The days of downloads on CA are coming to an end. (Matter Resolved. Thread Closed).

[Jason Manley]

***Update: As of spring 2009 CA has solved the piracy problem in this community.

Due to the successful implementation of anti-piracy measures, this community is getting a whole new body, face, and a bunch more brains...and good souls. Watch and see. Very very very good things are happening. It is a bummer that many had to pay the price for pirating conceptart content and damaging artists rights, including their own. We are continuing with doing cool stuff and good things for the sole benefit of the art community.



Jason Manley


ConceptArt.Org will soon no longer be offering downloads of it's content.

All videos will be available in streaming fashion ONLY. The days of theft are coming to an end.

Such is life around these parts. I have found a fast enough service and one with reliable tech. We will be able to watch right here within CA. I am hopeful it is going to go well. CA needs the support right now. We are going to do some online education stuff, need some new server stuff, and offer some new CA subscription based services as well. CA as we all know it will continue to be free and open. Just got some good stuff cooking that cannot happen without funds. Opportunities not had here on the site ever and could potentially change peoples lives for the better.

So again, please support the site. Please do not download and share these videos. CA is doing them cheap enough so everyone can afford them right now and if the piracy continues we are going to have to look at other options.


Jason

[alesoun]

I'm terminally broke, Jason, but I've never pirated anything. I guess I work too hard for what I make to rob anybody of anything.

So, how will things work from now?

[OBX]

What will the purchase format look like in the future? Are you considering making premium memberships with access to the content or would it be a pay per use thing?

[Noah Bradley]

Noooooooo...

:(

As a proudly legit CA supporter this really pains me. I understand where you guys are coming from--trying to put a stop to piracy (and rightfully so). But as the end user... well, it's a real bummer. Having the downloaded content on my computer has a greater feeling of ownership for me. I suppose it's more the fault of pirates then anything, but I'm still really sorry to hear this happening.

[FranciscoShreds]

This sucks... Jason, got any time frame as to when this will go into affect? I'd like to buy the ones I can get before then.

[kollatt]

this is bs. i've always paid for my downloads here..

and i don't mean your decision is bs. i mean it's ridiculous that people can't pay a lousy 15$ for the amazing content offered. thanks alot jackasses. will we at least have an opportunity to download some before the situation changes? or could you set up some kind of donation event to where we can all pitch in to make it worth everyone's while to keep the content downloadable or something?

[Kaffinated]

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/TedsPhotoBucket/Cat-IHasASad.jpg

[Arshes Nei]

Ugh, I won't be able to get any further downloads then. I don't regularly use broadband so I am not gonna sit around to watch a download in public or a wi-fi...that's where I download to take home :/

[romance]

Sadly, the days of theft aren't coming to an end.

This still doesn't solve your piracy problem. Anybody can easily just use capture software and distribute the captured stream freely across the net. Then you're left in the same predicament as before.

Changing the formats from downloads to streaming will also lessen the quality of the videos (not quality of production, you do a fine job Aaron and team). Even watching a stream in HD of someone doing a PS tutorial makes it difficult to decipher what their brush opacity is at.

I wish you the best of luck on your campaign against piracy.

[cesmls]

Yep, it'll make it harder, but my hubby (a computer system designer) agrees with Romance - it won't really solve the problem. It will deter a "casual pirate" & people like Arshes Neil will be SOL, but it won't deter a determined pirate.

[Muz]

oh man.... you guys do realise that in aus we have crazy download caps and forced dynamic ip's? Its like $40 a month for 20 gb. So to have to stream this stuff is not good :/.

And a big f*** you to all the pirates out there.

[beastathon]

$40 a month for 20GB?!! I'm paying $100 for 25gb....

[Kaffinated]

oh man.... you guys do realise that in aus we have crazy download caps and forced dynamic ip's? Its like $40 a month for 20 gb. So to have to stream this stuff is not good :/.

And a big f*** you to all the pirates out there.

wtf? why do you have such restrictions?
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/imaginenothing/sad-cat.jpg

[beastathon]

Didn't you hear? It's part of the governments initiative to make Australia have the worst internet in first world countries. Next up; mandatory censorship!

[Muz]

they arent really legal things, its called greedy companies. You are always given a dynamic ip and if you want a static one you apparently have to pay more....

[Kaffinated]

Didn't you hear? It's part of the governments initiative to make Australia have the worst internet in first world countries. Next up; mandatory censorship!

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j194/edilsonarts/sad_kitten.jpg

censorship doesn't work on the Internets.

[Aphotic Phoenix]

Reading this really broke my heart because despite being really really poor I'm happy to support this site by purchasing downloadable content. Unfortunately, both my internet at home and at work are too slow/unstable to make watching streaming content enjoyable, and I'm just not sure I'd be willing to spend money on watching "buffering" appear every couple of minutes.

I love this site, I love supporting this site, and I love that the artists make money on the videos they helped to create, but if the content is going to be streamed I'd rather just donate to the site directly, because quite frankly I agree with Romance that this unfortunately isn't going to stop piracy. Yes, I will sorely miss the awesome vids...but so will a lot of honest CA members like Arshes Nei.

[Ian Miles]

I have few legit videos, and I´m coming to buy more, but this had left me very unhappy, there are a lot ppl out there Jason, who have paid for those videos. If you are going to make the videos free in streaming, the ppl who have paid, will be VERY dissapointed. Me too. There are a lot of video capture software out there to make the piracy explode when the streaming arrives. Maybe stronger wartermarks, or DRM or anything, but care about the rights of legit buyers will be the top priority here. Please Jason, consider this.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Nuf2SlqNm30/R2GrmACAfuI/AAAAAAAAAAs/v2-8DZb-UfE/s320/sad+cat.JPG

[Jason Manley]

The reality is..we change to streaming and hope the screen capturing stops. If not, we cannot keep this site free for all to participate in. These vids support this site, it's growth, and cover all the bandwidth costs. We transfer at least 5000 gigs a month. That does not come cheap here..nor do the entire mass of servers. I think those who see streaming as bandwidth heavy on these get the idea. Though a video is only two hundred megs or so....ca is five thousand gigs. Now maybe that helps show how I feel about this happening. Streaming will work. The software seems solid.

We already have nearly given away education at the given price point. I just do not understand why we cannot do a good thing without people taking advantage of it. One of the online schools doing education stuff has had NO torrents and their streaming classes are more than two hundred times what we sell these vids for. Life sure isn't fair huh?


jason

[Jason Manley]

We cannot give them away free. If we could, we would. But we have to support this site and keep the site free. We are using an online payment system.

[Jason Manley]

This sucks... Jason, got any time frame as to when this will go into affect? I'd like to buy the ones I can get before then.


Within two weeks is my guess.

[Barts]

:( :(

[aefx]

Changing the formats from downloads to streaming will also lessen the quality of the videos (not quality of production, you do a fine job Aaron and team). Even watching a stream in HD of someone doing a PS tutorial makes it difficult to decipher what their brush opacity is at.As an IT professional I have to agree with this sentiment. Many companies over time have tried various ways of restricting the rights of the users in order to prevent piracy and have failed, some miserably. It's so easy to capture streaming media that I can't believe it will be worth the effort.

Not only that, but as for myself, I've purchased a ton of videos from here but I won't purchase a single streaming vid. There's little use for me as I like to be able to go back over instructional videos for information that I missed before. I also like watching these videos when I am not online like on the train or in the studio etc... So in effect you've lost a paying customer here in an attempt to get people who were never going to pay anyways to subscribe... doesn't make sense.

[Form]

just a shot in the dark, but what if you had a coder create a small ap like 'steam' where you could download the vids to your HD (once only, so you nullify the personal bandwidth issue), but had to be logged in to watch the vid through the 'CA Player'? This way, you could even get the ap onto net enabled phones and pda's etc... and control piracy more acutely. In order to watch the vids you are logged into the ca ap which obv records your ip...

The upshot is you could then use this app to deliver new forms of content (perhaps using it as a newsletter distribution, downloading tutorials, a platform for users to sell their own material through etc?)

sounds like a lot more work, but thought it might spark an idea.

good luck whatever avenue you pursue, it will be a pity to see the downloads go!

