intellectual that came from the soul somewhere, that people create awesome looking paintings using some mysterious inspiration they've always had with them. It's only recently I've started to realize you actually have to be goddamn smart to be a good artist.

Then again, people's brains all work differently.

Personally I think the amount of time spent drawing is overstated in terms of its importance for improving yourself. I've spent disproportionate amount of time thinking about drawing and painting rather than actually doing it, due to my lazy nature. These are the times where I've had my biggest breakthroughs, where I've discovered new ways of looking at things. For a beginner, getting some mileage under your belt is essential though.

I feel like in this particular case it's not as much about the time spent drawing, but the fact that you have to ask someone else to change your schedule to do more drawing. That's exactly the attitude you shouldn't have. If you can't change your own schedule, you're also not going to have the proactive attitude required to look at your drawings and figure out what's to be improved, seek out the right information and so on. Get your mind on the right track and take control. I used to be the same; fix it as soon as possible and you'll limit your wasted time.

I see some people's sketchbooks stay the same for three years, while some people improve at amazing speed in just a couple of months. There are reasons for this that go beyond adding up hours spent working.

The number one important skill an artist can learn is the ability to see. That's exactly what Edward's book teaches so well. A good eye is the foundation for everything if you want realistic elements in your work. For example, before you get really awesome at drawing the figure from life, studying anatomy is largely wasted time. Draw from life, learn to see.

There is no-one in my sophomore drawing classes who wouldn't have benefited greatly from reading Edward's book. Reading it this early means your off to a good start.

Always be thinking. If you don't know why your drawings are bad, then mindlessly pumping out more will not yield great results. Just doing will let you improve some, but you need to set goals. What is good drawing? How do other people do it? How do I get there? What are my drawings lacking? If you feel frustrated, that means there is a challenge to overcome. An opportunity to learn. Figure out exactly what the problem is and grab it by the horns.

[Lamp]

As far as art goes, it all comes down to what you WANT the most.

If you're serious about getting better, if deep down in your heart of hearts you truly want to be a good artist above all else, then you have to stop treating it like just another hobby, something you do *when you're in the mood*, something you do when a brilliant image pops into your head, when you're feeling *inspired*. The only way to get better is to draw anyway, ESPECIALLY when you're not in the mood, especially when your brain is full of mush, especially when everything you draw looks like a pile of dung and you wanna tear it up into a million zillion tiny pieces, snap your pencil over your knee and never think about drawing ever again. I treat my personal art routine like it was a class in school. From 9-11 at night, that is just what I do, period, no matter what, and there better be a damn good reason if I skip it, and yes I'll need a doctor's note, so no faking sick!

I understand your dilemma on a personal level -- I used to be a really dedicated gamer. I spent several hours playing games every night, and when I wasn't playing them I was on forums reading about them. I worked my art in when I could, but somehow I never seemed to get much done. Then one day it clicked. Beating the next video game was not what I *really* wanted. It's a personal choice, and plenty of people would just rather veg out when they get off from their day job. For most people, that is what they really want -- to work during the day, relax in the evening, and they get by just fine that way. Sorry to be blunt, but if conquering the next game is what you really, truly want, then that's that. Doesn't mean you have to give up drawing entirely, but it does mean that you're not going to improve -- certainly not at any reasonable pace, at least.

Giving up (at least a large portion) of your gaming habit, something that you probably love dearly, seems like a pretty bleak prospect, doesn't it? Luckily, art is fun! And bonus: the more art you do, the more fun it gets! Online art communities like this one art just the icing on the cake. :D

You say that drawing very well would make you the happiest guy in the world, so what's the problem? Pull out your sketchbook every night (yes, every night!) and get crackin.

[Taneli]

Who do you want to be? Here are some black and white choices:

1) An art monster. Quit your job and draw until physically damaged. Wait to heal and continue.
2) A hobbyist. Draw every now and then and have fun not having fun because nothing ever comes out right.
3) Some pseudo-intellectual contemporary artist. A popular choice. No drawing skills required. Cut your unit, stick it in formaldehyde and label the work "Adventures of a penis with no man". Guaranteed success.

