Pride Parade Hate Mail

[JessiBean]

We found this stuffed in our mailbox today, most likely becase the Pride Parade is this weekend and part of it runs down our street (we live in the "gay district" here in Houston). The letter starts out unassuming and just gets worse and worse, not to mention the horrific grammar, and is not the hard work of our official neighborhood watch. I'm bothered by the substance of the letter and still don't quite know what to do, if anything, apart from contacting GLAAD in regards to the defamation (esp the bit about "KEEP YOUR CHILDREN SAFE")
:wtf:

This isn't a common thing, is it?

706860

[hippl5]

Didn't read the post yet: But, I just saw the hair on the scanned copy, thought it was my sister's hair on my screen, and tried to wipe it off.

Edit: All the broken English confuses me.

[Spirit]

Didn't read the post yet: But, I just saw the hair on the scanned copy, thought it was my sister's hair on my screen, and tried to wipe it off.

haha, I did the exact same!
And that is really hard to read, due to the bad grammer and spelling, as you pointed out. It sounds to me as if the person who has written the letter is extremely paranoid... some of its contents could be taken to be offensive as well.
I really don't know what to make of that O_O

[Bill]

I like the part about Fox news ending the parade if laws are broken. I'm guessing whoever wrote this makes their living by stealing the neighbors disability checks.

[alesoun]

It's always interesting when somebody tries to influence your opinion and can't be assed to put in punctuation, eh?

Like, they won't make allowances for anybody else or think about their rights, but they have the right to FREE SPEECH and NO BEER because of something that might have happened in the passed......

Burger! Anybody that will play Mine games ought to have their gunpowder taken away!

De basssstiddds!

[Flake]

FREE SPEECH is great but NO BEER can get tae..

Idiots.

[Jason Rainville]

I don't even know what that said. It's like it was playing mine games on me...

[Steph Laberis]

That's pretty disgusting. I wonder if there's a way to trace its source - absolutely contact GLAAD if they haven't been contacted already or better yet, call news stations before the eloquent author of the letter does and beat them to a story.

Didn't know Pride was this weekend incidentally, hopefully i can squirrel away a little time to get into the city and check it out. Stuff like that letter wouldn't fly here in Berkeley, but then again after Prop 8 very little would surprise me :sadcheerleader:

...and what the hell are the Rights of a FREE Speech Discriminate? :frustrated:

[alesoun]

I guess I should say before I go to bed that this looks like it was written by one person and not by some neighbourhood committee.

I know plenty of people who have dyslexia or some other disorder, but none of them that I know who admit to having the problem, would make up a flier like that and have it printed without having it proofread by someone else.

Look for the guy who has no friends....

[Prometheus|ANJ]

I guess you could put up a counter letter, or a parody of the original.

[Troubadour]

Freedom of speech....

unless youre a homosexual. :|

i also laughed pretty hard at the crack dealer part, this is pretty ridiculous :\

[Straight Edge Ryan]

Sounds to me like someone that doesn't like gays and is looking for any reason to call the cops on them. I guarantee you it was probably written by the old guy in town that feels that it's his obligation to keep the neighborhood "safe". Probably the same guy that calls in noise violations on any building holding more than 4 teenagers, and yells at skateboarders on sight

[Zaxser]

Another thread about the gay thing?

Yes, it's okay to be gay. Yes, a lot of homophobia is rooted in bat shit insanity. (http://www.godhatesfags.com/) You are all hereby awarded your diploma in stating the obvious.

This thread is now about posting cool pictures from GBLT parades:

[Troubadour]

i wish there was an opposite button to thanking a post.

[Max Challie]

i wish there was an opposite button to thanking a post.

The groan button was removed permanently a long time ago. I'm sure most of us would rather not talk about it.. but nevermind :/

[Edward Cherniga]

My head hurts... and the reason is in a LAW Book somewhere? My mine has been abused...:[

[Kamikazebob]

Going along the lines of Prom, you could correct all the grammatical errors in it and send it back.

[Wooly ESS]

Anybody whose spelling and grammar is that bad should have their Rights of
a FREE Speech Discriminate repealed.

[waronmars]

That's pretty bad, I mean, it's all dicks in holes, right? Or other things in holes, but whatever floats your boat...

I bet that gay pride parade would be awesome to draw.

[TASmith]

I'm going to offend someone I know, but what do you expect living in Texas, or America for that matter?

Yeah, yeah, the whole world's got crazies... I have a feeling, though, that if there were a gay pride parade here in Bratislava, and someone wanted to protest it, it would be some elderly man, active in the Catholic church, who would at least know how to write well, and would use the popular Catholic arguments, instead of sensationalist, absurd drivel like "save the children!!!"

[Baron Impossible]

I was playing a mine game yesterday - mine sweeper. It wasn't very exciting but I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. And what's that bit about gays blocking your driveway without permission? Sex should always be consensual (or was I wrong to treat that as a euphemism?)

[waronmars]

Gay sex in your driveway is a good way to block it at least!

[Aly Fell]

Pride in Manchester UK always has a particular church that prays for rain during the August bank holiday weekend. So far the past few Prides have been very sunny. Guess god isn't listening, or maybe he's just more sensible than his fans.

[Slash]

I wish there was a straight pride day so i could dress up in gaudy costumes and prance about! ^^

LOL @ the thinly veiled hate in the original post. Speaking about THE LAW in capitol letters when they are really saying "we dun want them godless faggets and dykes in this here god-fearin' town!".

[CCThrom]

Well I would hate to think that the Pride marchers were out to discriminate against my right to FREE SPEECH. But I know that's really what they're up to isn't it? ISN'T IT??!!

Meh - sounds like the work of a crackpot... and a barely literate one at that. Definitely forward this to GLAAD and the march organizers, they should know about it if they don't already.

[Ghostbrush]

looks like the letter was written by some kid, with pretty shallow views on homosexuality.

JessiBean while the content of that letter is rather shocking, it does not appear to be the work of anything organized, I would personally just disregard it as bullshit from some narrow minded person.

pride marches are good fun to watch! the ones in manchester are huge! its like an all day street party :D

[Gavage]

Stuff like this isn't too common, it's more just that the people who take a disapproving stance on homosexuality have a bit of a track record of acting... well, like this. It does tend to gain more attention than someone with a more educated, thoughtful view. Hysterical opinion usually does.

My city is having it's first pride event next month. Curious to see how it will turn out. The part I live in is pretty narrow-minded.

[Hookswords]

I love mine games!

[darkwolf29a]

Personally, I dislike stuff like this.

I'm not against homosexuals having certain rights, etc. But, it really gets me going when people start this type of junk. Why? Because....I can't agree with either side, really.

There are several places that I have lived that had a pride parade, and it was all cool, until the haters showed up....Then all hell would break lose.

Look, I'm not a fan of these parades, but I don't see anything wrong with them. I won't go, and as long as they don't inhibit my ability to get the places I have to go...it's all good...let them party. But, I do think we should start a straight pride parade. I mean....what's good for the goose is good for the gander!!

Of course, I won't be appearing in anything pink!!! LOL

[GhostValkyrie]

But, I do think we should start a straight pride parade. I mean....what's good for the goose is good for the gander!!


You can't do that. It would be considered a hate crime in the US. Only certain groups have rights nowadays.

Besides these type of functions tend to create even more deviations of America's increasingly multicultural society. This is an exercising of the right to peaceably assemble, but it always gets me how people want to create a gentler us/them mentality and culture and simultaneously expect nothing but complete compliance or agreement from the other cultures. This goes for all 'clubs', societies, what have you..

But, more power to those of you interacting in such functions. I do think you should be wasting less time parading around like pixies, and more time actually organizing petitions, protesting, filing for legal redress, etc.

Case in particular - Gay marriage. Marriage is a religious function/function of belief. Therefore if a religious institution chooses to wed same-sex couples, it can't be denied that practice by the government as it is a factor of inalienable rights you are born with. Even is marriage is to be a state factor or turns back to roots outside the state; I don't see any reason two adults capable of taking care of themselves should be denied marriage to one another.

However, your major road block in that is state involvement in marriage. Not to mention everybody is under the impression they're given rights by the government, majority rule/vote or the constitution. People shouldn't beg and plea for rights, they should assert them.

[JessiBean]

I'm going to offend someone I know, but what do you expect living in Texas, or America for that matter?

I mean this in the calmest, most rational sense, it's not about picking on you. But aren't those kinds of generalizations and stereotypes the problem? Isn't that the problem with the letter in the first place? A few fringe extremists can't be what you base your understanding of an entire group on (apply this to your view of Texas/America, apply this to Western views on the Mid-East and vice versa, etc.) I live in an open, friendly neighborhood that also happens to be rife with arts and culture and a proud gay community, and yes, it happens to be in Texas. I am a Texan, I am not a mindless, extremist moron, I am not sure I even know any people like that. Just like I have yet to meet a homosexual I felt was predatory or dangerous, neither should predatory behavior and sexual orientation be assumed to be in any way connected. Kind of like how someone shouldn't assume that being an idiot and a Texan are mutually exclusive. And by lumping people into dismissible groups you don't respect, aren't we allowing the hate to perpetuate and fueling the extremist fires?

[Katfayheirti]

Of course, I won't be appearing in anything pink!!! LOL


Pink is a perfectly manly colour :overhere:

[Gavage]

But, I do think we should start a straight pride parade. I mean....what's good for the goose is good for the gander!!



