Sight Size.. practice it?

[JParrilla]

Is sight size drawing or painting something that is important to practice? When I draw from life whether its still or a model.. I draw it from a distance.. never sight size. Even If Im drawing a cast, I scale the drawing because the cast is a few feet from me while my paper in on my lap or desk. So Is sight size drawing with measurments and plumb lines and all that something that is important for an artist or can it be over looked? I have been using the constructive approach to drawing from the beginning (bridgman, loomis, vilppu, etc) So I dont know much about the classical methods. I dont wanna miss out on important things that could help me out though. How do you balance the constructive approach with the classical approach (basically I mean gesture vs blocking in , and drawing 3d forms vs drawing lines to block in lights and darks). I tend to feel that construction and gesture really gives life to figures while the blocking in kind of makes a figure feel like a still object. They seem to be very conflicting schools of thought because for instance when Vilppu draws a figure he always stresses that we dont copy the model we just analyse it... But the classical method seems to promote very careful copying down to the slightest detail.. Any ideas on my questions and the subject in general?

[Elwell]

I have been using the constructive approach to drawing from the beginning (bridgman, loomis, vilppu, etc) So I dont know much about the classical methods.
Just to clarify, there is nothing more "classical" about sight-sizing than construction, and sight size in it's modern codified form is considerably less than 100 years old. Try it out, see if it works for you, but don't be afraid that you're missing something irreplaceable if it doesn't.

[Art_Addict]

One method doesn't necessarily exclude others. I would always stress that you draw with understanding, yes, never mere copying.
You analyze the form conceptually and then compare with Nature.
( one could argue btw, that Villpu projects inorganic ideas onto the model in stead of analyzing its true organic form and structure...)

Sight size is a valid approach but it's important to always question the visual appearance conceptually. This site gives a lot of information on sight-size : http://www.sightsize.com/main.html. So on your question, 'is it important to practice sight-size ?' I would say it can be useful but it's not absolutely necessary.

Many outstanding painters today don't use sightsize, Ted Seth Jacobs, Michael Grimaldi, Tony Ryder, Dennis Cheaney, ..... and neither did the great history painters imo.

[FallenGodX11]

I agree with Art Addict. You don't really have to sight size to become a great painter. Also, art historians like Gerald Ackerman, who did the Bargue book isn't certain about it's origins or who uses it. Question whether this method is true, useful, and worth it.

[JParrilla]

Thanks guys

Elwell - Yes your right .. I am using the term classical in the wrong place here. What I really mean is the methods taught at Ateleirs. Since those methods are dated way back.. I tend to think of them as classical but theyre not.

To me personally it seems like using constructive methods will benefit me more.. since my interest lies in illustration, concepts, comics, etc. Im aiming to be able to use my imagination very heavily and I feel like learning to build from shapes and pieces is a great way to learn to draw from imagination. (Although I know reference is always used for illustratiors.. its nice to be able to conjure up stuff from your head that looks very believeable.) Now I do know that even though I am interested in these areas of art.. I still need to be able to draw whats in front of me and I need to know basics before messing with the rules so Im in no rush. After all I do love doing still lifes, portraits, life drawings and other kinds of fine art. Im not aiming for super stylized art that has no connection to reality.. I want my stuff to look real. This isnt to say that I wont ever try other methods such as sight size, blocking in, contours, and all that stuff. It just seems like that stuff is geared more towards the fine artists and people who are trying to exactly replicate whats in front of them all of the time. These are just the ideas that I seem to think after learning what I have. I may be very wrong and most likely I am :)

[dose]

Both methods are useful for both working from life and working from imagination. When working from imagination it can be equally beneficial to be able to imagine a good silhouette for something. In certain situations it's better than starting with the forms.

If you find one direction more advantageous now, then go with it, certainly. But both directions will help you, and both have pitfalls and traps to fall into. I've seen stiff, lifeless work from people mostly using constructive methods, and beautiful, flowing work from people primarily using "block-in". And really, most people are using some combination of the two.

[JParrilla]

Both methods are useful for both working from life and working from imagination. When working from imagination it can be equally beneficial to be able to imagine a good silhouette for something. In certain situations it's better than starting with the forms.

If you find one direction more advantageous now, then go with it, certainly. But both directions will help you, and both have pitfalls and traps to fall into. I've seen stiff, lifeless work from people mostly using constructive methods, and beautiful, flowing work from people primarily using "block-in". And really, most people are using some combination of the two.

Thanks Tim.. that makes sense

[Zazerzs]

Use it. when drawing from life its a great way to keep you proportions in check and training your eye, when you draw from imagination you're using that stored information along with the constructive methods you mentioned. Remember Villpu teaches animators and those who need a quick reliable method of creating figures without a model and alot of what he teaches inforces that.

oh and where did your sketchbook thread go?

[JParrilla]

Use it. when drawing from life its a great way to keep you proportions in check and training your eye, when you draw from imagination you're using that stored information along with the constructive methods you mentioned. Remember Villpu teaches animators and those who need a quick reliable method of creating figures without a model and alot of what he teaches inforces that.

oh and where did your sketchbook thread go?

