Realism vs construction(a guide to choosing the right art education)

[hummel1dane]

okay, no bites. Do any of you have any experience/heard anything about SORA in chicago or Palette and Chisel?

no nothing.

[lena murray]

I highly recommend Jerusalem's Studio School summer program in Italy. This is organized by Israel Hirshberg, my husband's former professor from the Maryland Institute of Art. Aside from working from landscape, they usually do a lot of copying from the Renaissance frescoes.

http://jssitaly.wordpress.com/

[dose]

Slava Begidjanov is in his 60s and is a genius illustrator of the world's classics including Dante's Divine Comedy. His work is in major museums including the US Library of Congress. So, in a nutshell, he is probably one of the best draughtsmen alive today. His wife is much younger, also a Mukhina graduate, and a very successful book illustrator. I think she is currently working on Chaucer illustrations.

They recently moved to this castle in France and have organized this academy. The program on the website is a little bit vague, but I know what they can do, and what they can teach, so I can vouch for them 100%.


Oh, that's great news. I'm glad to hear they're doing well. I have so many great memories of Slava. Makes me smile just to think of him.

[SusanMart]

The paintings here are by kids of 12 - 14 years old. I'd like to give credit to these kids, so I want to include their names.

The first three by Sergei Holodnov, 14 year old. The fourth is by Eduard Abramyan, 14 year old, and the last by Igor Guskov, 14 year old.

wow! wow! wow!
The first 3 paintings must have been created by an Extremely talented kid!!!!
This is impressive!

Also, I do like your idea about online site for kids!!!!

[hummel1dane]

Hey all.

This evening I was at an introduction talk at the russian art academy located here in Florence as well as skt. petersburg.
The school looks very good and its run by very nice people.
I saw some beginning students plen-air landscapes, I think from a two weeks course, those were very nice, and I will see if I can post them here later.

Other than that there was a talk by their anatomy teacher, think he was called Alexi.
He talked about his own system of teaching anatomy. He graduated from the Repin some years back, but was never very happy with the way anatomy was taught there, so he started to build his own system based on Gottfried Bammes(the german guy).
In general he has a very structured approach to the human body, breaking it down into its parts and studying the 3d geometrical shapes. They use somewhat 30 points located on the body that students have to memorise(plus same points in symmetry)
He divided the study in three parts, one is a conceptual/theoretical approach, learning anatomy and structure proportion must be memorized, the second copying master drawings and studying the drawing style of the old masters(especially renaissance masters ,if in Florence, from the Uffizi) and third, drawing from the life model.
All that is done simultanously.
When drawing from the life model they use basic light setup similar to other schools, studying value and cast-shadows.

I think he's more conceptual than the general Repin graduate, talked a lot about Michelangelo, or Buonarote as he called him, how he used fixed points on the body to help locate the joints in space(that you can actually find in some of his drawings), and how he used specific body positions to increase movement and tension.

His plan is to build a three year diploma course in Florence, he said he liked it here so he's considering staying for a longer time. Usually he's only here for short periods.

All right that was pretty much what I remembered, some of it I might have misunderstood, so don't take my word for it.

If you are curious you can check their updated homepage, might contain some student work. But if its very good it's most likely a teacher work.

http://www.artac.org/photo

[shyamshriram]

DAMN! i wasn't aware about this TREASURE !!
Thanks a lot everyone for posting such incredible info and art ! One can learn a lot from these posts.

:yayca:

[hummel1dane]

All right, got a bunch of pictures from the Angel academy student show.

[hummel1dane]

Oh yes, sorry for the lame quality of the photos.
The one with the orange and metal thingy in the back is an instructor work.

[Konstruktion]

Wow.. I talked to Jered? if I remember correctly when visiting Florence, but I decided to go with the FAA. However, that there sure is some impressive work. Is there ever any collaborations between the schools in Florence? Shared exhibitions, shared teachers etc. Damn I just want this summer to end.

E: By the way sorry for the off topic. Perhaps PM is prefered.

[hummel1dane]

As far as I know there is no collaboration between the schools. But some students do go to lectures at the other schools.

You can post all your questions in this thread.

[JS Neo]

This thread has been pretty quiet recently. Thanks for reviving it ! Incredible works from angel academy. I appreciate the close-ups. U give us the opportunity to study the painting without leaving our computer seat :D

[JS Neo]

Many thread ago, lena mentioned about this drawing book by Mogilevtsev Vladimir. Seems like he has another book published last year on the topic of teaching drawing. Seems like a really good book for people self-learning drawing. Anybody has read this book?

http://art-index.org/objects/works/show/?OID=7i2i5gvf8zkz3pz0&AID=zyqj9nudw8zihvd2

[JS Neo]

Many thread ago, lena mentioned about this drawing book by Mogilevtsev Vladimir. Seems like he has another book published last year on the topic of teaching drawing. Seems like a really good book for people self-learning drawing. Anybody has read this book?

http://art-index.org/objects/works/show/?OID=7i2i5gvf8zkz3pz0&AID=zyqj9nudw8zihvd2

[mentler]

I will follow this thread again and jump in from time to time. I have been studying the Russian academies for several months with great interest. Of note is that the best schools emphasis construction as well as observation. I have also noted the size of their studies which are much larger than practiced at Ateliers in the USA. What appears to be a high degree of rendering is much rougher in real life. They have given themselves more space to record more information which in turn requires finding more information.
This is very evident in cast drawings which in the case Repin are done as an exercise to understand how light reveals form and not the rendering marathons that are practiced in other parts of the world.

[hummel1dane]

JS NEO -
I will try next year to also take photos from the florence academy excibition. They are much looser in their subjectmatter, more artistical, but downside is less focus on strict technique.
I havent seen the book you refer to but it looks good. I got myself another russian academy book I think by Nikolai Lee(if that was his name). I hope oneday we'll have an easier time ordering those none-english books. Also the german book "Die gestalt des menchen" by Gottfried Bammes is awesome. I often wonder what the text says, but its useful nevertheless.

Mentler -
Feel free to jump in as much as you'd like!

These here drawings are from the drawing academys half year term spring class 2010. Some of the better stuff is most likely done by the instructor, or students repeating the course. I think one has to study this method of drawing for some years to start understanding the rendering system, so in the beginning everything is kept very transparent, focusing only on form. Also cast-shadows is a no-no. Mm, I think students themselves start doing cast shadows again when they feel ready, not really sure.
(Only thing I remember from my own time was an angry russian voice saying - DON'T-DO- CAST-SHADOWS!!)