Bad jokes aside, your current schedule isn't very good. Draw 1-2 hours daily since you are a total beginner. Drawing too much immediately will suck you dry fast. I have experience. I believe about 10 hours a week is a good amount for starters. When you begin to feel more confident, add to your drawing time. If at some point you decide art to be your main interest, you might need to find a job that doesn't eat up most of your daily hours. Then, with more time in your hands, you can really find out what drawing is all about and why the majority quits while some persistent inviduals decide to push forward.

[p sage]

So, Betty Edward's book is more about opening our eyes up to being able to "see things" and then draw them accurately?

It's not that cut and dried, but more or less. You have to mix (as someone else mentioned) this new perception with other study and practice.

In other words, her book doesn't focus much on the actual drawing techniques, right? (I'm at chapter 4 now, btw).

How to hold your instrument, how to make marks... no. It's good exercise in concentration, really. The more you do the exercises, the better you will get at concentrating on what you're doing. It's like your eyes take over and your mind shuts up. In that sense, you do get more accurate.

Her studies can be very time consuming, so I would suggest supplementing them with other types of studies like life drawing and anatomy studies.

[Xeon_OND]

Seriously, I'd cut out an hour of gaming a day (or half an hour for starters) and just get drawing. I have the bad habit myself of always having something "to do": school, homework, writing, reading, internet, watching TV, gaming, sewing, figuring out how to make the perfect vegan brownies.
Thanks! Well, maybe you could try selling your vegan brownies here. :D


Just doing anatomy studies can get pretty dull sometimes so some nights I just crank up some music and go crazy in my sketchbook, and really let loose.
I haven't really read up on anatomy studies yet, but I think I might find them interesting since I really like to draw humans. :)


It almost sounds like I'm trying to scare you, lol, don't worry, do things in your own pace - but count on the fact that you will get better the harder you work.
Oh yes, I really did kinda freak out when I read your post. :)


I understand your dilemma on a personal level -- I used to be a really dedicated gamer. I spent several hours playing games every night, and when I wasn't playing them I was on forums reading about them.
You say that drawing very well would make you the happiest guy in the world, so what's the problem? Pull out your sketchbook every night (yes, every night!) and get crackin.
Thanks for the advice , Lamp. Yeah, currently, I'm quite a lot like your old self : play plenty of games (although I never do WoW or computer games) and read / post in game forums when I'm not playing.

Come to think of it, if I had to choose between getting better at art and getting better at games, I would pick getting better at art and will glady dump my game console away.

After finishing Edwards' book, I'm gonna buy a table and put it in my study room so that I can close the door and concentrate drawing. I really wish we have 48 hours per day, so that we can spend 8.5 hours in the crappy office, 3 hours on game, 8 hours on sleep, 6 hours on eating, 6 hours on watching porn / sex and the rest all on art.


Who do you want to be? Here are some black and white choices:

1) An art monster. Quit your job and draw until physically damaged. Wait to heal and continue.
2) A hobbyist. Draw every now and then and have fun not having fun because nothing ever comes out right.
3) Some pseudo-intellectual contemporary artist. A popular choice. No drawing skills required. Cut your unit, stick it in formaldehyde and label the work "Adventures of a penis with no man". Guaranteed success.
LOL, I'm definitely not 1) and 2), so maybe I'm gonna fit into 3.

I don't really plan to work as an artist or full-time illustrator, but I would like to draw like some of the folks here who can do those beautiful anatomy studies and posermaniac sketches (where the proportions of the human figure is so wonderful-looking).

My eventual goal is to be able to do realistic human face / human figure drawings in pencil (meaning, I look at a face for 5 - 10 mins and study it and then draw it on paper like the real thing). I'm not really that interested in the painting areas, though.

Ever since I was a kid, I've had wild crazy ideas on stories and all that, but have never been able to draw / illustrate them out. I hope one day, I'll be able to express my thoughts through art (recognizable drawings, of course!LOL :D).

