Highest paying Art jobs?

[gballer]

I love art, but I am very wary about making it into a career for myself. I was looking into industrial design and saw that the average salary in the US for an industrial designer was ~47k/yr. a Decent salary but not enough to support the lifestyle I want to live (call me greedy, call me vain but doesn't everyone want to live well?) Would anyone be able to confirm if this information is accurate?

What are some profitable careers that are art based? Preferably one where creativity, skill and ingenuity are highly valued, I want to make a lot of money, but I am also looking to earn it through my own talent, making it even more rewarding.

Also, I'm not sure if this is the correct subforum for this thread. Could anyone point me in the right direction if this isn't where I should be posting this topic?

[Eric Young]

don't expect to bust out of art school and be making a lot of money. Like all careers you start from the bottom and work your way to the top. I know at many companies the leaders do make a good amount of money, art directors, lead artists i believe make close to if not over 100k a year.

But to be honest if your getting into art for the money then that's really a bad move, artist usually struggle at least if their first few years.

[Crass]

I love art, but I am very wary about making it into a career for myself. I was looking into industrial design and saw that the average salary in the US for an industrial designer was ~47k/yr. a Decent salary but not enough to support the lifestyle I want to live (call me greedy, call me vain but doesn't everyone want to live well?)

Since you asked, yes, but it has little to do with money. If you can't live a happy life on 47 thousand dollars a year... Well, good luck to you anyway.

[gballer]

;2347592']don't expect to bust out of art school and be making a lot of money. Like all careers you start from the bottom and work your way to the top. I know at many companies the leaders do make a good amount of money, art directors, lead artists i believe make close to if not over 100k a year.

But to be honest if your getting into art for the money then that's really a bad move, artist usually struggle at least if their first few years.Thank you for the informative post. Yes I understand that I won't be making a great salary straight out of school, just as with most all careers, but I was looking for a salary of 75-80k seven to ten years into the business. Also, by no means am I getting into art for the money, if I wanted to just have a job that pays well I'd become a hedge fund manager. I love art and I want it to be my career, but I also need to know if it can support me and eventually, my family.

[gballer]

Since you asked, yes, but it has little to do with money. If you can't live a happy life on 47 thousand dollars a year... Well, good luck to you anyway.I don't understand why you have to take pot shots at my integrity. 47k/yr is peanuts especially when considering I'll have to live in either California or New York, not to mention if I hope to support my family. Please don't turn my thread into a flame war. If you find it unappealing there's a "back" button on your browser.

[JParrilla]

I don't understand why you have to take pot shots at my integrity. 47k/yr is peanuts especially when considering I'll have to live in either California or New York, not to mention if I hope to support my family. Please don't turn my thread into a flame war. If you find it unappealing there's a "back" button on your browser.

Honestly.. hes right. Coming to a forum full of artists and worrying about making 80k a year is just a turn off. Dont get me wrong.. money is important. If your looking to live a lavish life.. you probably shouldnt be an artist.. period. Money is in most cases an added bonus to creating art. Getting into it for money is totally crazy. You can be a stock broker or a banker or a doctor and blow an artists salary out of the water. I understand where your coming from.. but at the same time you need to realize the harsh reality of it

[gballer]

Honestly.. hes right. Coming to a forum full of artists and worrying about making 80k a year is just a turn off. Dont get me wrong.. money is important. If your looking to live a lavish life.. you probably shouldnt be an artist.. period. Money is in most cases an added bonus to creating art. Getting into it for money is totally crazy. You can be a stock broker or a banker or a doctor and blow an artists salary out of the water. I understand where your coming from.. but at the same time you need to realize the harsh reality of itOnce again I am not getting into art for the money
why are you making that assumption. I want to know if I will be able to live decently off of it if that's the path I decide to take, but I'm done posting in this thread. Big flame war inc. since I'm not like the rest of you who wear 'I'm a martyr for creativity' mask at all times on the forums. I wanted to know the practicality of this career path, but since you'd all just rather paint me as a demon (this is an art forum after all) , I'll let you do so in peace.

[Eric Young]

I don't think he had the intention of trying to get rich off of art but simply wondering if it is possible to make a decent living off of it, and the answer is yes you can. It's human to worry about financial cost, especially since most artists will have tons of student loans to pay off, 47k isn't really enough to rent a decent apartment, pay student loans, support a family, plus the cost of food gas and everything else. This guy simply wanted information on more lucrative jobs in the industry, don't we all want to make a good living at what we love? Let's not attack him and label him as a person only in it for the money.

[Crass]

That's an interesting reaction.

[m@.]

As a concept artist 75k-80k seems standard in a decent company, even early on. And yeah, in california, it's not that high...

[Derek the Usurper]

If 47k a year isn't enough for you and your future family, then you may not want to pursue art. There aren't nearly as many leadership positions as there are the positions which pay 47k or less. It is by no means a sure thing that you will make even 47k as an artist in any industry.

Maybe find a spouse who is a hedge fund manager.

[Zazerzs]

In the games industry, leads, art directors, (top guys) can make anywhere from 70k and up.,depending on size of studio,project,location, talent,experience and a bunch of other factors.

but anywhere between 50 and 60k for other parts of the field is pretty norm.

[•Lindsay•]

I asked a similar question somewhere else a couple years ago, and I got a bunch of replies like “if you want money, go to business school,” like making art and making money are supposed to be mutually exclusive. It’s frustrating how little most artists seem to care about money, and if you express any concern about it suddenly you’re not dedicated enough. It’s kind of silly how talking about money is treated like a taboo subject, especially in this kind of economy.

Anyway, I don’t know that much about it. I don't think anyone does, artists are kind of a small demographic that no one keeps track of. I’m operating on the theory that people get paid the most for what they are most passionate about and best at. People who have the right skills don't seem to have trouble getting jobs. Graphic design is supposed to be easier to get jobs in, but if you're the kind of person who can't really dedicate themselves to graphic design you probably won't get that far. That situation is only going to last until the supply of graphic designers catches up with the demand anyway. Architects are paid a lot but it also seems like their job is more difficult.

[the_jos]

Once again I am not getting into art for the money
why are you making that assumption. I want to know if I will be able to live decently off of it if that's the path I decide to take, but I'm done posting in this thread. Big flame war inc. since I'm not like the rest of you who wear 'I'm a martyr for creativity' mask at all times on the forums. I wanted to know the practicality of this career path, but since you'd all just rather paint me as a demon (this is an art forum after all) , I'll let you do so in peace.

Not so fast, not so fast.
Perhaps you just made the wrong entry with your initial topic.

Suppose you had asked:
"Well, I would need about $80k/year income in about 5-8 years into the career because of reasons X, Y and Z.
Which kind of art jobs would you people recommend?"

You would probably have had better responses than most current ones.

I don't think you are a demon, just that you could have made a better initial question.

[Mabelma]

Hey I too want to live a good life so I though that I would start young and I have since then started making games that would get me some money and I will develop a webcomic to get some money of that too. Then when I get older I will go ahead and be a concept artist and probably a part time art teacher. I think that would get me a good sum of money over the years to begin living life to the fullest. I have to tell you that you can't make a much money only from art and if you do make a lot of money from art you will lose it quickly so start thinking about the things that you could do with your art skills to make a good sum of money. I hope I helped you in some way.

[Penabled]

He thinks it's a flame war after only six posts in which only one was really critical of his expectations? I'm not so sure he would make it as an artist...first serious critique of his work might send him into a cave or something. I'm sure he was just looking for an idea as to which type of work to get into (animation, concept) but I think he might need to get a few inches on his hide before he decides to get into it art as a career.

Just because you are in Cali now doesn't mean you have to stay there...3-4k a month is reasonably good money here in the NW.

[Elwell]

I was looking into industrial design and saw that the average salary in the US for an industrial designer was ~47k/yr.
Do you plan on becoming an average industrial designer?

[Shantih]

I asked a similar question somewhere else a couple years ago, and I got a bunch of replies like “if you want money, go to business school,” like making art and making money are supposed to be mutually exclusive. It’s frustrating how little most artists seem to care about money, and if you express any concern about it suddenly you’re not dedicated enough. It’s kind of silly how talking about money is treated like a taboo subject, especially in this kind of economy.


This would have been true if the OP had been asking if they could make a living wage in this industry, which is a legitimate concern, but they're actually more concerned if they can make above and beyond the average because they want to live in a certain manner. I think there's a difference between worrying about being able to pay rent and buy food and worrying if you're going to have enough surplus cash to buy whatever it is the OP deems so important.

[Mock]

Gballer: It's a forum. Your responsibility here is to pick out the good advice from the bad advice (and the unnecessary commentary). Don't feel the need to defend yourself just for asking a question. The reason people are getting riled up is likely because most people here hope to get any job in the industry. When you're just hoping to be able to enjoy your job whether it pays a lot or not, it's easy to get your panties twisted when someone starts talking money. Ignore it. Their panty problems shouldn't concern you. Defending against every comment is just going to make it more likely for this thread to escalate into a flame war and get closed when it could provide some valuable information for people who are too scared of backlash to ask the same question.

As for your question, I imagine it works like any other career. The better you are, the more you get paid. If you are an incredibly average artist and you can just barely land a job, you will be paid an incredibly average salary. If you're in the top 10% of all working concept artists, you'll likely be able to find a job that pays in the top 10% of the salary range as well. I've met artists who say they have salaries over 90k and I've met some who make 35k. The thing to consider is where you're working. A lead artist for Blizzard is probably going to make considerably more than a lead artist for a small studio that makes exclusively iPhone games. Look at the people working in the big companies, see how good they are, and think about whether or not you can be that good 7 - 10 years into your career. That should give you a good idea of whether or not you can meet your salary expectations.

