peta/vegetarism

[Jorn]

I don't know what you guys think about vegetarism , but i'm proud i am one.

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=mym2002

(shocking content)

[mtw]

I think PETA sucks the big one. They'll fund groups like the ALF and ELF (pretty much terrorist groups). Some head guy also said he/she would like it if all cows got hoof and mouth disease, so then they'd have to be destroyed and people couldn't eat them. PETA is too much of an extremist group.

[Jorn]

no offence mtw ,
but I think Americans use the word "terrorist" too much , it's bugging me to be honest.
Since 11 september 2001 everyone who does something wrong is a terrorist. And is someone who comes up for animal rights a terrorist...?

I respect your opinion about peta etc , but just wanted to say this.

Jorn.

[Hanuka]

regarding that topic, take a look at this nice guy's Website (http://maddox.xmission.com)

;)

Actually Iven been more or less vegetarian when I was younger, but just because I didnt like the taste of most kinds of flesh/steaks.
Nowadays i still dont like certain steaks, but its just a matter of taste and I dont approach this topic ethically.
I think the treatment of animals grown up to be eaten is mostly awful, but on the other hand i think were supposed to eat meat by nature anyway. I like burgers, wheres the sense of convincing all world to become vegetarian, so industrial mass-slaughtering would stop? It wont stop. The only thing to improve are animal-rights.
Though I think you can be proud of being a veg, its your decision.

[Wednesday]

That's some very unsettling stuff.. and arent these animals fed with.. left over animal parts? thats supposably how mad cow started in europe.

I'm not against eating meat, only the mass slaughter thing really. I've been a vegetarian for awhile because of this, and going vegan looks very tempting now after seeing that :eek:

and that terrorism thing, it depends on what perspective you look at them from, they could as easily be called 'freedom fighters' depending on the situation.

[Jorn]

"i think were supposed to eat meat by nature anyway",
sure i don't prevent you from eating it , i just want to show how the condition of most animals used for the food industry is.


wednesday , indeed , the perspective is rather important , not the deeds.

[bRyaN]

freedom fighters?!

THe thing that pisses me off is why special focus groups try to tell me what i can or can't do....pisses me off royally...

BEcause certain people decide not to eat meat , or play violent video games, doesn't mean they have the right to impose that no one should do it....

but to clarify my standpoint i have no "beef" with anyone who choses to eat only plant"life"...

[Jorn]

"The thing that pisses me off is why special focus groups try to tell me what i can or can't do....pisses me off royally..."

what about politics,school,... then? Not only these special focus groups as you call them try to convince you imo.

"Because certain people decide not to eat meat , or play violent video games, doesn't mean they have the right to impose that no one should do it...."

are they really imposing it in your opinion , don't know ...

[Erik]

... yawn ...

Eat meat or don't eat meat, just don't do the same discussion three hundred times over.

If you're upset about it, do something about it. Talking is easy.

[Jorn]

true ,it's and endless discussion and everyone has his own opinion.

[bRyaN]

edited...

Erik is right...no need to go on...

[gekitsu]

re vegetarian/vegan: if someone is happier not eating meat, he/she shall be happier with it for gods sake. it's just that "i am better" attitude that pisses me off.
issue a) humans are omnivorous, so a vegetarian isn't actually living "closer to humanity"
issue b) if animals are life worth preserving, plants are, too.
i, for my part, am happier eating meat cause i like it. simple as that.

re peta:
there is a line between stating an opinion, standing up for your opinion and infringing other people's rights or good taste with your opinion.
see the issue with jasons cat... if the asshole went to jason and told him that he has a problem with this cat roaming freely around the neighborhood, he had stated his opinion and he and jason surely would have found a solution. instead, he hijacked the cat, put it to the vet and got it declawed. which is a deed simply out of what he is allowed to do. period.

peta, as well as greenpeace and several other of those groups crossed the line of either what is allowed (an antifascist group in germany burned the death in june tourbus... even if dij were the most rightwing band on earth, antifa wouldn't have the rights to go into their own guerilla war with them - this is what police and the whole justice system is here for) or at least the line of good taste (talk about that hoocaust campaign of peta) too often in my eyes.

closing, i am fine with you being a vegetarian, you can have any reason for it you want. the only thing i want in exchange is that you accept any reason i have for eating meat as well.

[Jorn]

"that you accept any reason i have for eating meat as well"

sure , i do , i don't say it's bad eating meat , i just wanna show some side-effects of mass-comsumption and what's the method most (i say most) meat-companies do.

Jorn.

[cucaracha]

I love meat.