Bad jokes aside, your current schedule isn't very good. Draw 1-2 hours daily since you are a total beginner. Drawing too much immediately will suck you dry fast. I have experience. I believe about 10 hours a week is a good amount for starters.
I must admit that I kinda get restless and frustrated and impatient and even angry while doing those upside-down drawings in Edwards' book.

It starts out fine the first 40 mins or so, everything's cool and I'm happy, but around 50 mins and beyond, I started getting cranky and edgy. :)


Her studies can be very time consuming, so I would suggest supplementing them with other types of studies like life drawing and anatomy studies.
Thanks, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea now to mix Edwards' book with other anatomy books....it'll probably make me more confused. :)

I plan to read other books and then re-read / cross-reference her book only after I'm done with the 1st read.

[whitepython]

as well i suppose i can add something else, when i started with this drawing stuff, well, i was very insecure because of the "being born with talent" stuff, untill somebody told me: "if god doesnt bless you with talent, steal it from god" and i think that was the thing that made me start to draw and leave behind silly excuses

as well i was a very active gamer, hell, i used to play 8 hours everyday, today, i only play a bit of Nintendo DS when im out waiting in a room or something like that, less than one hour, the last game i played was fallout3 when it first came out, so yeah, its been a while since i touched a console

but yeah i must agree what everybody says in here, if you want to draw seriously good pictures, you need to take art seriously as well

[Xeon_OND]

as well i suppose i can add something else, when i started with this drawing stuff, well, i was very insecure because of the "being born with talent" stuff, untill somebody told me: "if god doesnt bless you with talent, steal it from god" and i think that was the thing that made me start to draw and leave behind silly excuses
LOL, same as me. I was totally insecure when I read Betty's book last week. When the book mentions about drawing the self-portrait of ourselves as a measure of our drawing skills, I was so scared that I don't even want to draw the thing out.

I mean, nobody is gonna know how ugly my self-portrait art is gonna be since I'm alone in my room, and yet I don't even dare to start until I keep re-assuring myself this isn't gonna be death. :)

Anyway, I almost died of a shock just now while doing an exercise in her book.

In the Pure Contour Drawing exercise, the book says to draw the wrinkles on your left hand without looking at what you're drawing. It says observes the lines and curves of the wrinkles on your left hand and set the alarm for 5 mins and stop when the alarm stops.

I was too engrossed and jumped up when the alarm rang and my heart stopped for like 3 beats. :D
This isn't good.

[whitepython]

LOL, same as me. I was totally insecure when I read Betty's book last week. When the book mentions about drawing the self-portrait of ourselves as a measure of our drawing skills, I was so scared that I don't even want to draw the thing out.

I mean, nobody is gonna know how ugly my self-portrait art is gonna be since I'm alone in my room, and yet I don't even dare to start until I keep re-assuring myself this isn't gonna be death. :)

Anyway, I almost died of a shock just now while doing an exercise in her book.

In the Pure Contour Drawing exercise, the book says to draw the wrinkles on your left hand without looking at what you're drawing. It says observes the lines and curves of the wrinkles on your left hand and set the alarm for 5 mins and stop when the alarm stops.

I was too engrossed and jumped up when the alarm rang and my heart stopped for like 3 beats. :D
This isn't good.

yeah, pretty much like i said, no worries, its all about doing it, and having the real goal to do it, its like everything in life, you have up and downs, good days and bad days

my art teacher told me that drawing was all about relaxing, taking it cool, but as well serious, so, dont stress yourself over if the first works doesnt comes well, it will take a while, so you might as well enjoy as you walk down the road

[Xeon_OND]

Oh, and one more thing. :)

Does anyone here regularly do "Pure Contour Drawings"?
It's an exercise in Betty's book and it's whereby you look at the wrinkles in your non-drawing palm and draw the palm's wrinkles out on the paper without looking at the drawing.

The objective is to force the brain to use R-mode.

As quoted from the book:

"I can assure you that Pure Contour Drawing will permanently change your ability to perceive. From this point onward, you will start to see in the way an artist sees and your skills in seeing and drawing will progress rapidly."

How true is this? If it's that good, I'm gonna practice this contour thing for at least 30 mins everyday.