[•Lindsay•]

This would have been true if the OP had been asking if they could make a living wage in this industry, which is a legitimate concern, but they're actually more concerned if they can make above and beyond the average because they want to live in a certain manner. I think there's a difference between worrying about being able to pay rent and buy food and worrying if you're going to have enough surplus cash to buy whatever it is the OP deems so important.I think being concerned with making an above average living is a legitimate concern also. Maybe the OP wants decent health care, or enough money to send his kids to college. Or maybe he just wants an expensive car. So what?

[Derek the Usurper]

I think being concerned with making an above average living is a legitimate concern also. Maybe the OP wants decent health care, or enough money to send his kids to college. Or maybe he just wants an expensive car. So what?

You can't do that with 47k a year and a potentially working spouse?

[Mock]

You can't do that with 47k a year and a potentially working spouse?

Living in a decent apartment or a house big enough for a family in a major city? Not really. For a 400 square foot studio in the Nob hill area of San Francisco you're looking at $1,000 a month, easily. For a place big enough for a couple with a kid or two? I don't even want to think about how much that would cost.

Sure, 47k is plenty to live a decent lifestyle on your own. But if you want to have a family, travel, have a nice car or house or whatever the hell gets your nut, be able to save for retirement and put your kids through college, it really doesn't go a long way. Especially not in California or New York. Even if it were, so what? The guy didn't ask for judgment on his life goals or critique on his reasons for pursuing art (which people simply jumped to the conclusion were "wrong").

[JessiBean]

http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/416/the_game_industry_salary_survey_.php?page=3

This is a couple years old, but it gives you an idea. Also, don't belabor the 47k thing... it VERY much depends on where you live, because the cost of living varies greatly from place to place (I live in Houston where 47k is quite comfortable and a single family home is as low as $80-100k, where as in LA that would be a very small salary, and a comparable home would be more like $300k) You will need to do careful research about where and how you want to live, based on what jobs are available and what you are qualified for.

[Dusty]

Thank you for the informative post. Yes I understand that I won't be making a great salary straight out of school, just as with most all careers, but I was looking for a salary of 75-80k seven to ten years into the business. Also, by no means am I getting into art for the money, if I wanted to just have a job that pays well I'd become a hedge fund manager. I love art and I want it to be my career, but I also need to know if it can support me and eventually, my family.

Well, I agree that your wage shouldn't be the first thought in your mind...but I can say that depending on the skillset, 75k-80k in video game development at least is definitely possible after 7-10 years...but don't think you can just chill as a UI artist or something and get paid that. But yeah, especially as a lead or Art Director that wage isn't unrealistic at all. I don't have experience in working in IDT personally, but I do have a degree in it and it seems like most of my old classmates are doing quite well now.

Also..if you actually want to be like an art director (high paying, high up the chain), I would HIGHLY recommend abandoning the money thoughts asap. Every AD I have ever worked with has the utmost passion for art on every level first and foremost.
I understand wanting to plan your future...but focus on actually getting in the door first, then worry about where you stand financially. Fact is, working as an artist is an unsure thing. Layoffs happen all the time, can be difficult finding a job even if you are experienced, etc. But seriously, you are too young to be worried about your retirement...

[XanaChama]

Once again I am not getting into art for the money
why are you making that assumption. I want to know if I will be able to live decently off of it if that's the path I decide to take, but I'm done posting in this thread. Big flame war inc. since I'm not like the rest of you who wear 'I'm a martyr for creativity' mask at all times on the forums. I wanted to know the practicality of this career path, but since you'd all just rather paint me as a demon (this is an art forum after all) , I'll let you do so in peace.

I think, internet tactlessness aside, they're just letting you know not to get your hopes up. Nothing in life is guaranteed anyway. If you're willing to put in the hard work and go through it all for something you love, then at least in the end you can say it was worth it. If you end up doing something in life you never truly wanted to do anyway, you might end up saying it wasn't worth it 30 years down the road and then end up regretting your move... something to consider.

Are you living on your own yet paying for yourself? You'll always be able to find a way to survive, even with family... with experience, things get easier. But with the way this economy and world is going, it's arguable that all our jobs/incomes are insecure at this rate. It's possible to live a healthy income on an artist's salary, but you have to be willing to put in a lot of work and pain to get to that point. You may have to rely on your future spouse and luck a bit to make it. Or have two jobs. And be ready to sacrifice... but would it be worth it in the end? It can be done.

[XanaChama]

http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/416/the_game_industry_salary_survey_.php?page=3

This is a couple years old, but it gives you an idea. Also, don't belabor the 47k thing... it VERY much depends on where you live, because the cost of living varies greatly from place to place (I live in Houston where 47k is quite comfortable and a single family home is as low as $80-100k, where as in LA that would be a very small salary, and a comparable home would be more like $300k) You will need to do careful research about where and how you want to live, based on what jobs are available and what you are qualified for.

I am originally from Houston as well and am now living 30 minutes from DC/Baltimore, so I definitely understand where you're coming from when it comes to cost of living. Houses here are around 300-500K for what you can get back home. It's because of the "location". My rent is $900K/mo (the cheapest/safest available), for a one bedroom. Needless to say, I plan on relocating back home in a few years when my SO finishes his schooling.

[HunterKiller_]

Nothing wrong with wanting to be paid well.

Just be crystal clear with yourself that you're making art because you love it, not because you want to get rich.

Ask yourself this question: Would I still pursue art as a career if I couldn't earn big money?

[Ilaekae]

"Once again I am not getting into art for the money
why are you making that assumption. I want to know if I will be able to live decently off of it if that's the path I decide to take, but I'm done posting in this thread. Big flame war inc. since I'm not like the rest of you who wear 'I'm a martyr for creativity' mask at all times on the forums. I wanted to know the practicality of this career path, but since you'd all just rather paint me as a demon (this is an art forum after all) , I'll let you do so in peace."

I've seen obnoxious, I've seen I-already-know-the-answer-I-want defensive, and I've seen arrogant, and this post pretty much falls into every one of those categories.

Get off your fuckin' high horse and think a little bit about what was actually said/meant before posting something like this. Your comments insulted just about every working artist within this forum in one way or another.

I haven't received a salary for ANYTHING since 1966, so I have no way to give you an accurate up-to-date view of what is current, but I can tell you that after over 40+ years of running a business, that being "self-employed" (running your own company) is usually not a way to make a ton of money. Being on a salary is dependent on what's being offered for what you want to do where you are, and it ain't gonna be at the high end for a while, as well as being VERY dependent on things beyond your control--pissing off the boss, competition from outside to replace you, downturns in the vertical business field you're in, and just generally bad economic situations everywhere (an old satellite hits between LA and Silicon Valley and you're flippin' burgers at Hardees...).

From what I've seen above, most of the people tried to give you as honest an answer as they could, and you spit in their faces. Take this as a suggestion...grow up. then come back and ask the questions you want answered again, and maybe they'll give it a try again.

[AChipps]

It is how you live, but minimum wage is a little hard to live on. New York is $7.50 an hour, California is $8.00 an hour and most states are around $7.00 an hour, if you do the math that is under $1000 a month, and $12,000 a year. As a welder I could live easy on $13.00 an hour and that is under $20,000 a year, and that was with making house payments, and driving 64 miles a day to work for one person. If you are married, you can depend on just you making all of the money, while your partner is at home all the time with nothing to do, because they will find something, and it could lead to devorce, and that will cost more. I know that what it takes to live depends on the mistakes a person makes. You can work for ten years, and put away $800 of your pay every month out of the 2,000 a month you make. That is if you only made $24,000 a year. In those ten years you would be living on $1,200 a month which is $300 over minimum wage for any state, but you will end up with $100,000 for a house. If you take out a loan for a $100,000 house instead you would need to live on the same amount for $30 years, before the house is paid for. So, you pay the load company $200,000 so you can get your $100,000 ten years early. That is where people make mistakes, and it cost more to live with one mistake like that, but they do it for a car, and furniture, and anything they want without having the money to pay for it. Now that is a plan for $24,000 a year, twice that much, will give you the option to make more mistakes like that, not make it better. You can think of a plan and stick with it, and it could be shot down if you are out of work, and it takes too long to find a new job, but saving money to buy is the best way, and it gives you something to fall back on, but there are a lot of people than can't do it, because they can only handle a small amout extra, and it's time to spend it. It could be things that you need, but it don't end with that. Too many people I know would spend it on beer, and if they have money left, it would go to drugs, and they are found on the kitchen floor before they are 35, alone and smelling for days.
This is your chance to plan, and take a business class to go with art. If you can't get a job working for someone start a business of your own and compete against them. If nothing the business course will help you handle life, and making good choices. It could lead to a happy life.

[MiniGoth]

In a nutshell, if you're concentrating on the money, you will fail.

Concentrate on the art, and the money might come.

Salaries? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH (gasp) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

You can get security, which is hard. Or you can go freelance, which is harder. Success in both depends upon you.

If you want money, go into banking.

[Zirngibism]

I think it's interesting to ask WHY there is generally so little money in art.

If you think supply and demand, does it mean that there's not enough demand for talented, willing artists, or is there too much supply of them? (Yes, I realize that they're the same in theory, but it depends on how you look at it.)