Oh yes, I can answer some technical questions about the method of teaching and some of the techniques, but if you want to go there please contact the school directly for practical questions.

They use anywhere from 30sec to 15 hours for model drawings, combined with bone-study. Yep the size of drawings are about A2(BIG!!)
The instructors draw directly on student drawings on a regular basis, that's part of the method.


http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_14_16489_201x530px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_17_16499_338x530px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_18_16509_355x530px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_19_16519_348x530px.jpg

http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_2_16399_171x530px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_21_16529_390x529px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_22_16539_390x526px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_23_16552_342x530px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_24_16562_387x530px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_25_16575_390x483px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_26_16585_390x457px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_27_16595_390x526px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_28_16605_390x503px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_29_16615_264x530px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_3_16419_377x530px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_30_16625_550x302px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_31_16635_390x511px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_33_16645_390x494px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_34_16655_384x530px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_36_16665_390x512px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_37_17001_381x530px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_38_17011_376x530px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_4_16429_356x530px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_40_17021_342x530px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_5_16439_550x282px.jpg
http://www.animwork.dk/medias/2010-06/tda_spring_2010_9_16449_309x530px.jpg

[hummel1dane]

Link to the school(Its in Viborg Denmark, just a bit north of germany)

http://www.animwork.dk/en/tda_semester_courses.asp

[JS Neo]

I posted it in the repin thraed but i guess i will post it here as well..

I just discovered this site with quite abit of info on the repin institute..
http://www.practicum.org/index.php

[Art_Addict]

Hello,

It has been a while since I contributed to this thread. I just wanted to post another selection of drawings by Ted Seth Jacobs as I did previously. In my opinion some of the most beautiful observational drawings I have seen from a contemporary artist. Hopefully you all enjoy them as much as I did. All pictures were taken by Gilles Crozemarie:

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[vaporz]

[QUOTE=hummel1dane;2327166]

The only thing I've heard about chinese students is that after so many years of hard discipline they end up with the ability to draw everything from life to minute details, fast and with perfect technique - but they have no imagination!
Is it true?QUOTE]

hi, I'm a first year art student from nanyang academy of fine arts in singapore. a few of my classmates came from china - china central academy of fine arts (中央美术学院); hubei institute of fine arts etc. they are technically very good, even better than the local teachers. their works start off stronger technically for sure, but after a while they do learn to develop their concepts and tap into their imagination. the same holds true for the koreans as well. in fact i learn more basic drawing from them than from some of my teachers.

here's a link to a korean website with some of their artworks:
http://artparks.wordpress.com/

and here's a link to some of my works from deviantart:
http://vaporz123.deviantart.com/

and another link to deviantart, she's studying for the entrance exam to the china central academy of fine arts:
http://curryq.deviantart.com/

enjoy =)

[Rasme]

Hi

I think many of you will find this site (http://www.practicum.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=113:2010-08-09-11-06-48&catid=10:prosmotr&Itemid=33) quite interesting, (if you don't know it already, that is)

It's a lot of photos from an exhibition at the Repin academy, and there's quite a few drawings and paintings at the bottom of the page.

hope all digs...

[lena murray]

hi guys,

I've been traveling all summer, so did not check the thread.

I am glad you've found the site www.practicum.org

Hopefully, there will be an English version at some point, it has tonns of useful information.

It is the official site of the Repin Academy, all articles are contributed by Repin graduates and teachers.

It is done in conjunction to an online program that they hope to launch by October 1.

Online courses in drawing, painting and composition involving webcam communication, chats with professors and so forth.

I've seen a test version, it looks great, it is not open to the public yet.

But, what do you think about all of this?

Also, I highly recommend anyone who wants to follow my posts regarding Repin and Bridgeview classes, seminars and etc, join Bridgeview School on Facebook.

Hope everyone is doing well.

[lena murray]

I have been getting questions from some of the readers here about the level of applicants.

Here are photos from this year's entrance exams to the architecture department.

These were posted shortly on www.practicum.org

They have grades on them, as you can see. I think the grading is from 1 to 100.

I'd say the lowest you need to get is in the 80s to get in probably, not sure.

[lena murray]

here are pictures from a friend of mine, some are also from the exam and some are right before the exam, these are from two years ago. She was applying to the graphics department (printmaking and illustration). That's why watercolors.

I don't have her portrait and figure drawing from the exam, unfortunately, but her paintings were better, and she got better grades on them.

[Lawrence Humphrey]

At

http://www.practicum.org/index.php

one discovers the amazingly brilliant work of Hameed Savkooyev (in the right hand column, 3rd one down.)

(If my transliteration from the Cyrillic alphabet is not right could you give us the correct spelling in English Lena? Thanks.)

[lena murray]

This is how I would spell his name. Yes, he is one of the Repin Academy younger professors.

[lena murray]

I took liberty to copy those from practicum.org

These are drawings done by Korean students. I don't know where they studied, but it looks to me they studied with someone who had some kind of Soviet education, judging by the style.

[lena murray]

These are first year assignments at Mukhina, basic geometric shapes. Done with Professor Zaitsev. What they call "skvoznoe risovanie" means literally "see through" drawing.

[Lawrence Humphrey]

Thanks Lena. Afterwards I realized that all I had to do was copy the Cyrillic letters and paste them into Google images to get a pile more of his paintings. They remind me somewhat of Odd Nerdrum's strange world.

I wonder if Hamid Savkuev would have been accepted into the Repin Academy as a student. (something tells me no, not if he had been painting like that)

[The~Tramp]

I go to a school that primarily teaches a "realism" approach and have been trying to supplement my education by reading up on construction. So Im glad this thread was created because I have not seen this distinction between the two different teaching methods made as clear anywhere else. Anyway, I ordered from http://4-art.org last week. I should get my books soon. Their customer service is great. I am excited about the english translation of the drawing manual. I have been reading Bridgeman, Hogarth and I just found a pdf of Gottfried Bammes, Die Gestalt DES Menschen. They have all been very helpful.

[hummel1dane]

The~Tramp -
I think I know the Bammes pdf you are refereing to, it's a cut down version of his big book right? I have both and I still recommend the big one, even though it's all in german. But the text isn't that important, pictures speak for themselves.