[Form]

just in case anyone doesnt know what steam is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_(content_delivery)

[Kaffinated]

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll108/Raymond15photo/sadcat.jpg

[Jason Manley]

It is of note that the price will be going up as well. We are looking at pricing the training vids 25+ USD from here on out (though that is still a bargain). We may go up from there. We will not be allowing the videos to be downloaded to the users computers any longer. Lesson learned. If some of you prefer to not do that, I am sorry. I have my hands tied here. It is either do this, or the entire site goes pay subscription. It will support itself. People upset about transferring 250 megs...man..i wish I had that problem. Just imagine if you had to transfer five TERABYTES of free data each month and then and then you look in the mailbox only to find out that the check has been stolen.

Now you know my reality. :)

[Muz]

When you put it that way, my whining is really insignificant :/.

Its a real shame that the prices will be going up, but i guess if its gotta happen then its gotta happen.

[Smarty]

Whats the percentage of people who payed for the videos comapred to those who got a pirated copy?

Basicly how many people are you stopping compared to how many people your putting off with the new system?

Is this more based on a stand for the right thing vs how much revenue this will create for CA. I know it sucks. I hope it works out.

[Theking78]

Ugh, I won't be able to get any further downloads then.

I quote this.... I've always been happy to pay for the MB downloads because they're great tutorials but I want to be free to carry them with me when I go away with my laptop to have the possibility to watch them wherever I want and whenever I want.
I absolutely don't want to pay a single dollar for a streaming video because it would mean that I'm paying for a thing that would never be mine and free for me to use whenever I want.
I prefer to pay a video a little bit more but have the download available or I prefer to have to pay an annual subscription to be able to download content.

I hope you'll think about this well before going in the streaming direction only.

Only last thing: I work on the Information Technology and if the only reason that you have for putting the files on streaming instead of downloads is to stop the piracy I want to inform you that streaming content can be easily recorded from the pc screen and then put into a torrent site as well....

[Theking78]

It is either do this, or the entire site goes pay subscription. It will support itself.

This would be much more better imo. I prefer to pay a subscription to have the possibility to download content on my pc.

[Penumbra]

Will you still be offering the dvd's?

[ManaBurn]

It will be interesting to see how this experiment works out. Do I need to go mug someone and buy the downloadable content that I'm missing now to avoid having it be streaming only availability, or will the existing downloadable content remain so?

As far as the streaming is concerned: Will a purchase I make give me unlimited access to the content I've purchased, or will it be on a limited basis. Such as I buy access to a video and am given one shot to watch it.

If this model doesn't appear to work to solve the problem what would your next step be. What would a yearly membership cost and what would it entitle us to? In theory of course.

On a side not that corresponds to this discussion. I have a subscription to IFX Mag. You fine gentlemen are constantly appearing in it's pages, yet I have almost never heard about the downloadable content available here on the sight. Kemp had a free video on the resource dvd that IFX advertises as being a value of a fifteen dollar tuition in the June issue. Yet there appears to be less then spectacular coverage of the fact that these videos are available here. I know your artists but it wouldn't hurt in the future to say hey look we have this great thing were doing for the art community so were going to mention it. I know that almost every issue has a review of a art DVD, why not you guys? I only mention this with the intent that if you haven't thought of it or engaged this idea yet, it could help to increase volume of sales which would hopefully lessen the impact of pirated copying, or at least keep the video prices down closer to where they are. What a fucking earful, I apologize.

Much luck and support to you all.

[Volatile]

Theres always some complete *#$&'s that spoil it for the rest of us :( .

I personally have purchased every single one of your downloads and i loved them all. I frequently go back to them and watch them over and over when im traveling or just relaxing with my laptop somewhere.

If they go to stream it will be really dissopointing and it wont really solve the piracy problems to any1 who can use a video capture program. But it may deter alot of legitimate paying customers instead.

Also i hope you dont change the current downloads to stream only. This will only encourage people to go out there and download the pirated versions instead of streaming them.

On another note $25 for a stream ? compared to $15 for the download videos. Doenst really make sense to me if anything streaming should cost less because you can only watch is so many times, unless you plan to tie the stream to our CA accounts in someway so that we can rewatch whenever we want. But that brings up the issue of someone getting there CA account hacked and all the content pirated anyway.

I personally like the idea of subscriptions, maybe have them in a few levels like bronze (free content only) Silver (forum access $5 a year) Gold (forum +video access $5-15 a month) I would be happy to pay that kind of fee to view this amazing website.

[janni]

i don't realy understand how this is going to work.

if you're planning on selling pay-per-view videos or "pay to access for a perdiod of time" for 25 USD my honest prognosis is that sells will decrease and sharing will increase as long as quality of your product is high. if the quality would be low sells would decrease and sharing would end - thats no suggestion to make the vids rubbish, just what studies on the subject usualy show: people are selective with what they share and the average customer doesn't accept pay-per-view for more than 5 bucks.

if you're planning to offer your customers non time restricted access to the streams you will have to pay for a lot of bandwidth without a new constant revenue stream. i don't think this could work.

so why are there no torrents on those streaming classes of that other school who sells their content for two hundred times what you sell your vids for? I am of course only guessing here, but i think the answer isn't streaming but high price. because a) people are hesitant with just sharing things they paid a lot of money for with their peers and b) those guys who make a hobby out of sharing things as torrents probably don't have the funds to pay for those schools classes in the first place to just support their "hobby".
and if we're talking about schoolism: there businiess modell has limited customers and all of them have the whole personal critique thing they pay for.

i am personaly looking forward to those streaming vids the same i was looking forward to the downloads. but i will have to be more selective with which ones i buy. because of the higher price. and because i can't just simply buy because it's a nice way to support what you do and get a great video on top. I will need the time to realy watch and study the vid. and i have only had time to realy go through 50% of all the downloads i bought so far.

and if i could choose between streaming videos and to pay an annual membership fee i would choose the latter if the constant revenue stream you'd gain would actually mean more content and higher quality of the site and stuff.
i am especially thrilled about your ideas on online classes you described in your other thread.

good luck, can't wait for the new stuff.

[Hyskoa]

You already know my opinion through the extensive PM I sent you.
Good luck with it.

[kraal]

well I for one will not pay to watch streaming videos...I can say that I personally think this is heading to the close of this site..... i would suggest raising the prices and a yearly membership fee before making streaming videos ..... but then again maybe i will just get 'punched in the face ' for making a suggestion

[Arshes Nei]

I'd rather pay a subscription to the site than have to deal with streaming vids...(because I can't). Not to mention I'm happy to donate from time to time too as in money wise.

[Devere]

this really unfortnate and sucks, right now I have limited amount I can transfer download/upload over the net and with the streaming it's going to really hurt my pockets if I go over the limit. looking on like 5 or 10 bucks per extra gig. I really hope another solution can be found that's over here in Canada now. guess it won't be possible to support you guys as much when I move back down to Jamaica since internet connection down there is not really fast, that with lack of portability since internet acess isn't always reliable in some other places really hurts the selling point.

as for the increase in price, though I'm practically broke it will be 25 bucks well spent for learning purposes (even better if it's downloadable and transportable) please reconsider or atleast give me some time to scrape the cash together and get what I'm missing while it's still downloadable

[Rist]

well I for one will not pay to watch streaming videos... and since the random insults flow freely from MASSIVEDVD to a constant supporting user I can say that I personally think this is heading to the close of this site..... i would suggest raising the prices and a yearly membership fee before making streaming videos ..... but then again maybe i will just get 'punched in the face ' for making a suggestion

lol very sensitive.

CA are going to burn for punching Kraal in the face.

:uzi: > Kraal


I for one am not bothered about streaming. I do this with Lynda.com for my graphic work. I am one of those who only need to watch something once or twice so having a hard copy seems irrelevant for me.

Edit: Why not do what Gn0M0N Workshop does? With the purpose made software where you can choose which chapter to watch and such. The problem with Quicktime and similar formats is that they can be uploaded as such to the internet. I rarely see Gn0m0n videos on torrent sites.