I always view it as oversupply, because think about it-- many people do art for fun. Many people would probably love to do YOUR job for peanuts because they're so passionate about it. So why would an employer want to pay you a ton of money if there are so many other people clamoring for a job in that art field? Especially if they're fresh graduates who'd be happy with low pay as long it's an actual job in their dream industry.

It's not just hard jobs that earn a lot of money, its often the unpleasant ones that nobody wants to do. If only everyone else disliked making art... :-\

[the_jos]

Zirngibism,

When you say: "It's not just hard jobs that earn a lot of money, its often the unpleasant ones that nobody wants to do." I disagree with you.

Jobs that require tons of study usually pay better because not everyone is willing or able to put that effort (or the money for the study) into it.
Jobs that depend on certain interpersonal skills (sales, account management) that are hard to develop usually pay better.
Jobs that require a huge number of years of experiece often pay a lot.
Jobs that combine certain fields of work often have a very decent pay.
Irregular times often pays more.
Jobs with lots of responsibilities often pay decent.

All those people loving to work in a certain profession, that only drives the income on entry jobs down. How many experienced and good artists are willing to work for peanuts? Probably only a few, the rest needs some kind of income to live. And they often invested a lot into becoming the artists they are today.

I started a couple of times at entry level functions and know that there often can be a sharp rise in income when you are good.
But along that road there is something I learned. When you don't ask for more you might not get more. Or it will take longer. When you love your job and have an income that pays the bills, why ask for more? I think many artists (but also people in other fields of work) suffer from this.
It's easier for the employer, he has someone good working for less than average for that skillset. That means the money can be spend elsewhere. So (s)he often won't start about it till you start about it.

The 'oversupply' you talk about only exists at the low art jobs. Same for many other fields of work. If you are somewhat decent you should be able to get past that and enter the world where supply and demand are (almost) even. And if you are actually good you get to the point where supply is far less than demand.

And remember, good often is the result of hard work. Not so much hard work for the boss, but hard work on improving yourself. The boss may benefit from it, but he should not be the main reason to improve.

[O-mie]

I find it funny that the excuse of living in California is being used as needing immense amounts of money. Sure, if you live in the expensive parts, it'll cost you....but if you chose to say...live 30 minutes+ or so from your work in one of those expensive places, you might find yourself saving a crap ton of money. I live in the bay area of CA when I live in the USA and I feel like I would have quite a lot of luxury for myself with just 40k a year. But, I don't plan on reproducing. :D

I find that if you REALLY want to make something practical out of art as a career, you will need to be doing a lot of multitasking with shitty jobs at first, until you get better connections in the art field.

I myself wish with all my heart to make something of myself in the art industry, more so by my own hands. But I am not above getting a crap job to support myself and get by until I am capable of doing that.

[Bentley]

If your art is amazing, and have up to par business skills, then I think the skys the limit on how much money you can make.

[Zirngibism]

Zirngibism,

When you say: "It's not just hard jobs that earn a lot of money, its often the unpleasant ones that nobody wants to do." I disagree with you.

Jobs that require tons of study usually pay better because not everyone is willing or able to put that effort (or the money for the study) into it.
Jobs that depend on certain interpersonal skills (sales, account management) that are hard to develop usually pay better.
Jobs that require a huge number of years of experiece often pay a lot.
Jobs that combine certain fields of work often have a very decent pay.
Irregular times often pays more.
Jobs with lots of responsibilities often pay decent.

All those people loving to work in a certain profession, that only drives the income on entry jobs down. How many experienced and good artists are willing to work for peanuts? Probably only a few, the rest needs some kind of income to live. And they often invested a lot into becoming the artists they are today.

I started a couple of times at entry level functions and know that there often can be a sharp rise in income when you are good.
But along that road there is something I learned. When you don't ask for more you might not get more. Or it will take longer. When you love your job and have an income that pays the bills, why ask for more? I think many artists (but also people in other fields of work) suffer from this.
It's easier for the employer, he has someone good working for less than average for that skillset. That means the money can be spend elsewhere. So (s)he often won't start about it till you start about it.

The 'oversupply' you talk about only exists at the low art jobs. Same for many other fields of work. If you are somewhat decent you should be able to get past that and enter the world where supply and demand are (almost) even. And if you are actually good you get to the point where supply is far less than demand.

And remember, good often is the result of hard work. Not so much hard work for the boss, but hard work on improving yourself. The boss may benefit from it, but he should not be the main reason to improve.


It's comforting to hear about the supply and demand evening out as one goes up the ladder.

I did want to point out that I realize and understand that there are a lot more factors (such as education) that play into salary-- certainly not only how unpleasant it is! I just took for granted that everyone else knew those things and didn't mention them. I hope I didn't come off as ignorant to you and everyone. And you must admit that "unpleasant" jobs really do pay more if you control for skillset, education, hours, etc...

But perhaps I AM ignorant in a way because I still have a lot of school ahead of me and have never had a full-time job in the art world. I'm just going based on what I've heard in art school, this forum, and miscellaneous articles.


But still, nobody has really answered the question as to why there seems to be so little money in the art field. Perhaps it's just the fact that art is relatively a luxury compared to some of the other industries. It's sort of the icing on the cake. And most people want to make sure the cake is baked before they worry about the icing.

Yeah, I know people might disagree with that and say "humans would be nowhere without art, etc..." and I'm not saying that art is unnecessary for us, I'm just saying that people are willing to spend a lot more on survival (food, health, shelter) than something like art.

[Ivory_Oasis]

Oh, people pay a LOT for art... its a huge huge huge huge huge business.

Movies, games, TV, galleries, toys, t-shirts / clothes, wallpaper designs, advertising, buildings.... really, its all around us in so many forms!

And its making a huge amount of money! Only, the huge amount of money goes to the owners of the companies and stockholders. They are the ones turning the art into an actual business and making it earn money (the actual one producing the art isnt).

The artist is like the factory that makes the shoes for Nike... Nike then turns around and markets / sells those shoes and makes a bunch of money.

The ones that own the business and run the business are the ones that make money, everyone else are just workers.

[OmenSpirits]

Where gballer went wrong was that most here are focused on getting to a professional level or to a level that gets us to a certain plateau, but after 5 posts he/she starts in about money.

Good to think about, but if you haven't been pushing the pencil and pulling your hair out of your head, then you've never considered the sacrifice it takes to pursue and try to become a suitable mate for the sometimes BITCH, sometimes gentle, lover call art.

[Ivory_Oasis]

Where gballer went wrong was that most here are focused on getting to a professional level or to a level that gets us to a certain plateau, but after 5 posts he/she starts in about money.

Good to think about, but if you haven't been pushing the pencil and pulling your hair out of your head, then you've never considered the sacrifice it takes to pursue and try to become a suitable mate for the sometimes BITCH, sometimes gentle, lover call art.

You have to work hard in anything if you want to get anywhere :P

Asking about the money is just being smart. Going into a field with the attitude of "i hope things just work out" is dangerous! You have to have a plan and goal to reach for (so you actually can work towards those things and higher paying jobs in the industry).

Its all about work/life balance! Planning out what is important to you (life isn't just about work) and figuring out what job fits best for that (so things like money, freetime, traveling opportunities, advancement, challenge....all kinds of factors need to be considered before jumping into the pool).

[OmenSpirits]

You have to work hard in anything if you want to get anywhere :P

Asking about the money is just being smart. Going into a field with the attitude of "i hope things just work out" is dangerous! You have to have a plan and goal to reach for (so you actually can work towards those things and higher paying jobs in the industry).

Its all about work/life balance! Planning out what is important to you (life isn't just about work) and figuring out what job fits best for that (so things like money, freetime, traveling opportunities, advancement, challenge....all kinds of factors need to be considered before jumping into the pool).
But asking about it before you possible even train (since, like I said, after 5 posts gballer asked about money and none of us have seen gballer's level to know if they could even get to high-paying) is the cart before the horse.

And to sound cliched, "art is life, life is art. To separate the two, is to defeat the purpose found in both". :D

[Ivory_Oasis]

So... your saying...you should go to college for 4 - 8 years before you actually look into the type of jobs you will be getting? .... umm.... what?

No no no no, god no, dont do that! Look into what you are shooting for before you spend years of your life!! Make sure it really will give you the type of life you want!

And, there is more to life than just producing art... yea, art is fun, but what about a family? What about other hobbies? What about EVERYTHING ELSE IN LIFE?

And thats part of what needs to be looked into. Just how much time you will have to spend producing art to get by (and if that fits in with your other interests / goals).

You have to be smart in planning your future... never EVER go into things blindly because it makes you a "real artist" or whatever else people might tell you. Being stupid about your future never makes you a better anything....

[Derek the Usurper]

You have to work hard in anything if you want to get anywhere :P

Asking about the money is just being smart. Going into a field with the attitude of "i hope things just work out" is dangerous! You have to have a plan and goal to reach for (so you actually can work towards those things and higher paying jobs in the industry).

Its all about work/life balance! Planning out what is important to you (life isn't just about work) and figuring out what job fits best for that (so things like money, freetime, traveling opportunities, advancement, challenge....all kinds of factors need to be considered before jumping into the pool).

I don't think this applies as well with art. Any art industry is going to be somewhat uncertain, and almost impossible to plan for unless you are already amazing. And for the truly great artists, life was all about their work.

[Ivory_Oasis]

I don't think this applies as well with art. Any art industry is going to be somewhat uncertain, and almost impossible to plan for unless you are already amazing. And for the truly great artists, life was all about their work.