I really recommend everything by Robert Beverly Hale, there are two books, drawing lessons from the great masters and master class in figure drawing, and 10 video lectures on anatomy. Those video lectures on anatomy is the most clear and precise anatomy training for artists I have ever seen, despite their awful video and audio quality. Robert Beverly Hale actually manages to make figure-anatomy not just interesting but fun!
And his system of memorizing the proportions and anatomy of an average figure is just damn useful!
I always wondered how it was possible to remember so many muscles, but simply by grouping them together in terms of their function it gets so much easier!

I'm glad you like this thread, in my own experience art education gets too confusing without such a distinction.

Lena - Thank you for posting the Mukhina drawings. Well, I honestly say don't bother with that place now, go to the drawing academy in Viborg Denmark instead if you want to learn "the Mukhina" system. The reason seems to be that in russia they now only teach a more limited technical approach void of expression as well as rendering.
But then again, the sculpture department at the Mukhina might still be worth it, if you have time Lena could you post work from that department?

These two drawings shows very clearly first and second step in the Mukhina method

This one Lena just posted, you'll have this construction method beat into your head with a stick!

http://conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1074267&stc=1&d=1286022377

But with time you could end up doing something like this, done by 1year drawing student at Viborg. (Though I should add that the guy that did this is now working as a teacher at the place, so it's far from normal being able to draw like this in just a year.)

http://conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=701724&stc=1&d=1245354286

[hummel1dane]

martinmchan - I don't quite follow, what paintings are you refering to? Who is mistaking realism for photo-realism?

[Elwell]

martinmchan - I don't quite follow, what paintings are you refering to? Who is mistaking realism for photo-realism?
Pay no mind, just a spammer.

[The~Tramp]

Correction- the pdf I found is Wir Zeichnen Den Mensche, 312 pages. I would like his big book but I will not pay the outrageous price being asked for it.( $334.56, for a book that I cannot even read....come on!) If I find a pdf for that one I will share.

Link (upload 1 pdf to download) :
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24690639/Gottfried-Bammes-Wir-Zeichnen-Den-Menschen

hummel1dane -

I have both Robert Beverly Hale books. I need to go back and actually read them. My teacher has the hale dvd's and I need to go back and watch them again too. I love how he ends his lectures with a poem. That drawing stick he uses is rather impressive I must say.

One of many important passages:

"Drawing, like so many other things, is a matter of being able to think of several things at once. Since the conscious mind seems to be able to think about only one thing at a time, the subconscious mind must take care of a good deal when we draw. So the process of learning to draw demands that we acquaint the subconscious mind with a certain amount of material." Drawing Lessons from the Great Masters pg13.

[hummel1dane]

I ordered the big book about 5 years ago from amazon.de, that was "only" around 120$ but it might be out of stock atm. I think you'd be ok without it.

Thanks for the link, I'll include it in the main page.

Yep Robert Beverly Hale is the Man!

[Rasme]

Hi

I did a little conceptmap, to try an sort things out.
Thought You'd might be interested.
A big version can be downloaded here (http://rasmusaagaard.deviantart.com/#/d3115ws)
Direct link (http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/291/6/7/realistic_visual_arts_by_rasmusaagaard-d3115ws.jpg)

www.rasme.dk
www.rasme.blogspot.com
www.ordspild.blogspot.com

[hummel1dane]

Thanks Rasme - It's a good idea, but also very difficult!


They sometimes use planes after building the shadowshape at 2nd year here at Angels, I think they use it from the beginning at Florence academy. Also the use of value changes alot from project to project - in pencil where the scale is smaller, usually all highlight is avoided, to get a better 3d feel.
I would actually say Caravaggio is the number one inspiration for academies like Angel and Florence. They also have a fondness for Velazquez at Angel

I wouldn't say one part is finished and then moving on to the next, usually it's one step that is finished, the first would be a basic figure outlining(called a construct) then next is finding all the shadowshapes and grouping them together in a semi-dark value, and then a sort of illusionistic blending called big form modeling(at Angel). I've heard they stick a bit looser to the progressive steps at Florence academy, at Angel they take them VERY seriously. But much of the quality comes from setting up a very strict value seperation, they really push the values as much as possible, and put effort into grouping them.
Having values under control is insanely difficult because of the way our eye and mind judges value localy. So you can have one area thats a number 7 dark - then another area at the other end of the paper that appears to be exactly like it but is only a 5 dark. If one is not aware of this problem then the end result will not be very rich in value, and the illusionistic effect is weakened.
The exact same problem arises when moving into paint, because also colour and chroma is judged localy. I think for that reason the beginning painter starts with only very few colours, and then gradually expands the palette.

That value approach is notably different from how they paint at the Repin.

One important thing is to note the big difference between impressionists using strong colour effects and traditionalists using primarily value.
For that reason I would say that in painting Angel and Florence academy and the likes are closer to the high-renaissance and later periods, while Repin in general has a looser more impressionistic way of painting.

The tradition of starting with values in charcoal before moving on to paint is from the renaissance. They did charcoal cartoons back then, finished full-size version in black and white, and then transfered this to canvas.

In the development of realism in painting Leonardo is one of the most important painters to study, after him it's probably Caravaggio.
Leonardo studied the effect of coloured shadows and reflected light, as well as the soft foggy shadows called sfumato. One has to understand and control values like a bad-ass to be able to do what Leonardo did.
I think Caravaggio was the first to paint the refractions from glass.

One last thing about Angel academy - it's actually not all about realism, Micheal John Angel knows an awful lot about composition, especially colour and shape composition. He gives awesome lectures mostly about composition, and one can study composition personally with him at the 4th year.

This painting is by one of his favorite artists Hans Holbein. MJA talks a lot about this design system - how one has to design the background and the torso so that the face will be in focus.
http://www.artrenewal.org/artwork/857/857/5301/portrait_of_bonifacius_amerbach-large.jpg

[lena murray]

Sorry, I am getting away from the subject, but I just got this email from Erik, a Danish student who is now at the Repin Academy prep course. Sorry, if it looks like I am bragging, but frankly his email made my day. I was happy to know that I had something to do with this.