I think gay pride exists more to do with how homosexuality has been perceived and treated in the past as opposed to just an excuse for people to act all "woo, I'm gay!" - not so much pride for the sake of it, just pride as opposed to being ashamed. It has been illegal, a supposed reason for bullying and hate crimes and so on (and still is, sadly) whereas heterosexuality has always been unquestioned and 'safe'. There hasn't really been anywhere near the same level of trials or suffering there to warrant a self-congratulatory parade.

I do see where you're coming from though. I'd personally like to see it just become a celebration of sexuality in general, something for people who are comfortable not only with their own orientation but everyone else's too. It's a little too black and white at the moment.

[Peter Coene]

The letter itself doesn't bother me as I see it as free speech. However, it is illegal to put things in someone's mailbox unless you are a postal worker, as it is considered tampering with their mail.

[darkwolf29a]

Yes, Missile, I agree. Ultimately, I think it's all about being comfortable in your own skin, so to speak. And, I would welcome that kind of celebration. I understand why they have these sort of thing. Heck, all groups seem to have something. And, unfortunately, it always angers someone.

My take on the whole thing is tolerance, more than anything else. I'm not going to change, nor do I want to for that matter, any one who believes anything that I don't believe in or anything I'm not, if that makes any sense. I guess it's like this for me: I have my own set of beliefs, thoughts, orientations, etc. I don't expect anyone else to follow, exactly, in my footsteps. Heck, my footsteps are what got me where I am today, and made me who I am. So, anyone following in my footsteps would end like me...scary, huh? LOL But, I do expect a certain level of tolerance. We're all human beings after all. And if I don't follow your beliefs or what ever, I would respect you no less...so why would anyone respect me less? I just hate it when people throw anything up in other people's face like this. To me, this is clearly a hate thing, which I don't follow.

Here in Green Bay, we don't have (to my knowledge) a large homosexual population. But, we do have a large religious population. And some of the things they do around here in the name of religion amazes me. So, in some ways I understand where homosexuals are coming, even if I can't walk in their shoes. I'm not main stream religion follower, so often I am made to feel inferior by some people, when all I am looking for, and I think all that homosexuals are looking for, is a tiny bit of tolerance and acceptance.

Hell, the world could use a lot more tolerance of others, period.

I'll use the classic line here to end this post...

"Can't we just all get along?"

[Qitsune]

I wish there was a straight pride day so i could dress up in gaudy costumes and prance about! ^^

The beauty of gay pride parades (at least where I'm from) is anyone can join, even the straight people. So you can dress gaudy and join the fun.

You can't do that. It would be considered a hate crime in the US. Only certain groups have rights nowadays.
An mentioned previously, gay pride is all about accepting all orientations not about excluding heteros. You can assume than all other parades are straight by default.

Case in particular - Gay marriage. Marriage is a religious function/function of belief. Therefore if a religious institution chooses to wed same-sex couples, it can't be denied that practice by the government as it is a factor of inalienable rights you are born with. Even is marriage is to be a state factor or turns back to roots outside the state; I don't see any reason two adults capable of taking care of themselves should be denied marriage to one another.

However, your major road block in that is state involvement in marriage. Not to mention everybody is under the impression they're given rights by the government, majority rule/vote or the constitution. People shouldn't beg and plea for rights, they should assert them.
It's easy to say that you are married and to wear a ring, but what about insurance benefits and taxes? If marriage has nothing to do with the state, how come hetero couples have some LEGAL rights that gay couples don't?

And by lumping people into dismissible groups you don't respect, aren't we allowing the hate to perpetuate and fueling the extremist fires? I'm not making light of what you are saying because it's true. But didn't your coworkers shoot at you with a BB gun? Never heard of that outside of Texas.


I do see where you're coming from though. I'd personally like to see it just become a celebration of sexuality in general, something for people who are comfortable not only with their own orientation but everyone else's too. It's a little too black and white at the moment.

Quoted for truth. And gay pride parades will have a reason to be as long as this goes on:
The sodomy laws are unconstitutional and unenforceable. However, some states still attempt to enforce their laws. Virginia, Oklahoma, and North Carolina. The U.S. Military enforces its sodomy regulation without regard to Lawrence.



Source: http://www.sodomylaws.org/

[JessiBean]

I'm not making light of what you are saying because it's true. But didn't your coworkers shoot at you with a BB gun? Never heard of that outside of Texas.

Hahaha... true. But that may have alot to do with strange characters who work in the game industry, too ;)

[Aly Fell]

One of the reasons we have Gay Pride Marches and not Straight Pride Marches is 'straight' people have not been killed, beaten up, oppressed and treated as subhuman for most of history. But hey, if someone wants to organise it, why not!

[GhostValkyrie]

It's easy to say that you are married and to wear a ring, but what about insurance benefits and taxes? If marriage has nothing to do with the state, how come hetero couples have some LEGAL rights that gay couples don't?




I don't have any insurance. So count me out of your quick typed statistic.
I thought I stated to get the state out of this practice. Though I'm not religious at all, I see this practice as a form of personal belief. There's always common law, in which people can be married without having the license thus not taking part in the almost non-existent tax breaks everyone says people get. The only real tax break I've noticed for married couples is when one is a student and entirely dependent on the other's income.

If it didn't boil down to getting tax breaks, and was really about simply being married to someone you love this wouldn't be an issue. People would be fighting for marriage, and fighting to get the state out of these affairs. But people tend to prefer to have their rights handed to them(meaning they can be just as easily taken away in the fine print) than to take a stand for them.

Marriage shouldn't be a facilitation of the state. The only time I see the state being involved in marriage should be if a crime is committed against a party. Such as when certain religions forcefully marry young children to adults fully aware of their actions, marriage being foisted upon a young couple because of their parents beliefs, etc. Pretty much the state is to be ensuring people have their freedom, not seeking to destroy it. You're making something out of my post that didn't exist. Go back through time and you'll see I've supported gay rights. Not because they're gay rights, but because they're rights that we all have/should have. If someone else rights are illegally or forcibly infringed upon; It effects me.

I take freedom very seriously. It's not just some excuse I use to beg the government for entitlements/hand-outs like others.

Also - How can you assume that because a parade isn't specifically intended for gay pride that it's heterosexual? I'm sure homosexuals and lesbians take part in other displays of celebration/protest next to heterosexuals. I don't agree with a previous poster's idea of having a straight pride parade, but I don't agree with many pride parades because there is a tendency for self-segregation due to the people creating collectives in our society. But, it's a freedom we have and it shouldn't go to waste. So I say do what you do.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems you're creating an example of the Us/them mentality prevalent in group-thinking I was talking about.

[Baron Impossible]

I can just imagine the person who typed that letter sitting inside fuming whilst everyone else is outside having a good time. Still, there's an upside - I guess (s)he could take the opportunity to brush up on their written language skills.

[s.ketch]

Marriage is a religious function/function of belief.

Nope, there are two institutions of marriage. Legal definition and religious definition. One is a pretty ceremony, one is a legal contract between two people. No one cares about the religious part because this is supposed to be a secular country, not one run by people who believe in a giant invisible man. Of course you can't tell those of "faith" about that because they're too busy thinking that law and religious scripture are one in the same.

[Kagemusha22]

Pink is a perfectly manly colour :overhere:

Exactly! (http://www.colormatters.com/colors_pink.html)

In almost every culture, one stereotype emerges: pink is associated with girls, blue with boys. Unfortunately, there is no consensus of opinion on its origin.


According to Jean Heifetz, for centuries, all European children were dressed in blue because the color was associated with the Virgin Mary. The use of pink and blue emerged at the turn of the century, the rule being pink for boys, blue for girls. Since pink was a stronger color it was best suited for boys; blue was more delicate and dainty and best for girls. And in 1921, the Women's Institute for Domestic Science in Pennsylvania endorsed pink for boys, blue for girls. (When Blue Meant Yellow. pp. 20 -21)

One could argue that contemporary color symbolism confirms these associations. Blue is considered a calm, passive color, hence feminine. Red (pink derived from red) is considered active hence masculine.


Putting the gender role stuff aside, it puts a decent arguement for Pink being acceptable. :wink:

[CCThrom]

Sorry to add to this derail... but I've got to second Buckwiesel...

Marriage is not and never has been only a religious function. And the legal implications involve a LOT more than just tax breaks.

[Cthogua]

I'm pretty sure Peter is right in that it's actually illegal to place things in other people's mailboxes if you're not a letter carrier. If someone went around stuffing these into your mailbox with actually mailing they've committed a federal crime as that's considered to be mail tampering.

As far the hate...it's sad, and it's even sadder, and more repugnant that hate can be disguised as something as innocent seeming as caring for children, and reinforced by the followers of a God who supposedly loves everyone. I agree with those who've said it's free speech though. The nice thing is a lot of the time if someone is going to spew that much hate often they do a good job of showing their true colors.

[GhostValkyrie]

Nope, there are two institutions of marriage. Legal definition and religious definition. One is a pretty ceremony, one is a legal contract between two people. No one cares about the religious part because this is supposed to be a secular country, not one run by people who believe in a giant invisible man.