People at the very top generally spend more time towards work than other things (like the CEO of a huge company is going to be a real workaholic to get there).

There is some uncertainty with art (such as if a person actually can learn it quick enough or has the capacity for it), but thats the same with any job too (like some people just aren't cut out for learning huge amounts of facts from a book to become a lawyer). You gotta put the time in and get the skills needed...but if you have the training and skill level needed, you should be able to get a job (you gotta have the right kind of training and other features that make you interesting to an employer though!).

If you look at higher art jobs, they want a lot of things like X number of titles shipped (for games) or X number of years, and of course ability is important. And, there is always the networking that you need to have (knowing people in the industry is pretty valuable across the board for jobs!).

I don't think the art jobs are too different than other jobs. Everyone needs X training and proof they can do X number of things that their jobs will need. Once you have that, you are marketable in the job world and can find a place to start moving up / improving.

(((note: I'm not including things like fine art into it... I think thats closer to the world of starting your own business... and then it becomes a lot different than just having the right skills to be a grunt for some company)))

[Dusty]

You have to work hard in anything if you want to get anywhere :P

Asking about the money is just being smart. Going into a field with the attitude of "i hope things just work out" is dangerous! You have to have a plan and goal to reach for (so you actually can work towards those things and higher paying jobs in the industry).

Its all about work/life balance! Planning out what is important to you (life isn't just about work) and figuring out what job fits best for that (so things like money, freetime, traveling opportunities, advancement, challenge....all kinds of factors need to be considered before jumping into the pool).

No offense, but you sound like my dad in 1996...

It used to be "Well...yeah...you could make a living as an artist. Or how about you get a major that is a bit safer and minor in art". Obviously, he was just thinking of my well-being...but I didn't get where I am today by "minoring" in art. I made it my damn life.

:D

[Ivory_Oasis]

No offense, but you sound like my dad in 1996...

It used to be "Well...yeah...you could make a living as an artist. Or how about you get a major that is a bit safer and minor in art". Obviously, he was just thinking of my well-being...but I didn't get where I am today by "minoring" in art. I made it my damn life.

:D

Well... a lot of other majors are "safer", because it's more about the piece of paper you get at the end and less about what you actually know (its showing employers that you know how to learn / follow instructions).

But I think you can definitely go into art as the plan A! As long as you approach it with the right attitude and realistic idea of what is needed to get the type of work you want.

[OmenSpirits]

So... your saying...you should go to college for 4 - 8 years before you actually look into the type of jobs you will be getting? .... umm.... what?

No no no no, god no, dont do that! Look into what you are shooting for before you spend years of your life!! Make sure it really will give you the type of life you want!

And, there is more to life than just producing art... yea, art is fun, but what about a family? What about other hobbies? What about EVERYTHING ELSE IN LIFE?

And thats part of what needs to be looked into. Just how much time you will have to spend producing art to get by (and if that fits in with your other interests / goals).

You have to be smart in planning your future... never EVER go into things blindly because it makes you a "real artist" or whatever else people might tell you. Being stupid about your future never makes you a better anything....
Art is more that production, and art is life if you live in a constant creative mindset. Life is art. Raising kids, working a menial job to earn while you create, etc.

And college isn't a necessity for art or an artist to do.

Remember, I said we don't even know at what level gballer is at to even try to say it would be X amount of time until you'd be able to make a liveable profit. If one would think about what one would make before trying to see if you've got the stamina that art demands, then no one in their right mind would go into a field of such uncertainty like ALL creative fields.

And art is only fun when you're able to realize what you "see" on the canvas, on that bristol board, on paper, in photoshop. Before that, creating art is a trial that many do
not continue.

A "real" artist is practical. That's why those of us not making a living from our craft have day jobs.

[MrSmith]

i assume some of the posters here are very young, or at least single. 47,000 is not enough to raise a family comfortably in CA or NY. not even close. you would be a fool not to ask money questions about a career path, and sorry art purists, this is a career.

and yes, you can and should make a decent wage as an artist. dont sell yourself short. if it were up to these noobs and their "work for whatever and just enjoy it", we'd all be making nothing and being exploited.

luckily, you can make a decent living at production art. my first job, the pay sucked like any other field (but i could live ok off it). but i worked my ass off for a year and found real work. you can make 60k or more easy if youre good. but to make the megabucks, you'll either have to be a superstar, diversify skills, or move up to art director. 100k isnt out of the question, but youre gonna have to work for it (maybe too hard).

[Ninjerk]

Remember, I said we don't even know at what level gballer is at to even try to say it would be X amount of time until you'd be able to make a liveable profit. If one would think about what one would make before trying to see if you've got the stamina that art demands, then no one in their right mind would go into a field of such uncertainty like ALL creative fields.


So he has to prove himself to you to get an answer to a legitimate question?

[OmenSpirits]

So he has to prove himself to you to get an answer to a legitimate question?
No.

He'd get a better answer if we knew at what stage in his art he was at to give him a more realistic answer.

[the_jos]

Yeah, I know people might disagree with that and say "humans would be nowhere without art, etc..." and I'm not saying that art is unnecessary for us, I'm just saying that people are willing to spend a lot more on survival (food, health, shelter) than something like art.

No, no, no, no, no.
When you look at 'primitive' cultures what we call art is all around them.
And it's very important to them.
Take for example the various religious symbols or equipment used in rituals.
Those are made with great care and craftsmanship. Or take the tatoos some cultures make. People stop finding food (which they often have to do daily) to get a tatoo. And those tatoos mean a great deal to them.

It's our society that has changed. And we got replacement for some forms of art. In the past the only way to get your portrait on the wall was having it painted or sculptured. Nowadays I have this small camera that will not only do that but will also take pictures of whatever people used to paint two centuries ago.
On the other hand we got back new forms of art.
TV, movies, games. Companies that create art for other companies (like logo's and such), Industrial design.
Art still has an important role but it's less obvious and some parts are moving away from 'traditional' art.

But still, nobody has really answered the question as to why there seems to be so little money in the art field. Perhaps it's just the fact that art is relatively a luxury compared to some of the other industries. It's sort of the icing on the cake. And most people want to make sure the cake is baked before they worry about the icing.

Is there truely little money in the art field?
When I hear the average is roughly $50.000 I'd say this ain't bad.
It would only be little when living in an expensive area.
Then we have some other thing. When you are on the payroll you get less than you might be able to. That's because the employer arranges a lot of things for you you have to do yourself when starting your own business.
When you get at work you probably there is probably work. And even if there is a period with less work you will receive your check.
When starting to work on your own this certainty is suddenly gone. Find your own work and when you can't there is no pay. And you have to deal with a lot more stuff.
But then, if you are good, you are the person to benefit from it and not the company you work for. And you can earn far more than that $50.000.

And let's take a look at 'average'.

Let's take a look at part of my career. I was working on a 'normal' level function at a company when someone asked if I was not interested in a job at some other company with a different job description. This would however set me back to an entry level job. No problem, pay was about the same. At that company I worked up to senior function. Then I got an offer for my current position from a headhunter. Again a different field of work. I agreed and .... got back to entry level again. Payment remained about the same. Nowadays I'm a senior member of the team.
When a survey is done on income all three jobs often fall in the same generic group. So the thousands of people working in similar jobs like job 1 and 2 are grouped together with the maybe 100-200 people doing roughly my current job in my country. Guess what.... average income is below my income.

That's how the numbers work. Don't look at average. Average doesn't mean much.

Now I can do something unfair. Compare my job to others at my business unit. Not the people earning less than me but the people earning more. And say: "Hey, I can do that job and those guys make about two times my income". I should switch careers if money is important to me.
Comparing let's say art work income to investment bank work income should not be done. People will most likely compare the top incomes of investment bankers to the average income of artists. Sure that's not working. But how much does a top artist have on income? How much is someone like Damien Hirst making a year and should we really compare to his income?

[kennygeeze]

On a side I've wanted to do art for a living since the last half of highschool... and roughly since then I've met a lot of opposition to that hope.

A lot of "that's life -- them's the breaks" people who see it as something very frivolous and think that my time would be better spent in a safer career -- like going into banking or getting a business degree... or going to medical school.

Since that point in my life I've found a salaried art job and the many of the people I know who went to those "safe" options do not have jobs. I have friends who went into finance and could barely find a paid internship at a bank to start there... i have another friend who waitressed for years after she graduated before she could find anything related to her 'safe' degree.

I have friends who didn't get into medical school after going to university for 4+ years and they now have jobs they could have gotten with a highschool diploma or less.

There is no safe. I went through four years of art school fully preparing myself for making peanuts while my original peers who did the 'safe' options rolled in their money in front of me. This didn't wind up being the case at all.

[Mock]

I have friends who didn't get into medical school after going to university for 4+ years and they now have jobs they could have gotten with a highschool diploma or less.

There is no safe. I went through four years of art school fully preparing myself for making peanuts while my original peers who did the 'safe' options rolled in their money in front of me. This didn't wind up being the case at all.

I somewhat disagree with this. Only because it all boils down to how hard you work, not what field you're in. It also comes down to just how persistent you are. If you give up because you don't get in, get the job, make the team, etc, etc, etc, of course you're not going to make it.

