Games you consider to be Art.

[Kagemusha22]

For me the one game that sticks in my mind that I consider art, is Final Fantasy VII. It's the one game in the series where all factors are of a high quality (plot, character and setting design, music and decent presentation), and they all seem to have a common aim and theme.

Whilst some elements aren't the strongest the series has seen, including at times a rather cliche'd plot (some cliches it started or just recycled from anime), bad dialogue (ranging from laughably flippant lines in serious situations, or Engrish like 'This guy are sick'), and at times ham-fisted satire on modern issues (the whole thing on coglomerate's being evil and nature being pure). Though despite those flaws, the plot still has a heart and soul, and more importantly was ambitious enough to try and be more complex than the average game at that time. (Along with having an emotional warmth, that some some films and TV shows would kill to have) The plot reads like Tolstoy in comparison to some plots used in games, which are usually just excuses to shoot things in the head.

Whilst the change in art direction, still causes arguments between fans today. Where the series saw Tetsuya Nomura picking up where Yoshitaka Amano left it, producing idiosyncratic characters that were derivative of Manga & Anime culture rather than Amano's more traditional fantasy style. (Which is arguably prettier to look at it, and probably why he still designs the front covers) The character designs ranges from ridiculous, to just plain bizarre, but it never failed to hold my interest. The only big problem I have with Nomura's design for VII, is the almost black & white minstrel depiction Barrett gets (who looks like a poor-man's Mr. T, with a gun for a HAND!?), and who spouts stereotypical dialogue. Seriously what the hell;

http://www.ffinsider.net/final-fantasy-7/pix/Barret.jpg

The background design, being far superior. All being extremely well detailed and engrossing, with environments ranging from industrial-themed areas that feature a dangerous and overwhelming atmosphere, to ethereal forests and dream-like old ruins (City of the Ancients). Some of the strange imagery that caught my eye whilst playing through Midgar, reminds me of Phillip K. Dick novels mixed with Akira, whilst the scenery outside is equally as captivating but for different reasons, featuring locations that try to express animist spirituality, which could have been out of a Hayao Miyazaki film. In my opinion the scenery is easily one of the best parts of the game.

And then there's the music which perfectly complements the locations it's been made for, and whenever a development in the plot occurs. What's more shocking is how Uematsu managed to compose such a accomplished soundtrack with just a Midi, which he uses to his advantage, making industrial sounding tracks;

hGVg_nsYktQ

All the time wearing his inspiration from traditional Celtic music on his sleeve;

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The soundtrack for me is probably the strongest part of the whole game, tying all the loose ends together to make a complete whole. Some scenes simply wouldn't have worked without Uematsu's input.

Anyway that's my thoughts on why I think FFVII is art, feel free to disagree or put up an evaluation on a game that you consider is a piece of art.

[JJacks]

I don't really think games are art. I think they contain art but are ultimately just entertainment. The game that got closest to art that I can think of is Metal Gear Solid, mostly because of the story telling and concept, but also because of the inventive game play. For example the smart soldiers and the amazing fight with Psycho Mantis.

I disagree about FFVII. There is nothing extraordinary about the story or any of the characters. I don't see how VII was any more revolutionary than the other FFs that came before except the fact that the graphics were "improved" and everyone looked like legos. It doesn't push away from being an average RPG in my opinion. I hope I don't sound mean...for some reason when I talk bad about VII people get personally upset. :/

[armando]

Final Fantasy 7 is quite possibly the most overrated thing ever.

[Wasker]

Final Fantasy 7 is quite possibly the most overrated thing ever.

:D :D :D

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[Derek the Usurper]

Final Fantasy VII is the one FF lacking in every area the OP mentioned. If you want to call a FF game art, look at VI.

[Grief]

mario paint

[erinel]

I'm not so into FFVII, but I think games like Chrono Cross, where the sound and visuals are just gorgeous, and maybe FF12, which was awesome visual-wise, could be considered art.

[Ilaekae]

Chess and poker...

[Muz]

Katamari damacy, okami and things like aether (http://armorgames.com/play/2153/aether) from edmund mcmillen.

Games are not art when they are simply well done. They are art when they provide the user with something unique, If they make you think, and if they create unseen emotions in the viewer.
Mainsteam games for the most part wont be able to be classed as art games as they are focus at too much of a mainstream audience.

This is just my opinion. Why would making a game well suddenly class it as art?

[m@.]

Portal.

[mvcurtiss]

braid.

[Shmaba]

Passage

I don't think many people have heard of it, it's an indie game and I know Jonathan Blow (creator of Braid) loves its design. You'd have to download it here (http://hcsoftware.sourceforge.net/passage/) to play it.
Read the creators comments as well if you don't get it (http://hcsoftware.sourceforge.net/passage/statement.html)

[pencilgeek]

Kotor made by bioware its a rpg.

[Jie Kageshinzo]

Shadow of the Colossus.

[JJacks]

I always liked the first two Silent Hill games because they were the only games at that time who used psychological fear instead of just gore and shock.


I forgot about the awesomeness that was Silent Hill 2. Definitely the best horror game that I've ever played. Some of the subtlety in the story and how everything pulled together really impressed me.

[Noah Bradley]

Okami

I mean, OMG. I'm still ticked that the team who made it was disbanded. *sigh*

[Flashback]

Beneath a steel sky

Homeworld

Deus ex



Day Of The Tentacle, Full throttle.... Well, just add any pre star wars Lucas Arts.

and many more I forgot....