True. But the state only has as much room to decide who is married as people allow them to. Like I said, there's no real reason for having the tax breaks as there usually isn't a tax break, unless certain specifications apply to the couple. Such as one of them being unemployed and/or a full time student and other crap.

The state should have minimal involvement in marriage, with reference to infringement upon one or both party's rights, crimes committed and civil disputes (in this matter being breach of contract...which is also a crime.). Sorry I didn't cover the last one in my previous post.

In some states verbal contracts are legal and withstanding. Meaning that when vows are taken, the two have knowingly entered in a binding contract. Others with out this go with paperwork. When you have a certificate stating you are married and you have both signed the forms at either a religious institution or justice of the peace - again; The two have entered into a binding contract.

My point is that it shouldn't be as much of a state (mostly implied toward federal government) matter as it is. And it shouldn't be determined by a vote either. There shouldn't be an allowance, entitlement, or crumbs handed to the people. People should simply get married. The more this becomes a state affair, the more regulations will come into play and I think it will be a more tedious, harder road. But it may not end up being hard after all.

Of course you can't tell those of "faith" about that because they're too busy thinking that law and religious scripture are one in the same.

I can't entirely agree with this, as it's another generalization and stereotype. Usually due to people who get air time and publicity and make a mockery of some good people I know that are religious and understand it is a secular country. But, a decent percentage of that is true... and it's sad :(

[daestwen]

One of the interesting things (historicaly, anyway, many places have put provisions into law about this) about not being married is that you're not family or next of kin, so if your partner gets run over by a car and put in emergency ward you can't find out anything until you get in contact with your partner's next of kin.

"Marriage" as an institution has a lot more structure in place for things like adoption, death, property, financial institutions, etc, than common law does. These are the things that we're fighting for (and finally have in Canada, thank you!).

A lot of these things have been addressed, one by one, partially, in the different systems, but when just granting the title of marriage can impart all these things legally, how does it not make sense?

If you live in a country that claims to have seperated church and state, there is no reason to deny citizens the right to marry based on religious grounds. They don't have to get married in a church. If it were purely religious then why can athiests still get married? It's still called 'marriage' whether it's in a religious function or not, and up here in canada there are plenty of religious institutions that will marry a homosexual couple, so i don't even see how that's a full argument anyway...

Ahem.

That being said, that letter just made me laugh. :P It's so misspelled I can't take it seriously. i guess the cynic in me has just accepted that people like that exist and try to ruin things for everyone....

[Ilaekae]

Originally Posted by darkwolf29a...

"But, I do think we should start a straight pride parade. I mean....what's good for the goose is good for the gander!!"

Answer by GhostValkyrie...

"You can't do that. It would be considered a hate crime in the US. Only certain groups have rights nowadays."

Sorry, Ghost'... This is a completely false statement/lie.

*********************************

By Peter Coene...

"...it is illegal to put things in someone's mailbox unless you are a postal worker, as it is considered tampering with their mail."

Absolutely true. It's federal crime with severe penalties, and also applies to people stuffing newspapers, ad flyers, religious tracts, rubbish, and personal notes into the mailbox. You can hang it on a rack underneath, staple-gun it to the wall (if you don't mind being charged with vandalism), whatever, but you can't put it IN the mailbox.

**********************************

...and those of you throwing around comments about marriage being a religious, not state, contract...you really don't know what you're talking about. Check your facts before you open your yap.

Marriage is a legal contract that is part of and regulated by every government on the face of the earth. It isn't even a "given" right, but the official recognition of two people wishing to merge as a legal family unit before witnesses.

There are also many examples in history where two people couldn't marry officially (in or out of the church) without the express permission of the King, Czar, Tribal elders, slave-owner, or Chief, and many of these instances were in supposedly devout "Christian" societies, primarily because it effected the economic base that society was depended on. Marriage being authenticated by the state allows the right of co-ownership, access, the right to bear children with the right of inheritance, tax and medical relief where available, and a thousand other things we take for granted.

The religious involvement boils down to (usually) "Don't fuck your GF/BF before marriage," "Don't fuck your neighbors wife/husband," and "You're married...permanently (no divorce)." Now...we all know how successfully THOSE religious dictates are adhered to by the faithful, don't we?




ADD: You want to argue that marriage is a purely religious matter, I suggest you try getting married in the church of your choice without a marriage license, blood test and/or legal registration anywhere in the western world (and probably the majority of the rest of it).

[GhostValkyrie]

Originally Posted by darkwolf29a...

"But, I do think we should start a straight pride parade. I mean....what's good for the goose is good for the gander!!"

Answer by GhostValkyrie...

"You can't do that. It would be considered a hate crime in the US. Only certain groups have rights nowadays."

Sorry, Ghost'... This is a completely false statement/lie.



I'll have to go back to putting sarcasm alerts in posts I guess.


ADD: You want to argue that marriage is a purely religious matter, I suggest you try getting married in the church of your choice without a marriage license, blood test and/or legal registration anywhere in the western world (and probably the majority of the rest of it).

My argument wasn't that it's entirely religious, but a kind of provision. I'm only guessing this was aimed at me. Just guessing.
My wife and I would have preferred to perhaps elope or have our own thing. But the state requires the license and certification for benefits. It boils down to getting what you can out of it with regard to the state and legalities. Otherwise people would just buy rings and call themselves married.

[Ilaekae]

I actually assumed you were being sarcastic, but considering some of the arguments going on right now in this forum on theft, copyrights, Iran, marriage, politics and religion, I thought it would be good to point out the obvious to those with a first-grade education that seem to be especially verbose...



...unnerstan?

[Aphotic Phoenix]

The sodomy laws are unconstitutional and unenforceable. However, some states still attempt to enforce their laws. Virginia...

Interesting note about Virginia...we have the only state flag that depicts nudity, but showing nipple in strip clubs is illegal. Actually, until 2005 it was technically illegal for ALL unmarried people in VA to have sex...

[GhostValkyrie]

I actually assumed you were being sarcastic, but considering some of the arguments going on right now in this forum on theft, copyrights, Iran, marriage, politics and religion, I thought it would be good to point out the obvious to those with a first-grade education that seem to be especially verbose...



...unnerstan?

Uh-huh.

[Cthogua]

That being said, that letter just made me laugh. :P It's so misspelled I can't take it seriously. i guess the cynic in me has just accepted that people like that exist and try to ruin things for everyone....

Well, I think folk like the person who wrote that letter have more fear than real hate in their hearts. Fear can easily be manipulated into hate by those seeking to control. Those people are the truly despicable. The person that would pray on a parents fear for the safety of it's child, or the uneducated's ignorance, to advance a system of social intolerance is no less a predator than a pedophile, and certainly more dangerous to society as a whole. The ultimate flowering of those who seek to impose "decency" and "moral correctness" through coercion, intimidation, and the eventual violence their rhetoric inspires is groups like the Taliban, and the Ku Klux Klan. It really scares me when I look at the similarities between the dictates Islamic theocracies use to impose "Moral Correctness" on their populations and the values of the fundamentalist christian organizations they desire to see made into law. I have little doubt that a fundamentalist christian theocracy would really differ much at all from the Islamic "Republics" we see now in Iran and Saudi Arabia. I'm sure Jerry Falwell would've been tickled...pinker...to have been the "Grand Pastor" of the United States, and address the nation every Sunday with words of fear and hate for those who would seek to corrupt his beloved, pious nation.

[Elam]

You guys crack me up.

There's not anything remotely 'hateful' in that letter. It's primarily about watching out for school and neighborhood property, a valid concern if you've ever lived near an event/fair/etc.

Yet, if you didn't actually read the letter(most of you probably didn't) but read everyone's replies instead, you would think the letter said 'kill all fags'

Lighten up, Francis.

[JessiBean]

I *did* read it... The statements and insinuations that the Gay Pride group is comprised of sex offenders, crack dealers, vandals and will somehow threaten the safety of people and their children (by holding a parade) isn't really anything but grammatically awful hate speech. Replace any bit of that with "black" or "women", etc. and it sounds like we've regressed 60+ years.

But not to digress, thanks for the help (Steph, especially, will see what I can do about contacting news organizations and some other helpful folks)...
And hopefully the parade is awesome, will take photos to share if I can ;)

[Elam]

Gay folks and their advocates sure are obsessed about speech. It's a bit disconcerting to hear people who presumably consider themselves 'liberal' ranting on about something as innocuous as a flier.

Ya'll don't really sound much different than a conservative Billy Bob blathering on about burning the American flag.

Anyway, if the news shows up(number is on the flier!), make sure you have enough pitchforks and torches. And call Perez Hilton.

[Bill]

Not making a point here, but is there anything stopping two gay people from drawing up a legal contract between themselves that would cover those issues not already covered in civil unions? The adoption, death, property, financial institutions, etc. issues? I'm not saying they should have to, I'm just asking if they can.

[daestwen]

Bill: Adoption? Oh hell yes. Some places you're just simply not allowed to, if you're gay. Like I said, a lot of the others have been dealt with on an individual basis, but I don't see why someone should have to go through eight times the work to ensure the same rights that the rest of the population get off the bat. A lot of the issue lies with insurance, though, especially medical and life insurance, there are plenty of policies open only to those legally married. (Another thing you are better off coming to canada for! Government Health Care... )

Though, to be fair, a industrious couple that are determined can probably work out everything to be almost identical, but I don't see why they would bother with all that work when it's easier to come up to Canada. :P

How is it every time I post in the lounge I sound like one of those "Beautiful Canada" commercials with stock video of mountians and rivers and parades upon parades of gay people? :D

Elam: Ho boy, I really am not going to touch that one with a ten foot pole.