Medicine is by no means a safe route if you're not willing to work your ass off. If you are willing to put in the time and effort, however, you can succeed and have a fruitful career. The same goes for art. To get into a good medical school takes a high GPA and a high MCAT score. To get through medical school with high enough marks to get a good internship takes an astonishing amount of work. I have a friend who didn't get into medical school three consecutive years after applying. So he went back and worked his ass off to get his Master's with a 3.95 GPA, took the MCAT again, and he starts med school this fall. Had your friends put in the time and had the dedication, they could have succeeded as well.

I have yet to see the CA sketchbook of the artist who puts in the 10 hours a day of serious study and practice who hasn't been given at least a shot at success. I have, however, seen Cole Eastburn's sketchbook and his unbelievable work ethic and dedication. We've all see Marko's hundreds of Marvel covers per year. If there's one thing that the people who do succeed have in common, it's work and persistence.

There is a safe route: working your ass off no matter what field you're in. Art is as safe as any other 'dream' career in law or medicine if you're willing to work for it. You reap what you sow, as they say. Be a lazy ass and draw a few hours a week because you "don't feel like it" or "aren't inspired", and you will reap the benefits (or lack thereof). Work your ass off, focus on learning, stay dedicated, and you'll make it.

[dashinvaine]

(call me greedy, call me vain...)

You said it.

[J Wilson]

The simplest answer would probably be "let's see your portfolio"

Big money is clearly out there, but how good are you? How smart are you? Can you handle a leadership position and the stress of deadlines? Are you willing to push yourself really hard to get the right positions and experience that will open those higher paying jobs up for you? Is your drive strong enough to carry you through the rough lean times when you have to work your tail off to get the skills you need?

I think the reason so many here give you shit for asking about money, is if you haven't figured out the answers to the questions above, which have nothing to do with money, then you can't know the answer to your question. If you already know the answer to those questions then money is again not a factor because you know you have the drive to make top money.

I guess Elwell put it even simpler with do you plan on being average. If not then why worry about average salaries. If you think you only have average ability then yeah, you'll make average pay. Maybe average pay is better in less "fun" careers, but if you want a fun career and top pay you have to be the best of the best.

[aesir]

You guys are funny.

I fully intend to become rich as fuck through art. How you ask? By being awesome.

Awesome artists get rich. You guys just don't love art enough to get rich. Maybe if you cared about money more you might have more motivation to get awesome.


AWESOME TO THE MAX

[OmenSpirits]

"As much as I wanted to be Gordon Gekko, I'll *always* be Bud Fox."

[Chris Saksida]

I`m a martyr for creativity!

But I understand the point OmenSpirits is trying to make... and that`s one of the reasons why I`m studying for a degree in architecture, I`m trying to take the safer way.

[ZenzybaR]

You guys are funny.

I fully intend to become rich as fuck through art. How you ask? By being awesome.

Awesome artists get rich. You guys just don't love art enough to get rich. Maybe if you cared about money more you might have more motivation to get awesome.


AWESOME TO THE MAX
lol, best theory EVER. I might have to adopt this.

[Bentley]

It is how you live, but minimum wage is a little hard to live on. New York is $7.50 an hour, California is $8.00 an hour and most states are around $7.00 an hour, if you do the math that is under $1000 a month, and $12,000 a year. As a welder I could live easy on $13.00 an hour and that is under $20,000 a year, and that was with making house payments, and driving 64 miles a day to work for one person. If you are married, you can depend on just you making all of the money, while your partner is at home all the time with nothing to do, because they will find something, and it could lead to devorce, and that will cost more. I know that what it takes to live depends on the mistakes a person makes. You can work for ten years, and put away $800 of your pay every month out of the 2,000 a month you make. That is if you only made $24,000 a year. In those ten years you would be living on $1,200 a month which is $300 over minimum wage for any state, but you will end up with $100,000 for a house. If you take out a loan for a $100,000 house instead you would need to live on the same amount for $30 years, before the house is paid for. So, you pay the load company $200,000 so you can get your $100,000 ten years early. That is where people make mistakes, and it cost more to live with one mistake like that, but they do it for a car, and furniture, and anything they want without having the money to pay for it. Now that is a plan for $24,000 a year, twice that much, will give you the option to make more mistakes like that, not make it better. You can think of a plan and stick with it, and it could be shot down if you are out of work, and it takes too long to find a new job, but saving money to buy is the best way, and it gives you something to fall back on, but there are a lot of people than can't do it, because they can only handle a small amout extra, and it's time to spend it. It could be things that you need, but it don't end with that. Too many people I know would spend it on beer, and if they have money left, it would go to drugs, and they are found on the kitchen floor before they are 35, alone and smelling for days.
This is your chance to plan, and take a business class to go with art. If you can't get a job working for someone start a business of your own and compete against them. If nothing the business course will help you handle life, and making good choices. It could lead to a happy life.


If you work 40 hours a week at 13 dollars an hour you should make closer to 26k a year before taxes.

[Zirngibism]

No, no, no, no, no.
When you look at 'primitive' cultures what we call art is all around them.
And it's very important to them.
Take for example the various religious symbols or equipment used in rituals.
Those are made with great care and craftsmanship. Or take the tatoos some cultures make. People stop finding food (which they often have to do daily) to get a tatoo. And those tatoos mean a great deal to them.

It's our society that has changed. And we got replacement for some forms of art. In the past the only way to get your portrait on the wall was having it painted or sculptured. Nowadays I have this small camera that will not only do that but will also take pictures of whatever people used to paint two centuries ago.
On the other hand we got back new forms of art.
TV, movies, games. Companies that create art for other companies (like logo's and such), Industrial design.
Art still has an important role but it's less obvious and some parts are moving away from 'traditional' art.



Is there truely little money in the art field?
When I hear the average is roughly $50.000 I'd say this ain't bad.
It would only be little when living in an expensive area.
Then we have some other thing. When you are on the payroll you get less than you might be able to. That's because the employer arranges a lot of things for you you have to do yourself when starting your own business.
When you get at work you probably there is probably work. And even if there is a period with less work you will receive your check.
When starting to work on your own this certainty is suddenly gone. Find your own work and when you can't there is no pay. And you have to deal with a lot more stuff.
But then, if you are good, you are the person to benefit from it and not the company you work for. And you can earn far more than that $50.000.

And let's take a look at 'average'.

Let's take a look at part of my career. I was working on a 'normal' level function at a company when someone asked if I was not interested in a job at some other company with a different job description. This would however set me back to an entry level job. No problem, pay was about the same. At that company I worked up to senior function. Then I got an offer for my current position from a headhunter. Again a different field of work. I agreed and .... got back to entry level again. Payment remained about the same. Nowadays I'm a senior member of the team.
When a survey is done on income all three jobs often fall in the same generic group. So the thousands of people working in similar jobs like job 1 and 2 are grouped together with the maybe 100-200 people doing roughly my current job in my country. Guess what.... average income is below my income.

That's how the numbers work. Don't look at average. Average doesn't mean much.

Now I can do something unfair. Compare my job to others at my business unit. Not the people earning less than me but the people earning more. And say: "Hey, I can do that job and those guys make about two times my income". I should switch careers if money is important to me.
Comparing let's say art work income to investment bank work income should not be done. People will most likely compare the top incomes of investment bankers to the average income of artists. Sure that's not working. But how much does a top artist have on income? How much is someone like Damien Hirst making a year and should we really compare to his income?


Well, you definitely seem to have more experience than me, so I'll take your word for it. But I must say I still feel more insecure in a type of industry that relies on intellectual property that doesn't directly affect the more immediate needs of humans.

[Meloncov]

i assume some of the posters here are very young, or at least single. 47,000 is not enough to raise a family comfortably in CA or NY. not even close. you would be a fool not to ask money questions about a career path, and sorry art purists, this is a career.

47k may not be enough, but if you have a spouse earning roughly as much as you, you're into the 100k range. That should be enough to let you afford a 200-300k house by devoting roughly twenty five percent of your income to house payments (which is pretty typical, IIRC). That should get you something quite comfortable, and the remaining roughly 45k post tax ought to be enough to cover other expenses. 20k per year in savings (both college and retirement), 5-10k for transportation, 5-10k for food, 5-10k for everything else.


Those are all seriously rough calculations, and looking back on them I realize I ignored some significant costs (insurance, say) but I'm sure it's possible to push the numbers around to come up with something quite palatable.

[Oblivia Enna]

As said before it really depends on where you live for the salary. You can live outside of the major city and find it much more comfortable to live in with the same salary. If you want to afford things, you have to learn how to spend your money frugally and save up to live more comfortably in the future. =) Be more worried about finding a job that you enjoy doing, and want to pursue.

You could always become a teacher. You get summers off, benefits and a retirement!

[Ito Saith Webb]

Just about everyone here is absolutely right if you going into this for the money then that is not what you should do. There is a big difference between a Job and a Career.

A Job is work you do to make money either to buy what you want or need.

A Career is something you don't think of as work, you look forward to it everyday, and if you are lucky you make a minimum living at it. A career in art is part of your life and is your life everyday.

With that said though everyone would love to make a lot of money from their career, but if you make this a "should" to call it a career then it isn't a career but merely a job.

[JeroKane]

I guess it's with all youngsters these days that think of high salaries, big cars, big house and what not.

47k a year as starting salary is a LOT of money! Especially if you are in the early 20's of age. Fresh out of school!

Ofcourse it all depends where you live and what the costs are.

Salaries are always situational. In big expensive cities, the salaries can and will be much much higher, then in small cities and towns out in the countryside.