[Kman.]

Passage

I don't think many people have heard of it, it's an indie game and I know Jonathan Blow (creator of Braid) loves its design. You'd have to download it here (http://hcsoftware.sourceforge.net/passage/) to play it.
Read the creators comments as well if you don't get it (http://hcsoftware.sourceforge.net/passage/statement.html)

That shit is deep. Really hit me.

[Ashtonw]

Baldur's Gate

[Muz]

I mentioned this one in my previous post, but its a flashgame (dont boo it yet) by edmund mcmillen that has a hell of alot of feeling in it.

http://armorgames.com/play/2153/aether

Its pretty much a story of lonelyness. I think it is the perfect mix of quirky gameplay puzzles atmosphere and story. Doesnt take long to play and i reccomend it to anyone.

[Nrx]

i dont know why, but i still to this day find midi music very emotive, possibly more emotive than real music at times.... wha the hell?

[Kagemusha22]

I don't really think games are art. I think they contain art but are ultimately just entertainment.

And yet they cover three forms of what we already accept as art, Literature (whilst many games may have shit stories they still need writers to flesh them out), music, and visual art.

Yeah Metal Gear Solid is pretty strong, though I prefer Kojima's ZOE series purely on a visual level.

[Incinerated]

Baldur's Gate seconded

[Leonor]

All of them.

But if you want me to mention good games, here's a few that I love that nobody mentioned yet:

Sierra Games. King's Quest V was whoa for its time, although III and VI of the series are closer to my heart.
Riven and the rest of the Myst series, in a lesser degree;
Oblivion.
Tomb Raider series.

A favourite indie from the top of my head is Seiklus (http://www.autofish.net/clysm/art/video_games/seiklus/). It's the sweetest thing.

[Gavage]

Fear Effect and Killer7.

A lot of new games feel more like an artistic experience. Stuff like BioShock, Mirror's Edge, Dead Space - a more unique visual side seems to have much more gloss these days than it would have before.

Hm... and older adventure games like Broken Sword 1-2, Gabriel Knight, The Longest Journey etc. The artwork in adventure games has usually been one of it's strongest points, and some of those feel like a long interactive painting, heh.

[chriskot]

Games are not art when they are simply well done. They are art when they provide the user with something unique, If they make you think, and if they create unseen emotions in the viewer.

While I don't necessarily disagree with you, I find it interesting how many people consider all pictures, literature, and music to be art simply because of what they are, while movies and video games have to meet some sort of qualifications. With pictures and music I seem to hear more arguing over whether something is "good art" or "bad art", while movies and games simply get judged as "art" or "not art". I never quite understood that. Is it only guaranteed to be art if it only affects one of your senses?

If all a game has to do to classify as art is to emotionally affect a person in the same way that a piece of music does, then I can think of many examples. The cheery worlds and bright colours of Katamari Damacy and Super Mario Galaxy made me feel like a happy little kid again. The ambiance and lack of friendly NPCs in Metroid Prime made me feel isolated. The story and overall presentation of Shadow Of The Colossus just felt epic and the colossi themselves were awe-inspiring. Plenty of things can give you some little feeling like that. Nowadays, commercial video games aren't usually little one-week projects put together by five guys with one computer and a stack of post-it notes. They're multi-million dollar projects with world class artists and musicians working to enhance the world that they create. You can debate whether or not they are art, but it's no question that they contain some extremely good art.

I'm really into indie games as well though. Because they can be quickly spun off with little risk to the creator, the indie scene seems like a sort of spawning grounds for tons of unusual and crazy ideas. There are all sorts of neat little artsy games like Passage, Aether, Braid, and Today I Die (http://www.ludomancy.com/games/today.html). I also really like Knytt (http://nifflas.ni2.se/index.php?main=03Knytt&sub=01About) and Nicklas "Nifflas" Nygren's other games, which are simple and calming little adventure titles. While the big developers mostly work on perfecting tried-and-true formulas for making good games, a lot of these little guys work on redefining the basics and building things that adjust the definition of what a game is. There's a novelty feeling to a lot of one-man indie games that you just don't get with the sort of titles that EA and Ubisoft are always producing. That's certainly isn't to say that they're better, but they're usually "art" for different reasons.

Okami and Muramasa: The Demon Blade are art primarily because they look pretty. Passage and Braid are art because they make you think. Shadow Of The Colossus and Metal Gear Solid are art mostly because they are epic and make you feel emotions for the characters (and have excellently composed music).

Personally, I would consider most, if not all video games, to be art in some way or other, all for different reasons. Then again, I'm pretty sure a lot of you have different ideas of what art is anyway, so I think any attempts to really try to convince anyone will turn this into one of those "what is art?" discussions, which I don't really feel like participating in.

Anyway, that's enough of a rant. I'm going to sleep.

[Muz]

Well i didnt really mean it in that way, i more mean for them to stand out as an artistic work as well as a commercial art work they need to have something alittle bit more.

I dont argue what is art because the answer to that is personal to everyone.

[Aenhimal]

another one for Baldur's Gate

[Kagemusha22]

I dont argue what is art because the answer to that is personal to everyone.

And that's why I stress the 'you', in the thread's title. Personally I don't care what type of game you like, whether it be Resident Evil 5 or hopscotch. It's your reasoning for liking it, and what emotions you get from playing it that interest me.