[TASmith]

"But aren't those kinds of generalizations and stereotypes the problem?"

It's not about generalizations or stereotypes. I'm not lumping anyone together. I know there are decent Texans out there. I have friends and family in Texas. Look back and read what I said again. I said don't be surprised you found a letter like that. Don't be surprised by the ignorant people who do exist. I've lived for 29 years in America, I've traveled all over it, and I've taught for about 4 years there. America's got good and bad, but it's also got an element of ignorance and hate that goes to extremes. I guess the closest you could compare it to in Europe is racism against gypsies, especially in Hungary. Don't be surprised it exists, but do your best to combat it maturely.

[Elam]

I guess the closest you could compare it to in Europe is racism against gypsies, especially in Hungary

Yet America has no mainstream political groups which espouse what your calling racism. Europe has plenty: (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/5474802/European-elections-2009-extremists-make-gains-across-Europe-at-the-expense-of-the-Left.html) The BNP, Geert Weilder's Party for Freedom, Le Pen in France. And that's Western Europe. Eastern Europe is too insulated and homogeneous to even know, imo. And Russia?

[alesoun]

Yet America has no mainstream political groups which espouse what your calling racism. Europe has plenty: (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/5474802/European-elections-2009-extremists-make-gains-across-Europe-at-the-expense-of-the-Left.html) The BNP, Geert Weilder's Party for Freedom, Le Pen in France. And that's Western Europe. Eastern Europe is too insulated and homogeneous to even know, imo. And Russia?

Jeez, who'da guessed? Some people just don't like each other. Might be an insecurity thing. Doubt if it's compulsory, though.....
edit: kkk?

[armando]

Pride in Manchester UK always has a particular church that prays for rain during the August bank holiday weekend. So far the past few Prides have been very sunny. Guess god isn't listening, or maybe he's just more sensible than his fans.

No church has a monopoly on God.

One of the reasons we have Gay Pride Marches and not Straight Pride Marches is 'straight' people have not been killed, beaten up, oppressed and treated as subhuman for most of history. But hey, if someone wants to organise it, why not!

People have been killing, beating, and oppressing each other since the dawn of man. Straights and homosexuals.

[armando]

Exactly! (http://www.colormatters.com/colors_pink.html)



Putting the gender role stuff aside, it puts a decent arguement for Pink being acceptable. :wink:

Pink is not the same as red. Red is vigorous, pink is desaturated red, it's had the vigor taken out. You have have to consider hue, value, and chroma.

[TASmith]

Armando, what about hot pink?

[armando]

I think that's one of the colors they use in lazer tag, and I think I've seen some 80's bodybuilders wearing it. I suppose that could work. That color's super tacky though.

[ManicShadow]

I strongly believe that homophobia could be fazed out eventually if people didn't freak out and become incredibly offended by everything that could be viewed as even slightly anti-gay. Attention is usually what hateful people want. They want people to be indignant at what they say, that's what gives their words power.

Even though I support gay rights, I still accept that free speech and tolerance works both ways.

[GhostValkyrie]

Armando, what about hot pink?

I dunno. Though this it's not "hot", Something tells me it could still be a little too masculine.

[ShroudStar]

All hail Donut! (I love Red vs. Blue).

[Ilaekae]

"Yet America has no mainstream political groups which espouse what your calling racism. Europe has plenty: The BNP, Geert Weilder's Party for Freedom, Le Pen in France. And that's Western Europe. Eastern Europe is too insulated and homogeneous to even know, imo. And Russia?"

Elam, are you aware that Nixon was pro-abortion, primarily because of his hatred of INTER-RACIAL babies, that Chief Justice Earle Warren made his chops by preventing blacks and hispanics from registering in the 1964 elections, and...nah, I'll stop here because making a list of the over two-HUNDRED (that's 2-fuckin'-00) instances of outright racist/anti-female/anti-gay/anti-constitutional rights political bullshit that the US's God-Only Party of Morals and Sanctity has perpetrated over the last 40 years would be a fuckin' total waste of my fuckin' time. You ARE obviously aware, being the supremely well-informed and literate young man you appear to be, that King Reagan won his election by building on Nixon's plans for capturing the Racist Southern Dixiecrats in the elections...a policy that still continues with the Republican party.

I suggest you get your head out of your ass and realize that the world didn't start when you were age 10 (what---about 10-15 years ago?) and bone up on reality before you start spitting out senseless shit like your last statement and your poo-poohing of hate literature. If you (or anyone else here) just wanna politely say you just can't stand f*gg*ts, n*gg*rs, and l*b*r*ls PERIOD (and I'm NOT saying you do!), at least have the balls to say it out loud and quit hiding under wishy-washy euphemisms and maybes.

[Wooly ESS]

I read the letter, then read the entire discussion, and then went back and read the letter again. There is not one scrap of religious rationale in the original letter, but somehow the discussion managed to degenerate into Christian bashing - again. Stereotype not, lest ye be stereotyped!

Furthermore, I find it hard to consider the content of the letter as "hate mail". No group has been defamed as far as I can tell. There is some reference to sex offenders and drug use at previous events.That is pretty much the modern standard for any public gathering of three or more people. You should visit the Calgary Stampede sometime.

Personally, I don't give a rat's patootie about Pride parades. I feel the same about Santa Claus parades. It's not my thing. I don't think it would be my thing even if I was gay (or Santa). If someone else wants to hold one, they are free to do so.

The real crime here is the grammar, spelling and punctuation. Anyone that ignorant should be preserved as a lab specimen.

[Bill]

Well, we've at least gotten to the point with other prejudices that we're no longer building our laws around them, I think. I confess I'm still not sure about the whole "Women having the right to vote" thing... anyway. Once our fabulous friends get their legal rights the way other groups have, my question is who do we persecute then? I'm debating between redheads and short people but am open to suggestion.

[GhostValkyrie]

I read the letter, then read the entire discussion, and then went back and read the letter again. There is not one scrap of religious rationale in the original letter, but somehow the discussion managed to degenerate into Christian bashing - again. Stereotype not, lest ye be stereotyped!

What? I thought you would be used to it by now. Many people here tend to stereotype then hide behind debate and call it hate speech. Though I'm not religious I try to be fair. I will admit that when I come down on religion it's usually islam. Mostly because it's youngest of the three major monotheistic religions, yet the preachiest advocate of violence and a more absolute opponent of free thought compared to the second and a decent percentage of the first. It's certainly up there with the old testament at least. IMO.

People who hate something will go out of their way to include it into any wrong doing. Rather than admit that bigots are bigots who will find any reason to make a criminal out of whatever they're opposed to( could be religion, crime-rate, excuse of morality awareness, etc), some would prefer to shift the blame entirely to something they despise... Making them bigots as well.

The real crime here is the grammar, spelling and punctuation. Anyone that ignorant should be preserved as a lab specimen.

Are you saying our taxes are going to scientific studies on ignoramus' now, too?

[Sorknes]

I live in a country that still hasn't managed to get the church and state apart from each other yet, but we actually have legal marriage for same sex couples equal with the opposite sex marriages. (I think they adressed everything that was not equal the last round, including adopting etc.) And I'm proud of us having that. :)

Now, if I got a letter like that, I'd contact the local sheriff/police/whatever lawenforcement around, and hand it to them. Where I live I'd gone to the local newspaper with it too, but I don't know about the situation around where you are, so I don't know if things just would hit the fan even worse with the idiots coming out from the woodworks if you did.

And gay pride parades are open for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals, you're free to show your support and look as gaudy as you want - I've done my "duty" in a couple of them. :P That comes with having gay friends. And if you don't have any gay friends, go ahead anyway, next year you'll have someone to plan with. ^^

[s.ketch]

I read the letter, then read the entire discussion, and then went back and read the letter again. There is not one scrap of religious rationale in the original letter, but somehow the discussion managed to degenerate into Christian bashing - again. Stereotype not, lest ye be stereotyped!

It went from gayness, to gay marriage, to religion. Not just straight into religion. Lots of exchanges of feet and shoes here, so let's all try not to get too butthurt about it.

Furthermore, I find it hard to consider the content of the letter as "hate mail". No group has been defamed as far as I can tell. There is some reference to sex offenders and drug use at previous events.That is pretty much the modern standard for any public gathering of three or more people. You should visit the Calgary Stampede sometime.

I think we can start by looking over whether this person actually knows the laws or not. They're definitely not a cop. Could be a Mayor, they kind of talk like a politician.

From "It is" to "free speech" the person asserts laws that may or may not exist. Next he/she brings up FREE SPEECH as if it has anything to do with parking violations. Most importantly however they say "This is a Gay Pride parade." and not just "This is a Parade." If they're so concerned with saftey, why does it matter what kind of parade it is? Does the distinction between a gay parade and a Christmas parade have to be made because one is more dangerous than the other? Do people at a gay parade have less respect for the law than those at any other kind of event?