Hi Lena,

I just wanted to tell you that I'm in St. Petersburg right now, studying at the Repin Academy! The dream that I've had for over 1½ year has finally come true. My first day of school started today (well, actually it started last Friday, but I only did a few thumbnails then). We started with painting a still life for a few hours, then we drew an antique bust, and finally we had Russian. No compositions yet, but I guess it will come sooner or later. The language is still a major obstacle, but it's probably only a matter of time before I will overcome it.
Aside from the two danish girls that you also helped, I haven't seen any other westerners on the preliminary course. All the other participants are chinese (and one Ukranian girl). Not that it surprises me (after all, you wrote about it on conceptart.com). It surprises me, though, that there aren't any more westerners on the course, after all the publicity it got on Conceptart.com. But I guess that the idea of going to Russia scares many westerners. But what do I know?

Anyway, I just wanted to tell you that I really appreciate all the help I've gotten from you and all the questions you've answered. Without you I wouldn't even be here.

Thank you :-)

[hummel1dane]

Thanks Lena! Great to hear :D

All right, this Caravaggio painting shows the light-effect I was talking about, I think the correct name is caustics. It's the result of light being bend(refracted) in glass.
Look at the water-bottle to the left, the light effect it creates on the table.

http://www.artrenewal.org/artwork/589/589/3758/supper_at_emmaus-large.jpg

[Book Guru]

Hi Everyone!

First of all, it just occured to me that I've been a part of a wonderful group in Russian Facebook - http://vkontakte.ru/club16966189 (http://vkontakte.ru/club16966189) - and I didn't share it here yet.
It's a part of the art portal www.practicum.org (http://www.practicum.org), which has been mentioned on CA many times, but only with many more images and very hot discussions.

You need to register there first. Yeah... it's in Russian (registration is available in English), but it's still worth of visiting. Click on the "Albums" part (check translation in Google) - there are literally thousands of images there - including the artworks made by professors of Repin Institute, as well as by their students. There are also albums by beginners, asking for advice, but I guess you'll easily see the difference and would know what album to ignore and what to investigate.

Also, there are many discussions and albums on art schools, including... well, yess, the Angel's. :)) They discuss what's done correctly and what's wrongfully at those schools in regards of teaching academic art.

In any case, this is a very valuable source of information and I'd love to share it with you all.

A bit of self-promotion -
The book that've been discussed here several times, Fundamentals of Drawing by V. A. Mogilevtsev (http://4-art.org/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&category_id=6&product_id=657) - now available in English in PDF format.

Best regards to all!

Kat (that's short for Book Guru) :))

A couple of pages for you to enjoy:

[hummel1dane]

Thank you so much Kat
I checked the link, I suggest people sign up even if its russian facebook, it's not difficult. There are hundres and hundreds of cool art drawings/paintings from past and present. Shame that the discussions doesn't seem to be translated, I would be very curious about their view on western art education.

I should mention that one of the artists you'd find work of in that group is actually teaching now here in Florence.
Sergey Chubirko
http://www.artac.org/faculty/chubirko/
The prices of that academy is a lot less than Florence and Angel academy, but they don't teach painting in the same (french)way.
I've talked with a couple of students and as far as the figure drawing is concerned they were more than satisfied.
They have an evening drawing/anatomy program that's very popular among Angel students.

[hummel1dane]

Found an online version of Grays anatomy(old one listed stopped working).
For some reason wikipedia has removed a lot of their illustrations from Grays anatomy and replaced them with some strange photoshop mess. So if you want to study the origin and insertion of muscles then just follow this link
http://www.bartleby.com/107/
and you can find the best illustrations available. This is the book that Robert Beverly Hale recommends.

[Book Guru]

Hummel1dane, thank you for visiting it and for your comments.

I truly am a follower of "a picture worth a thousands words". So no matter what language, they have hundreds, if not thousands of very valuable images there. Including those that could be used for copying (Rembrandt, Michelangelo, etc)

Yes, I understand your wish to know what they say about other schools. But when you're in the album with pics, you can always copy text and translate it in Google or smth.
Or post it here, I'll translate! :)

The advantage of Practicum.org (http://www.practicum.org) is that it has more of academic approach (comparing to vKontakte.ru (http://vkontakte.ru/club16966189) where any person can join/post), and the information there is posted/updated almost on daily basis.
My suggestion is to always check the very bottom of Practicum, all the links to new articles usually appear right there.
(btw, translation button is also at the bottom.. a bit inconvenient, but better than nothing)

There is a very good new article on Academie Julian (http://www.practicum.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=124%3A2010-10-25-17-55-02&catid=32%3A2010-01-11-14-59-13&Itemid=38) - I recommend to take a look... even without translation you'll enjoy the images. :)

[Book Guru]

Hi, Hummel1dane,

Didn't check this thread for a while...
I forgot to mention that Chubirko is one of former students of Prof. Mogilevtsev.
I guess, he moved to Florence soon after his graduation.

His, as well as other students' works from Prof.Mogilevtsev workshop are in the album that I've mentioned already, "Sketches and Academic Drawing (http://4-art.org/products-virtuemart-component?page=shop.product_details&category_id=6&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=630)".

Here is a couple of Chubirko's works from there:

[dorian]

still have to go through most of this thread but thank you so much everybody who contributed!

life's unexpected turns allowed me to study with Sergey Chubirko for the last month and it's been fantastic...!
In January Aleksey Bakhtin is coming to Florence for an Anatomy and Construction course which sounds very interesting as well.

Just getting more into the world of Russian drawing and painting, thank you for all the information Lena, Katerina, Hans, Jonas, ..., ...!!

So much to learn :)

Here's a ~15h pencil portrait I just finished during the month with Chubirko - challening, I have to really reorganize my neural pathways and hope to improve my anatomical and structural understanding!

http://www.dorian-iten.com/images/dorian-artac-stefano-s.jpg

PS.
Bakhtin:
http://www.artac.org/_content/photos/2_43oloO.jpg
http://www.artac.org/_content/photos/2_33GWbE.jpg

[Book Guru]

At

http://www.practicum.org/index.php

one discovers the amazingly brilliant work of Hameed Savkooyev (in the right hand column, 3rd one down.)

(If my transliteration from the Cyrillic alphabet is not right could you give us the correct spelling in English Lena? Thanks.)

Lawrence, his name is spelled Khamid Savkuev, and he is teaching painting at our Academy. This guy really rocks.
Imagine, he graduated from the Painting faculty, but later on got interested in sculpture, and done so well that recently his entire regional collection was acquired by the State Russian Museum (the one that exhibits Filonov, Malevich, Repin, and all our academicians).

I saw his works first time back in 2004, at his workshop, was really amazed, like his talent since then.