Thanks.. makes alot of sense. And ya my sketchbook. Well I decided that Im starting a totally new one but I dont have my scanner here at school right now. Ill have it again in exactly one week.. so from then on my sketchbook will be updated all the time. Im really getting super serious now so Im really excited to get crits. Im more motivated now then ever before and I feel like Im really going to improve. I cant waittt

[Maxine Schacker]

A plumb line is helpful whatever method you use. Most beginners misjudge direction. A plumb line will give you a true vertical against which to compare the angle of the model's pose. I find that many people when using a straight edge tilt it - they think they are judging the vertical, but they're off.

[Doug Fletcher]

Maxine is right about the plumb line. Sight size is used to train your eye
to see form and shapes of your subject so that when you start shading
to give your subject that 3-d look you will understand how the shadows
fall on your subject and when shading you will understand the values
of the shadows and how to shade your subject accordingly. Sight size is
a studio practice that was used by many of the great masters.
http://www.sightsize.com/main.html. will give you more info. Once
you train your eye, so to speak, drawing and constructing your future
subjects will become easier and faster. This is not a quick fix solution
but a process that you can find very enjoyable and you will learn
alot about the form and shadow and pick up things you have forgotten.
By all means give it a try even if you only do a few subjects this way.
I recently have been working with the sight size method. And I
enjoy it. And it has made improvement in work in my sketch book work
which I do on daily basis.
As an artist never stop learning and never stop trying to improve your
work. You owe it to your self.

[Elwell]

Don't conflate relative measurement with sight size.

[Doug Fletcher]

Elwell-
Sight size is a process that will eventually improve your relative
measurement. Once you have mastered or understand how to
measure with sight size you eventually are to use your improved
skills without any tools ( i.e. plum lines, straight edge, or brushes )
and use your eye only for measurement. Which would be relative
measurement.

[Art_Addict]

Elwell-
Sight size is a process that will eventually improve your relative
measurement. Once you have mastered or understand how to
measure with sight size you eventually are to use your improved
skills without any tools ( i.e. plum lines, straight edge, or brushes )
and use your eye only for measurement. Which would be relative
measurement.

No process is a sure proof way. That is up to the individual questioning (and) capabilities of the student.

[Jonas Heirwegh]

Elwell-
Sight size is a process that will eventually improve your relative
measurement. Once you have mastered or understand how to
measure with sight size you eventually are to use your improved
skills without any tools ( i.e. plum lines, straight edge, or brushes )
and use your eye only for measurement. Which would be relative
measurement.


I think what Elwell means with relative measurement is that you dont necessarly make it sight size but bigger or smaller then what you actually see. If you do that you can't work with the sight size method.

[Elwell]

People brought up using a plumb line and measuring, which I wanted to point out are useful tools for working from life that everyone should be familiar with, whether you are working sight sized or not. Using a plumb line to check vertical alignments, measuring off equal sized units (usually head lengths), checking angles with a brush handle or skewer, are all methods of relative measurement that can be used independent of scale. Site size is a particular method of using relative measurement where the relationship between the subject and the artwork is 1:1.

[JParrilla]

yes exactly Sight size is a 1:1 ratio of the subject and the drawing. Its used to create very accurate drawings from what I understand. For me.. using sight size would be a means and not an end if that makes sense. I really wouldnt care about having such a spot on drawing to show off.. I think that I would learn a lot from it though and be able to use what I learned in other areas. I feel like its similar to doing bargues or master copies. I dont want to create a perfect replica to marvel at.. I want to learn from it and take it into my fine art and illustration and see if it helps me improve in those areas. After all my artistic goal is not to draw a cast so perfect that a viewer thinks its really sitting in front of them. I mean ya thats cool but in my opinion kinda lifeless

[Elwell]

A good, critical article on sight-size can be found here (http://www.atelierstockholm.se/index.asp?id=64&parentid=64&lang=1).

[JParrilla]

A good, critical article on sight-size can be found here (http://www.atelierstockholm.se/index.asp?id=64&parentid=64&lang=1).

awesome article Tristan.. It is very one sided but it makes a lot of sense. Its basically saying everything that I thought was true about the sight size method. I may try it a few times.. But it seems to me that comparative measurement is the way to go. Im sure there is some information to be taken from doing sight size studies.. but the idea of such meticulous meausring is just not appealing to me. I think there is a huge difference between measuring for accuracy and measuring until your hair falls out. And to me it seems like sight size would have me wanting to smash my head into a wall. :)

[le_dominator]

Joe, if you have the time to devote to new methods (which I think everyone does), just go for it! You'll know whether or not it worked to your benefit after you give it a shot. Your attitude is already one where you see things as tools that you can use when you please, and not seeing it as some sort of dogmatic camp/clique to be a part of, so there is nothing you have to lose. Try it and let us know what you think!