[Pandora's Eyes]

this is a bad idea. i would rather have the site go paid subscription than streaming videos. the quality will be less. and i have watched nox's vids at least two dozen times.

i've watched marko's dvd which i received from my wife several christmases ago well over four dozen times.

i like to own the video. whether it's a file on my computer or a dvd in my collection, i like to not be restricted by bandwidth and the resolution restrictions of the video format you would use for streaming video.

seriously jason, i would be willing to pay a subscription for ca, but i would not be willing to pay for streaming video.

while i understand your frustration this will not solve anything. piracy continues even from youtube. no matter your attempts those who wish to pirate will find means of doing so. i suggest solving the financial demands of running this site by other means.

as i said, i would personally be more than happy to pay a subscription fee for this site. i believe it would be more than worth it. if people can pay for WoW they can pay for CA.

why not open up a poll and put this to an all community vote?

[PieterV]

Sad to see these go.

For the record, I wouldn't mind having third party ads on the forums.

[Wasker]

While I believe streams might be a step in the right direction, you will still be able to download the material unless you've thought of some super fancy streaming method that I've never heard of.
Not to burst your bubble, just thinking out loud.

Its find it abit sad that prices are going up, but I'd probably still buy the vids.


and I agree with the post above aswell, letting adobe, wacom and autodesk have a banner or two wouldnt harm if its for the greater good of the forums.

I dont think a forum fee would be cool, I dont see alot of nubs and pros paying to post on conceptart.org when they can do it for free at deviantart or cgtalk (or other similar forums). A premium feature would be much more acceptable though, like both cgtalk and da have.

[Newman101]

Im all for whatever keeps the forums free. Even though I would pay a small subscription to be able to post I dont know that I can afford it.

As for the streaming possibilites I dont know how it will stop piracy, maybe deter but not stop. Ive paid for a few downloads, and a few DVD's... it really pisses me off that some punks gotta spend more on porn and video games than the motivational and educational powers of a CA download.

And, even though it sucks, I can understand why streaming would cost more. I dont know the technical stuff behind it, but if they are buying new software/hardware to deal with the loads of traffic they will have to deal with. That and to compensate for what the jerks stole.

[Arshes Nei]

I dont think a forum fee would be cool, I dont see alot of nubs and pros paying to post on conceptart.org when they can do it for free at deviantart or cgtalk (or other similar forums). A premium feature would be much more acceptable though, like both cgtalk and da have.

Actually, you have to pay for subscriptions to use more features on both sites as you mentioned. When saying subscriptions it may be to use certain parts of the forum or extra software. That doesn't necessarily mean the entire forum is subscription based. CA is also hosting more things like the Catagory of works when the Orphan Works laws kick in.

So no, I don't see a problem with subscriptions on this site. CA has done a lot more use with the forums and DA and CGtalk take in a lot of ads which is offsetting the costs. I remember Angelo of Deviantart talking about how they finally hit profits oh about 2 years ago during one of the DA meets due to ads and their store.

Companies tend to go in the hole for a bit, I've watched one of the few success stories while helping out my bf at the time launch his through the USCEC2 Annenberg projects....but I digress...

The thing is there are options such as advertisements ...partnerships etc. http://www.cgsociety.org/about/

[Wasker]

yeah , that would be the premium features I mentioned :) I'm all for that. But sketchbook section, FF, critique and community activities should be free for all, in my opinion atleast.

[evamonkeyn2]

As much as it sucks for all of us. It probably sucks 10 x more for the staff.

I treasure the tutorial files i have bought here, and i have had people ask me for them, to which i replied 'no dice'.

There is a culture currently, based around the idea that something which can be easily duplicated is of no value.And the problem with streaming is that in any form of piracy or hacking, all it takes is one dedicated skilled person to break it. EA dice spent six months making the 1.5 patch for battlefied 2 to eliminate hacking in the game. It was cracked again in 30 mins of the beta being released.

The only hope that streaming gives, is that the skill level and mindset needed to pirate the stream does not intersect with the user base. Because if it intersects at all, all that effort will be for nothing. Fingers crossed. I guess thats why the super expensive tutorials el coro mentions have no torrents, because the high price cuts down the user base to the point that those willing to share the files illegally are priced out of the loop.

To be blunt, the fact that i can draw to feed myself i owe to CA tutorials. It's that simple. And for that reason i will always support the site by buying the downloads. I have download caps, so i cant see myself treating the new downloads like the old in terms of how much i watch them. Could the files be streamed through a more secured/controlled source like xboxlive or psn?

[MeTaL-Mike]

First of all this sucks big time!! i don't support piracy or anything but i do think you guys are a bit childish about this. Face it, it will never stop!! the hackers and other geeks out there will find a way to download your streams or screen capture it in some way. taking the prices up will only (i'm thinking) loose you some customers. Do remember that most ppl on here are students that don't really have an income. sure 25 bucks is not much money but still...

I very much love the vids and have purchased all i have from this site because i want to support this as well but believe me if the vids are gonna be $25 or more and streaming, i won't fucking be paying to see them just once!!!

hope this will work out for you...

[janni]

jason, just maybe.... if you'd like this to be an open discussion it would be realy interesting to not only hear about costs and losses every now and then, but actually see some numbers. and to get some transperency how you calculate losses and where you get your numbers. and how you judge the amount of sharing thats happening. you know... you're an non profit organisation after all. if wikipedia can give people transparency, because they want their money, i bet you can. it would motivate donations if you have some figures. and a goal to reach.

in addition to that i would suggest a "social price system" on your content. give people the option to choose from maybe three different prices depending on their financial situation. this way you'd enable students to buy more of your videos and professionals and everybody else who is able to pay a bit more the option to do that.

also it wouldn't be a bad idea maybe to broaden the way you try to prevent sharing. make things transparent and show your faces. show people VISUALLY where you record your vids, stress that it's non-profit, show the people involved.
also try to be pro active at the places where the torrents are traded. in a more intelligent way then sending take down requests to site owners. leave comments there. ask people to buy. tell people where they can find the trailer. ask them to visit the website and post their art on the boards. tell them you're thankful in the interest they show for your content. ask them to buy after they downloaded and when they liked it. tell them where to buy. DON'T tell them you will sue them if they share - and realy don't do it.

just some ideas.

[jhofferle]

I think the best way to discourage piracy is to find ways to add value to legitimately purchased products. Even something as insignificant as giving customers a "ConceptArt Supporter" forum tag may help. Maybe bundling videos from one artist together with a print of their work, or every video purchase enters you in a drawing for free admission to the next CA Event. There must be a ton of ways to tie-in perks that can't be downloaded.

[biomechanic]

Wouldn't it be possible to add some sort of identification to each file?
So that if some files are made into torrents you could check who downloaded it and than hunt their pirate ass down.

[Volatile]

Easiest way to stop piracy would be to bundle a few similar themed downloads together and bundle them onto a dvd or large download. Increasing the total price.

The higher price will make people think wow i payed $50-100 for this i dont wanna just share it for free.

Also having to get the dvd sent to there house means you know there address if they share content and will make people think twice aswell.

Also you can put a special video player on the dvd that runs the videos from encrypted files, which could have unique id numbers embedded this would allow you to pinpoint the person who uploaded it and directly sue them. That would put of alot of people from pirating content. (could work with downloaded versions aswell) But this still falls into the "video capture" category sadly :( but you might catch a few people out who dont realise.

Sadly the world is full of bad people who ruin it for everyone else.

[BlackGuy]

I just want to clarify. Are you saying that we will be paying 25 dollars (or more) for the opportunity to watch these videos online?

[hemP]

pirates can suck on my balls.

[Pic]

I would prefer to pay a subscription for premium content. I don't think streaming videos would solve the pirating problem at all. I think it would shrink your customer base as well due to the lack of feeling of 'ownership' they would have, not to mention the fact no everyone -can- stream video's due to bandwidth problems in areas (like my area).