[Book Guru]

Hi Dorian!

Didn't see your post, was reading old articles here (as I didn't cover all the pages yet), just answered the one which seems to be several months old. :)
I see you're really progressing... as we say, "moving in the right directions".
I've already asked one Academy graduate about your drawing (I'm with laptop) - he said he'd receive a solid "4" grade for this work (out of 5), which is a very high grade, in case you don't know. /I can post his comments about your work, if you'd like./

Aleksei Bakhtin - is he from prep courses? I didn't hear his name yet.

[Book Guru]

And one more post -

About new information on Practicum.org art portal.
Earlier, I've mentioned about new article on Academie Julian, published there about a month ago.

Now, only a couple of days ago, they published two more increadible historical articles, this time on two great European schools -
- Anton Azbe (http://www.practicum.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=132:2010-11-09-23-18-55&catid=32:2010-01-11-14-59-13) in Germany, and

- Fernand Cormon (http://www.practicum.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=131:cormon&catid=32:2010-01-11-14-59-13) - the place where both Van Gogh and Toulouse Lautrec had been studying (it's more was like a workshop rather than a real school, later will be known as "Atelier Cormon").

Again, the translation option is almost at the bottom of that site, in the left. I very much recommend to check both links, as it shows other branches of the same academic system that were used by the Russian Art Academy in St.Petersburg.

P.S. for those who like to see pictures only, they both have many images! :)

[dorian]

Thank you Katerina! I would love to hear the comments! Not sure if that is too off topic for this thread, you can also PM or email if you like!
I expect the main criticism is "no real understanding of the structure of the head" =)

Not sure what Bakhtin's position is, I'll let you know when I find out.

PS. great articles, didn't know about Azbe before, some really nice work!

[setsuna801]

I would really like to know a bit more in detail advantages and disadvantage of the new york academy of art school from students who went and are going there also. Because for the kind of money your paying it as to be quality education wathever the system that they are teaching. and the exposure as to be really good to in job prospect because of how much it costs?

[lena murray]

All I know is that while they are paying thousands of dollars to the New York Academy, the students come to our modest studio in the evening (Bridgeview School) to learn to draw. They also go to the Art Students League to study with better artists. It does not make sense if it were such a great school. There are not many colleges in the U.S. that teach drawing, painting or sculpture in a serious way. But, having said that, I would recommend Pennsylvania Academy in Philadelphia before I would recommend the New York Academy. At least they have a 4 year BFA program with two years of foundation classes taught by very good practicing artists. New York Academy accepts pretty much anyone who wants to pay.

[lena murray]

If any of you are on FaceBook, I've started a new resource page for practicing artists.

I've compiled and will keep adding albums with helpful references for everyone on a variety of subjects (anatomy, plein aire studies, composition work etc)..It's based on my own learning experience at the Repin Academy and working every day in my studio.

Here it is http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/Artists-to-Learn-from/143770632347726

Please feel free to join. Also, if anyone wants to start any discussion there, you are welcome to do so.

[Eew]

Here is a link to the blog of David Apatoff. In this post he shows some work of Valentin Serov:VALENTIN SEROV (http://illustrationart.blogspot.com/2010/11/valentin-serov.html)
and from the same blog a post about Repin and has some interesting text too.
Repin (http://illustrationart.blogspot.com/2007/09/repin.html)

I dont know if those were posted before or not but the post about Repin has some interesting things to read.

[Book Guru]

Thank you, Eew!

I'm always happy to see other enthusiasts of Russian art school (I don't mean the Academy only, I mean in general).

Two excellent points there:

"When I wandered into the Russian Museum in St. Petersburg, I was astonished at the number of brilliant artists lining the walls who were never mentioned in my art history books (including abstract expressionist work by Malevich several decades before abstract expressionism was "invented" in New York)." (by Donald Pittenger)

"In the last 100+ years narrative painting has been under attack, proper figure drawing, and traditional drawing practices are marginalized. That is also why "our day" doesn't see the kind of work produced in the 19th century." (by Amy June Bates)

(And I'm really glad this was said by not Russian people, so no one can accuse them of being biased! :) )

Though the blog's owner, David Apatoff, sometimes really lacks a good knowledge of the subject he's opening for discussion... E.g., he puts Repin and Serov under "astonishing Renaissance in Russia", while comparing them to... Russian religious painting - icons! - "For centuries, Russian artists had manufactured religious icons to suit the rigid specifications of church dogma." .... "Russian artists went out of their way to avoid accurate, representational images." ... "But starting in the 19th century, there was a period of sunlight and fresh air which inspired a flurry of cultural activity in Russia" .... "to shake off the dust and produce world class artwork"... %)

Any Russian art historian would have a hard time keeping a straight face reading all that.
Interestingly, all above was said in order to emphasize the importance of such artists as Repin and Serov, but Mr. Apatoff obviously needs to get more familiar with the subject prior to publishing it in his blog. :)

[Eew]

''narrative painting has been under attack, proper figure drawing, and traditional drawing practices are marginalized''

I think this is very important. How i see it in the context of choosing the right school/realism vs construction is that no matter what school you choose to learn representative/realistic art, you learn a skill(a set of tools) that allow you to do just that. The important thing in my opinion is what you do with that skill, that can make you relevant today as an artist(or make your art relevant).
I am being intrigued by art that expands my understanding about the world. Art that makes me think and see in ways i didnt before. That is why Greenbergs comments on Repin are just bullshit because i can learn from Repin and from Duchamp(yes, just a random example:) ). I would be learning their look on the world and that can only benefit me in my own evolution as a human.
I also dont understand people who not only defend traditional art but also atack everything new and different. For me they are no better then people who do the opposite.
But i think people are used to think that everything they dont understand is bad. It makes day to day life much easier.
I am getting way off topic here so i will stop now. :)

Any Russian art historian would have a hard time keeping a straight face reading all that.

Yes but it is still the best, ''twitter format'' introduction to russian art for infidels like me. :)

[Book Guru]

Eew,

Good saying!

Only one comment.
In regards of "I also dont understand people who not only defend traditional art but also atack everything new and different." -

You have to remember, I'm the one defending Fine Arts. :)
So to me something that is called "cool" (which is the most used word nowadays in so-called contemporary art) is not exactly what can be called fine art, no matter how new or innovative it is. Installations, abstractions, comics, etc - they're ok, but they exist in a kind of different art world.

