"Normal" University ok?

[Jay-Zee]

Hello all

I'm an 18 year old recent high school graduate about to go off to college. I am going to get a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree in studio art so that I can pursue a future career as a concept artist. My parents, due to the dreadful economic climate, want me to attend a normal 4 year university just in case a career in art doesn't look promising and I can change directions. I of course know I won't be changing my plans; however, since my parents are helping me pay for my education they deserve a say in what I do, so this seems like a pretty fair compromise.

Anyway, onto my question:
Can an art education from a normal 4 year university stand up to one at a solely art dedicated one? I realize I may have to work harder in my off-time to make up, but will future jobs, internships and such look down on a degree from a more "normal" university? I don't know, maybe I'm just being paranoid, but i hope I'm not sacrificing my art education by not attending an art institute. Please help.


P.S. The school I'm planning on attending is the University of Colorado in Boulder Colorado because I hear they have a good art program and it's also a pretty nice, well-respected college.

[pipermints]

i don't think you will gain very much art wise in a regular university if you want to do concept art. fine arts is very very different. i went to usc for fine arts and i felt very unsatisfied and so i left and went to art center. i felt held back and kind of empty in way. i can't say for sure about other universities since i don't know a lot about the programs there but i haven't heard a lot of positive feedback for many. (ucs mostly)

also you want to be careful about your references and who's telling you the art program is good. i find it highly unreliable and i think it is best to use your own judgment. look at their galleries and student/teacher work. trust me, i've had plenty of people tell me certain programs are good but i can tell they aren't adequate.. i'm not implying the one you've mentioned is bad but just visit and make sure yourself.

my parents are the same way because they wanted me to stay in a university and get a degree as kind of a backup. i never really considered falling back on something though because i won't be doing anything else. and if i don't make it at first ill just keep trying and working harder til i get there. i doubt employers will look down people with degrees from normal university. it really doesn't matter as long as the portfolio is good.

to answer your question.. in my experience, i learned squat artwise in my university compared to what i'm learning now. it may not be worth it trying to catch up just so you'd have the safety something to fall back on. of course school isn't everything though and if you really want to you can just do work on your own at a university. just weigh your options and look at what schools have to offer you in what you want to do.

[Meloncov]

99% of university art programs are pretty bad, but their is no reason that you can't succeed despite a poor program.

[Ninjerk]

99% of university art programs are pretty bad, but their is no reason that you can't succeed despite a poor program.

At the very least, they should have plenty of studio space available.

[Maxine Schacker]

Do they teach basic, representational fine art skills? If they don't, you may be wasting time and money. I'm increasingly frustrated by the portfolios of applicants to Max the Mutt who have BFA degrees, or have finished one or two years in a BFA program and have NO basic visual literacy! I interviewed someone yesterday who had NO life drawing. What the heck is going on?

Good professionalism and skills will give you a career. They look at your portfolio. So few people actually have the combination of skills required for CA, that if you have them no one will care how or where you got them.

PS A good program can save you years.

[forsaken dreams]

It is very rare that a regular 4 year university will give you the vocational training in the basic classical skills you will need for concept art work. Make sure to check out their department and BFA exhibit to see if that is the stuff you'd like to be turning out in 4 years:
http://www.colorado.edu/arts/2d/index.html

But due to you and your parents monetary concerns which is understandable in our crazy economic climate, I'd suggest looking into the following state level 4 year universities that I've heard offer excellent art programs (sorry I've only heard of ones in California):

Cal State San Jose - http://www.shrunkenheadman.com/
Cal State Fullerton - http://www.fullerton.edu/arts/art/gallery.asp
(seems to offer an Entertainment Arts BFA which would be along the lines of what you are interested in)
Cal State Northridge - http://www.csun.edu/art/

The benefit of a CA State University is out of state tutition would still be cheaper than a private art college like Art Center, although more expensive than an in state college like Boulder. Here's some quick numbers I googled:
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/items/1137

Second benefit is that with schools in the LA area such as Northridge and Fullerton, you will have access to many of the small privately run art studios/ateliers/organizations in the area that can offer you the hardcore classical training you may crave, at around $300-500 a pop.

