i need some advice/tips for painting

[kyurai]

hello all,

a few weeks ago, i bought some acrilyc paints (black and white) and started to paint some of the portraits i drew. I just took black and white because i wanted to see if i can place the values correctly(or at least acceptable) before starting with colors. I have much to learn in color theory.


Basicaly, my questions are these:

1. I draw the portraits in pencil first, place the shadows and the light until i think it looks pretty ok. At this point i usualy mix 3,4 values of grey to match the pencil values i used. My problem is this : after i start filling the drawing in paint, i cover up the construction lines and other lines that help me. From that point on, i m a little lost because i loose the pencils underneath and i m not sure that i m following the drawing correctly.
Am i doing something wrong here ? should i apply the paint transparently ?
Is there any technique that beginners use to get used to painting ?

2. Is there a specific value range of greys that beginners use in art school ?
I followed until now loomis's 5 value range, because i found it easier to define the light and shadow.

i should mention that i m not in art school and drawing and painting is just a hobby, that s why i need some advice from more experienced people .

thanks for any tips offered :)

[Shantih]

Scan some in!

Hitting the lighest and darkest sections as early on in the painting as possible can help you remember what's where. Also, don't work too much into the drawing. I can't tell before seeing but it sounds like you're going too far into the drawing when you're going to be painting on top of it - just the general outline and some indications of the form are all you need. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be a good drawing...just a simple one.

Keep refering back to whatever you're painting to keep track of what you're trying to do and where everything goes.

When you say 'filling in the drawing with paint', try to remember that you aren't colouring in with the paint, you're trying to show the form of whatever you're painting. I haven't explained this very well, but I feel if you think of it as putting the paint on to colour the drawing, rather than using it to define what you see, it's going to come out flatter.

I never followed any value range or actually got taught to paint, so I can't really help you there. My painting experience has been pretty much trial and error, error more than anything.

[ask maurice]

I agree with Shantih. Your drawing should be only a means to outline dimensions. From there you are doing nothing more than drawing with a brush. The difference is you can utilize the brush in so many other ways.

If you were satisfied with your results with pencil you can do the same with paint. Assuming this work is on canvas, start out with a stiff hog hair brush until you get to the point that you need fine detail. Then move to the softer White Nylon (http://www.kqzyfj.com/r365wktqks7B8HC9C8798CHDB8F?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.d ickblick.com%2Fzz050%2F80b%2F%3Fwmcp%3Dcj%26wmcid% 3Dfeeds%26wmckw%3D05082-1002-7245&cjsku=05082-1002) or Golden Taklon (http://www.dpbolvw.net/7s97kjspjr6A7GB8B7687BGCA7E?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.d ickblick.com%2Fzz060%2F07a%2F%3Fwmcp%3Dcj%26wmcid% 3Dfeeds%26wmckw%3D06006-1004-7650&cjsku=06006-1004) Brushes for the delicate stuff.

If you are insecure about placement of color over your drawing, the benefit of acrylic is you can thin out your paint and/or use transparent medium so you can paint over it gradually until you are satisfied (gazing). Since it is fast drying you can paint a countless amount of layers in a day. Use the brush to work the color around and blend it (scumbling). If you are not satisfied with a dried area don't fret. It can be removed with denatured alcohol and a rag.

Depending on your subject choice, a good tool for beginners for color mixing/matching is The Carder Method (http://www.thecardermethod.com/) tool. Hope this was helpful. You can find more or ask from the site below.



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[Elwell]

I wouldn't recommend hog bristle brushes for acrylic, as they go limp in water. Stick with synthetics.
The Carder Method is a very specific system for working in oils, and isn't suited to acrylics at all.

[kyurai]

thanks guys

right now, all i have are a few very bad brushes i found arround the house. i think they re very old, perhaps something from my 6th grade art classes or something.

i think it s time for new ones anyway :)

i think i overdid it with the drawing under the painting. today i redid the drawing without the details and painted it again and it looked much better. i started filling the value in paint directly instead of trying to follow the pencils underneath :) and i think it works out better like this

[ask maurice]

Gees! Mr. Elwell you woke up from your nap, today.