Then it goes into damages on school grounds. Correlation does not equal causation, if someone was murdered during the parade it doesn't mean the parade was the cause. It says there are sex offenders affiliated with the event and staff. Evidence where? Names where? Hearsay much? According to familywatchdog.us there are about 20-30 offenders within decent driving distance. I am sure some of them shop at the same grocery store I do, they probably drive on the same streets, and occasionaly attend large gatherings in the city. Has nothing to do with what the parade is. I am not even going to talk about the crack dealer cause everyone has a friendly neighborhood crack dealer unless you live in the country or in a really white neighborhood.

Next, more random mumbling and laws that more than likely aren't real or even apply to the situation.

Now the fearmongering. THINK OF THE CHILDREN. So a gay parade is a threat to children everywhere because they might try to park in front of your drive way, tresspass, or be within tewnty five feet of a school. Gay parade people also play mine games (minsweeper ftw!) and tell lies about it for a vacation. Then free speech is brought up again for no reason, we are encouraged to discriminate, and are told by this lovely prophet that they will break the law.

Yeah, nothing wrong with the flier at all, just routine warning stuff. Can't wait to hear how next week's African-American Pride Parade calls for everyone in the vicinity to lock up their possesions and how people shouldn't leave their homes at night because they might be robbed.

[Elam]

Ilaekae, 'has' is present tense. 1964 was over 45 years ago.

Your an incoherent mess.

Furthermore, I find it hard to consider the content of the letter as "hate mail".

Gotta keep up with the times bro:

Hate speech is a term for speech intended to offend[citation needed] a person or group of people based on their race, gender, age, ethnicity, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, language ability, ideology, social class, occupation, appearance (height, weight, hair color, etc.), mental capacity, and any other distinction that might be considered by some as a liability. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech)

That definition is hilarious. hair color?

[Bill]

That definition is hilarious. hair color?

Redheads it is. Who's with me?





Ilaekae, 'has' is present tense. 1964 was over 45 years ago.

Your an incoherent mess.

Oh, and hey Elam, do that thing again where you call Jason the troll. That shit is Classic Man... classic.

[s.ketch]

ex) Stupid gingers.

[Ilaekae]

Elam, it's spelled "you're" where i come from...no wonder you can't find anything wrong with the OP's letter--all the illiteracy/lousy grammer is just mushing together in your little head, isn't it?

Oh...and I'll get some more incoherent shit together for you to ridicule that's more recent . Do you want it from this past week, past month, or do I have a complete six months or year even? Your call... Just beware that I WILL back up what I say with facts, not the bullshit that seems to be all too common here sometimes.

[Muz]

In high school i had alot of shit put on me because of my red hair....

[Troubadour]

we seem to be stumbling mainly over the topic of the theoretic amendment of the separation of church and state, one that seems to have been ignored/overlooked constantly.

[Aly Fell]

People have been killing, beating, and oppressing each other since the dawn of man. Straights and homosexuals.
Really..! :P I hadn't noticed... however, straight people rarely, if EVER suffer abuse because of their sexual orientation.THAT was my point. But I think you knew that really...

[Baron Impossible]

In high school i had alot of shit put on me because of my red hair....

So? I was going bald at 15 :) Not that anyone dared mention it...

[Katfayheirti]

Well, we've at least gotten to the point with other prejudices that we're no longer building our laws around them, I think. I confess I'm still not sure about the whole "Women having the right to vote" thing... anyway. Once our fabulous friends get their legal rights the way other groups have, my question is who do we persecute then? I'm debating between redheads and short people but am open to suggestion.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=ac06eaac-1cb1-4ee7-8e17-a9b8b314af71

You've been beat to the redhead thing.
Human beings will always find smaller and smaller differences over which to separate themselves.
As a ginger myself, I'm particularly appalled. I didn't know we were being separated out like that too now. : < human beings make me very sad sometimes

[waronmars]

edit: I read gud

[Katfayheirti]

Are you aware that Nixon was pro-abortion, primarily because of his hatred of INTER-RACIAL babies, that Chief Justice Earle Warren made his chops by preventing blacks and hispanics from registering in the 1964 elections, and...nah, I'll stop here because making a list of the over two-HUNDRED (that's 2-fuckin'-00) instances of outright racist/anti-female/anti-gay/anti-constitutional rights political bullshit that the US's God-Only Party of Morals and Sanctity has perpetrated over the last 40 years would be a fuckin' total waste of my fuckin' time.

I grew up in the deep south, and I can assure you that racism is quite alive and well. Even as recently as 2003, I still got shit from my racist grandparents for having black, hispanic, and fillipino friends. People would stare at us when we went out shopping together and I used to give a stare back like 'WTF are you LOOKING AT??!" I can't stress enough how important I feel it is to combat these attitudes, especially with the recent hate killings on the news. Thanks for posting this, Ilaekae

[Elam]

Oh...and I'll get some more incoherent shit together for you to ridicule that's more recent . Do you want it from this past week, past month, or do I have a complete six months or year even? Your call... Just beware that I WILL back up what I say with facts, not the bullshit that seems to be all too common here sometimes.

Sure, knock yourself out. How about the last week. Old folks gotta keep busy. I suggest you go back and read my post before you start your copy paste frenzy, so you're(!) not wandering down the wrong path.

Oh, and hey Elam, do that thing again where you call Jason the troll. That shit is Classic Man... classic.
Let's say I start a thread about puppies. About how great they are etc. Someone says, "yeah puppies are great. And you know what else? I hate George Bush. (http://conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2305688&postcount=30)".

Trolling?

[s.ketch]

No, trolling is when you say something you don't really believe just to get a rise out of people.

ex. 2)If you're gay more than likely you will contract AIDS.

It's not really true, nor do I believe but it sure will piss people here off. Learn2troll.

[Elam]

"In Internet slang, a troll ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll) is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion"

Your definition may vary.

[Katfayheirti]

"In Internet slang, a troll ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll) is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion"

Your definition may vary.


'Looks a little bit like what's going on now, unless you consider internet trolling on topic with pride parade hate letters

[Derek the Usurper]

I read the letter, then read the entire discussion, and then went back and read the letter again. There is not one scrap of religious rationale in the original letter, but somehow the discussion managed to degenerate into Christian bashing - again. Stereotype not, lest ye be stereotyped!


There is no rational moral objection to homosexuality that isn't rooted in religion.

[Costau D]

God, some of you will argue about anything!

[s.ketch]

No we won't!

[smugbug]

You see crap like that (letter that is subject of this thread) and fear for humanity. But then you see letters like this: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/06/26/DDOH18BVH7.DTL

And know that all will be all right. There are plenty of eloquent, humane, witty and intelligent people out there who can counter the dolts who pen crap and live in fear and ignorance.

Here's just a sample of the letter in that link:


It's been 40 years since that night. I was 24 and two years out of the U.S. Marine Corps; two years since I had "turned myself in" to my CO because I was queer and I didn't want to go and kill or be killed in Vietnam for a government that did not want to recognize my right to exist.

I just wanted to be what I am. A gay man trying to be happy in a straight world. Sad to say, I'm still fighting the same war. Different battle. To remember Stonewall one must remember its context, its moment in time. It was a time of politics; a time of demonstrations, awareness and idealism. It was a time to march for peace and equal rights - on Selma and Montgomery, on the Pentagon, on the convention in Chicago. Anytime and anywhere injustice was perceived. There were movements everywhere. The civil rights movement, the peace movement, the women's movement. There were hippies and flower power, Cesar Chavez and the farmworkers, Black Panthers, Gray Panthers, the Weathermen and SDS. Woodstock was two months in the future, we were about to land on the moon and the whole world was watching the queers in Greenwich Village. The ground was shifting right under the establishment's feet.

That night the world changed for me and for every other gay, lesbian, bi, cross-dressing and transgender person on the planet. That night we were all reborn in the baptism of that hose's "holy" water.

Today I am 64 years old. I am a poet and retired actor. My face has, many times, graced the silver screen. I am 25 years HIV positive. I have marched and demonstrated all my life. I marched in San Francisco the night Harvey Milk and George Moscone were shot, and months later I rioted. I've marched on conventions and city halls.

I've marched in New York and D.C., San Francisco and L.A.

I've marched in daylight and with a candle in my hand. I've marched for the living and the dead.

I've grown tired and old and sick marching. I've grown powerful and brave, wise and proud marching.

So even after 40 years, every time I hear Garland's voice sing that haunting song, I think of bluebirds and lemon drops, a fire hose and freedom. And for that freedom and our rights, I am - and many, many others are - prepared to march under our rainbow flags forever.


Do yourself a favor, and read the whole thing. You'll feel MUCH better. :D

[Qitsune]

... I'm debating between redheads and short people but am open to suggestion.
Well, only a ginger can call another ginger ginger. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaQWGWg0x_Q)


Do yourself a favor, and read the whole thing. You'll feel MUCH better. :D
WOW

[CKLamb]

JessiBean- Isn't Houston lovely? You guys should transfer over to Austin ASAP.

[velderia]

Ugh. The part where it says:

"You have the Right of FREE SPEECH [space][space][space] Discriminate [space][dot]"

Wtf?

And "Used of drugs (crack dealer)" Lulz... WTF???

The grammar hurts meh brain. D:

[EFrost]

Exposing your children to grammar like that is a lot more damaging than any pride parade could ever dream of being.

[armando]

Really..! :P I hadn't noticed... however, straight people rarely, if EVER suffer abuse because of their sexual orientation.THAT was my point. But I think you knew that really...