Don't waste the time with a backup major, because you're just wasting the time you could have been training your core skills. And if you do end up in your backup area of employment, chances are you will either be unhappy or want to make the jump back to concept art again which will of course set you much further behind. I've seen it time and time again.

Also keep in mind that cost of living in CA is about 2-3x that of CO, so add that to any budget estimates

[thesinfulsaint]

From my experience, as others have said, most state universities have Fine Arts programs that emphasize very abstract, conceptual art (MUCH different from CONCEPT art!). If students are lucky, they'll get a few gallery showings. However, most end up doing something unrelated to art to pay the bills when they're done. There are some exceptions to this, but I'm speaking generally here.

My advice to you is to to focus on learning how to draw and paint representationally. You'll likely have figure drawing/painting classes, still life classes, etc, which are all important for someone interested in becoming a concept artist. Learn to draw. Learn to paint. Do it every day. Be self motivated and give yourself concept art-related projects.

Another AMAZING advantage of going to a state school is that you have a chance at scrounging up extra cash for enrichment programs. Go to the Conceptart.org workshops. Ringling has an excellent program called the Illustration Academy that they hold each summer (for something like $5k, I think). See if you can find an atelier nearby where you will get some quality instruction.

Ultimately, you are responsible for your own education, and you definitely have the power to make it work. :)

[Lizzybeth]

I have heard of schools having good programs before, but nothing huge. Often times the success is very program specific, eg. ceramics or painting. Take a good hard look at the schools you could attend, their programs, their faculty, the curriculum, their alumni, and most importantly their student work. And then compare that with industry level work, the work of other schools/programs, and your personal expectations. Talk to people there! Ask questions! And be honest with yourself and others.

[NoSeRider]

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/10/1005_dschools/index_01.htm?chan=innovation_special+report+--+d-schools_special+report+--+d-schools

I'd browse through the above link.

Art Center seems to emphasize entertainment art and industrial design. San Jose State University seems to emphasize that too.......and the school is on that list.

Maybe you won't go to the number one school, or even the top 10, but top 60 school out of thousands ain't bad.

Plus, you're overlooking the Atelier system:
http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/atelier_list.asp

Ateliers may not offer a degree....but art isn't about a piece of paper.

[Taxguy]

Do they teach basic, representational fine art skills? If they don't, you may be wasting time and money. I'm increasingly frustrated by the portfolios of applicants to Max the Mutt who have BFA degrees, or have finished one or two years in a BFA program and have NO basic visual literacy! I interviewed someone yesterday who had NO life drawing. What the heck is going on?

PS A good program can save you years.

Maxine, the more I read over your posts and the more research that I do, the more I am becoming of a fan of your philosophies and approaches.

My daughter will be in her third year of a five year BFA program in digital arts. Although her foundation year was very grueling and had a lot of observational drawing, there was little, if any, live or figure drawing,which I always felt was wrong!

I guess for design, such as interior design, architecture etc., many schools don't feel that live drawing is that necessary as that for pure "fine art." I should note that students that do major in fine art have a different foundation year,which does include a lot of live drawing and figure drawing. If you will pardon the pun: go figure.

For what its worth, I am trying to get my daughter into some courses in Cincinnati, Ohio or online that do have a live drawing component or I am trying to find some personal teachers who will give there this type of instuction while she is in school.

[Maxine Schacker]

Hi taxguy! We seem to be running into each other again and again. If you're ever in Toronto, please let us know and come and visit.

Your daughter is certainly lucky to have a father who is so solidly in her corner.

[Taxguy]

Hi taxguy! We seem to be running into each other again and again. If you're ever in Toronto, please let us know and come and visit.