[kollatt]

yeah, honestly i would rather pay membership. and i don't feel that way about many websites, but ca is definitelt one of them. can you at least give everyone the opportunity to vote on this before you change over?

[Jason Manley]

I just want to clarify. Are you saying that we will be paying 25 dollars (or more) for the opportunity to watch these videos online?

Yep. As in retail, shoplifting drives up the prices. It is still a bargain considering you will pay double or more for anything similar and cannot pruchase this work anywhere else than CA or it's distribution network ...not to mention watching a video set on academy of art online and then doing the accompanying assignments costs two grand. The whole purpose of offering them so cheap was that we were allowing them to be afforded by everyone. This is still the case. Hell, two movie tickets, a soda and popcorn costs more money. We are also going to offer some higher priced streaming services like the ConceptArt.Org Online Atelier which will be a fully live streaming online education program.

Regarding the earlier question of sales to piracy numbers, based on two of the sites I have seen that track such things it is in the range of 5,000+ pirated downloads for every sale CA saw on marko and chan's. But the reality is, the torrenting has hurt the site and damaged the community and so we will put a stop to it. If that doesn't work then all of CA, the entire place, will go pay to play. If that doesn't work then we will just shut it down and I will do something else with my life.

I have plenty of projects on my plate. Volunteering 40 hours a week minimum here on CA keeps me from most of those. I would be bummed but such is life. My happiness would be found in the projects I have that do not have people stealing from the efforts. Considering I have never drawn a penny in pay from CA, giving up all the non-profit work would definitely fatten my own bank account. I could actually focus on the other career stuff I have planned. Hopefully people will support the educational materials. I would like to continue to build this.

Those that have doubts of such things should not doubt my determination. I built two leading international businesses with six thousand dollars when everyone in the industry told me it was impossible. Before MB, there were no other companies with full production services on the art side in games. Now there are hundreds and the entire industry business model is working the way we helped set up. Hell, I have designed an entire new business around putting a stop to torrenting and I think I have quite a bit of it solved, if not 99 percent of it. We shall see if I am right.

Regarding streaming. Yes, I know some people will have to wait for the vids to download slowly as they stream in. The systems we are looking at are both global and fast.

[Arshes Nei]

Wouldn't it be possible to add some sort of identification to each file?
So that if some files are made into torrents you could check who downloaded it and than hunt their pirate ass down.

You must have missed this thread a few posts down: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=142830

[revenebo]

Jason, since CA is your job and not just volunteering you should act accordingly, we can't blame you for your choices.

Wouldn't it be possible to watermark every single copy of the downloads to eventually track down the customers? (I barely know what a watermark is, I just know it's something like "digital fingerprints") In this way you could prosecute only those who actually shared their copies when you find them on internet.
I will purchase the downloads anyway I think, because I NEED them. It's just the feeling of owning the videos that changes... (I've copied mine to a second computer and a hard disk to avoid the risk of losing them)

[Arshes Nei]

*head-desk*

[Volatile]

Jason, since CA is your job and not just volunteering you should act accordingly, we can't blame you for your choices.




Volunteering 40 hours a week minimum here on CA keeps me from most of those.

I have never drawn a penny in pay from CA,


Which part of that did you not understand about it not being his job and that he is volunteering ?

[Devlyn]

It sounds like you've got some hard decisions to make. I'm sure most everyone would appreciate the effort all of this took and wouldn't be too bitter knowing you had to make the best decision for you and everyone else involved.

[Arshes Nei]

Which part of that did you not understand about it not being his job and that he is volunteering ?

-_-;; while the user made a mistake of it "Being his job" as in he works on CA a lot, he's not making a fight if you read his post (ie he UNDERSTANDS Manley is making difficult choices because CA is his bambino). It's no reason to make it an argument.

[revenebo]

Volatile I rectify: "Jason, since CA is something like a job for you, we can't blame you for your choices"

I mean that with all the efforts and time he puts in CA he has the right to treat it as a job and act accordingly (i.e. to do everything he deems good for it)

Volunteering 40 hours a week IS like a job, otherwise he should work at night...

[evilagram]

I cannot help but feel that this is a drastic mistake. I do not know how it occurred to you that streaming content would work any better, but it's a really poor choice. There are pirates on youtube too, not to mention those flash websites.

When I saw the thread I had a big discussion with a friend over how this can be solved. Basically, if it's on your screen, you can steal it. We decided that there were two real methods of preventing this, the big brother method, and the "can't be assed" method.

Steam used the big brother method, rechecking your account to see if it's really you every 20 seconds. This is great because they're not streaming videos, they're playing games.

The Gamecube used the "can't be assed" method. Sure it was possible to get the little discs they had and the right drives to read it and a million other things, but it wasn't worth it to the pirates.

Try using the Big Brother method for the distribution of the videos, to make sure the right guy has their video, and the "Can't be assed" method for the actual displaying of the video. Start by encrypting it and making it so that a key retrieved from the server, given a real username and password, is the key. To prevent a paying user from sharing, figure out some clever way of playing the video that is annoying to screen capture. If this is executed correctly, then it means no hassle on your users, perhaps even a benefit due to the digital distribution system, and it makes it annoying for pirates.

As an added note to the above, make it so you have to log in to get the decryption key and that the key is cleared from cache upon closing the program. This means that you can log in while you're in range, grab the encrpytion key, and enjoy the video, played locally, until you close the program again. For added security, it might be worth considering encrypting the key itself while its stored locally, to prevent someone from taking the cleartext key and using it to decrypt the videos for distribution.

For reference, Steam was developed by LimeLight, who specialize in that sort of thing. This isn't a foolproof system, but I doubt anyone would be dedicated enough to try to crack it, especially given your strong ethical stance.

I do not want to see this site go down, especially not to stupid Digital Rights Management policies. CA is not a faceless corporation with millions of dollars to throw at the market, uncaring of their restrictive DRM policies. If anyone should do DRM right, it is this website.

[Volatile]

Volatile I rectify: "Jason, since CA is something like a job for you, we can't blame you for your choices"

I mean that with all the efforts and time he puts in CA he has the right to treat it as a job and act accordingly (i.e. to do everything he deems good for it)

Volunteering 40 hours a week IS like a job, otherwise he should work at night...

Sorry dude i read ur post to quickly.

I thought you were implying that because its his job he cannot do this to his customers and that he has some kind of rules and regulations that he must uphold. And that he cant just remove downloads and increase prices etc.

After re-reading i realise what you mean . ^^ i appolagise for sounding like an ass.

[Volatile]

Steam used the big brother method, rechecking your account to see if it's really you every 20 seconds. This is great because they're not streaming videos, they're playing games.



As you said " there playing games" thast the point. You cannot video capture a game and then play it somewhere else because its just a video, this means that the STEAM system works because you have to login to load files decrypt stuff and input commands etc.

It wont work with videos...even if you found a way to make the player not work (and there are ways, some make the screen pure black on video capture) people could still use a home video camera and capture it that way download it back onto there PC and upload it to piracy sites. Sadly there is almost no 100% guaranteed way to stop pirates other than by only displaying the video in a room were people have to come and pay to watch it .........o no wait thats a cinema and people pirate films all the time...see ? cant stop it if people want to be an ass they will find a way.

[evilagram]

Of course it's impossible to stop someone, there's always a way to pirate it, but you can make it so annoying that it's not worth the effort.

On that note, Steam games have been pirated before, just it's very annoying to do.

The idea is to make it harder to pirate without inconveniencing the user. Given the system I just thought up, the only real feasible method for pirates is to videotape their screen, but who'd download that?

It's a bit tough to implement, but it would keep power in the hands of the users while making it too difficult for any but the most dedicated pirates to fiddle with. The resources are sitting there, the only hard part is coming up with a strange playback method for the screen, and getting a digital distribution system running.

I really do not think that making everyone subscribe to a lower quality service with a different distribution method will help curb piracy at all. Many people actually turn to piracy so they don't have to deal with such systems. I've heard all too many stories of someone going out to buy a game, then pirating a copy so they didn't have to deal with the DRM. Ask yourself who that hurts? The pirates are still getting the exact same service that the legitimate users are, just without the streaming, without logging in, and most importantly, without paying. Doing something like this WILL NOT HURT PIRACY, but it WILL HURT THE USERS, MEANING LESS PROFITS. IT MAY EVEN INCREASE PIRACY!