It's the best tasting stuff on earth, I could never be vegetarian.

I respect anyones decision, if one only likes to eat poo, I don't care (no hints, k? :D)

I don't know if any vegan ever thought of that, but cows wouldn't live if we wouldn't eat them.

Cows are useless without taking their milk, meat and leather.
Imagine everyone would become a vegetarian, cows and pigs suddenly become useless, extinction is possible.

edit: oh, and you have to know, I'm living on the countryside. When you go to the butcher, there are signs with the names amd adresses of the farmers delivering the cows and pigs and so on. It's really transparent, I almost know the animals personally :D

cu

[Jorn]

"Cows are useless without taking their milk, meat and leather.
Imagine everyone would become a vegetarian, cows and pigs suddenly become useless, extinction is possible."

i disagree , cows were here before human and what was there use then actually? Since humans have appeared , they're used for these purposes , just as goats,sheep, pigs, ... are .
You can go further in this too , let's say ( it's a bit radical , i know) stones , stones are million years old , but before human was on earth , were they used for something?

Just my opinion ofcourse...

Jorn.

[cucaracha]

well, do you know what cows looked like 50000 years ago?
The cow was domesticated (spelling?) around 8500 years ago.

Its ancestor, the "Auerochse" (Bos primigenius), really extinct... well there are some breedings to recover this ancient animal... but the cow as we know it would exist without us.

[WildSpruceMoose]

My views on peta/vegetarianism are far too extremist to be posting them.

I can sum it up though. If you are peta/veggan/vegetarian, good for you. I don't go around screaming at you for not eating meat, telling you that you should. If you are a veggan etc. and run around telling me I'm a murderer/killer/butcher/going to hell and tell me to stop eating meat I will be mad.

Much respect for people who are vegetarian or whatever and follow a hardcore lifestyle of it. The ones who do it because of peer pressure or grabbing attention give you a bad name. The only way to truly never harm and animal is becoming a one of those monks that grow their own food and sweep insects out of the way as to not harm them. If you are not one of these monks and you tell me I'm wrong for choosing to consume a richer protein source I will be very angry.

But hey. If your a vegetarian and the only reason I know you are is because you start a thread like this. Its alright by me ;) Just don't say my hands are covered with the blood of the innocent please :P

[Jorn]

not at all moose , like i said before , i just want to show the cruelty which is done by these companies , i'm angry that such people exist ( you're not going to tell me that people who work there like those animals , although they like dogs ( which they don't eat in america , i presume).

Just the fact that you eat meat , i don't care , just the same as taste of music/girls/art/... , it's not necesarry to discuss about that.

Jorn.

[WildSpruceMoose]

Just stating my views Jorn. I must say I admire you in a way. Sorry for coming off angry or anything. It is horrible what happens to animals in the mass production farming of livestock. I do support a change in the meat industry. Keep fighting the good fight ;)

[Jorn]

thanks for your support and comment , moose , it's highly appreciated.

Jorn.

[Erik]

... for the record: i am vegetarian too (ok, most of the time, i do eat meat occasionally) ...

The thing is: opinions are right and you should be able to voice them, however:

1. Opinions should be based on facts if you are to have any useful discussion about them, Jorn i see several flaws in your facts that i can spot without even reading up on them. This makes you and the Peta whatever groups sound a little silly and immature and renders any argument based on them powerless.
2. All people have a right to their opinion, so listen to those too and be civilised. This is the line Gekitsu speaks about.
3. Discussion and convincing people is something that can only be done by understanding their feelings and ideas too, and finding a way that you can make them understand that they may have to change their way of life. Screaming that they are wrong usually makes people persevere in their own attitude, as is their good right!

My personal reason for very rarely eating any meat has more to do with the fact that having 6+ billion people on this planet cannot be supported if everyone wants to eat steak than with the fact that i think the cows and pigs are mistreated. i do think that but that's not the problem imo. Meat is just a very inefficient foodsource. It is tasty though!

(btw. if you are a true environmentalist, eating fish is a far greater risk than eating beef or pork, since the latter comes from controlled sources while the fish come from the ocean where ruthless market economy rules until they are depleted...)

I hope you will become a bit less fanatic, we already have far too many fanatics on this planet.

[Rusty Red Robot]

I didn't read the above posts; I'm too lazy. Sorry. I just have to say one thing: If you're a vegetarian because you oppose the treatment of animals, then you might as well start eating meat again. Unless you're VEGAN, and consume some kind of animal products, you're still buying from people who (potentially) treat animals badly. So go vegan or you might as well give it up.