[Derek the Usurper]

I dont argue what is art because the answer to that is personal to everyone.

This statement contradicts itself. By justifying not wanting to argue, you have asserted that there is no objective definition for art, and thus made an argument. :)

[Muz]

Yeah you might be right but its pretty much the conclusion that most of these arguments come to anyway....

Kage: you should take note that i did state a few games that i beleive to be more valid as art though, so i did state my opinion like you asked.

[UnidColor]

World of warcraft and guildwars:)

[Sady]

Dai Katana.

[Kagemusha22]

Kage: you should take note that i did state a few games that i beleive to be more valid as art though, so i did state my opinion like you asked.

My previous post was to your comment on art, but I have noticed the other posts so thank you very much for your contribution. :)

[SMILEFACE]

i think all games are art! some may be better than others of course but i also think how one ties their shoes is a form of art so my views may not be valid

[Flashback]

Conway's game of life

[freiheit]

Video games are not just some amalgame of different arts, they're a media on their own and cannot be judged using an other's art form criteria. Game play and game balance are crucial to the experience as anything else in the game if not a lot more; It affect the impact that the game will have on you.

I makes a boss fight more epic,

it makes a crucial moment all the more dramatic,

it plays tricks with your mind,

it ask you to fight battles you're doomed to fail, condemning you to be responsible for your losts,

Every form of art is entertainment, theater and opera are entertainment, literature is entertainment, paintings, murals, movies, multimedia platforms, performence art... So what's wrong with games? Are they to fun for our own good or something? I also opose the idea of art require to make people "think" or make them "feel something"... nothing can be judge on something so vague... who's to say if it's going to make you think/feel something even if it was intented to do so? What happens when some people feel/think something and others not? Is it half art? And if no one thinks/feels anything? Is it because it's not art or because we're all apathic heartless bastards? It's just to vague for my personnal tastes.

Now you might have gessed it by now... but I'm a game is art person :p never heard anything in my art history or video game history classes that could lead me to beleive it wasn't.... so... Here's a couple of my personnal favorites in terms of pushing further: :)

Indigo prophecy

Sword of mana

LOVE looks very promising

Eiko and shadow of the colossus.

Final fantasy is definatly to be respected, and not just one final fantasy, the sery in itself. It defined it's genre and invented a lot of the systems and gimicks which are now the "norm" in jrpg... Not to mention the godly music from the very talented nobuo uematsu.

Madworld but only graphicly.

Eat lead, because it's a satire of video games and we need more of those.

there's a tons more to name but I'll leave some to the others lol

[Kiera]

Indigo prophecy


Fahrenheit is one big deception.. everyone likes it to the middle and when the maincharacter gets Matrix superpowers completely out of the blue and when the old woman shows her true face (lol) it goes downward..
In the end it's the FBI vs. secret organisation hobos vs. telepathic maya priests vs. THE INTERNET vs. aliens vs. you and I don't even know what those angel statues, the giant insects, that raven and all those awkward sidecharacters had to do with anything
oh, and there's corpse sex. no joke.

wait till you play the game a second time untill you realize that none of your decissions matter. Even if you play like a complete idiot and fail every game and insult every character it doesn't matter one bit, you will lose one or two cutscenes (no awkward shag-your-girlfriend mini-game)

[Gavage]

It's such a shame about Fahrenheit. It starts off very gripping and unique until it turns into... all that. And those weird little 'wtf is the point' 1960s stealth missions.

I'm still looking forward to Heavy Rain. It looks gorgeous and seems pretty promising. Just hope the developers don't go putting anything too ridiculous into it.

[freiheit]

it ain't perfect, but it's different, and not a lot of game dares to do that... and yeah... 's a shame for the let down at the end.

But all that sudden super powers talk leads me to add something else to my list:
Condemned, the atmosphere is incredible, haven't played it yet, just watched my boyfriend play it... I tend to freak out a bit to much so I'm gessing my survival rate in that game is right next to 0 lol

[the_jos]

I find this a very hard question to answer.

Take for example Milton's Paradise Lost.
He didn't invent the story, someone else did. He just made some additional story to it and put it in poem. I think this is art.
Now we have some guy who puts this into image, Gustave Doré. I also think this is art.
But now we take the story and make a video game out of it.
Is this art?

The question is, why is art made and why is a video game made?
The reason for a video game is clear. It's the same reason amusement parks are build. Entertainment.
But why is art made? Because the creator wanted to entertain?
Did Milton write Paradise Lost to entertain us? Dit Doré made his images to entertain us? Did Mozart compose his music to entertain us? Or is this entertainment happening because they created something that happens to please us?
Let's face it. When Vermeer painted his Girl with a Pearl Earring he wasn't doing that for our entertainment. When Van Gogh painted his 'starry night' he didn't do that to entertain us. How about Michelangelo's David?

I think most of the time art is made for other purposes than entertainment.
And the entertaining value, if present, is only a small part of the artwork.
The other parts all have to do with aesthetics and those make that we like or dislike the artwork.
Back to Vermeer's Girl. This might be a commissioned work, but it's surely not an exact representation of the girl. Van Gogh's starry night is probably created because of a fascination by Vincent or as a study.
Michelangelo's David was a commissioned work. The same goes for many other of the great works of art.
In the end it's the way they look, feel, sound or smell that matters, not their entertaining value.