Increasing hassle on the user is not the way to go. However much we love the downloads provided here, some people will not want to pay. Changing it all to a streaming system, and requiring internet access to stream will not decrease piracy one iota, as the methods to crack those systems have been sitting in the public domain for eons.

We're on the same side here, just I think that everyone is approaching it from the wrong angle.

[Jason Manley]

pay attention. the piracy will stop. the only people who doubt me are those who don't know me well. Ive heard "thats impossible hundreds of times" and every single one of those people have been proven wrong. We shall see. In time we will know the reality of it.

If I can't solve it then I am fine with accepting failure and closing this place for good. Right now though, I am going to try the streaming system, the online atelier and another cool upgrade feature and if all goes well then the piracy will get cut in half or stop completely and we can continue to help artists around the world, including you.

To everyone,

Please support the remaining downloads coming out. The site really needs the support. We still need another server, more storage and have ever increasing bandwidth due to all the great stuff here. If you can get a vid please do so legitimately. CA needs the support and the help. What this site offers is worth far more than the fifteen bucks to get a video. Those supporting the videos are the real supporters of art here. So thanks to you all.


Best,


Jason




Of course it's impossible to stop someone, there's always a way to pirate it, but you can make it so annoying that it's not worth the effort.

On that note, Steam games have been pirated before, just it's very annoying to do.

The idea is to make it harder to pirate without inconveniencing the user. Given the system I just thought up, the only real feasible method for pirates is to videotape their screen, but who'd download that?

It's a bit tough to implement, but it would keep power in the hands of the users while making it too difficult for any but the most dedicated pirates to fiddle with. The resources are sitting there, the only hard part is coming up with a strange playback method for the screen, and getting a digital distribution system running.

I really do not think that making everyone subscribe to a lower quality service with a different distribution method will help curb piracy at all. Many people actually turn to piracy so they don't have to deal with such systems. I've heard all too many stories of someone going out to buy a game, then pirating a copy so they didn't have to deal with the DRM. Ask yourself who that hurts? The pirates are still getting the exact same service that the legitimate users are, just without the streaming, without logging in, and most importantly, without paying. Doing something like this WILL NOT HURT PIRACY, but it WILL HURT THE USERS, MEANING LESS PROFITS. IT MAY EVEN INCREASE PIRACY!

Increasing hassle on the user is not the way to go. However much we love the downloads provided here, some people will not want to pay. Changing it all to a streaming system, and requiring internet access to stream will not decrease piracy one iota, as the methods to crack those systems have been sitting in the public domain for eons.

We're on the same side here, just I think that everyone is approaching it from the wrong angle.

[Devere]

hey with content this good and a community this great, it just feels flipping good to contribute whenever we can. a true win win situation if there ever was one.

[jcaffoe]

Sadly, the days of theft aren't coming to an end.

This still doesn't solve your piracy problem. Anybody can easily just use capture software and distribute the captured stream freely across the net. Then you're left in the same predicament as before.

Changing the formats from downloads to streaming will also lessen the quality of the videos (not quality of production, you do a fine job Aaron and team). Even watching a stream in HD of someone doing a PS tutorial makes it difficult to decipher what their brush opacity is at.

I wish you the best of luck on your campaign against piracy.

Romance couldn't be more right.

Look at EA and their secu-rom service. Spore became one of the most pirated games of all time due to the limited install system EA decided to put on their game. All of these tricks to combat piracy are not just futile, they're seen as a challenge by that community. You may find that you'll be dealing with more pirates simply by trying to fight them.

Did you consider that your issue may not be piracy, but marketing? Have you tried reaching outside of just the CA community?

One of the most difficult things about digital distribution of content is making sure your consumer feels like they have obtained something tangible. I can tell you it was a bit easier for me to pay 60 dollars for Marko's DVD than it was for me to pay 15 for one of Jason Chan's downloads. The instruction I received was comparable, but having something to hold made the decision that much easier. Paying 25 dollars is a reeeallly tough sell for something I won't even own.

You're not hurting the pirates, Jason. Not only will they not be deterred, they have nothing to lose. They aren't the ones who would be buying the content, or going to workshops, or even posting on the forums. You are hurting the community who pays for this content and wants to support the site. And worse than that, you're trying to stir up feelings of guilt from your paying customers and longtime members of your community.

[evilagram]

pay attention. the piracy will stop. the only people who doubt me are those who don't know me well. Ive heard "thats impossible hundreds of times" and every single one of those people have been proven wrong. We shall see. In time we will know the reality of it.

If I can't solve it then I am fine with accepting failure and closing this place for good. Right now though, I am going to try the streaming system, the online atelier and another cool upgrade feature and if all goes well then the piracy will get cut in half or stop completely and we can continue to help artists around the world, including you.

The thing here is not accepting failure, or taking a risk. I personally am a gigantic supporter of Conceptart's ideals and practices and am immensely opposed to your strategy because I do not want to see them disappear.

This isn't a test of wills. This isn't about proving me or you wrong. This is about keeping the site running. Can you please explain to me how streaming the video will make it ANY harder for people to steal? Anyone can just pirate a copy of flash and a decompiler and use those to get to the videos. Even simpler than that, they can record it off their screen as it streams.

I am fundamentally opposed to this because I cannot bear to see you make the same mistake that the videogame companies are making. I cannot stand to see this site fall from something so simple.

When pirates see DRM, they take it as a challenge. They grow in resentment towards the publisher and make it their duty to not only steal it, but steal it in superior quality to what the users are getting. They see it as taking revenge and liberating the user from the harsh practices of the publisher.

Do you know why Valve is a success in the videogame industry? Because they are loyal to their customers, using Steam both as an anti-piracy measure and as a way of empowering the users by updating their games and keeping them connected. People don't pirate steam games because they don't want to lose Valve's support. They want to keep the benefits of the Steam network in their games.

Other companies like EA just jack up the DRM until it chokes the consumer, doing nothing to harm pirates who simply bypass it. Like mentioned, Spore is the most pirated game of 2008, with users having released hundreds of creatures in the game itself specifically to protest DRM.

Please don't fight me, and say things will turn out for the best, think this through. I do not want to see the site die for such an ironic reason.

[janni]

jcaffoe, i think we might have similar views on the file-sharing problem, but i don't realy understand from were you get that stirring the feeling of guilt thing you mention. not at all. also that hurting the communtiy thing... you know.. are you serious?

i personaly have trouble (and so should have anybody else, but those directly involved) judging the whole situation, since i don't know the numbers and i don't know where the numbers on the amount of sharing come from. that's interesting because almost all ways of tracking that stuff are more than faulty. from a technical point of view.

the only thing i can judge for sure is that jason shows a remarkable amount of dedication and i have big hopes that things will work out.

and also nobody here can realy judge the quality of the streams yet, nobody saw them. i think it's pretty obvious that jason will not give people something like youtube. i'm not concerned about quality at all.

and by the way. i found paying 15 bucks for a download TONS easier than paying 60 bucks for a dvd. i don't get why people need a dvd in their hands. it's so much more convenient. a couple mousclicks and couple of minutes file transfer and you can watch the video right away.

and convenience is key to give people a reason to buy. that's the way to think: it shouldn't be "how can we piss of pirates?" but "how can we make people wanna buy?".
i was concerned that jason might be repeating the same mistakes the various infamous anti-piracy groups are doing mindlessly over the last dacade since this whole sueing people stuff came up (and obviously nothing of that worked out so far), but i realy wanna see this new business model now. jason manley NEVER so far has came up with anything that wasn't anything but realy realy cool.

i have no doubt there is cool stuff coming up. and i have no clue how the new system realy works. i wanna see it. then i will judge.

good luck!

[James Kei]

This won't even be a challenge for pirates or hackers.
There is already consumer based software that acts as an external "overlay", and can record anything that is displayed on your screen and anything that travels though your speaker wires.