[SilverClock]

I came across something like that while looking through some self-portraits:
http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=144248

and in that thread, I came across..
sweet stuff man, i like the amount of experimentation you got going on, just a crit, the pen one shows a lack of confidence in your lines, try to nail those lines with longer strokes, doing blind contour exercises or just drawing without lifting the pen can really help improve your line quality.~paperX

Sounds to me like such an exercise would improve your confidence. Instead of fumbling over your lines all the time. Some people call it "petting the lines".

See:
thanks for the crit paperx, i have noticed that i draw with many light/loose lines to find the line i'm looking for, i really should try to get away from that, or choose when to do it. heh....~*ViRuS*

^I do that too. You can look at his self-portrait that he did in pen to see what I mean.
So I'll try out that blind contour study tomorrow, thanks :teeth:

[ijacobs9]

"Hard work beats talent hands down any-day!"
-Artist who's name slipped my mind

[Bill]

Don't confuse draftsmanship for drawing. Draftsmanship is the ability to put recognizable shapes and values on paper. It's craft, a skill, that can be learned with practice and study.

What you do with that skill, the creativity, is where the talent comes in. Solving a problem, setting a mood, expressing an idea, telling a story, capturing an interesting moment, inventing a character or a place; that's drawing.

Anybody can, with practice, learn to type. Not everyone can learn to write.

[Xeon_OND]

Don't confuse draftsmanship for drawing. Draftsmanship is the ability to put recognizable shapes and values on paper. It's craft, a skill, that can be learned with practice and study.

What you do with that skill, the creativity, is where the talent comes in. Solving a problem, setting a mood, expressing an idea, telling a story, capturing an interesting moment, inventing a character or a place; that's drawing.

Anybody can, with practice, learn to type. Not everyone can learn to write.
True, but for guys like me, hell.......I'll be thanking the heavens if I can just be decent at "draftsmanship". In fact, my biggest wish now is to be able to "see clearly" and draw things down on paper to make it convincing and real.

In other words, if I can get beyond my.....maybe say, 8-year old drawing skills, I'll be really contented. :)

To be honest, I'm kinda scared and worried about what if after reading Betty's book, I'm still unable to "see".

That's why I'm doing the exercises several times over again and again. ;)

[Xeon_OND]

Oh, and if anyone is interested, here's an online test to determine whether your left or right brain is dominant:

http://brain.web-us.com/brain/braindominance.htm

My result was my right brain is more dominant, but I think that's inaccurate! :D LOL, cos' if my right brain is really dominant, then I would have been Durer or Picasso long ago. :)

[pegasi]

I had all the answers (18) from the left brain! Never thought to be possible lol.

[p sage]

To be honest, I'm kinda scared and worried about what if after reading Betty's book, I'm still unable to "see".

That's why I'm doing the exercises several times over again and again. ;)

This is why I suggest you supplement your learning with other types of learning; life drawing especially.

In other words, don't bet all your chips on Betty Edwards' book.

[Bentley]

I used to draw for 10+ hours everyday, my lifes changed a bit since then but the most progession I've ever had was when I would just draw all day, and read books and other internet material for the rest of the time I was awake. I know this sounds obsessive and maybe even ridiculous, but that's what it takes to become as good as the established artists out there. (not saying I am, but one day)

[mbarq]

Definitely true.

I have not read the book (although I will since I keep seeing the name pop up), but from the things I've read from great artists (especially on this site), and the things I've seen and experienced so far, this is truth.

dcorc and the_jos really hit it on the head. From what I've seen, one can have predisposition to something, you can be good at something but it's what you do with that that really determines everything.

I had a classmate my 2nd year in highschool, she was really good. She was as you mentioned the kid that did well the very first lesson. I was in awe, it was photorealistic it looked almost like a picture. She was also very smart, took like 10 AP tests and got 5s on all of them. She layered very well, colors were insanely accurate, just...perfect. She graduated and went on to Harvard and is doing something in law now (I think).