Having said this, one final addition.
The line between game and art can be thin. There are games that have a story that involves the reader the same way as a book. Music that triggers the emotions just like some classical pieces. Graphics that when compared on quality can stand up with art. I have no objection calling the creators of those components artists.
However, there are very few games that as a whole are so complete and balanced that they go past entertainment and into art.
It might well be that future generations consider some of the current video games as art or even the whole development as an artistic movement.

I'm still trying to figure out if my definition of art is to narrow or that I think the games that are closest to art are indeed nothing more than entertainment.

[freiheit]

What of books and theater? You think structure was invented and that the fact stucture was made as a way to make the story more comprehensible and entertaining was an accident? Was mozart not composing for a group of cackling bougeois? Isn't a commissioned work done for the pleasure and entretainement of someone else?

can we really define art by...how it smells? :p

[LORD M]

The Silent Hill serie I think can be seen as art.

[Prometheus|ANJ]

I think that practically all games are art. Some are more artfully made than others though. What's art and not isn't... Boolean. There are of course those who try to make art games, but I think stuff which tries too hard to be art for art's sake.... can feel... superficial. If a game has great design, great music, great visuals, great writing... well, the sum is greater than the parts as far as I'm concerned.

Anyways, I suppose I should mention some game now. I just rediscovered Day of the Tentacle and it has some really nice 2D* backgrounds. Check it out if you haven't. (youtube or vgmaps)

*Interestingly, (iirc) Sierra called their early adventure games 3D games, perhaps because you moved the character in a more realistic environment.

[Spirit]

World of warcraft and guildwars:)

I agree with you on Guild Wars. When I first started playing, I found the landscape in the game to be beautifful. Even now, after playing it since it first came out, I still find areas which inspire me.

[Farvus]

When it comes to art, old amiga game Perihelion: the Prophecy for me is masterpiece. Every single thing made for the game (even stupid buttons) creates the feel of the world. The story is short and linear but still Perihelion's world stimulates my imagination more than any other open and super developed Morrowind-like world.

[freiheit]

[QUOTE=Prometheus|

Anyways, I suppose I should mention some game now. I just rediscovered Day of the Tentacle and it has some really nice 2D* backgrounds. Check it out if you haven't. (youtube or vgmaps)
[/QUOTE]

You just made me realise I still haven't tried psychonauts (which you might also like if you haven't tried, that one is from Tim Schafer to) and I'm anticipating an other game from that guy: Brutal legend. I also heard a lot from an other game he did arround the same time as day of the tentacles that's called full throttle (the 1995 game).

[Cthogua]

I think in order for games to start being taken seriously as art, they're going to have to start addressing serious issues, and perhaps exchange the idea that it always has to be fun with, with the idea that it should always be engaging. Seriously though, can you name a AAA game who's main point is social commentary? I think survival horror games come the closest in that they present an experience that isn't always fun per se, and provide a plot that is more than just an excuse for some action. It's the same reason science fiction often isn't taken seriously as literature. Most of it is basically just escapist fantasy, or tech-porn. Not that I think there's anything wrong with either, but it lends a non-serious edge to the entire genre. It hasn't always been that way...there used to be the Ray Bradburys, Isaac Asimovs, and Phillip K Dicks, and their work used the medium of science fiction to hold up a mirror to society, or to speculate on what current political and philosophical ideas might be like when taken to extremes, and in doing so reveal their flaws. Their work is regarded as literature and not just pulp because of the depth and implication of their ideas. I think alot of Japanese RPGS dig at this, but miss the mark and replace actual depth with convolution. I think that until games can cross this threshold, they'll remain basically just high-tech toys.

[freiheit]

I agree with you, people need to replace "fun" by engaging, it's like we're scared that if we start making games on deeper subjects... they'll stop being fun. There's plenty for philosophy with out killing game play.

That said, there's still a couple of AAA games with deeper subjects, take tales of vesperia for exemple, it has a nice little comparaison and question about the valor of being a vigilante and accepting to be a murderer for the good of justice, while an other choses the path of changing justice from the inside while risking to loose one's orriginal goal by doing everything according to everyone else's rules... A bit like final fantasy tactics accually... There's also been a lot of the good vs evil as well as more ambigious vilains and heros coming up recently which is a nice little change from the "mouhahaha I am evil let's destroy the world and I have no idea what I'll do once that's done" type of vilain.

[JJacks]

And yet they cover three forms of what we already accept as art, Literature (whilst many games may have shit stories they still need writers to flesh them out), music, and visual art.

Yeah Metal Gear Solid is pretty strong, though I prefer Kojima's ZOE series purely on a visual level.

What did I say in my post? I said they contain art. So are you agreeing or disagreeeing with me? :/

A game melds all of these together to create a product for a consumer. Games are made with the intention to be marketed to people and to tailor to their tastes and expectations. Their first priority is to entertain...how they entertain varies from genre to genre or game to game. Because of this I don't think games are art.

When you break a game down into components you can find individuals who create art for games. That's as far as I would go.

I'm sorry I just don't see how a platform famous for using sex and violence to sell products can be considered art. I love games and I play them all the time but they aren't art to me. That doesn't mean they are bad and not to be respected.

[Prometheus|ANJ]

A Zorn painting of some tits doesn't have much social commentary but it's still great art.

