Problems with brushstrokes

[andymania]

I was watching demo dvds by Richard Schmid and Morgan Weistling and I was trying to emulate their brushtrokes and how they turn the form with these small tiles of color. My main problem is that when I try to paint a light value over a dark value it just disappears into the wetness. I seems as if their lights just sit over darks instead of getting lost in the wet paint.I have no idea how they paint dark into light and light into dark without it disappearing. I am using barely any medium and using the paint straight out of the tube. Maybe I need to really load the brush up and am painting not as thick as i think I am. I am using bristle hog brushes and am painting on Utrecht pre stretched belgian Linen canvas. Maybe because I am using Gamblin paints and i should maybe switch to something more buttery and stiff like windsor newton or old holland?? I even recently ordered the exact Claessens linen canvas that Morgan uses. I have no idea what I am doing wrong and how to stop making my lights and darks dissapearing into one another. This wet into wet alla prima is really frustrating.

[Shantih]

Maybe try not putting dark values where you want your light values in the first place?

[dose]

I don't think it's anything specific with your materials- rather probably a matter of experience with applying paint. If all it took to apply paint like Morgan Weistling was the right paint and canvas there would be a lot more Morgan Weistlings.

Try keeping your darks fairly thin relative to your lights (in general), and starting out thin and moving to thicker. I've found in alla prima painting you need to manage the thickness of your paint pretty carefully, especially if you're having trouble nailing down the drawing. If you're Morgan Weistling or Richard Schmid you probably have enough experience that you can put it down thick and be confident it's in the right place. Maybe that doesn't work for us mortals, who have to keep fudging our drawings as we paint.

Also, make sure your brush is clean before switching from dark to light paint, or use separate brushes.

[DavePalumbo]

I haven't seen the videos you're talking about, but from what I understand of Shmid's technique as described in Alla Prima, he tries to lay down the correct value/color/shape in the first stroke so that he doesn't need to go back over top. Trying to put light paint over wet darks is obviously going to be problematic. You'd do better to wipe out or scrape off that paint than mix into it.

What i would suggest is to keep your block-in very thin, almost like washes, and then try to be deliberate and precise when you lay on your heavier strokes. Thin with turps even, it'll make life easier when you start putting in heavier paint. The heavy paint on top should have minimal influence from the wet block-in if the block-in is super super thin. That's what I do in my figure paintings from my SB and it works well for me.

Regarding materials, I spent my first year in school using hog bristle brushes and hating life the whole time. Then I realized that I could use synthetics and blends and I've never touched a hog bristle since. Not saying this is the solution for everyone, but those things were nothing but frustrating for me. Bristles really demand that you work very thick, though i find I can get much better results keeping my paint more to the thin side. Heavy application, particularly if you're new to oils, generally just gets messy and muddy and frustrating in my opinion.

[J Wilson]

Maybe try not putting dark values where you want your light values in the first place?

This sounds like a watercolor approach, not an oil painting approach. It's not uncommon for oil painters to work dark to light. I started out painting in oils, and now even though I work mostly in digital, I still like to work dark to light.

As long as your initial applications of color are thin it shouldn't be a problem to start off with dark colors.

You might also consider how you prime your surface. Some gessos are a little more absorbent than others, or can be applied to get a little more tooth, and hold that initial color block in better.

[DavePalumbo]

It's not uncommon for oil painters to work dark to light

it's not the best approach for alla prima though. Lightening and darkening by a couple value steps is doable, but you'll never get your "whites" or "blacks" clean like they should be if they're mixing over top wet paint of a significantly different color, temperature, or value. Even over thin washes it'll dilute a little bit, but over pigment straight from the tube, it's going to get downright muddy

[Shantih]

I still start with a mid tone wash as a base, and put my darks in first, but the OP said he was using the paint almost straight out of the tube and was working alla prima, so while you can start off a lot darker than you could with watercolours I don't think it's a good idea to try and go alla prima with a load of thick, dark paint already put down where you know it's going to be lighter.

Obviously it's a different story if you're thinning your darks down a lot first, but I was going at it with the idea that the OP wasn't thinning his paints very much. You can paint alla prima with un-thinned paint, but you need to think more carefully about what tones you're putting where.

Your point about the surface is a good one though, I've started using primed greyboard as a cheap surface for practice pieces lately and it dries much, much faster than on canvas, so it's easier to layer up. I wouldn't advise this particular surface for anything you want to sell or keep for a long time, but it's good for practice.

