Need help drawing faces

[123hamster]

So I have been drawing of quite a while (like over 10 years), but I never really got good at it at all. I went to college for art and everything but I still can't really draw anything decent, but the biggest problem by far is with faces. Recently I notice I am actually getting worst despite constant practicing and I am not sure what to do.

Any tips on what I can do to get better?

(I just notice I post on someone else thread by accident, I apologize for that)

some samples
http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/anormalguy/Untitled_3.jpg
http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/anormalguy/Untitled_5.jpg
http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/anormalguy/Untitled_6.jpg

[EightArms]

Hmm. Your construction is a little off-- wonky planes, misalignment. Nothing that can't be fixed. Concentrate more on the start, making sure the pieces are where they should be. I don't see anythign AWFUL from those examples.

[Muz]

you are drawing the same face over and over again.

Go back to the actual forms and try and forget the symbols you have stuck in your head for what a face is.

One thing i find that helps is to get a long sheet of paper and start criticising a peice of your own and write down as many things that are wrong or just look bad, go as harsh as possble. You will be suprised at how long the list gets. Self criticism is the best kind.

[123hamster]

Thanks for the input. Any idea where I can find information for learning "forms, structures, and constructions" of the face?

[JParrilla]

dont take this the wrong way.. but If your drawing for 10 years AND went to art school.. you were doing something terribly wrong or maybe not actually drawing constantly over those 10 years. were you actually trying to improve over this time.. or just staying in your comfort zone? I think you need to look at real life more and draw from that instead of recreating these made up characters

[Baron Impossible]

There's nothing wrong with the faces when considered against the rest of your artwork. The problem, if indeed it can be called a problem, is your colouring / shading in general. You need to work on your lighting, your palette and how to create form with colour and value.

[Alex Chow]

The third picture looks as if the head was drawn initially as a frontal view but the face, alone, was rotated midway in the process, leaving the hair looking kind of weird. The construction is inconsistent.

[123hamster]

There's nothing wrong with the faces when considered against the rest of your artwork. The problem, if indeed it can be called a problem, is your colouring / shading in general. You need to work on your lighting, your palette and how to create form with colour and value.
Well I primary used acrylic and sponge brushes when I was in college, and I guess it's lean toward more abstraction than realism. I just can't seem to get a grasp in digital coloring at all. But certainly I think I need to do something about that.

Here's a sample of my painting. unfortunately it is taken with a web cam so it's probably hard to tell.
http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/anormalguy/Picture1.jpg

Here are 2 trees done with watercolor
http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/anormalguy/picture2.jpg

[hitnrun]

Pic 2 is a hell of a lot better.. I'm not even close to skilled with watercolors, but I do know what I like, and I like the 2nd pic. It doesn't look as flat as the first one.

[rpace]

It really looks like you're skipping past the construction phase of the work, which explains why the features are poorly formed and floating.

A combination of basic study from sources like Jack Hamm and Andrew Loomis and a serious investment in constructive drawing from life would really help you.

Consider beginning life drawing classes from the beginning again as it looks like you need work on all the fundamentals. I really don't know what sort of art school you attended, but it doesn't look like they developed the basic skills in drawing or colour theory.

Not to be too harsh, but it seems you're trying to create art from your imagination utterly disconnected from the world around you. Next time you look at trees, pay attention to the actual colours; trees are actually grey and leaves are usually a wide range of greens and other colours on the same tree. That same sort of problem arises in your figure work where you're making ear-shapes that have no relation to how ears are shaped and connected to real human heads.

Drawing every day from life and even casual photos would help you.

Best of luck.

~R

[123hamster]

Thanks for the input, I been looking into Andrew Loomis's Drawing Heads and Hands these 2 days and it offers some insight into what I need to learn. I think the construction, especially the shape of the nose, is giving me a hard time right now. It is going to take a while to undo my bad habit and learn anew, and I hope it will be worth it. I will also look into Jack Hamm once I can get a copy of his books.

As for coloring, yea I definitely need to work from photo more, and try to stay true to the photo instead of drifting off into random colors in my head.

As for school, I went to a conventional 4 years college for an studio art degree. It probably explain why it really isn't that focused on the fundamentals. But I guess it's better late than never.

[rpace]

I'm just not seeing what you're seeing, apparently.

I agree.

~R

[scottmcd]

Old trick from the book Drawing from the Right Side of the Brain (or whatever it's called): Draw portraits of people with your reference picture upside-down. It breaks you out of the idea of what an eye "should" look like and helps you draw the shapes that are there. Then you'll be able to apply that do your own drawings.