The reason I recommended the hog hair brush for acrylic (which I've never experienced going limp) was to give this individual the opportunity to understand how to sketch with paint. Be certain use a BRIGHT shaped hog hair. Synthetic brushes which are designed to flow better are in fact much too soft for this.


Yes, the Carder Method TOOL is designed for oil paints. However, the color theory works essentially the same for color matching except that acrylic paints don't dry the same tone as they are wet. The darks dry lighter and the lights dry darker.

I'm sorry but there are some other people on this forum who know what they are talking about.



For those who are unaware I am an ancient Multi-media Fine Artist and I have painted since I was a child because that's what I love to do.

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[Zazerzs]

Give this a read

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=157251

Its an 80 page book on pallet and color control. Although it too is based on oil paints the color theory, pallet layout and key color info is definatly worth your time. :)

[riceface]

why waste ur money on paint? just get photoshop sheesh

[Zazerzs]

why waste ur money on paint? just get photoshop sheesh

not helpful. as this is not a question of traditonal mediums over digital.

but while you are wondering about costs add up a cpu, wacom tab, photoshop ect. you're looking at a start up fee of well over a grand...

[ask maurice]

ricefacewhy waste ur money on paint? just get photoshop sheesh

Sure, in with the new and out with the old as we all loose grasp of reality in cyberspace.

Hey I own and use Photoshop, Corel Photo Paint and quite a few more but there's nothing more rewarding than my paintings. You computer dudes keep on making games, animations, etc. It just drives up the value of that a painting done by hand.

[riceface]

riceface

Sure, in with the new and out with the old as we all loose grasp of reality in cyberspace.

Hey I own and use Photoshop, Corel Photo Paint and quite a few more but there's nothing more rewarding than my paintings. You computer dudes keep on making games, animations, etc. It just drives up the value of that a painting done by hand.

theres no advantage so theres no point to me.. i drew with pencils all my life until i learned to do it in photoshop.. and never looked back and find it even more rewarding

[kyurai]

@riceface : i don t want to get photoshop or a tablet yet. because i m still a beginner and i don t intend to do any work profesionally in the future, i personally think that it will be a bad investment.

right now i m happy with my pencils and charcoals (i kinda like getting my hands dirty) :) and after looking at a computer screen for 8h a day, the last thing i want is to go home and turn on the computer again :))

[kyurai]

@Zazerzs : bookmarked !!! thanks a lot for that :)

[J Wilson]

I think others have already touched on this, but you shouldn't be in fear of losing your original pencil drawing too much. It's a good guideline to get started, and certainly helps to plan things out, but you have to avoid the urge to use it as a paint by number type situation. Instead, once you get started you can mostly forget it was ever there because the painting process requires as much observation and critical thinking as the drawing did. In other words, you may have lost the pencil drawing under the paint, but you haven't lost the more important tool which is your eyes.

A quick thought about the recommended hog bristle brushes for acrylic. If you want to get nice brushes and take care of them, I'd recommend synthetic brushes for acrylics over bristle. Acrylic paint will make natural hair dry and brittle over time, and it easily latches on to natural hairs imperfections and cells, making it tougher to clean well, and it will lose it's shape quickly. Synthetics are generally much better, and if you get a good quality brush you can get them in stiff, or soft, or whatever qualities you prefer. If you are using cheap brushes it probably matters less because you just throw them out and replace them anyways, but I found painting with cheap brushes to often be frustrating. I'd usually recommend to a beginner to cut expenses other places, but not on brushes. Applying paint with a crummy misshapen brush is worse than using cheap canvas paper or student paint.

[CCThrom]

and after looking at a computer screen for 8h a day, the last thing i want is to go home and turn on the computer again

I am SO with you there!

[ask maurice]

theres no advantage so theres no point to me.. i drew with pencils all my life until i learned to do it in photoshop.. and never looked back and find it even more rewarding

That's a personal preference that you are entitled to.