Anyway, I found conceptart two years later, and got to looking at some of the stuff on here. This was probably the best thing that has ever happened to me art-wise. The artists on here are just insanely good. But it was a good in a better way because, it was good in a sense that they weren't just copying, as Mentler says:

"Draw what you see, know what you see, then draw what you know you see"

Did I get that right? Anyway, point is, the drawings here had experience, they had mileage they had knowledge, there was blood, sweat and tears in those pieces. The paintings done by my classmate were good, excellent actually, but....it didn't move me like some of these simple gestural figure drawing you'll find here. Her painting though superb, had a certain naïveté about them; it was not masterful.

This classmate was talented, she was a person who: possesses unusual innate ability in some field or activity. But there's more to it than that I think. You need to have a passion for it, you need to have perseverance for it. The stuff can't be taught, but you can sure as hell learn composition and color theory (amirite?), as swampdigger said, just look at MindCandyMan's Sketchbook; 'nuff said.

The only exception though, from what little (very little) I know of the subject, are savants (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckqDX2XpdyY). Even then, I'm not sure if savants truly understand what they're doing (think constructivism). I'm not sure if they have that mileage that people who have been practicing for hours on end have. Or if they have had so much information fed into them due to their disorder of being able to take in vast amounts of information, that, they do understand it, but on more of the superficial. Or if savants are the more advanced version of someone who possesses unusual innate ability in some field or activity; uber-talent.

Giving up? That's up to you. I have a feeling the book Arshes Nei posted is pretty hardcore about it (only $10 too!).

[Xeon_OND]

I used to draw for 10+ hours everyday, my lifes changed a bit since then but the most progession I've ever had was when I would just draw all day, and read books and other internet material for the rest of the time I was awake. I know this sounds obsessive and maybe even ridiculous, but that's what it takes to become as good as the established artists out there. (not saying I am, but one day)
LOL, you're just being humble, dude! :D
At a rate of 10+ hours of drawing daily, you're gonna have Marvel Comics or some big art studios begging at your door to work at their company sooner or later.

People like you who eat art, breathe art, wear art, make pals with art, drink art, marry art, f*** art truly will go far in life.


This is why I suggest you supplement your learning with other types of learning; life drawing especially.
In other words, don't bet all your chips on Betty Edwards' book.
Thanks, and one question just came to me after reading your sentence above. Is it a good idea to start learning life drawing for a total beginner?

From a logical viewpoint (at least my current opinion), learning life drawing is like learning to do olympic high jumps before you know how to crawl.

I wonder if I should like spend time learning cube / shape drawing or some simple stuff before moving on to life drawings. The thought of those 3D super-realistic human faces with light-&-shadow shading just makes me crap my pants with panic, I must admit. :D

[Kjesta]

Thanks, and one question just came to me after reading your sentence above. Is it a good idea to start learning life drawing for a total beginner?

From a logical viewpoint (at least my current opinion), learning life drawing is like learning to do olympic high jumps before you know how to crawl.

I wonder if I should like spend time learning cube / shape drawing or some simple stuff before moving on to life drawings. The thought of those 3D super-realistic human faces with light-&-shadow shading just makes me crap my pants with panic, I must admit. :D

Why not do both at the same time? Spend an hour doing basic shapes and stuff, then an hour of life-drawing. Or half an hour this, then half an hour that, then repeat, whatever works for you. I've never really bothered much learning to properly render cubes, spheres, etc (not that I'm that experienced anyway) and I really have to work on those things now, still doesn't keep me from simultaneously (this is one difficult word to spell!) doing life drawing.

[Ito Saith Webb]

Well it seems a lot of people have given you good advice and feed back and here is mine. There is such a thing as talent, however I think that a common misconception of talent is that it is the ability to draw awesome. Talent is really not that at all but rather a combination of natural aptitude, desire, and imagination. Talent is nothing more than a spark that gets artists going.

Do you like to draw? Do you feel the need to draw? Do you sometimes draw when you don't know that you are? (doodling) Do people notice your drawings? Do you daydream a lot or create in your mind? Does your heart sometimes sing when you draw? If you can answer "yes" to most of this than you talent.