But it's your choice, of course. I don't mean to be an ass.

[davi]

I myself am vegetarian and slowly going vegan.

the procress of going straight into being a vegan isn't quite that easy.... mostly because of my faults.


It really erks me when meat eaters reply to threads like this with hostility or with the thought of vegetarians being hostile to them.

Seriously, This is basicly the same thing as politics, have you ever seen the sites that show tons of pictures of people dying because of american rule, and then you think, "hey... wait a minute!".

This is the same thing, vegetarians just want to speak their mind about something they care about.

I'm not posting here to say "FUCK YOU MEAT EATERS", but i WOULD like to see meat eaters view a short movie about this to allow them to see this information.

[davi]

oh and trust me, if you think a few people saying "hey be vegetarian" is bad, try being vegetarian and shat on by tons of people at dinner tables.

seriously, every day i get jokes like "THEY DON'T EVEN THINK", "DUDE THEIR FISH THEY DON"T HAVE BIG BRAINS"... i mean.. let me eat my damn mushroom sandwhich in peace.

[mtw]

Originally posted by Jorn
no offence mtw ,
but I think Americans use the word "terrorist" too much , it's bugging me to be honest.
Since 11 september 2001 everyone who does something wrong is a terrorist. And is someone who comes up for animal rights a terrorist...?

In this case I believe terrorist is the right word. Both groups have commited arson, sent mail bombs, and used explosives on facilities.

[otis]

If that kind of stuff bothers you, don't bother going to Africa or watching any REAl nature channels. You'd probably start crying about the poor gazell or water buffalo...

It's not apretty thing, but it is a part of life. We need to eat just like anyother animal on this planet. And although I'm not a proffesional, I believe that if you remove such a natural and major staple to the human diet such as meat and protein...you will probably come down with more health problems in your future. ;)

[cucaracha]

@davi: are you a vegan because of the disgusting treatment of animals in those meat factories?
And by disgusting I aim (oh my bad english) for the abusing treatment, harming animal rights or uhm I guess you got the point.

Or do you just don't like the taste of meat?

If you were in my situation - Living on the countryside, knowing from where the meat comes from, with cows directly slaughtered at the butcher, not in factories - would you eat meat then?

I have to say, if I would live in a big city and would have to buy my meat in freezer-bags - I wouldn't eat it.

cu

[Tully]

I tend to disagree with you on that one, Rusty Red Robot. Even vegans can't stop all animal derived ingredients from creeping into the products they consume, no matter how careful they are. Even if they could, one person becoming vegan won't stop all animal suffering. It's about reduction. A vegetarian will reduce animal suffering, and so will a vegan. Even the meat-eater who opts for the meatless spaghetti sauce once a week makes a difference.

So if I can't stop all animal suffering that's caused on account of my consumption, then I should just stop trying? A complete reduction will mean that I had to stop consuming, and that'd mean starving to death! I dunno about you, but that seems a bit on the extreme side to me.

Otis: That's a popular argument... and here's my response. The lion eats the gazelle to survive. It has to or it will die. Can I live without eating that gazelle? I sure can. Can you, or anyone else reading this? Oh yes. If I were trapped on a desert island with no other source of food but squirrels, you'd better believe I'd be setting traps! But the lion's world is not the one that we live in.

About the health problems, you're entitled to your beliefs, but I'm quite certain that I'm more healthy now than I was when I ate meat. I've done a lot of research into it to make sure, and if you really want to know, you can check out the American Dietetic Association's position on vegetarian and vegan diets (http://www.eatright.org/Public/Other/index_adap1197.cfm) . They (a non-vegetarian organization) say that, particularly in the case of vegans, extra care should be taken to get certain nutrients, but it is more than possible to be perfectly healthy without consuming animal products.

Side note: I don't care for PETA. In general, I think they cause more harm than good. They do make nice stickers though.

[otis]

Your idea of "survival" is relative. To me , no I could not survive on just carbohydrates. In fact, I would turn into a fat ass if I could not eat meat. If you ask me, we all should be way more concerned about the shit the FDA lets companies call food. FACT: Sugar, carbohydrates, cornsyrup, and all the shit you cant even pronouce with chemicals, used to keep a long shelf life are worse than some animal being butchered in a butcher shop.
I know ladies who are vegans, tri athletes who are devloping breast cancer like crazy! They would be considered some of the most "healthy" people around. But why are women devloping breast cancer like crazy? Why do you thnk Diabetes is increasing?
If you ask me, meat is not the problem...actually if you just totaly remove a type of food from your diet you are seriously fucking with nature.

just my opinion.