Your daughter is certainly lucky to have a father who is so solidly in her corner.


Thanks Maxine, it is actually fairly easy to be supportive of a kid who is a highly driven and motivated as my daughter.

[Ultie]

It's all about what you want, and where you go. I wanted to continue my study of foreign language, so I ended up at a state school with a tiny little art department. I love it. I have friends majoring in a variety of things, my teachers are challenging, and we emphasize the traditional approach to drawing and art. There are a few professors that love the out-there abstract art-speak BS, but most are hard asses about technical skill and honing our eyes.

Freshman year is spent doing nothing but composition classes and drawing, even for the architecture and industrial design students. Drawing is just still life, with emphasis on value and quality of light. With the second half of second semester focusing on color theory. Sophomore year is spent delving into different media, and drawing becomes much more focused on figure. Us painting majors will also end up doing figure painting as well. The next two years are spent honing our skills and strengthening our concepts and ideas, with much more intensive drawing classes than before.

Most of my time is spent in the studio, working away. I might not get the art-world networking that students at top name art schools get, but I have a number of friends in many fields, from computer science to art history to geology and chemical engineering. So I'm building a much different kind of network... I'll go to a top uni for my grad studies.

TaxGuy- If you're looking into Cincinnati, don't bother with the DAAP program unless your daughter wants design. A good number of my friends are down there, and they did away with their foundation's drawing completely. Cincinnati Art Institute has a couple good instructors, but the school looks at students as "clients". But there are a few working artists in the area that are very good instructors, and have very low rates for classes.

[Taxguy]

Actually, my daughter will be a rising Junior at Cincinnati since she originally thought she wanted design. After taking some courses in both web design and animation ,she realized that she liked the animation aspects of her training a lot more and was good at it. In fact, she was a TA in her motion class as an undergrad!

I think you may be in error in saying that they eliminated the foundation drawing classes for designers. It is still required, at least as of last year.

HOWEVER, Cincinnati just announced that due to severe economic difficulties, they will be eliminatingh 65% of all adjunct faculty and may even eliminate some courses normally required for her major. If they do that ,she will be be waived out of those requirements,but that is NOT what she or we want. We will have to see how this may "play out."If they cut too much, she may have to either transfer schools, which would be a REALLY tough choice, or she would try to take some private courses on the side to beef up her skills such as courses at the art academy or private lessons or even online training. She is quite motivated , so any of these options won't be a problem for her.

[Emiri]

Perhaps you can compromise with your parents.
I went to CCAD for my freshman year of college, and was really disappointed that I was learning something I could be learning at a community college.

So, I dropped out, and headed to a community college. *Shocker* I'm going to guess I've saved at least $40k so far.

You just have to be really careful about getting credits to transfer to an art college. One of my roommates who had a 2 year degree was made a "freshmen" and put in all the foundation art courses because they only really accepted her gen ED courses. (they didnt take her painting class because it wasnt oils, they didnt take her drawing class because it wasnt the right # of credit hours--- etc etc, typical money grubbing.)

anyway ~*this, would save the money that you need to and you can still transfer in to a "prestigious" art school.

i'm really shocked nobody has suggested this.

[Maxine Schacker]

Forget about prestige and focus on the skills that you own. That's what will make your career.

[Emiri]

I definitely agree with you Maxine. Your degree will only get you an interview, your portfolio will get you the job... and the portfolio isn't dependent on the school, but the student.

Though, I think some schools provide more opportunity and choices than others... and some have better full-time faculty members, with more to share with students.


And for J-Z; I'd recommend looking up your school on: http://www.studentsreview.com/
and checking out the full time instructors for your division/major on: http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/

[forsaken dreams]

Can an art education from a normal 4 year university stand up to one at a solely art dedicated one?