Ha ha. Please. We fight each other all the time because of our straightness. "You lookin at my woman?!" Guy's are always trying to prove their machoness. Helen of Troy "the face that launched a thousand battleships". In ancient battles, I believe it wasn't uncommon to kill all the men from the defeated village, but spare the women. To a certain extent fighting is good, mostly the one on one variety, it's just part of life. Life is pain.
Doesn't really matter what reasons people come up with to oppress each other, it's always wrong(probably, maybe there could be a case where it could be arguable? I admit I need to study history). Sexuality shouldn't be singled out.


There is no rational moral objection to homosexuality that isn't rooted in religion.

That statement is a result of indoctrination. Homosexuality is abnormal. Look at it statistically and biologically. That is not a statement of hate, but a statement of fact. Color blindness is abnormal. That statement causes no disgust, yet the first one does. Why is that? I hate neither group. Yet I can define what is right conduct. I believe heterosexuality is what is right.

[Derek the Usurper]

Ha ha. Please. We fight each other all the time because of our straightness. "You lookin at my woman?!" Guy's are always trying to prove their machoness. Helen of Troy "the face that launched a thousand battleships". In ancient battles, I believe it wasn't uncommon to kill all the men from the defeated village, but spare the women. To a certain extent fighting is good, mostly the one on one variety, it's just part of life. Life is pain.
Doesn't really matter what reasons people come up with to oppress each other, it's always wrong(probably, maybe there could be a case where it could be arguable? I admit I need to study history). Sexuality shouldn't be singled out.




That statement is a result of indoctrination. Homosexuality is abnormal. Look at it statistically and biologically. That is not a statement of hate, but a statement of fact. Color blindness is abnormal. That statement causes no disgust, yet the first one does. Why is that? I hate neither group. Yet I can define what is right conduct. I believe heterosexuality is what is right.

Heterosexual sex that doesn't result in reproduction is just as abnormal. Homosexuality exists in nature in numerous species other than our own. Your comparison is invalid because you would never assert a moral judgment of right or wrong onto color blindness like you are doing with sexuality.

Something being wrong just because you say so is not a rational objection or argument. Why don't you come up with some examples or evidence why you think homosexuality is wrong.

[armando]

Heterosexual sex that doesn't result in reproduction is just as abnormal.

Heterosexual behaviors don't have to result in pregnancy, holding hands, kissing, sex with a condom, but they are impelled by that biological urge.


Homosexuality exists in nature in numerous species other than our own.

Link me to a good book or website and I'll check it out. From what I know either these behaviors are abnormal in the species, or they are irrelevant to human experience.


Your comparison is invalid because you would never assert a moral judgment of right or wrong onto color blindness like you are doing with sexuality.

I consider them both defects.


Something being wrong just because you say so is not a rational objection or argument. Why don't you come up with some examples or evidence why you think homosexuality is wrong.

2% of the population is homosexual. Sexual behavior stems from biology. Even though we aren't consciously thinking about, or don't desire it, the function of sexual attraction is to cause reproduction. Preventing pregnancy does not change this fact. The burden of proof is really on homosexuals to justify their sexuality, however all I've seen is nothing more than faith no different than the christians they tend to mock.

[Jason Rainville]

The burden of proof is really on homosexuals to justify their sexuality.

Why would anyone need to do such a thing?

That statement is a result of indoctrination. Homosexuality is abnormal. Look at it statistically and biologically. That is not a statement of hate, but a statement of fact. Color blindness is abnormal. That statement causes no disgust, yet the first one does. Why is that? I hate neither group. Yet I can define what is right conduct. I believe heterosexuality is what is right.

I consider them both defects.

Neither of those are moral statements. You are responding to the claim that there are no moral objections to homosexuality that are not grounded in religion. You are conflating abnormal with amoral. Statistical probabilities and defects say nothing of morals.

Link me to a good book or website and I'll check it out. From what I know either these behaviors are abnormal in the species, or they are irrelevant to human experience.


Google is ever your friend. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals#Research_on_homosexual_be havior_in_animals) Note that I am not making the argument that natural necessarily means good and wholesome, I am only countering the claim that homosexuality is not natural. Statistical improbability has no bearing on what is natural, btw. Painite is one of the rarest gem minerals yet it is still completely natural.

[Steph Laberis]

Just to bring some perspective back here... I"m all about celebrating sexuality but this kinda resonated for me.

http://www.darcomic.org/comics/2009-06-23identity.jpg

I'm also just not up for arguing with people claiming that letter wasn't hate mail. Sorry. I don't need Mine Gaems.

[Katfayheirti]

I consider them both defects.

Or potentially beneficial aberrances? :) The diversity of the human species is its strength. If we were all the same, we would have died out ages ago.

[Ilaekae]

It still boils down to one basic fact--there are too many people with illogical arguments and personal or religious biases trying to criminalize homosexuality through the withholding of basic equal human rights. I don't see anyone trying the same with color blindness, left-handedness or any number of other non-fatal genetic quirks.

As for your comment on "showing you proof of homosexuality within other species," how about getting off your ass and just googling it. There have been proven and accepted examples for many years of homosexuality among nearly every higher species on earth, including examples of homosexual penguins pairing for life and raising abandoned chicks as their own.

Armando, you and everyone else who chooses homosexuality as a SPECIFIC genetic trait to rail against, excluding all others, would get a bit more respect if you actually shut up long enough to get some decent easily-researched facts together before entering an argument on one side or the other. Otherwise, you're providing proof of bias based on YOUR personal religious or political beliefs.

The generally accepted scientific belief based on all research I've seen so far indicates that homosexuality appears to be a genetically-based condition within nearly all species, affecting anywhere from 2-3% to as high as 10% of all species involved.

In a scientific sense, homosexuality, and any other minority idiosyncrasy within ANY species, can be legitimately called "abnormal," or even a "defect," if it interferes with the survival/reproduction of that species/individual, but that does not make it ILLEGAL. It simply boils down to the fact that you cannot make homosexuality ILLEGAL (and thus legislate against it as an "abomination") without doing the exact same thing for baldness, infertility, webbed fingers, left-handedness, blindness or skin color without falsifying the rationale for such actions. You have every personal right to hate the blind or deaf (it's called "Free Speech"), but you have no fucking right to prevent them from receiving the same rights you receive from society.

[Black Spot]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/5550488/Homosexual-behaviour-widespread-in-animals-according-to-new-study.html

And it's not bad news.

[Aphotic Phoenix]

Link me to a good book or website and I'll check it out. From what I know either these behaviors are abnormal in the species, or they are irrelevant to human experience.

I really don't know why I'm bothering but anyway:
Quoted from the Intersex Society of North America
Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female = one in 100 births
Considering how different people can be physically, it's really a stretch of logic to believe that everyone is going to fit in some pretty little black and white categorization mentally.

You could of course start with the HBO documentary "Middle Sexes" which primarily focuses on those who are genetically male. Just don't be insulted when they quote research that shows a positive correlation between homophobic behavior and arousal when watching "gay" sex.

[daestwen]

I'm going to derail this thread back to some real pride, guys, since this other stuff is annoying me!

Just wanted to say that I am so proud of my country right now!

I just came back from the first day of pride weekend.

The army had a recruiting station smack in the middle of the festival. :] Same with the RCMP, Toronto Police, Durham Police and the OPP!

We've come a long way, folks!

[Jason Rainville]

The army had a recruiting station smack in the middle of the festival. :] Same with the RCMP, Toronto Police, Durham Police and the OPP!

We've come a long way, folks!

It's a trick! They'll only use your colourful plumage and vigorous movements as decoys for the enemy :O

Or they've finally pulled their heads out of their asses. Whichever :)

[Katfayheirti]

I'm going to derail this thread back to some real pride, guys, since this other stuff is annoying me!

Just wanted to say that I am so proud of my country right now!

I just came back from the first day of pride weekend.

The army had a recruiting station smack in the middle of the festival. :] Same with the RCMP, Toronto Police, Durham Police and the OPP!

We've come a long way, folks!


Awesome!

[Wooly ESS]

I see your Pride weekend, Daestwen, and raise you a GAY RODEO!!!

Look what's happening this weekend in the sleepy little prairie town I live in, right in the middle of COWBOY COUNTRY. Anybody can have a Pride Parade in limp-wristed Toronto, but it takes a real man (or woman) to ride in a Wild Drag race.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/Life/Alberta+town+embraces+rodeo/1627727/story.html

[Derek the Usurper]

Heterosexual behaviors don't have to result in pregnancy, holding hands, kissing, sex with a condom, but they are impelled by that biological urge.



Link me to a good book or website and I'll check it out. From what I know either these behaviors are abnormal in the species, or they are irrelevant to human experience.



I consider them both defects.



2% of the population is homosexual. Sexual behavior stems from biology. Even though we aren't consciously thinking about, or don't desire it, the function of sexual attraction is to cause reproduction. Preventing pregnancy does not change this fact. The burden of proof is really on homosexuals to justify their sexuality, however all I've seen is nothing more than faith no different than the christians they tend to mock.

Actually, no, the burden of proof lies on you who asserted that homosexuality is morally wrong. You have provided no evidence that it is harmful in any way to anyone or anything.