[davi]

i'm veggie because of morals yes

and btw, i love watching animals eat animals, it's the best thing in the world, but that's nature. If you watch that video, that's not 'nature', those are machines that carry chickens upside down into a razor blade to cut their throats...it's very different in my mind.

Also, if tigers had thumbs, and knew how to make burritos, THEN it's not ok...


...i'm a bastard hah

[Fozzybar]

I think nearly everyone here thinks the same about factory farming:

It's not necessary and brutal.

But there are different reactions to that fact. Some continue eating meat others become vegetarian.

So, most of the people think that it's right/ok to kill animals to eat them but not to carry on factory farming.

In my eyes this is the summary for the whole topic...

[Jorn]

"It's not apretty thing, but it is a part of life. We need to eat just like anyother animal on this planet. And although I'm not a proffesional, I believe that if you remove such a natural and major staple to the human diet such as meat and protein...you will probably come down with more health problems in your future. "

Like wtf? You think this is the essential of life?
It's true animals also eat others , but they don't know the word mass-consumption do they (+factories) . this may sound silly , but that's not the way the world was ment to be , i think. ( like davi mentioned )

Anyway , Erik , i'm not making a complaint of people eating , which i already said several times , but i'm complaining about mass-consumption.
You eat meat ? i don't care ... I do care the way meat is brought to you...

[Erik]

... yawn ... read ...

It's not the message bro it's the way you put it.

[bRyaN]

the world is exactly what it is meant to be, with all it's compassion and brutality...

The world constantly manifests it's nature...whether you agree or not...

[Jorn]

It's not the message bro it's the way you put it.

K , you read it your way , others read it their way.
For those who have pity , good , for those who don't , good too.
I just want to say what i think about it ,that's all .

Amen en uit.

[otis]

So Jorn, would you suggest we all live on our own farms and slaughter and raise our own meat???Or would it only be o.k. if we still ran around like natives and hunted them with spears?
I f everyone thinks these farms are unecessary and brutal..what do you suggest? We cuddle and love these animals, then butcher 'em? Waste billions of dollars to make sure they are comfortable and happy before we kill them???
Now I am a big advocate for keeping them healthy and clean, but I don't care how we kill them...they are going to die either way.

Look, the reason we raise these animals, is so that they don't go extinct! These farms are necessary not only for the human race, but also for these animals. Yeah, maybe the farm animal bred to be butchered drew a bad card in this life, but neither Life, God or you can do anything about it.
Although I can respect your reasons for not eating meat, I thinkyour "moralistic" reasoning is irrational and unfounded.
Unless...you can come up with a better solution??

[davi]

your saying that by rasing mutated verisons animals which are stuck in insanely small cages for their life span, that we are helping their race survive?

[otis]

If we didn't eat them / rely on their source of food so much = YES, they would go extinct.

Oh, and yes, animals ARE deformed somtimes when born just like everything else in life. It doesn't make them any less valuable.

And FYI, animals are not a "race"..they are a breed or species. I hope you don't think animals are equal or more important than people...

[AnarchyAo2]

I know that this is supposed to be a serious topic but, did anyone else find this video unbearably funny? I did, lol, the cow getting its bood drained out and the guy throwing the chickens into the trailer were my favorite parts. Haha, silly chickens. :chicken:

[skvv]

DAMMIT davi! what would princess toadstool say? those mushrooms were inhumanely breeded in dank basements under migraine-causing lights for months on end!!! GAH!!!

but seriously... humans are cruel, it's a fact... murder, mayhem, anarchy. we jade ourselves just enough to think we're in the right in all our stations before God and man, but there is that inherent flaw in all humankind, unavoidable by any means. some might call it apathy, but i call it acceptance.

some serious lawmaking needs to be done for the ethical treatment of animals. people should be going to jail for what they're currently allowed to do in the livestock market, simply because animal cruelty laws should apply to ALL animals, and people should (i would) accept the heightened prices of meat as a result. unfortunately, until government organizations inform the public about this, and make some serious changes, the masses won't change a goddamn thing by themselves... and i'm part of the masses. :edit#2: AND until animals can vote, the government won't do jack shit.

:edit: my avatar is a good summation of what i said

:useless-edit#3: I watch the "meet your meat" video when i want to get "in the concept mood"...

[stalecracker]

*snif, snif*

I smell bacon. Do you smell bacon?

[Jorn]

"I know that this is supposed to be a serious topic but, did anyone else find this video unbearably funny? I did, lol, the cow getting its bood drained out and the guy throwing the chickens into the trailer were my favorite parts. Haha, silly chickens."

i'm not going to reply on that, certainly not because of your age...