I think that is the crux of issue, and the answer 99% of the time is "no"

[Taxguy]

Although many stand-alone art schools tend to have stronger programs and more offerings in art and design and less gen eds than many stand alone universities, there are some very strong art programs found in universities that easily stand up against that of many stand-alone art schools. The catch is that these programs normally have specialties and aren't necessarily strong in all areas of art. Moreover, generally universities pay better than that of stand-alone art schools, and thus, can get better, more reknown faculty.

Examples of top programs without universities are: Temple University ( which merged with Tyler School of Art), CMU, University of Cincinnati for design, UCLA for art and interactive design,USC for animation and cinema, Wash U. St Louis, Syracuse University, and RIT.


Also there are some universities have have strong studio art programs too;however, I haven't investigated these since my daughter doesn't want pure fine art.

Universities also offer something that many stand alone art schools don't offer: stronger liberal arts offerings,which help improve communication and writing skills, not to mention possibly offering many interdisciplanary projects that a stand alone art school might not offer. For example, University of Cincinnati had a joint project with the anthropology department and art department. CMU is reknown for having many interdisciplanary projects.

Bottom line: Don't automatically shortchange a school solely because it is a university and not a stand-alone art school.

[Metalclay]

Expanding on what Emiri said and others here as well,

Community College is a very logical and inherently, good option. I at first was really reluctant about attending, I did not want to attend and saw it as a sort of failure on my part. Whether it was (is) or not, I pay no attention, I am furthering my studies and have not abandoned my art education.

An interesting aspect in attending a community college, which I have heard before but never quite thought it an asset, is that you can try out many things. As said, something to "fall back" on is nice, but...if it's not what you want to do, why dedicate time to it? In my college, I've had the opportunity to explore career paths I was considering and I have to say, my interest in art/animation only increases.

It's really nice to be able to try things at the rigorous level only found in college. I took AP/IB and college really is different. Not so much for the workload, because it's about the same. More in the fact that you can't BS all too much, save for the liberal classes. This is especially true if your teacher is truly passionate about the subject, which is quite rare, so...I guess you can BS for the most part. But...why would you? I'm not sure BS'ing your higher level education is a good sign.

Another thing about community college, the classes are small. Small. The biggest class I'm going to have (this fall hopefully) is a physics lecture, 65 students, one credit hour. All my studio classes have been 20 people, max. In addition, most teachers will spend time with you and talk to you about your work, some even care! From other students who go to full-fledged state schools, they comment that in their art programs, the teacher comes in and out, if you have questions, check office hours (obligatory kthnxbai).

Another thing about a CC, classes are cheap, this is a big thing, especially if your paying for your own classes. This as well as the other reasons above lends itself to probably the best reason that makes a college, a good college; the students.

You get people from all walks of life, all with different perspectives, different critiques and ideas to offer. You get the soldier who's back from Iraq continuing his architectural studies, the retired artist who just wants to polish his figure drawings, the prospective illustrator, animator, you have people who are really serious about their education, who work two jobs just to pay the rent and be able to take a couple of classes; it really is an enriching environment, if not for art, then for life....which I don't think both things are exclusive of each other.

In the end, just do what makes YOU happy (that is if you don't have any other obligations such as a kid, then it's what makes them happy). I don't think, in this life, that you or anyone can be successful in life if "happiness" is not present. Happiness, is subjective, as so, anyone can be successful in any number of things from being an illustrator to managing the best damn McDonalds restaurant in the state. Happiness: From my experience, that is the key. That and enthusiasm, which...I also don't think are exclusive.

Here's some advice I got from a local animator down here in Florida:

"I have never seen, not succeed a drop of water, against a stone. One doesn't do anything. But if the same stupid water goes *sfx of water splashing*, sooner or later, 5 years or 10 years, it will break the stone."

Interesting read from The Newyorker while you're at it:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/11/090511fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all

Also, the thing about modern art and all that? The thing is, from my own experience, it's not so much that that's what is specifically being taught. I mean...it really isn't anything like "Art School Confidential" (maybe). It's just that, when you really start getting into "art", into actual finished pieces, it's no longer about your run of the mill academic drawings, it's about concept (i.e. conceptual).