[alesoun]

Ah! Pah to all your homophobic worries! Our local Highland games is next Sunday. Anybody parks in front of my house when I've had to move my car for the parade, or tosses garbage in my garden and I'm gonna play the pipes of war (badly) at them, even if they ARE wearing skirts and have beards!

C'mon, guys! It's the local grouch! Every neighbourhood has one. (Mine lives next door and we smile and ignore her).

It's not worth sniping at each other for.

Is it?

[TASmith]

I wouldn't go so far as to call colorblindness abnormal. It's merely recessive, but still fairly common. Abnormal has alot of negative connotations, that are only justified in circumstances where one's behavior is hurtful to oneself or others. Necrophelia and fecal fetishes are abnormal. Hunting people on an island for sport is abnormal. Homosexuality, not so much, at all.

[Elam]

You have every personal right to hate the blind or deaf (it's called "Free Speech")

Hey, better tell Jessibean, she wants the lynch mob on the case, stat.

It's merely recessive, but still fairly common.
Do you just make these statements up as you go along? 1-8% is not common. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorblind)

Armando, you and everyone else who argues against homosexuality as a SPECIFIC genetic trait to rail against, excluding all others, would get a bit more respect if you actually shut up long enough to get some decent easily-researched facts together before entering an argument on one side or the other.
heh. Pot, kettle, black and all that. Some advice. How about YOU shut up long enough to actually read and understand what people are saying, instead of being your usual boorish, reactionary self. His first comment was merely that homosexuality is scientifically abnormal, thus people may have an adverse reaction to it, and therefore it is a rational impulse to 'flinch' from it. (http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1710828/research_shows_that_women_look_away_from_abnormal_ babies/)

[SoufMeng]

Ha ha. Please. We fight each other all the time because of our straightness. "You lookin at my woman?!" Guy's are always trying to prove their machoness. Helen of Troy "the face that launched a thousand battleships". In ancient battles, I believe it wasn't uncommon to kill all the men from the defeated village, but spare the women. To a certain extent fighting is good, mostly the one on one variety, it's just part of life. Life is pain.
Doesn't really matter what reasons people come up with to oppress each other, it's always wrong(probably, maybe there could be a case where it could be arguable? I admit I need to study history). Sexuality shouldn't be singled out.
So no matter how indefensible the position, you'll just keep quibbling about it, just because its yours, no matter what, right?
Your examples of violence against straight people are completely irrelevant to what Poshspice said.
When Rob kills Bob because Bob slept with Rob's wife, he intends to punish Bob for his deeds.
When Rob hangs Bob by the balls for kidnapping Helen of Troy, he, once again, intends to punish Bob for his deeds.
When Rob stabs Bob to death because Bob is gay, he intends to punish him for what he IS. In the latter case Bob didnt do anything wrong... except existing.

The burden of proof is really on homosexuals to justify their sexuality, however all I've seen is nothing more than faith no different than the christians they tend to mock.
:nohope:

[GhostValkyrie]

Woah!

I just had the scariest dream.

For a moment people were rationally debating their opinions and trying to explain (and understand) one another, rather than making irrational assumptions based on their own personal prejudices and stereotypes of people who disagree with them. There were little, if any, insults. People were asking questions to gain an actual insight. And the persons who were making insults were asked by people who even agreed with them to remain civil. Those who claimed to keep an open mind did just that; They kept an open mind themselves.

It was almost like everyone had evolved.

Damn. I'm so glad you guys are still here... I was really worried.

[JessiBean]

Hey, better tell Jessibean, she wants the lynch mob on the case, stat.


Hey now, I've been out of this for a bit because arguing with you over semantics is pointless. I asked for some advice and help, Steph gave it, I'm good. All the other arguing, you will notice, is not coming from me. Don't try and put words in my mouth.

And back on topic, the parade was LOADS of fun. :teeth:

[Edward Cherniga]

That's really good news. Glad you had fun. :}

[TASmith]

"Do you just make these statements up as you go along? 1-8% is not common."

In a population of 6.7 billion? Oh yeah, that's common.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation

EDIT: Just to illustrate, in America there are 300 million people. So if 1-4% are gay, that's 3-12 million gay men and women in America. At the same time, according to a Crime TV program I saw, there are only about 33 serial killers active at any time in America. So 12 million versus 33..... Any questions?

[Zaxser]

And back on topic, the parade was LOADS of fun. :teeth:

Pics or it didn't happen.

[Ilaekae]

Elam, I seem to be a bit confused here...

Would you kindly point out where Armando made this statement you're referring to?

"...His first comment was merely that homosexuality is scientifically abnormal, thus people may have an adverse reaction to it, and therefore it is a rational impulse to 'flinch' from it."

I'm being absolutely serious here. I'm the one that stated that from a scientific viewpoint, homosexuality is "abnormal" (as well as a number of other things). You appear to be either putting words in Armando's mouth or calling me a blatant liar, neither of which seems to be called for here.

[TASmith]

I thought he was disputing me, as it appears I'm disputing you...

weird.

[GhostValkyrie]

I thought he was disputing me, as it appears I'm disputing you...

weird.

Would that be... abnormal?

[Ilaekae]

Definitely. Is there any way we can stop him from breeding before it gets out of hand or is it too late?

...actually, I'm still sitting here getting little tingly chills up my spine from being called a reactionary boor. It's probably the nicest thing anyone ever called me...sniff...

[TASmith]

"Is there any way we can stop him from breeding before it gets out of hand or is it too late?"

Dude, check my avatar, you're two years too late. :P

[Ilaekae]

Damn...







btw, if you build a sandbox for your kid, don't get any cats as pets. :P

Trust me on this one...

[armando]

Why would anyone need to do such a thing?


If I'm going to believe what they say they need to give me the proof. Homosexual ideology goes beyond mere acceptance, what they want to say is that everyone is gay, but the fact is heteros are not secretly gay. The 1-10 scale of bisexuality only exists with bisexuals.


Neither of those are moral statements. You are responding to the claim that there are no moral objections to homosexuality that are not grounded in religion. You are conflating abnormal with amoral. Statistical probabilities and defects say nothing of morals.

But I am making a value judgement in saying that homosexuality is undesirable.

Google is ever your friend. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals#Research_on_homosexual_be havior_in_animals) Note that I am not making the argument that natural necessarily means good and wholesome, I am only countering the claim that homosexuality is not natural. Statistical improbability has no bearing on what is natural, btw. Painite is one of the rarest gem minerals yet it is still completely natural.

I want to know the specific books, studies, and scientists people are listening to. Otherwise I could go on randomly looking through google for hours, picking my way through rubbish. I spent a couple of hours reading through those links, not impressed. Just because something occurs it isn't validated. An abnormality is just that because it happens so rarely. Painite is painite, not an abnormal form of some other gem(perhaps pizza night?).


Or potentially beneficial aberrances? The diversity of the human species is its strength. If we were all the same, we would have died out ages ago.
Controversial speculation. If someone can make a really good argument and prove it, I'll believe it.

It still boils down to one basic fact--there are too many people with illogical arguments and personal or religious biases trying to criminalize homosexuality through the withholding of basic equal human rights. I don't see anyone trying the same with color blindness, left-handedness or any number of other non-fatal genetic quirks.

I have no religion. I didn't vote on prop 8. I'm not trying to criminalize homosexuality, I only consider it undesirable.

As for your comment on "showing you proof of homosexuality within other species," how about getting off your ass and just googling it. There have been proven and accepted examples for many years of homosexuality among nearly every higher species on earth, including examples of homosexual penguins pairing for life and raising abandoned chicks as their own.

Just googling leads to too much crap, I want to know what strong arguments have convinced people of their views, in that way I save hours by just asking. I looked through the links on wikipedia, and I am thoroughly unimpressed with what I have seen. It looks like sloppy biased investigation. Bruce Bagemihl, and Joan Roughgarden, obviously have agendas. Roughgarden's work has been called ""completely shoddy science and poor scholarship.", by other scientists.
The percentages of these animals that are homosexual is unimpressive, usually ranging from 4% to 8%. That means 92% to 96% are heterosexual. The only thing that impressed me was the giraffes, yet I'll stay skeptical until I look further into that.
Most of these behaviors tend to be observed in captive animals. Some examples of bisexuality are willfully misinterpreted. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/07/30/070730fa_fact_parker?currentPage=10 It's likely that female-female genital rubbing among monkeys has more social function than sexual funciton. Like how a dog sniffing anothers ass is not the same as a pervert sniffing someone's underwear.


Armando, you and everyone else who argues against homosexuality as a SPECIFIC genetic trait to rail against, excluding all others, would get a bit more respect if you actually shut up long enough to get some decent easily-researched facts together before entering an argument on one side or the other. Otherwise, you're providing proof of bias based on YOUR personal religious or political beliefs.

You would do well not to go attacking any and everyone who happens to disagree with your ideology. I would also encourage you to post some of these facts that you consider strongly convincing. Color blind people aren't going around saying that it's great to be colorblind, they are accepted but not glorified. I disagree with all groups that try to spin reality. There are some deaf and autistic groups that try to present them as a seperate culture, but to me it's nonsense: one has something wrong with their ears, the other has something wrong with their brains. I wear glasses, my eyes don't work right, I don't say I belong to a myopic culture. Lets call a spade a spade.