[J Wilson]

That probably explains my experiences. When I was oil painting I would prime my own boards (sometimes illustration board, sometimes masonite panels) by spraying on layers of gesso with an airbrush (using Liquitex gesso which is thin, and cranking the psi on the airbrush). It gave me a great toothy surface and my block ins just would not move much at all if I didn't go overboard.

[andymania]

Ok Dave let me get this straight. So when Schmid or Weistling lay down their strokes, they lay them down side by side and maybe just slightly overlap them. So when painting in this style, I cant just apply a dead local color layer like the old masters and apply Schmid like strokes on top without the under wet layer effecting it at all. It sounds like I am trying to do the impossible. When you mean keep the darks thin, is that supposed to prevent the top thicker wet layers from mixing with the darks? Or are lights not supposed to be mixed on top of the darks in the first place?? I am a little confused as to what is the purpose of keeping darks thin..

[Noah Bradley]

Yeah, you're always going to have some mixing going on with wet paint underneath. If you absolutely must put some dark tones down to block things in, there's always the option of quickly going in with some acrylics and doing a burnt sienna wash or something. Then once that's try getting on with the oil painting. It'll give you a good foundation for your proportions and such and let you put down paint opaquely without fussing too much.

Richard Schmid, the fabulous show-off that he is, doesn't even need a block in (most of the time), and somehow manages to pull off perfect proportions and tremendous painting all at once. Darn his amazing skills. ;)

[Flake]

Regarding materials, I spent my first year in school using hog bristle brushes and hating life the whole time.
I'm pretty sure they were all our school shop actually sold..

Many years later, I got some synthetic rounds and they actually behaved like I'd want a brush to. \o/
They held lots of paint and had pointy ends!. Madness!

Crappy art school, I spit at thee..

[andymania]

Now this leads to my next question: I have read this great PDF document on Sargent's teachings on painting. He said that really load up your brushes with paint and really paint thickly. Now something clicked for a second.I was wondering why every time I paint and block in local colors and shapes with medium thickness and I use a large soft watercolor brush to smooth out edges and tones afterwards that this large soft brush really takes off lots of color when you blend, even if it is with a light touch. I guess I should paint even more thickly than usually to recompensate for the removal of color from blending with a clean soft brush. (this is why i probably see too much of the canvas tooth after Im done blending)

[andymania]

Also, I spray me drawing on the canvas with Krylon Crystal Clear before I paint. Would this effect my brushstroke at all? Am i ruining the canvas tooth when I apply it?

[arttorney]

I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think those old guys like Titian had any of that new fangled krylon stuff. Whether or not you are messing up the tooth of the ground, I think you are taking a step that is somehow unnecessary.

As to this: I am a little confused as to what is the purpose of keeping darks thin.
I can say that the amount of that dark paint that is there to get mixed in with your light paint is important when you are painting wet in wet in oils (caveat: I am a hog bristle loving painting nice and think kind of guy). If you are trying to control what you are doing, then step into the shallow end rather than the deep end. That is my summary of the purpose of keeping the darks thin, at least while blocking in early.

[sfa]

I am a little confused as to what is the purpose of keeping darks thin..

One reason for keeping darks thin is to help create the illusion of light striking a surface via the relative thickness of the paint.

Daniel Gerhartz uses this principle to great effect. He slams the lights with thick gobs of juicy paint, yet is careful to thin out the shadows by comparison, because light areas reflect more light (hence, more paint), and shadow areas reflect less light (hence, less paint).

By the way, pick up some Royal Langnickels (the same brand that Weistling and I believe also Schmid uses). The difference in handling between the hog bristles and those are huge. Like Dave, I found painting a frustrating affair until I switched over, and since then it's been nothing but a blast, even if the painting in the end turns out horrible. Just the feel of those brushes traveling on the canvas makes the act of painting an enjoyable affair for me.

Good luck.

[andymania]

sfa,
Which Langnickels? I went to their website and they have a lot of models. Any recommendations?

[sfa]

I personally like using their brights (5510) but Schmid, Weistling and Lipking swear by their flats (5590). I have sets of both. Keep in mind that the actual sizes of Langnickels are about as half as you would expect from a normal brush from say, Robert Simmons. For example, a size 20 Langnickel is about a size 10 Robert Simmons.

One other caveat about the Langnickels too - and Weistling and Lipking lament about this as well - they shed hairs often and stray hairs occasionally need to be picked off your canvas. Not a problem if you're just practicing, but it's something to be mindful of if you're intending to do finished gallery work with them.

Have fun.

[andymania]

SFA,

im looking at the site now. I noticed these are sable brushes. I thought those guys used stiff bristle brushes. But I will try em out. They are not too soft for thick paint?