That's why you won't see anything like that in our Academy. If they teach or allow any "innovations" during studying there, that will be the end of Academy. Yes, this can be argued, but... no one there will listen to your arguments by default. After the graduation you can go as wild as your imagination goes, but you have to wait for 6 years for that. :)

[Eew]

Ofcourse, thats why people call it abstract art, performance art, etc... Everything has its place. Atleast that is how i see it.
You know, even i dont know a thing about academy(only thrue internet), i wouldnt like it if they would start doing character design for games or something.

''After the graduation you can go as wild as your imagination goes, but you have to wait for 6 years for that.''

That was exactly my point in my last post.

The reality atleast in Belgium is that if you want to learn more traditional set of skills like drawing realistic, you are on your own. Most teachers who give nude drawing CAN'T draw. I know an academy in a city Ghent, where in the sixties they destroyed most of the casts as a way to protest or something like that and anyone who has a master in art, even if he did instalations for 4 years, he/she can give drawing classes. Where is the logic in that ? So even when none of the teaching staff thinks that those ''traditional'' skills are important the curiculum still has 3 years of drawing from a model and no one to teach it properly. So, again i do agree with you that the academy should stay the way it is. :)However, i am glad you guys have interwebs now !

[hummel1dane]

Take a look at this, pretty amazing. But be warned, it's also highly addictive :D

http://www.googleartproject.com/

Enjoy...

[Book Guru]

hummel1dane,

Yeah.... Thank you, I'm there for the last 72 hours.
I don't know how long it's alive, but I've got this link from our partner a couple of days ago.
Two sleepless nights is a result of it. :)

To see my favorite Rembrandt in such detail!! I'm still amazed.
Highly recommend this to everyone. (but don't blame me for this later!)

[lena murray]

I know it's a long shot, but if anyone is in the US at the time, we will be having a week-long Figure Drawing Workshop at the Bridgeview School March 21-25. Here is a link with more details

http://www.academicart.com/bridgeview/art-schools/new-york/workshops-at-new-york-art-schools.htm

It will be taught by one of our Bridgeview instructors Harout Simonian using the same methodology of structural diagrams as done by professor Kurkov of the Repin Academy (one of my earlier posts in this thread). Harout Simonian studied as a sculptor in Armenia, so he has a great understanding of anatomy and human form. You can see some of the work done by New York City's high school students who just began studying with him this year here www.academicart.com/blog.htm

This workshop might be perfect for those of you who need some figure drawings for your Repin prep course portfolio.

[lena murray]

I came across this very witted, perhaps somewhat too direct to a western ear statement by Efim Repin (the guy who started www.practicum.org) and I debated whether I should post it. It referred to a drawing similar to many that come out of these "classical" ateliers, you all know the kind, we've discussed those here at length. But, I think this is so well put that it definitely deserves attention and it is directly related to the subject of this discussion.

"I have seen enough of these sculpey-made western-style humanoids. Once again – they have completely lost the culture of the figure, reducing everything to formal naturalism. By copying from lithographs, ala “old masters” they do not realize that from this strain of apes a human being will never emerge. They don’t have anyone there who can explain to them in their native English tongue that this chewing gum has long been spat in the last century. But they persevere to pick it up and chew it again, trying to find new and unforgettable taste."
- by Efim Repin, a Repin Academy graduate, although his name might be a nickname.

[Wraven]

Hello guys...

Hate to spoil the Russian party, :P
the artwork is outstanding and actually makes me wonder...
I mean I have never heard about an academy or a university that is currently at the level of Repin institute in Italy.

I look to Accademia di Belle Arti Firenze
Academy of Fine Arts of Bologna
Brera Academy in Milan

and can't believe that these academies have faded, they are of the first academies founded in Europe.

So, if anybody have an idea of the current art level of students that graduate of these academies, or links to their artworks
also the current level of the faculty members and their styles, please you are welcome...

[Ramon Hurtado]

Hey guys, I've been out for awhile but I'm bringing some goodies!!

Here's a selection of academic nudes from various schools, mostly from the 19th century.

Spanish Academic
http://www.fernandoduran.com/images/subastas/360/hd/7.jpg
http://www.fernandoduran.com/images/subastas/360/hd/16.jpg
http://www.fernandoduran.com/images/subastas/360/hd/18.jpg
http://www.fernandoduran.com/images/subastas/360/hd/17.jpg

Picasso
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aM4NHytI/AAAAAAAABpw/6lK6MzkKVJE/s800/Picasso%20Academies.jpg

Italian Academic
Giacomo Favretto
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1l70D2f-I/AAAAAAAABq0/u6vRggeM0no/s800/favretto-giacomo-1849-1887-ita-standing-male-nude-1774060.jpg

American and French

the master Cabanel
http://www.christies.com/lotfinderimages/d13125/d1312529x.jpg

Kenyon Cox

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aJuwEulI/AAAAAAAABok/0WIAnTrIvtU/s800/154293-Kenyon_Cox_-_004_ul.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aMNiRfzI/AAAAAAAABpg/tnUky3NMT8E/s800/Kenyon%20Cox%2C%20Academy%20Study%2C%20Male%20Nude %2C%20c.%201877.jpg

Ed Pothast
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aKE8oG7I/AAAAAAAABow/tZRtc_oyAls/s800/edward%20henry%20potthast.jpg

Emile Friant
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aKZuOulI/AAAAAAAABo8/OsYrJ7TjOsA/s800/Emile%20Friant%20%28French%2C%201863-1932%29-.jpg

Gleyre
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aLH_n-_I/AAAAAAAABpE/dxCPeUZs4EU/s800/gleyre9.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aK8GyrDI/AAAAAAAABpI/1ntryUFzgfI/s800/gleyre8.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aLNltD1I/AAAAAAAABpQ/-JpcjZdfK0w/s800/gleyre27.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aKrqjwqI/AAAAAAAABpA/Cyafe2zMlNQ/s800/gleyre%20study%20for%20the%20hercules2.jpg

Flandrin
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aLrLCxKI/AAAAAAAABpU/8ff9FIgM-J8/s800/Hippolyte%20Flandrin%20-%20Academy%20Study.jpg

Ingres

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aMPHdR-I/AAAAAAAABpo/w0nSNP8nJ8w/s800/ingress1.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aLqlcvYI/AAAAAAAABpc/5iM8YzWG2os/s800/ingres134.jpg