RTS games are sometimes good at giving some depth to all sides of the conflict, because the player will play all sides. I kind of like the general transcendence-of-man theme of Total Annihilation for example. Other types of games really needs a one dimensional villain to allow the player to feel unhindered when blasting stuff into oblivion. Imagine if after killing every Goomba you find out that it just needed the job to feed its family. Now daddy isn't coming home and a Goomba family starves to death. Meanwhile Mario kills thousands of Bowsers minions. And what's Bowser's crime? Love?*

Also, it may not be easy to immerse the player into a difficult and interesting choice if he feels the scripted programming underneath. There's gonna be a lack of fidelity in the feedback of the player's actions. In the case of a sandbox game, well, NPC behaviors are very difficult to model realistically. It'll be a while before NPCs stops being wall humping idiots.

(* I actually tried to give both sides some dimension in my Kid Icarus (http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/miscgame/kid_icarus.htm) project though.)

[wassermelone]

I'm sorry I just don't see how a platform famous for using sex and violence to sell products can be considered art.

Making arguments for something not being art based on the commercial viability of the medium does some interesting things. What about a portrait artist? What about art commissioned by the Church? Illustration is a platform famous for using sex and violence to sell products. It is most certainly art. Commerical games might not make deep or sublime art... but neither does most illustration.

As far as an example of something 'sublime'... you have to go no further than the indie scene. Check out Today I Die (http://ludomancy.com/games/today.html) or Passage. (http://hcsoftware.sourceforge.net/passage/)

[Wasker]

I remember Another World from when I was a kid. That lion used to give me nightmares.

Its pretty much unrivaled in terms of storytelling in games imho. Atleast by the standards back then.

and Portal, baldurs gate ofc! I really liked halflife 1 when it hit the shelves back in the days.

"...testing..testing. everything seems to be in order."

nostalgia :x

[the_jos]

What of books and theater? You think structure was invented and that the fact stucture was made as a way to make the story more comprehensible and entertaining was an accident? Was mozart not composing for a group of cackling bougeois? Isn't a commissioned work done for the pleasure and entretainement of someone else?

can we really define art by...how it smells? :p

Let's start of with commissioned work.
Sure, part of it is for pleasure and entertainment. However, it's for a large part about the commissioner. He or she wants something unique and can also afford it. Being able to say that Dalí made a painting specially for you is far more valuable than being able to buy a painting by Dalí. Even if it's far more expensive. Look at me, I can afford Rembrandt to paint me, Mozart to compose for me, Michelangelo to make a statue for me. Or I could be a huge fan of the artist and want something from him just for me alone.
I really doubt that the primary reason for commissioned work is pleasure and entertainment.

Books and theater. That's about an artist who wants to share a story with us. Anne McCaffrey sharing the world of dragons with us. Joanne Rowling taking us to her magical world. Greek drama writers telling their story. Sure, the story is entertainment, but entertainment is not the purpose. The story is. And if one cannot remember or follow the story one will stop listening and get distracted. I'm still struggling with one of my (old) English books and am considering reading it in my native language because it has too many words I don't know or from which I don't know the exact meaning. It's a great story but it's hard to follow that way.
Also keep in mind that it's only a short time that 'the masses' are able to read and write. Making stories easy to remember and understand was key to passing them to future generations. The details change, the main story remains almost the same.

Still I doubt we consider every story that pops from someones mind art.
The same as we don't consider every drawing made by pensil or paint art.
No, we call it a drawing or a painting. And a story is a story. Bedtime story, campfire story, religious story. Not bedtime art, campfire art, religious art (though that excist).

For some reason when I make a chair it's furniture and when Gerrit Rietveld made one it's art.
When I paint some colored shapes on a canvas it's shapes, when Theo van Doesburg did it, it's art (both were members of the 'De Stijl' movement, of which Mondriaan was also a member).

This is why I doubt if I should call certain video games art or not.
I can't distinguish between furniture, shapes and art :P

[Kagemusha22]

What did I say in my post? I said they contain art. So are you agreeing or disagreeeing with me? :/

A game melds all of these together to create a product for a consumer. Games are made with the intention to be marketed to people and to tailor to their tastes and expectations. Their first priority is to entertain...how they entertain varies from genre to genre or game to game. Because of this I don't think games are art.

When you break a game down into components you can find individuals who create art for games. That's as far as I would go.

I'm sorry I just don't see how a platform famous for using sex and violence to sell products can be considered art. I love games and I play them all the time but they aren't art to me. That doesn't mean they are bad and not to be respected.

Changing the subject here, but when Shakespeare wrote his plays he aimed them at a general audience, that enjoyed weekly beheadings, so there was a culture of one-up-manship within theatre to feature blood & guts. In an attempt to capture the (often rowdy) audiences attention. Shakespeare's plays are full of violence (remeber the eye-gouging scene from King Lear? I saw it at the Globe last year and it made everyone react) and sexual reference, but people don't say his art is lesser because of it. Most academics agree that he was genius with verse and that his plays have engrossing stories (stories that he recycled from history or old tales).

The same goes for the 'Father of English Literature' Chaucer, who not only features heavy sexual reference and violence which contrast with the holy references he makes in 'The Canterbury Tales', he was also one of the first writers to use the C word. (But spelt 'queynte' in Middle English).

[tobbA]

I don't think some games are art while others isn't. If one game is art then all games are art.

Same goes for any other media. You can't say say one movie is art and another one isn't.