The problem lies in the following, a quote from one of my favorite artists:

One shouldn't believe in all those so-called innovations. There is only one nature and only one way to see it. Nowadays, they want to succeed too fast, this is how they go about inventing new aesthetics, pointillism, pipisme! All this is just to make noise. - Adolfe-William Bouguereau

Although I don't completely agree with the quote (maybe because I am still naive), but it is what I'm not too fond of about the "art scene" nowadays. People trying to get to good too fast, and don't get their foundations down (and the fact, I don't have a decent museum around me, it's all just installations of pipes, lasers, and floating chairs). They get too involved in concept without the proper roots to ground themselves in. You then have these schools, both private and public who are happy to pass anyone as long as they pay.

I can't find the thread now, but on these forums, there was a user here who actually taught at RISD, but left after being told that she was being too harsh on the students, that she should go a bit softer on them. I also think there were undertones relating to people who have paid, not sure.

These schools then, go on to perpetuate this idea in success of mediocre work as long as it is conceptual and is "avant-garde". But again, at least from what I've seen, it's not rubbish just for the sake of being rubbish, but rubbish for the sake of art. Some teachers go too far though, others are more traditional, it's really not even about the school at that point, it's about the teacher.

You can learn great representational drawing at a community college, but it depends somewhat on the teacher. I so far, have had the luck of having teachers who embrace the likes of caravaggio, rembrandt, and da vinci. Of course, I've only had them for basic classes though, where that kind of stuff is emphasized, so who knows!

Just do your research before you start in those classes, especially if you're going to be taking out loans and paying great sums of money. Weigh your options and be flexible; don't rush into this.

To answer you questions: it can be ok. Honestly, it's all relative.

[Bitterjay]

Last I heard, CU's visual arts program is very abstract and undisciplined.

UCD's program is apparently better, as is Metro's.

[hala]

I attend a regular 4 year university for the same reason with my parents. What everyone said here is true and good, but if you are stuck in your situation, know you can make it work.

Get to know the faculty and admin--If you feel your foundation classes are lacking, or that there is something seriously missing from their approach, bring it up! Most admin will highly respect a student that takes their work that seriously. I was very disappointed with a lot of things at my school, but I can't afford to go to go else where. In the end I got invited to the budget meetings and set up a group to discuss changes, and even implemented a few. Pizza with the admin and students every couple weeks or so. Does wonders :)

Get to know your teachers. For the most part, if they see a student that wants to excel, they're gonna help that student. Just because the approach is more post-modern conceptual based, doesn't mean they don't know how to help you. Ask your teacher if they have time after/before class to view your works outside of class, or your current portfolio. I did this numbers of time--their experience and knowledge is still valuable, and they will help you network.

Also, supplement yourself with tutorials from CA, Gnom, Youtube, anywhere.

You can discuss how much it sucks or doesn't to go to a 4 yr. normal uni, but in the end if that's what you have to do, make the most of it, and you will excel. :)

What everyone else said is true though, but in the end success is up to you. hope that helps!

[Noia]

I'd just like to add to the community college wagon a bit. I had great grades in high school, but wasn't sure where to go right away, so I went to a community college with a good art program and after two years there, I then transferred to a four year state college.

I gotta tell ya, the facilities and teachers at my community college were way better than the state school. When I transferred, they were teaching juniors and seniors the same basic art foundations I learned as a freshman. My parents were convinced that a degree was all I needed to succeed in life, so don't fall into that. The school did accept almost all my CC art credits so I was able to double major in fine arts and digital arts with very little effort.

There's different strategies you could take here. You could find a state college with a good art program that they are known for (make certain of this), or you could snag your basic art foundations for cheap at a community college then transfer to an art school of your choice.