From Gerome's class

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aNCn0MPI/AAAAAAAABp8/p_a0noAs6rs/s800/Soubrenie%20Francois%20-%20Le%20Remouler.JPG

George DeForest Brush at Gerome's (he actually named his kid after him)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1mqJoZ7LI/AAAAAAAABsU/KebPnXpKaH0/s800/george%20deforest%20brush%201872.jpg

Miscellaneous

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aMfT4ZTI/AAAAAAAABps/spjQX3d9voU/s800/Mitrecey%20Maurice-Theodore%20-%20Half%20Nude%20Model.%201893.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aNY3lr5I/AAAAAAAABqM/hblhF1iNipQ/s800/Studies%20of%20Jesus%20Among%20the%20Doctors.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aKHYY9yI/AAAAAAAABo0/f-2UL5Egi4U/s800/De%20Connick%20Pierre-Louis-Joseph%20-%20Half%20Nude%20Model.%201854.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aKVTHuaI/AAAAAAAABo4/wQiQl2V3-bA/s800/Garnier%20Arsene%20Jules%20-%20Half%20Nude%20Model.%201871.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aJicGziI/AAAAAAAABoo/BKBG9FQjzDs/s800/Academic%20Nude.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aKN9v01I/AAAAAAAABos/zJHGwtjbD18/s800/Comerre%20Leon-Francois%20-%20Half%20Nude%20Model.%201872.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aJi1wa0I/AAAAAAAABog/Sj-Hjanfzus/s800/Academie%20d%27Homme.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aLUUnRwI/AAAAAAAABpM/YL5nUUQduSE/s800/Haskell%2C%20Ida%20C.%2C%201861-1932.%20North%20Academic%20Center%2C%20Cohen%20Lib rary%20Archives%20%26%20Special%20Collections.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aNMeYe8I/AAAAAAAABp0/26qP0nPksMM/s800/Science%20Instructing%20Industry.%20Nude%20Study.j pg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aMO7pA5I/AAAAAAAABpk/UEQG8cTlhjQ/s800/Lavalley%20Alexandre-Claude-Louis%20-%20Half%20Nude%20Model.%201887.JPG

Belgian (I think)
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_ZO_4VGSF3ws/TZ1aMxW08nI/AAAAAAAABp4/eY0S_7SY-uM/s800/Nude%20african%20study.jpg

I'll post more soon. A lot can be found at this wonderful blog
http://academicnudes19thcentury.blogspot.com/?zx=c5d91821e0801de

[Ramon Hurtado]

By the way, my friend Lamb (also Vilppu student) and I just released an ebook of our drawings!

We're offering to anyone who donates at least $10 to our campaign on Indiegogo. All proceeds go to help us move to Virginia and study painting under Robert Liberace (http://www.robertliberace.com/figurePaintings/gallery.htm)

The ebook features really high res images so you can see how each drawing was made. Our approach is constructive, but we try to integrate that framework into more naturalistic work.

Personally, I'm trying to create drawings that show a thorough understanding of structure (construction), but at the same time feel natural and dynamic.

Here are some sample pages!

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e155/panchosimpson/blogposts/opt/book.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e155/panchosimpson/blogposts/opt/sample1.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e155/panchosimpson/blogposts/opt/sample2.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e155/panchosimpson/blogposts/opt/sample3.jpg

For more info, check out the link on my sig, or PM me.

We also have a new blog at http://partnersinpaint.blogspot.com/

Thanks!

-Ramon

PS. I hope I'm not out of line for posting this, I just feel that our book would be a helpful educational aid.

[Darshu]

I've been following this amazing thread for a while and want to thank you all for the information being delivered here, which has been of great value for me and, I believe, for everyone following it as well. To know there are great academies out there still pursuing the old masters is both comforting and encouraging.

The same couldn't be said about Brazil, unfortunately (though I know it's not different elsewhere for the most part). Our school of fine arts hasn't had a great tradition to begin with but at its roots it has been closely related to that of the french academies, with even some great students studying under Cabanel and Bouguereau.

I'd like to share with you some of the works of these, our masters of old, that still remain, forgotten in our school's museum, mistreated and neglected, including a painting which is believed to be a Quentin Matsys' and others of the XV century of which the authorship remain unknown.

[Book Guru]

Darshu,

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

Unbelievable, you have these drawings at your school's museum??
I've never seen anything from Brazil related to academic drawings. All these drawings are really nice, some are just outstanding. But it really hurts to hear they're "mistreated and neglected".

And the painting!! Jesus, it's beautiful!!

What is your most known school as of today? Does anyone at least tries to teach academic traditions there?

//I'll send the link to our partners at Practicum.org, I'm sure they'll appreciate it as much as I do.//

Thank you again. Just love it.

[Darshu]

Guru,

I'm glad that you like them. I do think too that some of the drawings are just amazing, specially Rodolfo Amoedo's. And they're really much better live than on these poor photographs I took since the museum doesn't even have a Digital Catalog.

These are remnants of the drawings done at the academy, the museum only holds work from their former students and only those performed while they were studying there. Some were made in Brazil and some while they were in Paris after they won the prix to study at the french academy. There are paintings also, I could post a few here if you like, though none of them became really great painters in my opinion.

The main school is today called the School of Fine arts, which once was the Imperial Academy of Fine Arts founded in 1822, later National Academy of Fine arts and then finally School of Fine arts. In portuguese it would be Escola Nacional de Belas Artes.

Academic training is pretty much dead, and completely ignored. No one knows how to do anything anymore, and don't really care (the contemporary approach has taken over 90% of the teachers and students) except printmaking teachers, one of Lithography, Kazuo Iha, and one of relief printing, Marcos Varella. No sculptors or painters, even though the courses still exist.

This is the main reason why the museum, which is open for everyone, on the 7th floor, is pretty much empty and unknown to most students. If you were to tell a student of painting that there was an original Quentin Matsys on their very museum, most of them would either not know who Quentin Matsys was, and even if they had heard about him, which is highly unlikely, they would not care.

What truly is sad though is the way these works are being handled by the museum itself. They have been left to rot until 2-3 years ago when the museum was reformed. Before that, all those drawings and paintings, including the 15th century ones were hiding in a dark room, with a leaking ceiling. Many of the paintings being restored today were destroyed during this period, which might have lasted 10-15 years, maybe more.