That being said, I agree with whoever else said it, I don't think games are art in themselves. They do, however, include art. You could call the story of a game art, as well as the music and graphics. But gameplay is not art in itself. It's like it's not art if I go outside to take a walk. Or play sports.

[Serpian]

Passage

I don't think many people have heard of it, it's an indie game and I know Jonathan Blow (creator of Braid) loves its design. You'd have to download it here (http://hcsoftware.sourceforge.net/passage/) to play it.
Read the creators comments as well if you don't get it (http://hcsoftware.sourceforge.net/passage/statement.html)


Wow. Thank you.


You could call the story of a game art, as well as the music and graphics. But gameplay is not art in itself. It's like it's not art if I go outside to take a walk. Or play sports.

Well no, you playing the game is not art, just as you listening to music or watching a movie isn't art. The game itself (often) contains visual design, story design, music and sound design, AND gameplay design (i.e. different game mechanics, how the game works etc.) All of these are, in my opinion, art.

[tobbA]

Well no, you playing the game is not art, just as you listening to music or watching a movie isn't art. The game itself (often) contains visual design, story design, music and sound design, AND gameplay design (i.e. different game mechanics, how the game works etc.) All of these are, in my opinion, art.

Yes. But those mechanics are just that... mechanics. When you're in a car and you press down the gas pedal the engine makes a loud noise, but the engine isn't a piece of art just because of that.

I think art has to be something that communicates to you. The mechanics of a game is rather something that you communicate through. More like an instrument.

[freiheit]

Books and theater. That's about an artist who wants to share a story with us.

You think game designers don't share the same goal? They want you to feel something and embarque you on a journey and they can do so even more then a book, movie or picture because they require YOU to pose actions. Interactivity brings a whole new level of depth to an experience.

[JailHouseRock2]

I don't think anyone's said it yet so I will.

Bioshock.




.

[WinterTime]

Starcraft, and Starcraft Broodwar. Flawless, and still strong after 10+ years.

Although I feel Starcraft 2 may be Overblown and overhyped, I'll still be tempted to get it when it comes out.

http://starcraft2.com

[the_jos]

You think game designers don't share the same goal? They want you to feel something and embarque you on a journey and they can do so even more then a book, movie or picture because they require YOU to pose actions. Interactivity brings a whole new level of depth to an experience.

In my first post I compared video games to amusement parks for a reason.
Amusement parks are generaly not seen as art as far as I know.

We are blessed with an amusement park called De Efteling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efteling)
It has attractions like Droomvlucht (Dreamflight, Droomvlucht picture (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Bol_in_de_droomvlucht.jpg)
Droomvlucht movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zviAIIY6Bm0)), Fata Morgana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fata_Morgana_(Efteling)), The Nightingale and The Little Match Girl (Both Andersen stories).
But also older attractions like The Haunted Castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haunted_Castle_(Efteling)), which though it's dated is still a great piece of work considered the time it was build (late 70's).
The Fairy Tale Forest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_Tale_Forest), designed from the early 50's onwards is a fine example of putting fairy tales to life, even today.

But, even though it requires great craftsmanship to build such a thing and the people who made the attractions are truely artist, does this make the total attraction art? Even when it's build by artists?
Or is it just attractions in an amusement park?

Maybe I should quit, we are heading to the question: what defines art...

[freiheit]

lol yeah, if we get into what defines art, we'll never see the end of it.

I understand your logic, but an amusement park is not a video game is it? The only thing they have in common is that they're made by a team and that they're fun (hopefully). If you were to really reeeeeaally have to compare it to something else because if you didn't, you'd self-combust, I think viewing it as interractive theater would probably be what would come closest. It's a very basic and a bit of a naive comparaison, but at least, it's closest to reality then a amusement park. :p

[thedo12]

When we define what is and what's not art by it's medium and not by it's content then I think we have fallen down a rather sad path.
One where the term art becomes rather useless becuase of it.

[Sulk-Sal]

Apparently some games do the whole "social commentary" thing, Beyond Good and Evil. If it did, I sure didn't notice, but it was a fun game with a nice style. Also, I already get told what a "horrible person" I am in movies, I don't need any smack talk from games unless it's a foul-mouthed kid who just fragged me.

It's a shame (or perhaps thankfully) that it doesn't usually work out most of the time. Most games with morality choices usually don't go far enough. What I mean is that with Jade Empire, I was able to get all three endings even though I was good the whole time. Deus EX 2 was worse. Fable 2 was pretty genius in that aspect since there was no real way to undo a decision. You made it, you keep it forever.

Even when it comes to relationships, I'm not sure those work out too well. For being such a great company, the past few Bioware games, the companions felt more like they were vending machines then someone you could care about. I love the romance in BG 2. In Mass Effect, I couldn't bring myself to care. Although I will say the two best moments in that game are the Wrex confrontation and the choice you have to make at the end of the level. I think my jaw dropped at that point.

But Anyway:

Fable 2 (just because of the dog)
WoW (it has a nice style, and the Wrathgate experience...beautiful)
Morrowind/Oblivion (Morrowind was more imaginative, but Oblivion had better mechanics)
If Bioware can pull it off (and I don't doubt they can) their new Star Wars MMO with the fourth pillar of Story.
There are more, but I should get to drawing. Games like Katamari fit too.


I wonder if we'll (as a collective society) be having the same argument about art vs entertainment when it comes to holodecks if they ever become a reality.