I work in the IT now for 8 years as IT System Engineer, I am 33 and make roughly 67k a year (before taxes).
My girlfriend works as a teacher, has roughly the same amount of years experience and makes around 60k a year (before taxes).

That's 127k total a year bruto. More then enough to make a good living together and live in an expensive city like Oslo, Norway. And enjoy life!

As with any job. It's about supply and demand.

There are way too many (wannabe) artists around and to make it in such a harsh and tough industry (it's basically the same as being a musician, actor or fashion designer) you really have to show skills and be unique and be able to seperate yourself from the rest.

I have been a DJ for some years myself. So I know how harsh it is and to wich great lenghts you need to go and how many massive concrete walls you have to slam yourself through to get in.

I have seen things during my time as DJ. Done gigs many can only dream off. An awesome experience no one will ever take away from me.
But what did I get out of it financially? Nothing! a 35k debt through investments (expensive equipment, 700 12inch records, drivers license, etc).

Do I regret it? Hell no! ....but in the end I am glad I have a solid fulltime IT job to fall back to and the love of my life I live together with.

That's all that matters.

Many have said it before. You have to start at the bottom! And if you got it in you and the motivation and the skills. You work your way up from there. Building up experience is key!
The more experience you gain, the better you get, the more money you gonna make! Like with any other job.

Jer

[Bill]

So did we ever actually figure out the highest paying art jobs?

This (http://www.mpsc839.org/_Contract/wages_LA/MNWG0102_FRM.HTM) is interesting to me.

[Bentley]

I'm assuming an art director, or the owner of an art company. On a side note, if you can stretch your money you don't have to make that much. Paying rent is the biggest mistake most younger people make, buy a duplex and rent out half of it and you're living for free. Buy your art supplies online, and buy a nice used 4 cylinder car (don't lease) until later on when you have some money saved up to buy a nicer car. Half the battle is
learning how to save your money so you don't need to make copious amounts.

[nonie]

You can make a really good living in art. It's a valid question too, I mean it only takes a few minutes to ask how much you'll make, it's not like you have to spend hours every day thinking about and practicing making money (well actually you kind of do but that's just life). You can still work hard as hell on art *and* hope to make a good living from it.

Just a reminder too - art jobs in expensive places always pay more to cover the cost of living. It doesn't quite even out but if you're just talking dollars on paper, you make a lot *more* in California or NY. I started out at 65k in San Francisco. I got an offer at 55k in Dallas, which equals out to more like making 90k in SF, but I still wanted to live in SF where I wouldn't need a car or die of heat exhaustion 10 steps out of my house, so I took the on-paper-more-but-technically-lower-paying job. But even at 65k it would be really hard to support a family in SF - or in any realistically-close suburb.

It's not unrealistic to look for that much or more just starting out if you have a good portfolio and demonstrable knowledge of the production pipeline. And you usually get a big raise whenever you change companies, which tends to happen a lot in games. I know senior concept artists who are making around 80k. Leads and art directors make more but they get to actually make art less and less as you go higher in rank.

[Ito Saith Webb]

Ito, you're way off the margin buddy Career: The general course or progression of one's working life or one's professional achievements: an officer with a distinguished career; a teacher in the midst of a long career. What you are talking about could be better defined as a hobby.


I never said anything about not making progress or it not being a professional about art being a career. I am talking about your attitude toward being an artist in making a living at it. The whole point is to live as an artist. Also if you look of the definition of what a professional is it more or less means that you are making a living off what you do. And no, what I am talking about is not a hobby because a hobby is nothing more than a deviation from the stresses of everyday life, something you just do for fun.

You are also reading out of contents because I also said that I agreed with just about everyone else here on the matter so I felt that I didn't need to repeat everything. To me it is a way a life and what it means to be an artist as a career. If you can make a living as an artist, even if it is a bare minimum living then that is still a career as long as it is something that you love doing.

[jeremyvessey]

I don't understand why people just don't answer the question. They talk about how the question was asked or make irrelevant comments. I don't really think anybody cares about one's opinion on how the question was asked, they just want an answer. & it doesn't just happen here, it happens everywhere. If you are having a debate with someone they will comment on how the debate is going, or what the debate is about rather than making a legitimate point. Anyways, don't.

To answer your question, the most lucrative careers in art are in Animation, whether it's 3D Animation in Movies, Games or some other industry, it pays very well. Graphic Designers do good as well. But the thing that everyone needs to realize is that your career doesn't have to be your only source of income. If you do graphic design you could work with a company and make roughly 50,000.00 per year and then have a website on the side where you could design web templates for people, provide people with free ones and make more intricate templates and sell them for maybe 20$ a piece. If you know how to market yourself you will do well in any artistic industry. The only way to make money off of any skill out there is to be able to market yourself. The company you work for knows this, if you have these key skills you could be the one with the executive office. Start thinking outside of the box. If you work for a company and make x amount of dollars per year. Put some of that money into something that will make you more money, like start a few websites on the side. Okay here's a master plan right here:

Get a job in Design / Animation / Anything Artistic: 45,000.00 Average Salary
Start a website that sells templates and design: 10,000 Average Salary per year
NOTE: put advertisements on your site and make an extra: 5000.00 on Average
Start freelancing in your community, get known for what you do.
Do things for yourself and promote it on sites like Youtube and others, make your work more known.
If you're in Animation, make a reel and put it on youtube, this could be a really good thing for you, you could establish yourself.

WAKE UP PEOPLE. The internet has 1.6 Billion people, and it runs 24/7, learn how to market yourself, your work and get connected. My friend makes 50,000 a year off of his blog that talks about fashion and girls lol. If he can make money off of that, you should be able to make money if you have any skill at all. I made 63,459.45 last year, and I started going to art school last year, i'm not out yet. If you have a skill harness it. and remember, your skill means nothing if you can't market yourself. Everything is business, learn how to do it before your stuck in a dead end job. AND remember, your career isn't your only source of income, it can be one of ten, it depends on how hard you want to work, but if you love doing it, its not much work, believe me.

[mickeymao]

There are artists out there making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. It is perfectly possible. However, it requires that you be totally awesome, and you are not in a position to evaluate your own awesomeness, now or ten years in the future. The market will tell you what you are worth -- and you should be getting the idea from this thread that, for a lot of very good artists, the market places them way below your 80k goal.

Many of us here love art-making in a way that negates the possibility of doing anything else, so we take our chances with the market. The hostility you're hearing amounts to: if you don't love art that much, then get the hell out.

With that said, as Jessi's link shows, the game industry does pay pretty well. You can get into the 70s pretty reliably -- if you're good. But what that graph isn't showing you is the overtime. Crunch at the end of a project can mean 80-hour weeks for months on end. That can happen in other fields too, but it's something to keep in mind.

[Baron Impossible]

I don't understand why people just don't answer the question. They talk about how the question was asked or make irrelevant comments.

Because it would better to help the OP answer another question, that being, "Is focusing on money a good thing when planning an art career?" and the answer is no. People could give the answer that concept artists average $X and animators average $Y but all this is irrelevant because the OP will become neither. To try and plan a career based on potential maximum earnings, with a pre-stated minimum, is doomed to failure. Someone said earlier that the best way to succeed is to become awesome, and that's about right. Marketing is useless if you've nothing to market.

[zerdron]

I love to work in america. Only a few jobs in art industry are available here in our province.

[ikken]

You might be overestimating current american market, recession isn't over yet, and that was a big boomer in many art-related industries.
(Game art I can speak of)

[nonameowns]

it's not the salary that measure rich, it's how you make out of it.

Example:
120k, a person lacks any control over money spending can struggle living.
50k, a person with good money control and importantly, budget. Can easily be at bay with sufficient amounts of money.

So if you have that and enjoys creating art as a profession, you're fine. xD

[jonmorris]

Art Director

[Xeon_OND]

lol, best theory EVER. I might have to adopt this.
LOL, when I saw the title of this thread, the 1st thing that I thought of was your signature and Aesir's quote. :D:yayca:

[term8or]

I'm assuming an art director, or the owner of an art company.

Personally, I think positions carrying a wage in art don't often pay as well as other fields. The really high rollers often are people who use art to make products, such as childrens books, films, toys, etc, invest in the product themselves, and make their living from royalties. You need to take risks to get the really good money.

An example is johnk, who invented ren & stimpy, which turned into a billion dollar industry. While Johnk made lots of money, it was the studio that invested the £6 million that got the vast majority of the profit.

Maybe its a sobering thought, but I think that as a general rule, if you are looking for stability and security in art, and a weekly wage, you are probably going to sacrifice a lot of your earnings potential.

[Kamber Parrk]

You guys are funny.

I fully intend to become rich as fuck through art. How you ask? By being awesome.

Awesome artists get rich. You guys just don't love art enough to get rich. Maybe if you cared about money more you might have more motivation to get awesome.


AWESOME TO THE MAX

Major Premise: "Awesome artists get rich."

Minor Premise: Thomas Kinkade is a rich artist.

Conclusion: Thomas Kinkade is awesome.

Q.E.D.

[term8or]

Major Premise: "Awesome artists get rich."

Minor Premise: Thomas Kinkade is a rich artist.

Conclusion: Thomas Kinkade is awesome.

Q.E.D.

That's the fallacy often known in english as 'Affirming the consequent'.

[Kamber Parrk]

That's the fallacy often known in english as 'Affirming the consequent'.

I'm shocked! Are you implying that it is possible to get rich in art without being awesome?

But, then, aesir did not phrase his assertion as either the categorical imperative of: ALL awesome artists are rich OR

ALL rich artists are awesome.