[ask maurice]

I think others have already touched on this, but you shouldn't be in fear of losing your original pencil drawing too much. It's a good guideline to get started, and certainly helps to plan things out, but you have to avoid the urge to use it as a paint by number type situation. Instead, once you get started you can mostly forget it was ever there because the painting process requires as much observation and critical thinking as the drawing did. In other words, you may have lost the pencil drawing under the paint, but you haven't lost the more important tool which is your eyes.

A quick thought about the recommended hog bristle brushes for acrylic. If you want to get nice brushes and take care of them, I'd recommend synthetic brushes for acrylics over bristle. Acrylic paint will make natural hair dry and brittle over time, and it easily latches on to natural hairs imperfections and cells, making it tougher to clean well, and it will lose it's shape quickly. Synthetics are generally much better, and if you get a good quality brush you can get them in stiff, or soft, or whatever qualities you prefer. If you are using cheap brushes it probably matters less because you just throw them out and replace them anyways, but I found painting with cheap brushes to often be frustrating. I'd usually recommend to a beginner to cut expenses other places, but not on brushes. Applying paint with a crummy misshapen brush is worse than using cheap canvas paper or student paint.

What I was speaking of here Mr. Wilson was, to utilize the stiffness of the hog hair only for the initial lay out, not finishing the painting. And you are on the money about Nylon or Taklon for Acrylic and investing in a good set of brushes. It makes a big difference.

[Kagemusha22]

why waste ur money on paint? just get photoshop sheesh

Thank you Michelangelo.

[Kagemusha22]

I have a query, for me Acrylic paints are a complete pain. I can't get them to do anything, I try to lay down layers and I just end up with a blotchy and uneven looking surface, and because of the quick drying time being economical with the paints whilst mixing is not an option. (Which means I end up with some weird colour mixes) It's weird as I have no problem at all with Oils, which alot of artists I've talked to say is a much harder medium. So where the hell am I going wrong, is it that I'm simply not spending enough time on the painting?

[Flake]

I'm in much the same boat. I try to revisit acrylics now and again but then the wet > dry colour shift fills me with murderous rage and I inevitably go back to oils.
I found thinking of them as permanent watercolour washes and working very layered had me throwing things less. Drybrushing was another less painful option.

I think my brain wants them to behave like oil, and they just don't.

I can appreciate how most people feel oil is harder but for me the benefits outweigh the hassle.

You might want to have a look at Chris Bennetts work and posts, he seems to have acrylics pretty much doing whatever he wants..

[Noah Bradley]

Yeah, as Flake said treat them like watercolors. Watercolor that, if you need to, you can go opaque with.

If I ever doubt the possibilities of acrylics I look to John Berkey. I didn't believe it when I found out his stuff is in acrylics.

[ask maurice]

I have a query, for me Acrylic paints are a complete pain. I can't get them to do anything, I try to lay down layers and I just end up with a blotchy and uneven looking surface, and because of the quick drying time being economical with the paints whilst mixing is not an option. (Which means I end up with some weird colour mixes) It's weird as I have no problem at all with Oils, which alot of artists I've talked to say is a much harder medium. So where the hell am I going wrong, is it that I'm simply not spending enough time on the painting?

Unless your chosen painting style is 'alla prima' and/or with heavy impasto techniques, I have found that the most effective method to use acrylics, because of the accelerated dry time, is similar to painting with egg tempera (in multiple thin transparent layers).

It is sometimes difficult to switch from oil to acrylic because an acrylic painting is engineered in the reverse order (light to dark versus dark to light). Acrylic colors are also difficult to grind because unlike oils they never dry the same as they are wet.



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[J Wilson]

I don't use acrylic often, but when I do I work with them more like how I use gouache, which is generally flat opaque colors without a ton of blending.

[kyurai]

thanks for all the good advice guys ! :)

[CCThrom]

Hmm.. after reading this, I might give acrylics another look-see. I've always had the same problem with them... trying to get them to behave like oils. I do a lot of my mixing and blending on the canvas, so you can imagine how frustrated I get with thick acrylic. I do love to paint with watercolor and casein though... so one of these days I'll give the acrylics another go... thin layers with lots of water. I've seen some kickass illustrations that use this technique.