[pencilgeek]

the super star wars for nes was great for it's time....any game mad by bioware is art to me.

[pencilgeek]

i like to see bioware make jade empire 2 i'm not a big fan of mmo's so i don't know what to think of the new star wars mmo dam bioware why not just make kotor 3.

[kjdawson80]

Final Fantasy VII is the one FF lacking in every area the OP mentioned. If you want to call a FF game art, look at VI.

OMG YES. Final Fantasy VI is the greatest FF game, in my opinion. Finally, my friends who got into FF via FFVII (and thought it was the best thing EVAR) are finally giving this game a shot... and are floored by it.

[freiheit]

Sulk-sal: Yeah... that's more of a medium and budjet restriction, I'm sure if it was possible (maybe some day it will?) they'd have a kazillions of ending. lol Fable 2 was nice indeed, but more then just because you could see consequences; corruption vs purity added a bit more subtlility to the whole good/evil.

[idoru]

Space Channel 5.

There, I said it. Best damn rhythm game mechanics I've ever played, and stylish to boot.

[Sulk-Sal]

I hope it's possible someday Freiheit, I remember one book, "Hamlet on the Holodeck" I think it was, that talked about that sort of thing and the plot web that would be needed to really pull it off.

A real experience might have to be three games in one at least, with branches to the others depending on future choices.

I forgot about the purity vs corruption thing, that was a nice layer.

Bioware is basically trying to make it a KotOR 3-9 or something crazy like that. An MMO with real choices like any Bioware game is just too tempting though.

Shenmue I would also like to add to the list of games I consider art.

[Caprica12]

Oblivion & Mass Effect

[Cryoxzonomony]

Half-life

[Max Challie]

I agree with you on Guild Wars. When I first started playing, I found the landscape in the game to be beautifful. Even now, after playing it since it first came out, I still find areas which inspire me.

It's unfortunate that the concept art is more fun than the game. Same inspiration, only without level building and quests and the same meal three times per day

[Wiggles]

To ramble off a few of my favorite games for their art:

Medieval
The Neverhood
Boom Bots
Tiny Tank
Sam and Max
Shadow of the Colossus
Psychonauts
Brutal Legend (not yet out)
And anything made by valve has art design that is just mind explodingly amazing. :)

Virtually all of these are a mixture of visually dazzling art as well as having great music and, some having, great humor.

-Wiggs

[PieterV]

Hmmm, I'm not a gaming encyclopedia... but...

Final Fantasy VI
Final Fantasy VIII (okay most FF veterans don't like this one, but it was my first so I'm partial to it. The music is still untouched by any other RPG imo)
Interstate '76
Deus Ex
The Myst Series
Halflife 1 and 2
Any Zelda Game
Heart of Darkness
Hot Sluts

[Ninjerk]

Hot...Sluts...?

[donm]

Zeno Clash! its a new indy game that came out about half a month ago. you can download the demo on steam.

http://www.f1cd.ru/games/screenshots/zeno_clash/131/m_zeno_clash_1889.jpg

[Max Challie]

I don't classify any games as art, really. I guess they are though, in a way. I love some of the things in certain games, like Noah in pic below.. Moebius, almost

672614
6RdbZeOxL2oY8Iss1DEm28aV7ufMFAo9Y

[greenbears]

The two Oddworld games I have played - Abe's Oddysee and Stranger's Wrath - they really stand out to me. Both games for me were really wonderful, memorable experiences in storytelling and art. And yes they are pretty silly sometimes - but they're epic too! :)

[Farvus]

I would also like to add cool point&click adventure game Samorost. Check it out.

http://amanita-design.net/samorost-1/
http://amanita-design.net/samorost-2/

[kelly x]

All games have art in them and art elements, even board games, look at chess pieces, some game artist art good at the craft of game art and some are not...
video games have concept artist's, texture artist's, 2d artist's- why would they hire artists if there was not to be art in games... even playing games can be an art??? The art in Bio Shock is totally amazing art!! I think the question should be which games have the best art, and that is a matter of taste and opinion as in any art. I love the art in the new Prince of Persia also, so many games have great art these days... Oh yeah, Hot Sluts?? Sounds like art to me, hahahaha!! Amanita, looks fun, it's quirky and that rocket ship is cool.

[Gavage]

Can't believe I never thought to mention it before - not sure if anyone else has yet, but Grim Fandago. One of the most unique art styles I've seen in a game - art deco combined with Aztec art and a lot of 'dia de los muertos' imagery.

[Mock]

Project Trico. It's not even out yet, but the trailer is enough for me to consider it gorgeous.

xF3fED8EXl4

[Kagemusha22]

Can't believe I never thought to mention it before - not sure if anyone else has yet, but Grim Fandago. One of the most unique art styles I've seen in a game - art deco combined with Aztec art and a lot of 'dia de los muertos' imagery.

Didn't that nearly bankrupt Lucas Arts and stopped them from doing adventure games since?

[Gavage]

Didn't that nearly bankrupt Lucas Arts and stopped them from doing adventure games since?

Unfortunately yes, something along those lines. It got great reviews but it didn't sell well. The adventure game market had gone past it's peak in the early 1990s and was losing favour to faster-paced things. It's a shame, it's an amazing game, you can tell how much thought, time and effort has gone into it when you play it.