You have every personal right to hate the blind or deaf (it's called "Free Speech"), but you have no fucking right to prevent them from receiving the same rights you receive from society.

I do not hate these people, and I have not once actively prevented gays from recieveing any rights. Your problem is that you won't accept anyone with an ideology counter to your own. This goes beyond simple disagreement, that's why you're throwing in "hate". You also called me ignorant, lazy, illogical, and maybe one or two other things(getting tired). How many times must kev ferrara beat it into your head that ad hominems are not arguments? Rather than come up with arguments, just call the the guy a heretic and be done with it.

Aphotic Phoenix: 1 in 100. Just look at that. There is normal, and there is abnormal. That's just the way it is. "Just don't be insulted when they quote research that shows a positive correlation between homophobic behavior and arousal when watching "gay" sex. " Why would I be insulted by biased propaganda? You are calling me homophobic, and secretly gay. Homophobia exists in a very small part of the population, these are the people who truly hate homosexuals. "Homophobia" as the word tends to be used is just a way into intimidating people from saying anything other than "homsexuality is awesome". I am not secretly gay, if I was what would stop me from acting on it? Nothing. I could go down to Castro any time I wanted, I could download gay porn any time I wanted. Straight people are not secretly gay.

S.M: For me it comes down to drawinian sexual selection. Homosexuality aberrates from this. The only people who kill homosexuals these days are deluded crazy asses. It rarely happens. Yet men fighting over women continues to happen on a large scale, and will continue to happen.

DerektheUsurper: Harmlessness does not validate behavior. Cowardice results in the least amount of harm for a person, yet it is morally wrong. Anxiety is clinical cowardice, if it is not morally wrong, it is still undesirable.

[TASmith]

we have a sandbox, and we don't have a cat, but I want one. When Andrew's old enough to help take care of it, and I'll keep it indoors.

Hope no one's upset how this thread derailed. I guess it was destined for a wreck from the start, even though it's a valid topic.

[GhostValkyrie]

we have a sandbox, and we don't have a cat, but I want one. When Andrew's old enough to help take care of it, and I'll keep it indoors.

Hope no one's upset how this thread derailed. I guess it was destined for a wreck from the start, even though it's a valid topic.

I doubt it. Jessi started the thread n' shes happy she went to the parade. It looks like the neighborhood cook(judging by his demeanor, not his account of what happened previously. I wasn't there.) wasn't around couldn't be heard. Maybe he wasn't audible over the sound of the Hummers...

And I aint talkin' bout the military vehicle my friend. ;)

[Ilaekae]

"You would do well not to go attacking any and everyone who happens to disagree with your ideology."

Exactly what is my ideology, since you are referring to it? You apparently are fully informed of my beliefs and political stance, so please pass them on to everyone else here so that we all can be enlightened. So far, the only reference I have "from a reliable source" to enlighten myself as to my personal beliefs/etc., is that I'm a reactionary boor. There just has to be more...don't you think? Oh...wait...that was stupid of me. You ALREADY know...

Every argument I make is based on one simple belief--that no free rational human being who has reached the age of consent living under the Constitution of the United States should ever be denied their full rights as a citizen because of their gender, sexual preferences, skin color, religion, political beliefs, etc., UNLESS their beliefs or preferences harm or in any way infringe on another's rights. Anything else would be immoral, illegal, and intolerant by any Constitutional standards. And even I would think it was beneath you to try to throw back bestiality, pedo, polygamy, or any other similar idiotic examples back in my face for reasons obvious to anyone who can count higher than two without using their fingers.

[Aphotic Phoenix]

1 in 100. Just look at that. There is normal, and there is abnormal. That's just the way it is. "Just don't be insulted when they quote research that shows a positive correlation between homophobic behavior and arousal when watching "gay" sex. " Why would I be insulted by biased propaganda? You are calling me homophobic, and secretly gay. Homophobia exists in a very small part of the population, these are the people who truly hate homosexuals. "Homophobia" as the word tends to be used is just a way into intimidating people from saying anything other than "homsexuality is awesome". I am not secretly gay, if I was what would stop me from acting on it? Nothing. I could go down to Castro any time I wanted, I could download gay porn any time I wanted. Straight people are not secretly gay.

A physical differentiation in 1 out of 100 is people is not exactly insignificant, and especially in comparison to the complexity of human psychology which is a fair bit more difficult to measure.

Furthermore, I was very careful when I chose the words "positive correlation" for a reason being that the study, as administered, only points to a pattern left to be interpreted by whomever wishes. The comment was directed towards anyone who decided to watch the video, less they forget that correlation does not equal causation, and if you'd like to point to a counter study I'll gladly read it.

You are seriously out of touch however if you think that there are there are no gay, bi, or curious individuals that do not keep that as a secret. Do you have any idea how many men who identify as "straight" attempt to pick up my bisexual male friends? (Just as a small example)

I'd continue this further, but alas, I must finish my paperwork...

*Edit* My apologies for furthering the derailment of this thread. Sometimes it's hard for me to stay out of arguments like this since psychology was my major, and gender/sexuality was a huge topic of interest for me. *shuts up*

[bluefooted]

Even though it's tempting, I'm going to stay out of this thread as it goes off the rails again. I'll just post one of my favorite studies, Adams et al, 1996:

The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.

[courtyard]

Color blind people aren't going around saying that it's great to be colorblind, they are accepted but not glorified. I disagree with all groups that try to spin reality. There are some deaf and autistic groups that try to present them as a seperate culture, but to me it's nonsense: one has something wrong with their ears, the other has something wrong with their brains. I wear glasses, my eyes don't work right, I don't say I belong to a myopic culture. Lets call a spade a spade.

Hey, armando. I've lost the plot a bit with this thread, but at the core you're saying that you specifically don't think there should be parades celebrating homosexuality because it is a defect and shouldn't be elevated to "separate culture" status, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong. If we use your glasses example, if people in the US had a history of being specifically persecuted and killed *because* they wore glasses *by* people who didn't wear glasses (a la Pol Pot/Khmer Rouge), and I happened upon you celebrating in a Myopia Parade, I don't wear glasses but I would clap and cheer you on or start marching with you. I wouldn't be celebrating the fact that we were different, but the fact that we finally had equal rights.

[Baron Impossible]

...and I happened upon you celebrating in a Myopia Parade, I don't wear glasses but I would clap and cheer you on or start marching with you.

Watch out for lamp-posts

[Katfayheirti]

I'm getting tired of this topic. Can we talk about abortion instead?

Really though, I think I've seen that the people who disagree with me will continue to hold on to their myopic opinions no matter how many sound and reasonable arguments to the contrary are presented to them. I could perhaps summon the energy to write about how I don't feel autism, or colour-blindness are 'defects' either, but I think I'll go spend my time working on my painting instead of engaging in this fruitless argument.

[Steph Laberis]

I'm getting tired of this topic. Can we talk about abortion instead?


Yeah, it's becoming pretty cyclical like most threads do on the topic. All someone has to do is bring nazis into it and I'll close the thread.

[Elwell]

Hey, armando. I've lost the plot a bit with this thread, but at the core you're saying that you specifically don't think there should be parades celebrating homosexuality because it is a defect and shouldn't be elevated to "separate culture" status, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong. If we use your glasses example, if people in the US had a history of being specifically persecuted and killed *because* they wore glasses *by* people who didn't wear glasses (a la Pol Pot/Khmer Rouge), and I happened upon you celebrating in a Myopia Parade, I don't wear glasses but I would clap and cheer you on or start marching with you. I wouldn't be celebrating the fact that we were different, but the fact that we finally had equal rights.
This is an excellent point.

[Rist]

The further away we go from individual rights, the closer we come to fascism.

[s.ketch]

The further away we go from individual rights, the closer we come to fascism.


I don't think this thread means what you think it means.

[Rist]

I don't think this thread means what you think it means.

It might not. :oneye:

[Aly Fell]

Ha ha. Please. We fight each other all the time because of our straightness. "You lookin at my woman?!" Guy's are always trying to prove their machoness. Helen of Troy "the face that launched a thousand battleships". In ancient battles, I believe it wasn't uncommon to kill all the men from the defeated village, but spare the women. To a certain extent fighting is good, mostly the one on one variety, it's just part of life. Life is pain.
Doesn't really matter what reasons people come up with to oppress each other, it's always wrong(probably, maybe there could be a case where it could be arguable? I admit I need to study history). Sexuality shouldn't be singled out.



I don't know whether you are being deliberately obtuse or what. But I shall repeat my point. Straight people rarely, if EVER suffer abuse because of their sexual orientation.THAT was my point! Gay people suffer abuse because they are gay. Can't be any clearer I think... Unless someone has EVER been part of a persecuted minority they have no fucking idea what it feels like to be finally accepted by 'society' (like justification is necessary!) on any level. That's why we have pride marches. That's why you get people dressed up to the nines shouting out how fucking proud they are to be gay. I get fed up to the teeth with people telling others who they are allowed to fuck. The only word they should ever be concerned about is CONSENT! Not: 'abnormal', 'irrelevant', 'defect' and 'undesirable'.

[Ilaekae]

If you're ever in doubt when making a decision on human rights, ask yourself, "What would the Nazis do?"


Say "Thank you," Steph... :)

[Steph Laberis]

Say "Thank you," Steph... :)

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4424/ohoq9.jpg

Thank you.