So, that leaves open the possiblility that one could be an awesome artist and NOT get rich.

[Two Listen]

Thomas Kinkade swapped out "awesome" for "religious".

[QueenGwenevere]

I don't think there's any guaranteed high-paying line of work in the visual arts. Everything I can think of could potentially yield a low income or a high income, depending on many, many factors (skill, location, experience, size and nature of hiring companies, who you know, how well known you are, etc., etc.)

The most I ever made full-time was $50k a year, and that was as an art director; the salary wasn't impressive because the company I worked at was a small company. As a freelancer, income varies wildly - anywhere between $24k per year and $80k per year. In this case it all depends on how much work I can scrape up, and what kind of work it is, and from whom.

Some of the careers I know something about first-hand...
Art Direction: people always assume this has a good salary, but it can vary quite a bit depending on the company you work for (size and nature of company, location, etc. all factor into this.)
Animation: can pay quite well, but not always. Depends on the company you work for, or if you're freelancing it can vary a lot depending how much work you get.
Graphic Design: again, can pay extremely well if you're a high-profile designer running your own company, but it can also pay anywhere from moderately well to practically minimum wage. And there's a gazillion designers to compete with.
Illustration: usually only freelance work in this field, not a lot of full-time work... again, high-profile illustrators can do quite well, but many will be barely getting by.

I've always thought the best bet is to pursue multiple disciplines. For instance, I get work doing illustration, animation, Flash programming, web design and coding, miscellaneous concept development and pre-production work, occasional writing, and combinations of all of those things. If I'm getting no work in one area at the moment, I can probably get work in another. And I'm always trying to add more skills. It never hurts.

Freelancers can also do quite well by developing and pushing their own projects - if you develop your own properties you can make a good income off licensing, royalties, etc.

(Also, a side note, if you're looking to buy a family-sized space in NYC in a decent neighborhood at anything less than, say, half a million per year, you can probably forget it. Everyone I know who has kids lives outside the city, even the programmers and engineers making a good living.)

[George Abraham]

Major Premise: "Awesome artists get rich."

Minor Premise: Thomas Kinkade is a rich artist.

Conclusion: Thomas Kinkade is awesome.

Q.E.D.

Sorry, Thomas was to busy to post a reply so I did one for him.


http://www.buysellart.com/images2005/01444-tk-bridgeoffaith-cs.jpg


Not hard to do what Thomas does, you need an eye for decoration, in the picture itself.
http://images.google.co.za/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=garden+style&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=

[bhanu]

Marketing is useless if you've nothing to market
nothing is such a relative word. :P
Actually its just about marketing.

Some quotes from David Apatoff's blog
http://illustrationart.blogspot.com/2009/12/art-to-kill-snakes-with.html

"When Jonathan Williams was asked to define art, he responded, "If you can kill a snake with it, it ain't art.

In each of the following three examples of conceptual art, an artist takes another artist's work and modifies it:

1. An erased drawing:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zMsg9U8UoyM/SyYfvW7BX5I/AAAAAAAAD7s/zwutqIraYKQ/s1600-h/rauschenberg_eraseddekooning.jpg
Artist Robert Rauschenberg famously took a drawing by DeKooning and erased it as his work of art.

2. A photograph of a photograph:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zMsg9U8UoyM/SyYbg86fghI/AAAAAAAAD7c/d5sUGQHjXxo/s1600-h/sherrie+levine+copy+of+Walker+Evans.jpg
Artist Sherrie Levine photographed the work of another photographer, Walker Evans, and called her art, "After Walker Evans." According to the Metropolitan Museum of Art's website, her copies of Evans' photos were "a landmark of postmodernism" as well as "a critique of the commodification of art, and an elegy on the death of modernism. Far from a high-concept cheap shot, Levine's works from this series tell the story of our perpetually dashed hopes to create meaning, the inability to recapture the past, and our own lost illusions."

Geting a good pay is about marketing your art, yourself to your clients(which can include buyers, partners, your bosses).

But frankly if you make money , please get into business, not art. The pay you get would almost never be enough for the hard work put into it.
But ysee, its hard work and the fun that are the real pay of being an artist, other things are happy bonuses.

[term8or]

I'm shocked! Are you implying that it is possible to get rich in art without being awesome?.

Yes, of course it is possible to get rich in art without being awesome at art. At the end of the day anyone who has read this thread knows that awesome artists are relatively cheap to hire. Especially if you go to china or russia. Walt Disney is one of the highest earning artists in history, and he did it by employing awesome artists.

[George Abraham]

Saying that awesomeness makes you rich is like playing the lotto without a ticket.

[Kamber Parrk]

Yes, of course it is possible to get rich in art without being awesome at art. At the end of the day anyone who has read this thread knows that awesome artists are relatively cheap to hire. Especially if you go to china or russia. Walt Disney is one of the highest earning artists in history, and he did it by employing awesome artists.

I think there's a difference between getting rich as a one-man-show and getting rich deploying the labor of others.

Disney got super rich in running an animation business. But, I don't think he was all that great of an artist on a personal level, say as contrasted to N. C. Wyeth, who, probably by existing standards, grew quite wealthy by actually producing "awesome" art all by himself.

Even today, I'd say you'd have to be pretty dang awesome to even get a mere job with Disney or produce illustrations for Coca-Cola like Wyeth.

Sure, Kinkade needs entities like Disney and the Franklin Mint as pipelines for his work-- but he's a one-man-show.

And if James Cameron ever commissioned the Franklin Mint via Kinkaide to produce The Official Art Of Avatar, numerous members of CA would go into cognitive dissonance shock, snap out of it, then give Kinkaide lots of money!:devil:

[Kamber Parrk]

Sorry, Thomas was to busy to post a reply so I did one for him.


http://www.buysellart.com/images2005/01444-tk-bridgeoffaith-cs.jpg


Not hard to do what Thomas does, you need an eye for decoration, in the picture itself.
http://images.google.co.za/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=garden+style&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=

Now, picture big blue cat people fleeing across that elegantly lit bridge while helicopter gunships fire auto-cannons at dragons in the sky above. . .

[Whirly]

Now, picture big blue cat people fleeing across that elegantly lit bridge while helicopter gunships fire auto-cannons at dragons in the sky above. . .


As much as I actually like Kinkade's stuff and wish I could do it I prefer your version! Wish he did stuff like that :D

On topic I wonder how this relates to 3D artists. I am a 3D artist. Depending where you are you can lean towards artistic or technical duties on quite a large and varying scale. I wonder how this affects wage differences. Also wonder how it compares to 2D guys.

[Baron Impossible]

People who say you don't have to be "awesome" to make good money are either being disingenuous or misreading the question.

The OP is asking about art careers on a site called conceptart.org, mentioning industrial design as an example, so it can be assumed he's not asking about how to become the next Damien Hirst. So, sticking to the original premise, yes, you do have to be awesome to make money. Some people might not like to hear that but it's true. As I said, you have to market and network too, but awesomeness is a prerequisite. I know of no top concept artists, illustrators or designers who are not exceptional in their field.

That doesn't mean that all awesome artists are well off but that wasn't what's being asked.

[bhanu]

hmmm, I just completely misunderstood the question, but I know some high paying art directors who are shit(with their ideation as well as art).
But yeah, being good is essential if you want to be where it matters, none of the good/better companies want to hire people through contacts and shit.

[Baron Impossible]

I know some high paying art directors who are shit(with their ideation as well as art)

That sort of thing reminds of when I used to work as a software developer. The only way to earn more money was to go into management. Trouble was, aside from most developers not wanting to go into management there was no reason to assume that a good developer would make a good manager. So, in this field, we ended up with a host of shit managers. Maybe it's the same type of thing that results in shitty art directors :)

[QueenGwenevere]

but I know some high paying art directors who are shit(with their ideation as well as art).

The thing with art directors and producers is that they get their jobs by varying routes. Not all of them are artists or even creative people, even though they're supposed to be directing artists and other creatives. And like the Baron said, some might have started out as good artists but ended up as bad art directors just because they're bad at management.

Dunno. I've met some good art directors and producers who couldn't actually draw themselves but could direct other people, and I've also met some pretty lousy ones where I can't help wondering how they got the job... but it's like everything else. People can sometimes end up in jobs like that just by knowing the right people, being in the right place at the right time, and being generally personable.

[dpaint]

There is no such thing as a high paying art job. Art jobs by their very nature reward the skill of the artist for the market he chooses to work in.
Most people who design logos get 100 bucks for one if they are lucky. Saul Bass gets 100,000. Same with concept art and animation and background art.
The skill of the artist determines their ability to get higher pay. That skill includes being able to market yourself, Rob Liefeld aside, most artist who get high pay have been able to return a greater profit for their projects because of their skill. That is how they continue to get high paying gigs. Everybody will get a shot at a high paying gig at least once in their career, most aren't up to the pressure and can't deliver so they never get another shot.

[shiroboi]

I can understand wanting to have a nice life and also being an artist. I don't think there's anything wrong with that but usually the term "Rich Professional Artist" isn't something that's uttered much. That's why I do IT for a living and then go home and draw whatever the heck I want. I live a comfortable life style. Also, there's always the "Marry the rich person" thing. That works too.

I think there's too much emphasis on, if you like something, you must try to make a living at it. Who said that? Most pro artists lack the creative freedom they desire. Being a pro artist isn't for everybody. Course industrial design isn't necessarily your typical fine art either.