Guess even big companies have to suffer for their art. =p

[Max Challie]

Couldn't we have simply revived this thread?
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=105014

here's another somewhat-related thread i suppose
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=32013

[Dorkthrone]

Psychonauts
Shadow of the Colossus

Also, now that Mock mentioned it, I'd like to add Project Trico. Best catbirdmousething in gaming history.

[painto-]

silent hill series, especially 2 and 3

[Kagemusha22]

Studio Ghibli's first attempt at making a game;

Nn6SR72fVNM

[Nightblue]

Sorry if someone already posted this, but I really responded to Ludomancy's games (http://www.ludomancy.com/blog/downloads/), especially "I wish I were the moon" and "Today I die". I'm not talking about graphic art, rather the emotional response I believe that all great artworks should inspire.

If we want to stick more to graphics and such, Bioshock is one hell of a success in visual story-telling. Its atmospheres is definitely state-of-the-art, and I still cannot play that game at night by myself :P

[shodan]

i do consider games art, though some seem like there just trying to please everybody(**cough** halo, unreal**cough cough**)
the games i find especially artistic are the ico team games (ico, shadow, project trico(cant wait ^_^))
the oddworld games(abes oddysee/exoddus munches oddysee, strangers wrath, etc)
zelda ocarina of time, it really had a feeling to it at times that i loved(reminded me of that movie "legend")
final fantasy 6,7,9 ..... not sure why people are getting on FF7(it was amazing for its time, and still has some really sweet/creepy scenes)FF6 really deserved more credit than 7 though in my mind, and 9 was awesome, especially with how accurate it was to the art that was made for it(still has my favorite FF soundtrack too)
system shock 2(and bioshock), silent hill 1(maybe 2/3 aswell) those games creeped me out sooooooooo nicely(to me only art can do that^_^)
and if it ever got out i would say "city of metronome"........but im losing hope on that oneT_T http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_od_2oZ_UWc&feature=related

[Max Challie]

This thread is useless without pics!

Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne illustrations
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[Kagemusha22]

Sorry if someone already posted this, but I really responded to Ludomancy's games (http://www.ludomancy.com/blog/downloads/), especially "I wish I were the moon" and "Today I die". I'm not talking about graphic art, rather the emotional response I believe that all great artworks should inspire.


That's perfectly fine, like I said here on the first page;

'Personally I don't care what type of game you like, whether it be Resident Evil 5 or hopscotch. It's your reasoning for liking it, and what emotions you get from playing it that interest me.'

This thread is useless without pics!


Agreed;

ZOE- concept art (I really love the dream-line wispiness of the designs in this)
http://mimi9cu.free.fr/zone%20of%20enders/%5Blarge%5D%5BAnimePaper%5Dscans_Zone-of-the-Enders_Shadow_Dude_44091.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PiICf58tqZs/R1A8iUNQzOI/AAAAAAAAAOY/N7wdRb47MnQ/s1600-R/RFO_Concept4.jpg
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By the way did anyone know that the Tetris theme tune is actually a famous Russian folk song, called Korobeiniki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korobeiniki);

O2lO4QNMrDY

[Flashback]

Tic-Tac-Toe

monopoly

Chutes and ladders

Battleship

some art:

http://bigmexicandinner.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/get_out_of_jail_free.jpg

http://www.white-hat-web-design.co.uk/images/snakes-ladders.jpg

http://www.bradyhop.com/images/Games/Tic%20tac%20toe.gif

[AeonPhoenix]

If it requires some creativity, it could be classified as Art, games are a particular kind of Art, as they are usually designed so that the one playing the games enjoy themselves while experiencing it. As for which games I consider to contain noteworthy artistic value...

Okami (I know it's already been mentioned, but the style and story of the game really made me enjoy it, not to mention the music)

God of War 1 & 2 (Definetly felt like an epic and amazing experience to me, also the art was pretty sick)

Persona 3 & 4 (4 more so because of the excellent storytelling and characters, 3 did develop a significant aesthetic that continued into P4 though)

Magic: The Gathering (I know, not a video game, right? It has a huge setting, some noteworthy characters, tons of creatures, and some of the best damn fantasy art I've ever seen.)

Just to name a few.

[John Isaacson]

dunno, for me a beautiful games is one that plays fluid and looks awesome, for example matrix path of neo for xbox and ps2.. the gameplay and fighting engine was so fluid and awesome, the game had cool graphics and was a god dalm matrix game need i say more...

fable II everything in this game is art the world is beautifully detailed and the characters look better suited to the time and era than bacon and eggs. check the awesome concepts on the lionhead studios site

mgs 1 2 3 4 .... need i say more? no but i will! best games ever period dont argure... down to the last detail these games are art the world is so humerous and detailed... actual hienze ketchup used in cafe mgs2 for example... the story is amazing and would sute the muvie theatre. not the most fluid gameplay in the world but god dalm its got solid snake in it would u guys walk up to him and ask why strangling isnt easier in mgs?! the concepts for this game are also excellent..

to an extent sfIV... just becaquse of the awesome graphics style...

my 2 sense...

[Mock]

The past three Prince of Persia games have been beautiful. While the playability of the latest one was total crap, the art for it, Two Thrones, and Warrior Within was just one stunning environment on top of another.

[Sidharth Chaturvedi]

Baldur's Gate 2 and Homeworld. The latter's one of the only games I've ever played that made me really care about the people in it, and we never even see inside the ships.