Talent though isn't enough to being an artist because talent is only the spark plug of an artist, sure some artists may have more spark plugs of talent then others but even if you have one you can still be an artist. That spark just gets you going while the rest is just hard work and determination. Anyone can draw and be good at it but I think the true meaning of being an artist is that it calls to you and says that it would be against your nature to be anything else but an artist.

There are professions out there that require that you have drawing skills but doesn't mean that you are an artist. Paleontologists, architects, some kinds of doctors and many more need to have drawing skills and I have seen them with awesome skills but little talent or desire to be an artist.


Hope that helps.

[p sage]

Thanks, and one question just came to me after reading your sentence above. Is it a good idea to start learning life drawing for a total beginner?


Definitely. Check out Vilppu, who might be the best-kept secret in art instruction.

His methods are a bit different than classical instruction, which tends to focus on memorizations and facts (head proportion vs. chest cavity, how many heads high a figure should be, what muscle fits into which other muscle, etc). Instead he starts you out with a small "toolset," if you will, and builds on that. What's great about his method is that it gives you a firm foundation from the start for both types of drawing--academic and stuff from imagination.

If you want to do any type of figure drawing, my recommendation is to begin learning gesture drawings... and Vilppu is a master at teaching ways to approach gesture.

[Ito Saith Webb]

Originally Posted by Xeon_OND View Post
Thanks, and one question just came to me after reading your sentence above. Is it a good idea to start learning life drawing for a total beginner?

I would have to agree P Sage as well. This is an awesome way to get better and whats more it is awesome when you take a Beginning Life Drawing class instead of or in conjunction with a book. The reason being is because in that type of class you will be given exercises that will literally break you down and build you back up. I will warn though that first semester of beginning life drawing will make you feel like you can't draw a worth of beans.

I remember when I first went through one of those classes, it was hell, especially the gesture drawing because you only get from 30 sec to 2 min poses and you are supposes to do gesture drawings as fast as you can because the model will keep changing poses on you.

I still hate them to this day but at the same time I love them because I know they make me a better, faster, and looser artist. It also builds muscle memory into your wrist and arm because you learn to draw using your arm instead of your wrist. The more you do them the more drawing the human body will feel natural to you. In fact I had already done 2 semesters of life drawing before I took the required beginning drawing class and everyone including myself could see a difference between my work and theirs.

I have just started going to Cal State Fullerton and I will hopefully be taking Upper Division Life Drawing which I hope will be brutal, even though I fear it will be too at the same time, because I know that it will temper my already growing skills and become a most powerful Jedi........er I mean Artist.


Umm anyways, hope that helps.

[Bill]

Draw something and post it in a sketchbook thread. Put a link to that thread in your signature. Go to other peoples sketchbook threads and say positive things. A lot of them will return the favor and as such you'll be getting feedback. You'll be able to guage that feedback relative to the work of the person giving it. Keep doing this and in about 20 years you'll be decent.

[Xeon_OND]

First, thanks a lot to everyone who reply to my thread. :rocker:

Um, P Sage, when you say "Vilppu", I assume you're talking about "Glenn Vilppu"? That's what I get when I googled for "Vilppu".

I hope he sells books and manuals, cos' if he only conducts live classes, then obviously I won't have the money to buy an air-ticket to fly to America just for his classes. :D

I see his website here: http://www.vilppustore.com/manuals.htm
and it's pretty promising.

Maybe he's the Betty Edwards in the world of human anatomy. :D

[nicehighs]

20 years? I hope you're joking lol. Bentley hit it right on the money. The masters are addicts

[p sage]

First, thanks a lot to everyone who reply to my thread. :rocker:

Um, P Sage, when you say "Vilppu", I assume you're talking about "Glenn Vilppu"? That's what I get when I googled for "Vilppu".

I hope he sells books and manuals, cos' if he only conducts live classes, then obviously I won't have the money to buy an air-ticket to fly to America just for his classes. :D

Yep, that's him. He also sells videos, which are quite good (if not polished).

As for this '20 years' business... lol... I refer you to the MindCandyMan thread (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=870) ;)