I think the better approach would be:
-Increase the price of the downloads to $25 (still a bargain)
-decrease the artists cut to 35/65. Don't worry, we will survive.
-Make the community well aware that it's very survival depends on supporting the downloads.
-Spend more money on outreach, advertising, and marketing. There are many potential, honest consumers that don't know these downloads exist.

The online classes are a good idea as well, and will bring in a little extra. Just be aware that less professionals will want to contribute their time in this way.

In the long run, if you gather enough fans of the product, support them with easy to obtain and hassle free content that can be viewed offline, morality will carry the cost of the servers.
The pirates can have their slice, as long as we can survive on whatever crumbs they leave us. I'm totally fine with that.

Also, as a last resort, I petition for littering the front page with flashing advertisements to gain revenue before deciding to shut down the whole community.
Even if it gives me seizures, It won't bother me a bit. :)
Subscription based access to the forums will fail. Trust me on this.


..............BTW, nobody pirates the AAU media because there really isn't any demand for it.

[daestwen]

This is a real shame, but unfortunately I can understand. :/

Just wish I could get my hands around the throats of those that made it all the worse for us.

I only have two of the downloads at current (The Greg Manches ones I got with my Dallas ticket... they are so awesome)... Even now that I'm working I'm only barely making enough to keep myself afloat. Instead I volunteer a lot of my time to this site for the Community Activities, and I've gone to all three workshops since the one in Seattle. (Probably why I have such a hard time saving my money!) I always saw the downloads as a luxury for me, for the same reason I can't really buy books or dvds any more, except when I want to treat myself.

I think the streaming vids are doable, though it does put some people at a disadvantage. It would be cool if they were made available at the workshops, though...? Dunno how you would do this if you really don't want to make DVDs of them, but I'm more likely to spend money when it's right in front of me (I always end up buying stuff at the workshops that I told myself I didn't have the money for...)

The online classes are an awesome idea. Let me know if you need any volunteer work - I'm not really qualified to be leading a class or anything but I've been teaching in the Game Design program at UOIT so if you wanted to give 'classroom feedback' or whatever I can totally volunteer some time to help organize stuff or whatever. Since I have way more time than I have money, it's the best I can offer right now!

[Daniel Andrews]

Id be the first to admit that I dont know or fully understand all the details and Losses piracy causes, I just know its allot. Especially for popular content.
In 8 months leaning to paint I have improved a great deal due to the content Ive purchased on CA.
4 month difference http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uSsuXGtamyw/SWrb35jXwyI/AAAAAAAABHU/Zs126Yimik8/s1600-h/Old%26New.jpg

Its well worth the small Price bump.
I hope the new system works out for the better. I can't help to be a little skeptical. Pirates are resourceful bastards.

All the best, with the new plans.

[MeTaL-Mike]

Kind of hypocritical to say that all of CA will go pay to play when earlier you said "CA as we all know it will continue to be free and open"!!!!!!!:(

It's like you're trying to scare someone here ...

[Arshes Nei]

and by the way. i found paying 15 bucks for a download TONS easier than paying 60 bucks for a dvd. i don't get why people need a dvd in their hands. it's so much more convenient. a couple mousclicks and couple of minutes file transfer and you can watch the video right away.


It never was convenient for me. I think people forget because broadband may be accessible for them (this is an area/facility issue, not a cost issue for me). I don't watch DVDs off my computer, I often spend time converting them just so I can watch them on my regular dvd player. That's why I was fine with paying for the dvds, even when they offered the downloads for cheaper.

I have to decide where to download as places with wi-fi often have dropped connections and too many drops disable me from getting a download.

Even if I had broadband, streaming is not an option for me. That's a certain time to have to pay attention with no rewind/pause etc. I don't have a lot of time to do that because I work on other projects (such is the life ...) I don't even really watch youtube, ...just no patience to watch something online when I got other things I got to monitor.

So if I got a week, I'll get the downloads I can this week and just have to say goodbye to content unless its released as dvds again.

[BlackGuy]

online atelier? Like something similar to animation mentor for concept artists and illustrators? That would be incredible.

[Jason Manley]

Romance couldn't be more right.

Look at EA and their secu-rom service. Spore became one of the most pirated games of all time due to the limited install system EA decided to put on their game. All of these tricks to combat piracy are not just futile, they're seen as a challenge by that community. You may find that you'll be dealing with more pirates simply by trying to fight them.

Did you consider that your issue may not be piracy, but marketing? Have you tried reaching outside of just the CA community?

One of the most difficult things about digital distribution of content is making sure your consumer feels like they have obtained something tangible. I can tell you it was a bit easier for me to pay 60 dollars for Marko's DVD than it was for me to pay 15 for one of Jason Chan's downloads. The instruction I received was comparable, but having something to hold made the decision that much easier. Paying 25 dollars is a reeeallly tough sell for something I won't even own.

You're not hurting the pirates, Jason. Not only will they not be deterred, they have nothing to lose. They aren't the ones who would be buying the content, or going to workshops, or even posting on the forums. You are hurting the community who pays for this content and wants to support the site. And worse than that, you're trying to stir up feelings of guilt from your paying customers and longtime members of your community.


This is not EA. This is uniquely noise free spot which I see as a welcoming home for artists who want to learn. As said, those who doubt. do not know me well. I am relentless when faced with a problem or challenge. I also have considerable resources and relationships with around 200 companies across multiple industries, legal avenues around the world and am very educated on international business law....including years of experience driven research on digital distribution, global biz, copyright law, including IP related civil matters. Honestly, I wouldn't want anyone else to handle this problem but me right now...though I would rather not be dealing with it at all. I am sorry folks will have to deal with the changes. It is my hope that folks here who really do support the site will prefer to see a simple change in distribution methods to no community at all.

DVD's have the same piracy problem as the downloads. CA cannot trust all those purchasing to show respect for education, creativity, and teaching. The problem is not CA. The problem is that many people buying downloads have no respect for what we try to do here in support of art, learning and sharing of knowledge.

Let's hope I'm right eh? I would prefer to see CA launch the Next-Gen Atelier Online, Professional Lecture Series, and Student Portfolio Development Services, than shutter the place. My motivations come from the right place. I have put in nearly fifteen thousand hours of volunteer time for this community since 2002. The changes may come from business decisions on the part of CA, but the growth and existence of it all comes from my heart. Always has.

It is not a marketing problem. We expect 75 million+ page views this year on the site. We have plenty of traffic. It is just time to root out the thieves and clean this place up. I tell you what...it's a respect issue. Sometimes respect has to be earned the hard way.

None of this has anything to do with guilt. I do not appreciate your garbage passive aggressiveness. Take it elsewhere please. This is not the place for it.

As far as what you are getting...Right now we are interested first in sharing knowledge. Knowledge that took years of professional and student experience to gather so the big art schools no longer had a monopoly on the language of art. The CA downloads are and were meant to solve that problem, along with all the rest of what we do, at least in the area of information sharing and demonstrations. Hell there are more demos available to watch now than I saw in two years at Ringling. Tens of thousands of dollars I paid for those. Didnt get to keep those either. I wasnt there to keep the demos..I was there for the info and knowledge. I do understand that people like having things...Once we solve the internet streaming/download piracy problem I shall return my attention to that. Happy? I would love to solve both. There are patents involved in that kind of thing. Patents worth creating anyway. If time allows, I am happy to give it a shot. I have an entire business plan and model built around that issue. Regardless if people here are more interested in some plastic than the valuable information about art, then it is probably not the right info for them. But I do plan on having more DVDs as time goes on. First, the piracy issue must be handled.

[Jason Manley]

I will look into a short term issue for people who have this problem after we do the switch.

It never was convenient for me. I think people forget because broadband may be accessible for them (this is an area/facility issue, not a cost issue for me). I don't watch DVDs off my computer, I often spend time converting them just so I can watch them on my regular dvd player. That's why I was fine with paying for the dvds, even when they offered the downloads for cheaper.

I have to decide where to download as places with wi-fi often have dropped connections and too many drops disable me from getting a download.