Also, no need to finish things. Do bunches of head and face "gestures" from ref and from life.

[Strela]

I really don't know if you should worry about it. Looks fine to me, better than a lot of stuff I see actually. Might practice pen and ink drawings for a while (or digital equivalent) and then come back to the paint in a month or so.

[Muz]

Atreides, you are acting as if its ok to stay mediocre just because you are better than some other people! that is wrong and a very harmful way of looking at this. There ARE problems, and i have already put my input in for that.

And wtf is this supposed to mean?

"
Don't forget they're pictures of young people, drawn for young people. Publishers don't want to see a lot plane work on stuff drawn for teenagers because it puts the punters off and reduces their ability to associate with the characters"

Atreides, learn to get a propper critical eye.

[rpace]

Atreides, rendering isn't structure. 123hampster is struggling with head construction in addition to colour and handling the media. Even if he were to suddenly develop greater facility with the rendering of the forms, the forms are too poorly constructed to bear it out

You're revealing some pretty wonky ideas about art creation here and I'd caution anyone from following the advice of someone who (seemingly) thinks rendering is more important than structure or that mediocrity is acceptable.

~R

[Muz]

Yes as rpace says, rendering is not structure. This dudes rendering is much better than his forms, and that is a big problem.

So dont give us that load of crap.

You can learn how to draw faces alot better in a very short period of time if you can manage to let go of all those symbols that beginners think a face is made up of. And this has nothing to do with rendering style. Hell you can do the same stuff with lineart so rendering barely even comes into this!

And how do you exactly know what this artist wants to acheive? can you read minds through the internets?

Actually i dont think you can otherwise this argument souldnt have started.

[rpace]

Atredies, the facial construction is that bad and that distorted. That you can't see it should actually be sending you warning signs about your own work and critical eye.

The problems aren't limited to badly constructed ears, or not using the eye arc (which is the least tool to rely on for eye placement), but head shape, understanding how the jaw is connected and moves, how the planes change as the head tilts, how hair is connected to the head, and so on.

The treatment of the corners of the mouth are the least important issues facing 123hampster right now. He has to go back to the basics and develop an understanding of what he's drawing and how to draw it. Rendering alone won't even help since there's serious issues with his knowledge of colour theory.

Manchess knows this cold, which is why he can show structure with deft brushstrokes. Rendering doesn't represent structure, it reveals structure. This last message of yours also reveals you really shouldn't be giving this sort of advice. If you're just passing along what you were taught, then your instructors shouldn't be teaching, either.

Making good art isn't about getting one past the art-illiterates, it's about getting better.

Of course it isn't an argument, but your advice here has been horribly wrong-headed and should be ignored.

~R

[Baron Impossible]

I agree although I don't think the face construction is as bad as rpace makes out. Many flaws but nothing that caused me to spray coffee, as I did yesterday on another thread. Still, that's subjective and not worth pursuing.

Just to explain what I wrote earlier, in case it's misinterpreted, I meant that the OP is wrong to single out faces as a problem area when the faces are no worse that any other aspect of the artwork. In fact, they are arguably better. Improve the fundamentals of form and colour and the faces will improve too. It's then the OP can work on exercises specifically geared to face construction.

[Black Spot]

Clothes look better on a person than a hanger.

[rpace]

Atriedes, a few things; your advice here has been poor and your defense of surface over structure flies in the face of understood best practices in crafting quality professional artwork. Considering the number of programs that do place emphasis on structure before finish and the number of quality artists, like Manchess, who understand that a thorough and solid understanding of structure allows for a confident and controlled surface.

If you think this is debatable, it would be beter to start a seperate thread on that particular subject. In this thread, the original poster saw a weakness in his own work and wanted to address it. A large number of people see the same shortcomings in his work and offered constructive and developmental advice.

Telling him his work is essentially good enough for a particular market, isn't helpful.

I don't think it an insult to clearly dismiss bad advice or ideas. I can't put a happy face on telling someone they're wrong, and your advice and understanding of the relationship between rendering surface and structure are wrong.

I'm in no way upset or irritated by you or feel that I'm attacking you, but bad advice is toxic to artistic development. You awnt an interplay of ideas, open a thread for that. A thread where someone's asking for advice on how to improve their work really isn't the place for that sort of discussion.