"I think your "moralistic" reasoning is irrational and unfounded"
Otis , i don't have a good reason or a solution , no , but can you give a reason , why u say this? especially the part about the animals , taht's also necessary for "them".
Did they tell it to you it's necessary or something?

"These farms are necessary not only for the human race, but also for these animals"

[AnarchyAo2]

Jorn, you just replied.
" certainly not because of your age..."
First off, your a year older then me. Obviously you haven't gain THAT much more wisdom then me during that extra year. Because you're juding people by their age. (If you mean, "I'm not going to reply. Its not because of your age." then I'm sorry.)

[stalecracker]

Just me, huh?

[Skank]

Originally posted by evisr8r
unfortunately, until government organizations inform the public about this, and make some serious changes, the masses won't change a goddamn thing by themselves

and there is the inherant problem with this scenerio: the government isnt going to tell us anything that might damage their cash flow. thats what this whole thing comes down to. why do you think they push dairy products so much? theres just as many adds for cheese as there are for beer or tampons for christsake.
money makes the world go round, and hand in hand with that is apathy. im by no means a very politicaly inclined person, but its plain to see that unless we have a total restructuring of the current government, things like this are NOT going to go away, no matter HOW much you might protest or speak up. money talks, so unless you got a way to show that they could make more money by treating our food sources better, they could really give a flying fuck about it.
hehe, maybe this is my immense distrust of polititions, regardless of their chosen party or beliefs, the simple fact remains: money..thats what its about.

[Skank]

Originally posted by stalecracker
*snif, snif*

I smell bacon. Do you smell bacon?

smells good

:D

[otis]

Jorn,
What I meant was most animals go extinct because they are hunted to extinction. Look at what happened to the buffalo. Cows too would have gone extinct a long time ago if we did not need them so much. They provide us dairy and meat...2 essentials for humans.

I agree with skank, $ is a big issue in any free market. Ex: If we had to pay for someone to go around and put little rubber protectors on the beaks of chickens so they would not peck eachother to death, who they hell could afford that?

But I still think that all these animal rights grops should focus their energy on all the crap our FDA feeds us! WTF do you think Americans are so fat and unhealthy??? You go into a supermarket and only 10-20% of the store is veggies, meats, fruits and dairy. Read the back of almost ANY product in a package or box, and you will find more chemicals, preservatives, and sugars (that our bodies don't know how to break down) PLUS..since it technically has no natural fat in it...they sell it as if it is "HEALTHY."

You want to talk about conspiracy, ..fat kids, diabetes on the rise......The FDA is killing us! But that's is another topic.....

[AnarchyAo2]

is it pet-a or pe-ta? Anyway, money is the problem. So why not eat meat? So, if butchering cows alive is legal, could i toss a cow out of an airplane and watch it splatter on the pavement below? I mean, that would be less painful for the cow and for about 20 seconds it could experience 0 gravity! Thats a lot better then grazing the field.

[Jorn]

anarchyAo2 , if you think you're funny , you're not.
actually it's not the age that matters , but the mentality you have, i do recognise this in kids of your age,who think they're better than others , but this can be discussed in a other topic , if you like.

[AnarchyAo2]

Jorn, I posted my opinion about the video. I thought the whole thing was stupid. It was more funny then informitive. The video didn't present actual facts, more then 1/2 of it was hasty generalizations meant to attack the farmers of america. Not once did they mention that farmers go out and give their cows shots, or let them graze in the fields over miles and miles of pasture. No they didn't, the whole thing was a one sided story. And I don't mean to be sterotypical but from the look of those farmers in the videos, they didn't know wtf they were doing. I think that the PETA people went out and chose the worse farmers and video taped them. No, they didn't go and video tape all of the good farmers out there who went to college for 4 years, do all of the handy work on their farms, take care of all their machines and animals and who have great pride in their work. A friend of mine, his dad is a farmer. He went to Virginia Tech for 4 years. Hes a farmer now, he owns his own farm. He doesn't brand his cattle either, no one around where i live does. They tag them with little orange things on their ears. But before they do that, they get some type of chemical that nums (sp?) the area where its going to be tagged. Thats just one fucking example I can come up with. Do you want more? Does this makes me a better person? Do you think you can judge the next person who comes along and laughs? Do you think just because they laugh at a serious issue, they don't have serious opinions?

And Jorn, you say that I act like I'm smarter, or better then other people. Well, if you didn't like me when I'm acting stupid, I bet your not going to like me when I'm serious, Buck-o.