I study life drawing with a former teacher and student of the school, his name is Lydio Bandeira de Mello. He is, as far as I know, the only remnant of the academics, even though he is pretty modern compared to the ones I've showed you drawings of. He knows how things were done in the academy, but due to his age (83 now) he doesn't remember much of the technique, and since he didn't really have to follow the academics as they were dying when he attended the school, he doesn't really care much about it. He does prize a good drawing above everything and he is a great draftsman, one of the finest I know. His paintings are beautiful, but way more modern than the 19th century students. His role models go from the flemish primitives to the early renaissance masters, with rare exceptions. Anything after is already "second team" in his own terms. He's even done a fresco in Italy, in a place called Poggio Bustone, where St Francis of Assisi stayed in 1208. His knowledge is limited though, mostly because it's been directed to his own personal work, all regarded useless was forgotten, and whatever he does is more of an instinct now than a memorized thing, so it's hard to get stuff out of him. Despite his academic training, his contemporaries were modern painters and their influence was strong on his own work.

If I have the opportunity I will take a good camera and photograph the 15th century paintings with better detail. They are very impressive, specially to someone who has never been to any museum in Europe or the USA.

They did not belong to the school, but were given by a Portuguese collector that lived in Brazil. I have no idea how he got his hands on such precious paintings and items, which include really rare books, old chests, decorated porcelains, miniatures, furniture, and more, all of those being exhibited at the museum.

[Darshu]

Somehow my last reply got eaten up (some message said it was awaiting moderator's review) so I'll try to re-answer it and remember all that I said, it was a long post...

These drawings are all in our school's museum, and some are indeed amazing, specially Rodolfo Amoedo's (you can look him up on google I think, there are some images and a brief biography).

The museum was abandoned for many years, with leaks that destroyed many paintings and fungus that left drawings almost unrecognizable. A 15th century paintings is one of them. Only recently the museum got moved up to the 7th floor with a better structure. But most students don't even go there, don't know what's in it. If you were to tell a student of painting that the school's museum has an original Quentin Matsys, 90% of them probably would not even know who Quentin Matsys was, and even if they did, which is highly unlikely, they wouldn't care much.

The museum holds a collection of work that was done at the school. It's mostly students work while they were studying at the academy, or work they had to submit regularly while studying in Paris after winning the prize-trip, which is the case of some of the drawings I posted. It also holds a good collection of paintings, I could post some if you like, though none of them in my opinion became great painters.

The school is called, today, School of Fine Arts or Escola de Belas Artes. It was once the Imperial Academy of Fine arts, founded in 1822, which then evolved to National School of Fine arts and then only School of Fine arts.

No one teaches academic training at the school anymore, the knowledge is lost and the interest in it is close to zero, both from students and teachers. Rare exceptions are professors of the Printmaking course, which I'm majoring at, such as Kazuo Iha for Lithography. Sculpture and Painting courses still exist, barely, though no teacher holds enough knowledge to teach anyone how to paint or sculpt properly. The contemporary approach has taken over it almost entirely.

The last of the academics, who studied under some good professors, is Lydio Bandeira de Mello, 83, former student and teacher at the School. He gives only private live model drawing lessons now at his atelier and as far as I know is the only one alive who knows a thing or two about drawing and painting. It's a limited knowledge though, as it is directed to his work, which was highly influenced but the modernists who were his contemporaries.
Nevertheless he knows how to draw, but due to his age it's hard to get much out of him. Whatever was regarded useless to him was probably forgotten and whatever he does now is more instinct than memorized knowledge.

His approach to drawing is kind of a mixture between analytical and comprehensive of the body. There are no absolute values like the realist school, the body is understood by planes, rhythm, simplified in boxes and cylinders much like Bridgman, and all parts of the drawing are worked at the same time, but there's also measuring and an attempt to put on the paper what you see rather than what you understand (at least for beginners).

His role models are all from the renaissance, and it's a limited roster too, spanning from the early Flemish primitives to the early renaissance painters. Anything after that is considered "second team" in his own terms. He even has done a couple of frescoes in Italy, in a city called Poggio Bustone, where St Francis of Assisi stayed in 1208. But like I said, it's still a painting that has great influence of his time.

The Quentin Matsys' painting at the museum is part of a collection given to the museum by a Portuguese, who lived in Brazil, after he died. I haven no idea how he got this collection in the first place, nor does anyone there, which includes 15th century paintings, old chests, rare books, miniature paintings on metals, porcelain, etc. Some paintings are of unknown authorship and only recently has the museum director began to investigate his life to know where they came from and perhaps find the authors and their true identity.

[Darshu]

Guru,

I tried a second time to reply to your post but perhaps because it's too long it keeps saying it will be visible after a moderator approves it, which hasn't happened yet after 2 days. Should I just wait or break it up in smaller posts?

[Darshu]

And there they are....

[bull-head]

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

Unbelievable, you have these drawings.:sungod:
I've never seen anything from Brazil related to academic drawings. All these drawings are really nice, some are just outstanding. But it really hurts to hear they're "mistreated and neglected".

And the painting!! Jesus, it's beautiful!!

[Wraven]

Yes these are very beautiful works...so sad that academic art fades like this in someplace after reaching this level

[Book Guru]

Wraven, yes... it really makes me sad.

I'm communicating with Darshu via e-mail and he says the situation with traditional are education in Brazil is really not good. Their connections with Europe had been lost, especially when Europe itself had lost its traditions.

What really surprises me is that no one has offered to purchase these drawings yet. I mean, there are must be some art enthusiasts (if not art investors) who could definitely buy them.
Those works that have been posted are really excellent examples of academic school. At least a small portion of them could be sold in order to save and protect the rest. It really hurts me to see them all is such a bad shape... :(

[Wraven]

Yes, it's obvious right ? it's so clear that the conditions of these works are decaying...it's a shame to be lost

[Wraven]

guys, does any body have some extra info about the national academy of arts http://nha.bg in Bulgaria....any reference to the art produced there...students works...just to get a general idea...man the Slavic languages are just great..I'm already studying Russian...but Bulgarian...

[C McElhinney]

Great Discussion.
I graduated from art collage about 20yrs ago and am a figurative fine artist.
At collage I was taught this method of drawing by Bill Cadenhead the postumous author of this book (they found notes) here are some of the drawings from it.

[C McElhinney]

I seems to be the same method of drawing as Shatalova posted by Lena earlier in this thread

[Itakafu]

So in essence any education is a right education, you just end up with different styles and look.