~R

[ShroudStar]

rpace is correct. He needs to understand the underlying structure of the face even before he goes into rendering because if the foundation's not solid, no amount of pushing pixels or paint will save it. It's what Bridgman and Loomis always do first with everything - get the general forms down, then work into specifics. With the face, considering it's the #1 thing people will notice first, you really can't have structural issues.

Knowing the structure will also enable him to create different facial shapes, giving him more variety, which will allow him to create different people if he should so choose. Also, just because it's geared towards young people doesn't mean that publishers like a slip on quality. A lot of books for children have top-notch illustrations which are anatomically correct and because of that, look excellent. At best, his work is suitable for a self-publication but higher standards are needed if he chooses to go professional.

[SoufMeng]

I skimmed through the thread and it seems Rpace is a little too severe for your taste and you a little too indulgent for his eh?

However the OP did say he is not satisfied at all with his draughtsmanship and wanted to improve on construction.
So no matter how honest and benevolent your first post was, understand that considering his goals its better for 123hamster to get advice like Rpace's.

And i see what you mean about that piece by Manchess but when the phrase "structural roughness" may apply to that work, in the case of the OP's "structural roughness" is plain understatement. And Rpace is not being mean by pointing that out esp when 123hamster seemed rather open, even in agreement with such critiques.

So just step back a little and you'll see theres really nothing to argue about here let alone explain you guys disagreement by profound philosophical issues.

[Ninjerk]

I do so like me some red herring.

Focus: Life study and a teacher that is well-versed in the form of the face (bonus if they are as good at figures).

[Raceme]

zup, Hamster. Any of us can spend ten years spinning our wheels until we find that series of tools that helps us move forward. I agree, you're repeating the same face. The good news is you're consistent. It's not a terrible drawing at all. You do need some study. As others are commenting, the structure seems to not be there. This is so common. Most artists want to get to the end of the work at the beginning. This is the biggest downfall I experience with students. If it helps, think about drawing like laying layers of spray paint on a surface. Begin with the beginning. You're going to hear structure a lot. The dirty little secret is, if the structure is sound, you can pull almost any drawing out of a ditch. When the structure is there, the rest is so much less work.
If you can find a drawing group, go regularly. Try to find one where there are people better than you - that will really push you forward (plus, you can get great tips). I recommend doing some copies of great draftsmen. Try not to get to the end of the copy, try to analyze how the drawing was built. Draw your own head and neck (I look at them as a unit). A lot of artists are setting goals. I followed a mid west painter's marathon last month http://marchansonart.com/

The most important thing is you're trying to solve the problem. You will. You're asking a very good source, too. I have a student who picked up a Bridgman book and copied the heck out of it. In a month, he had made serious progress. In the end, it's the artists who don't give up!

[alesoun]

123hamster, go to the lounge and check out the "Drawing from the what we all look like" thread. Lots of willing victims there. Practice always ups the level. ;)

[Raceme]

Hey Hamster, I forgot something, there is a great pamphlet type book you can buy really cheap. It's by the Walter Foster publishing company. The book is by none other than ANDREW LOOMIS. You can pick it up at local craft stores even, and here's a link:

http://www.walterfoster.com/books-kits/drawing/2/Drawing-The-Head/HT197.html

Let Bridgman show you a thing or two, also.

[TASmith]

the first one's great. I think her ears are too big, but it's a cartoon so it's not such a problem. In the second, one eye is larger than the other and their construction seems odd. In the last one, I agree, it's hard to see which way her face is turning, and it and her nose are twisted and contorted.

All in all good work and keep it up!

[123hamster]

Sorry I was not able to log in for some time, my computer broke down and I only got it fix yesterday.

I have been working at structure a bit recently and studying the inner structure a bit more. I am not sure if I am going at the right direction, but I been trying to break the face down a bit more and focus on things like nose and ears, which I am never very good at. So far I am still experimenting, but hopefully I can post up something with any meaningful progress soon.

I also try to do more various faces, and use more photo references. It isn't as hard if I am drawing a face that isn't intended to be attractive in some way, but the moment I expect my characters to "look good", I notice my old habit comes right back.

I know faces are not my only problem, and coloring, especially on the computer, is definitely one of them. It's just that the faces I drawn bother me the most at this point. Got to start somewhere.

As for drawing group and knowing artists better than me, I must admit that I am not a very social person, so that would be a challenge for me. But if will definitely participate if opportunity arises.

Thanks a lot for all the replies, I was quite lost and unsure of what I need to do when I first decided to ask for advise. Through the many advises that I have receive, I have find some directions in what I need to do.