Even if I had broadband, streaming is not an option for me. That's a certain time to have to pay attention with no rewind/pause etc. I don't have a lot of time to do that because I work on other projects (such is the life ...) I don't even really watch youtube, ...just no patience to watch something online when I got other things I got to monitor.

So if I got a week, I'll get the downloads I can this week and just have to say goodbye to content unless its released as dvds again.

[Ghostbrush]

Jason you do what you have to do to combat the thieves, If this information has to be streamed, to me that does not seem like a massive issue, the information is invaluable, I have learned a shit ton from watching them and seriously the quality of the education is second to none, I would rather still have the learning experience than none at all.

Jason Thank you for doing your best for this community!


All the best


Alex

[Form]

i know you guys didnt want to do it for a while as you wanted to keep CA free from money/advertising and so on -- but perhaps its about time we saw a donation feature?

Now that it isnt just a 'cool community' but we can see actual problems with actual solutions being created/tackled, i think many would be willing to chip in for these specific causes. I would be happy to donate a small part of my freelance income to fighting things like the orphan works, privatisation of copyright, and so on. I have got almost all the MB dvds but would still be happy to throw 5 or ten dollars a week into the kitty so that all this shit can be sorted, and stay sorted. I think the fact that you have already started providing these solutions off your own shoulders should be proof enough that the donations wont go to waste.

I hope my suggestion doesnt offend.

[Jason Manley]

Kind of hypocritical to say that all of CA will go pay to play when earlier you said "CA as we all know it will continue to be free and open"!!!!!!!:(

It's like you're trying to scare someone here ...


First, you take my comment completely out of context. Entirely. If you are going to do so, the least you could do is not insult me at the same time.
A simple asking of what I meant would have solved your problem understanding. Actually reading the whole thread instead of just picking out whatever lines you wish to respond to would probably too. I know this is a complex issue but the insults are not necessary.

I have been clear. The way CA stays open and free is if the pay for educational upgrades in the community are supported and the piracy stops. That is the point of doing the new features. My time is volunteer. But I do feel it is my responsibility to do all I can to keep the site from closing or going full pay for everything. As said, if none of this works those are my last two options.

[Rist]

All good things come to an end. CA.org will come to an end, maybe in 5 years or a decade, or even a century, but it will come. These downloads were too good to be true from the moment I saw them.

This streaming service is just delayed news. For those who have a good connection and a willing to learn WILL pay for this. It is the information you are paying for after all.

I do wish for multiple options though! I want the choice of a day subscription, month subscription, and even an annual subscription. The day sub will be good for those who have a day off and wish to watch and learn specific videos. Monthly will be good for those who have less time and wish to watch when they like. Annual is for those who would like to do more than just watch videos, but to support the site and could possible have a 'Sponser' tag next to their name.

The most successful thing about Lynda.com is that the video clips are only .20min to 15min long. The videos are split into chapters and the chapters are split into sub-chapters, like pages from a book. Make the user able to see which video they saw last and also able to see a history of what they saw.

This streaming service requires much more than what you are offering now. I will only participate if the service is adaquate. There are other places to find art education, such as the Gnomes!

[Brun]

Jason I do hope u succeed in your fight against piracy.

Although it will be a long and hard way, I have full confidence in your methods, u proved us over and over again that u only want the best for the community.

And after reading a lot of post written by u, I can truly say that I believe that what u are doing will always be in the best of the community.

Thx for this Jason, I wish u luck

[~Faust~]

I purchased more downloads the past days than ever before, that announcement sure was a kick in the butt hehe

I have confidence that you will do everything possible to let CA survive, and I'm looking forward to where this place will evolve, I don't see a reason for pessimism.

[JohnMalcolm1970]

OK... just bought the new Jason Chan video :) I was looking back through my PayPal account and adding up how much I've spend on Massive Black downloads.... it's now $165 (not counting the book which was bought at my request as a gift to me).... and well worth every penny.

I must admit I am slightly disappointed with the plans to have a stream only service. I loved the fact I could pop my downloaded videos on a USB stick and take them into work to watch at lunchtime. Streaming won't work in this case as internet access at work is severely limited.

The price increase I can live with easily... it's still good value for money. I would be interested however in more of the downloadable content eventually being bundled up onto DVD.

What was wrong with the system you had in place? I thought each download was traceable?

I'm not sure that the community here have anything to do with the problem. People who use the forums and check them regularly will see a download become available and pretty much buy it straight away if it's of interest. People getting torrents probably have no real idea what Massive Black and ConceptArt are... they are probably just searching for "Photoshop tutorial"... some of them are a lost cause... but some I'm sure end up coming here and finding out what's going on.

Have you considered an approach to the owners of large torrent sites like PirateBay? Just explain the situation and see if they'll keep MassiveBlack stuff off their sites. I'm sure they see the distinction between yourselves and a large for profit movie company.

I know you have costs... most of us do what we can by buying what we want. I can think of at least three large corporations that have probably benefitted enough from this site to have some obligation to help support it: Adobe, Corel and Wacom.

[kraal]

To everyone,

Please support the remaining downloads coming out. The site really needs the support. We still need another server, more storage and have ever increasing bandwidth due to all the great stuff here. If you can get a vid please do so legitimately. CA needs the support and the help. What this site offers is worth far more than the fifteen bucks to get a video. Those supporting the videos are the real supporters of art here. So thanks to you all.


Best,


Jason
ok that right there was the best thing said right now.

btw an online lecture series is actually something that i feel is a good option. I am rescently married and have 2 step kids so right now travel isnt an option that is why i was wanting downloads from the last one to be available.....

[Theking78]

pay attention. the piracy will stop. the only people who doubt me are those who don't know me well.

I cannot believe you're so confident about this.... You've done great in many things on your life ond of course one of them is MB, so I really understand your angry about piracy of your work, but you can't be the one which will stop the piracy, sorry mate....

Piracy won't stop because you stream the video instead of let people download them but you can decrease the level of piracy in other ways if you want and I'm gonna give you some examples now.

1]I attended an online course with Don Seegmiller about painting the figure. I paind $400 for 8 weeks of teaching. Don let us download several videos about painting the figure (they'r made in the same way you do yours, they were really great, with audio and high resolution , etc.). Noone of this video can be downloaded from torrent or p2p platforms right now and the cours has ended 2 months ago. I paid for this course I've downloaded great content that I can watch again and again but I WON'T SHARE IT FOR FREE WITH OTHER PEOPLE, first of all for the respect I have about Don's work.

2]Some Ballistic book let the first 300 people who preorder the book download a free bonus video which won't be available anywhere else, like Linda Bergkvist one for instance and as far as I know also this kind of video are not available on torrent or p2p.

3]Maybe I'm wrong but If I search through the torrents site I cannot find any new video of MB since you wrote that MB was really suffering from piracy, so maybe your message has arrived even to the people who haven't had a legal behaviour in the past. Only the very old videos are available and unfortunately will be forever I think.

This examples above imo proove of because I think doing streaming won't work: the piracy won't stop and you'll have less honest people buying your video (at least one: me).

I think you should try to focus on questions like "how can we obtain the deserved found for MB by honest people who loves our work?" and not "how can I stop the piracy?" because to stop the piracy (that again I said it won't stop) you're makig sad honest people who loves your work.

An idea to increase MB found can be doing some art classes as CGSociety do.
Many people out ther would be happy to pay for having the possibility to be teached by one of your great artists.
Another way can be raise up the price of your downloads: again honest people will buy them and if someone will stole them you'll have anyway more money coming because of the higher price.
Another way again is to let people pay to be part of a restricted community who can download content (if Don Seegmiller videos are not available on pirate platform I think this can work also for yours).

Everybody here is giving you some ideas to let you think well about going into the stream direction, I hope you'll reconsider this at the light of some facts we're telling to you.
It's we that have supported MB so far... please listen to our voice and don't take personally a war againt piracy over all the other things because this won't lead you in making the correct decisions. Don't think about bad people, think about how you can get from honest people the things that you need.

Good luck!