[QueenGwenevere]

I think there's too much emphasis on, if you like something, you must try to make a living at it. Who said that? Most pro artists lack the creative freedom they desire. Being a pro artist isn't for everybody.

On the other hand, what's wrong with wanting to make a living doing work you can at least partially enjoy? Sure, if you're doing pro work, there can be boring bits, but there's many fun bits, too. If I was forced to work eight hours a day as a receptionist or something, I think I'd have to slit my wrists. I would NOT be a happy camper. (Especially since working full-time at something non-art-related would leave me too tired to do as much art as I'd like...)

That said, no, being a pro artist ain't for everyone. Unless you want to try the extremely chancy route of becoming a fine artist, you have to actually enjoy working with other people, collaborating on projects and ideas, and so forth. Which some people might feel inhibits "creative freedom", but to the right person it's just a different kind of creative freedom. And it CAN be lots of fun.

[Zazerzs]

seems your worth more when you are dead... so Art Corpse

[George Abraham]

When you are doing work for Madonna or something.

[shiroboi]

On the other hand, what's wrong with wanting to make a living doing work you can at least partially enjoy? Sure, if you're doing pro work, there can be boring bits, but there's many fun bits, too. If I was forced to work eight hours a day as a receptionist or something, I think I'd have to slit my wrists. I would NOT be a happy camper. (Especially since working full-time at something non-art-related would leave me too tired to do as much art as I'd like...)

That said, no, being a pro artist ain't for everyone. Unless you want to try the extremely chancy route of becoming a fine artist, you have to actually enjoy working with other people, collaborating on projects and ideas, and so forth. Which some people might feel inhibits "creative freedom", but to the right person it's just a different kind of creative freedom. And it CAN be lots of fun.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a professional artist. If you're in that upper eschelon who gets paid to do what you want to do, then kudos to you. If you're not in that upper eschelon, its not a bad option to have an alternative career to fall back on. I enjoy fixing computers, tweaking them and administering networks. For me, it lets me do my menial work during the day and I can save that creative energy for when I come home at night. Also, I get to make a very nice salary that I don't think I would be making as an artist or graphic designer. My income potential is higher and I have no creative restrictions on my art.

[QueenGwenevere]

its not a bad option to have an alternative career to fall back on. I enjoy fixing computers, tweaking them and administering networks.

Heh, if you've GOT an alternate career you actually enjoy, more power to ya, you have a handy security net. ;) I'm afraid I've dedicated my life to art-related stuff, ain't much good at nothin' else, so I've got to find art-related find work if I don't want go crazy... (But at least I know a nice broad range of art-related stuff, so that helps.)

[Black Spot]

If you're not in that upper eschelon, its not a bad option to have an alternative career to fall back on. I enjoy fixing computers, tweaking them and administering networks. For me, it lets me do my menial work during the day and I can save that creative energy for when I come home at night.

There are numerous times when I enjoy working in accountancy. One job I'm doing at the moment (among 6 others) is like assembling a 10,000 piece jigsaw that is mainly sky with a few hundred pieces missing. Trouble is that it does take creativity to see the whole picture and is draining, but I'm still chipping away with my art as that's what feeds my soul.

[Sascha Thau]

You guys are funny.

I fully intend to become rich as fuck through art. How you ask? By being awesome.

Awesome artists get rich. You guys just don't love art enough to get rich. Maybe if you cared about money more you might have more motivation to get awesome.

almost, not quite

If you have a skill harness it. and remember, your skill means nothing if you can't market yourself.

this, 100% true

...at least in my opinion. We are not only artists, we are businessmen, too. But there are oh so many artists which are ngelcting the business side of things. It would be better if more artists would be creative with their buisness, too and not only with their art.

If you don't have a network, being awesome opens you doors. If you don't know how to market yourself, you will be stuck in those doors 30 years later. It's a generalization, but I had a pretty shocking moment when I listened to a Ninja Mountain Podcast where they had all the old artists from D&D and one of them basically said: "Sure, I don't have to show around my portfolio, people come to me... but it's the same as 30 years ago: Others are telling me what I have to paint."

I don't want this. I will try and do this:

Freelancers can also do quite well by developing and pushing their own projects - if you develop your own properties you can make a good income off licensing, royalties, etc.

[Kraus]

The highest paying art job is being James Cameron, i'm sure that guy can draw as well as direct. Does his creative mind blows mine, no, but nevertheless through being a dinosaur and undertaking projects he now has a rep to be payed above 100k.

[bhanu]

That sort of thing reminds of when I used to work as a software developer. The only way to earn more money was to go into management. Trouble was, aside from most developers not wanting to go into management there was no reason to assume that a good developer would make a good manager. So, in this field, we ended up with a host of shit managers. Maybe it's the same type of thing that results in shitty art directors
yeah its the same shit everywhere, it seems your people(including people management) skills help you more than anything.
I have had briefs where ADs told me to "draw this, draw that and oh be creative".

[aeilea]

The thing that has always bothered me is how we do not place more value on creative work. There are just so many other "practical jobs" that offer more money because they are not considered luxuries--they are considered essential to human survival. For example, the top ten lists of highest paid jobs are all in the medical fields, then business and science. It makes me think that maybe it is a part of our human evolution as a species to realize the importance of how art enriches life and inspires science and social changes that will save us from ourselves.

[thespirals]

$47,000 a year is poor? if i made that much i'de feel like i was rich! it's really all about knowing how to live comfortably off of a low income. i make very little money, but in my eyes, i think i live pretty damn well. i don't plan to always live off of this little of money, but for right now i feel good. i live off of something like $12,000 a year.....AND....i live in California. I live in the bay area...in San Francisco, even. I drive a car... I eat healthy... The room I rent is small and cheap, but I also share a house, with a garage where I can work, in a nice neighborhood. It took me months to find this place...I was picky and patient. I get into tons of events for free....people like to give me things because of art.....I've been flown to Hawaii....I'm about to travel overseas.......maybe I'm just lucky. Granted, I don't have a family to take care of yet. But by the time that happens, I'm sure I'll be making more money, because every year more opportunities come to me and my skills improve.....It's about what you value.....I value my time. I value my community. ...I freed up my schedule to be able to snag whatever opportunities arise, and to be able to be out meeting people and making connections. Shit, I still don't know how I'm doing it, but I am.....
Things open up to you in ways you never would have thought possible if you let the possibility occur. I have friends who travel the world all year long who barely make any money at all. It's possible. I do a lot of work trade too....my travelling friends do volunteer work...what you give usually comes back to you in large quantities....you don't always need money to be this middle man towards getting the things you want.
I'm not saying this is the only way to be.....I'm just saying.....you can live a rich life without a lot of money.

[Trixtar]

Ooooh yes richness!!!! I could buy ALL the art materials I wanted like the Golden Open Acrylics, all the art books people have recommended me, some clay to make better shapes to practice on, proper canvasses, proper watercolor brushes, a trip to more "nature-ish" areas even if only a bus trip away to practice the environment painting... I'd be the happiest person on earth! *tear of joy*

So how do one define "luxury"?
-And what is wrong to use art as a way of achieving what you perceive as "luxury", especially when it comes to money?

I have no problem admitting that effing cool if I could get rich painting, nor do I have a problem admitting that right now in this moment I have a better chance at getting a job doing websites and that's where most time is spent: Practicing website coding, which I also utterly suck at! :p

Either way, being rich would be nice, having a great life spending lots of time doing what I like (regardless of whatever poor result) is priceless to me!
So rather be a bit poor having fun than being rich spending 10 hours a day with no fun :)

[Conniekat8]

Ooooh yes richness!!!!

Sometimes the trick to making money is not what you know, but who you know ;)
...provided you have some sort of a marketable skill...

[Trixtar]

Sometimes the trick to making money is not what you know, but who you know
...provided you have some sort of a marketable skill...

...or just your marketing skill not knowing anyone in particular, and a good agent who knows people!

I have met an artist who sells enough to live off of it. She spends at least one full day marketing herself.
Her art is..... *sigh*.... Let's just be nice and say that I don't understand most of it :p

[pavypavy]

Up to 250k but that's when your senior-drictor-artist person no seriously though, but also depends on how successful a company is.

[FourLeafClover]

christ i'm surprised how people are getting on him for the money. duh he isn't doing it just for the money but you have to be practical about life you know? there are hospital bills and a family to take care of among other stuff. if you don't have enough to fund those and nurse a healthy artist lifestyle then eventually you get depressed and don't feel like drawing. any smart person would consider this question this guy asks here. this question is important to people who want to make the most out of their passion for art because they can afford to indulge in art as they like. getting inspiration, from travelling and things like that, all takes money. you only have 1 life so why not make the most of it? it factors for your art experience. anyone who truly loves art would take that into account.

[_Quasar_]

Sorry for not reading the entire topic but, I found interesting points of view and... I`d say, MAN, I`d love to have a 47k/y salary.
You guys don`t know how much a concept artist make a year in Brazil, right? I could say in average of 15-20k/y.
But I understand the concern of making money. Well, why can`t we make money out of what we love to do? I see no problem in getting rich by doing what you love and specialy NOT HARMING OTHER PEOPLE, basicaly.

[LAG]

Sometimes the trick to making money is not what you know, but who you know ;)
...provided you have some sort of a marketable skill...

100% true. Or you can slog it out for 10 years like most of us working your way up the studio ladder :)

Or move to the midwest and work from home like me. Then 47k will feel like 80k...