[Arshes Nei]

Heh, this isn't new to me cuz I have been around those (like a long term relationship) that had a similar passion like Jason, but maybe he's representing his logo a bit because he's fired up...angry cockerel (but completely understandable) :P It's not anything that I'm angry with him for, I guess I'm just used to seeing someone passionate for their creation.

The thing is for me, as cold as it is going to come off, if it becomes even less "convenient" I shop elsewhere. If you've been to the ghetto you start noticing the stores where they lock up the deodorant, and burglar bars greet you more than a person's face. Once the security is so high where I don't even feel welcome and feel more like a criminal for just even coming in, I head out.

It's simple as that, if a store no longer becomes a "convenience" I see no reason to shop there. Does that mean I hate the people who have a living to make that had to put in those security features to run it? Not at all, but I'm just a consumer.

If I have to go to "Trader Joes" and pay a premium price, not feel like a criminal and get the food I want, I do it. I can say goodbye to whatever store that is less convenient.

The videos are the same. If I can find someone who has similar content I can learn from, I can take it home and view it at any time I want with less hassle, I'll go for it. If that means going to the dreaded and banned "G" place to get videos to learn from, I'll do it. I've been able to convert them still :P

One more question since I now have to sit here at a wi fi most of my day to get them before they're gone. Is there a stupid "shopping cart" function...it's like I'm trying to buy multiple ones at once and it's a pain.

[Rist]

Reading through the comments it seems streaming videos seems to me to be the last resort. Would be a shame to skip some of the other options.

[lewisaurus]

I predict your tutorial sales will drop to almost nil.

I don't mind paying a reasonable price for a download, and I have done so on several occasions from this site as well as others.
I just don't see the value in a streaming media and can't imagine anyone paying real money for it.

Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but I doubt it.

Best of luck,

Travis

[evilagram]

Jason, your dedication to this site is unparalleled.

I still don't trust your methods, but if you are so stuck on trying them, then there's little I can do to stop you.

I'm going to keep track of anyone torrenting this stuff and personally root them out if I can.

If anyone here is stealing this stuff, then please never show your face here again. It's an insult to everything this site stands for.

[Jason Manley]

I predict your tutorial sales will drop to almost nil.

I don't mind paying a reasonable price for a download, and I have done so on several occasions from this site as well as others.
I just don't see the value in a streaming media and can't imagine anyone paying real money for it.

Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but I doubt it.

Best of luck,

Travis



If you don't see the value in education or this information. That's ok with me.

[Idiot Apathy]

Just a toolbox idea, but it seems that the way of the digital distribution future is advertising; you can't steal what is given away for free. I am of course not suggesting that the tutorials are given away for free, I have no doubt that they are profitable; but it comes as no surprise that they are not profitable enough to keep 5 terabytes paid for. I of course know that the incorporation of advertising is not and has never been your wish, but I do believe it can be done with finesse and integrated according to the philosophies of ConceptArt.org and I can't think of anyone better to pioneer such a method as yourself.

[kraal]

If you don't see the value in education or this information. That's ok with me.

that wasnt what was said ..... to me you seem more about punishing pirates and making a profit that you do about 'education'

[Daniel Andrews]

So much heat on this.
As a method to prevent or slow theft. I dont think its a bad idea at all. There are plenty who would pay $25, if they stopped and weighed out how much it would cost to go to school to learn the same thing.
As far as I know they volunteer there time to make the Demo's and offer them at very reasonable prices. For that they have been spat on.
Things will change. People will adapt.

People may not purchase as frequently, but if something seems worth it or in there general or direct interest, they will still get it.
If not buy a DVD somewhere else and drop $40 up to $70 for something to keep in your library.
Another option is to read a Book.

[XanaChama]

I don't know if I would pay to stream something. If the price goes up? I'm less likely. I like having portable media and prefer to "own" something. I think there should be premium membership for CA though. Some additional features for a fee. Hopefully I can get some of the downloads before streaming goes up, money allowing.

[The Crazy Dude SRD]

Kraal, If he didn't care about education he wouldn't be giving it away so cheaply... $500US for all the vids downloaded in compare to the cost of moving to whichever... + all the bills after moving wherever... + the thousands of dollars for going to where whatever art school.... I say that they aren't all that bad for education... If server/bandwith/video production/time out of busy days/forum bandwidth costs/<insert any other costs for this community and all that exists for it> issues didn't exist I think they wouldn't have any issue of giving them away... But like any other resource... it costs money. Just be glad that they aren't going to be pricing them in the hundreds for the 15 minute vids.

It is certainly a shame that some asshole fucktards that lurk in this comunity have caused such a disruption and that if they had any balls they would personally go to each and every torrent site and pettition their comunity to cease and disist download of the torrent for reasons of honor and good common sense (btw I realize that would never happen)

If I had the programming knowledge in order to hack into and implant a super virus that would fry every fucking thing that downloads those torrents I would in a heartbeat in order to stop this whole thing and allow things to continue the direction of downloads via CA... (hint hint any programmers out their in the masses reading)

Personally i will try to see what I can do to support a comunity that has helped me evolve and find the knowledge that I have. It's all their is to it.

[ethan karnopp]

As it is an open thread, I'm assuming it is open for the purpose of discussion on points and counterpoints and such, I hope only to be taken seriously and not be the recipient of passive aggressive comments in my sketchbook.

I'm just not a fan of DRM. I work hard for my money and spend my money on things that I deem necessary. There is no real way to legitimize piracy, but there is no real way to legitimize restricting your audience and treating all of them as thieves. I love CA with all of my heart, I genuinely do. Some things on here upset me, but as one of the kids that literally grew up on CA.org I can say this forum has very much made me who I am today. Now as for me personally, (and I don't know if I missed whether this was addressed earlier, if it was I apologize) there is no way in hell, given my current financial status, that I would pay 25 dollars to watch a video once. Alternately, I would be more than happy to throw in 25 dollars to watch a streaming video I can access at any time. Actually, the latter is somewhat preferable to downloading for me, as my external hard drive just crashed, reminding me that hosted data is somewhat of a blessing (at least when properly backed up).

I'm not trying to be snotty here, but if conceptart.org is truely here to cater to the needs of students, gauging prices to 25 dollars per view is a huge disservice to your customer base. I don't know if that is the intent, I hope it is going to be more of an access pass to content rather than a one-shot deal. I know Jason has every right to charge whatever he wants, but I also know we have every right not to buy it. That's not a passive aggressive threat, nor an insult to Jason, it's just what I believe to be the underlying ideology of most of the opposition to this.

[evilagram]

Here's a brilliant idea, lets put it up to a poll. Ask the people whether they think the site would work better this way, or whether it should try something else.

[kraal]

Here's a brilliant idea, lets put it up to a poll. Ask the people whether they think the site would work better this way, or whether it should try something else.

at this point i dont think what we think matters

[Brashen]

I'm curios to know what happened to those people who were being prosecuted and what the outcome was.

I also vote for a donation button. But please dont make it PAYPAL only. moneybookers would be a nice choice as well since they accept every country.

[Lewis-Long]

It is inconvenient for me to wake up most mornings and go into my art college to learn and seek advice from my tutors and peers but I still pay £3,145 and face rises of £50+ each year to attend. It doesn't stop me from learning the skills I need to get me paid work in the future.

I think the same applies to this situation of having the inconvenience of not being able to carry the tutorials with us on our laptops or portable media players. It sucks but we still get to learn the skills that could win us jobs in the future.

If we all support Jason on whatever decision he makes we can get past this I'm sure. All will become clearer when the streaming is tested. I can understand too the frustration of people who physically cannot gain access to the tutorials anymore because of streaming rather than content downloadable to their computers. Maybe some special delivery methods could be worked out for them. Although I'm sure some people would take joy in exploiting this through dishonesty.

There's a cool program call spotify to stream music for free that uses the mentioned 'Big Brother' method and uses fairly discrete advertisements between tracks that you listen to which allows for an extra little bit of income. Then if you pay $10 a month the advertisements are missed out. Not to suggest that you make the content free or to go against the streaming idea but it may be better for you to keep finances afloat so this learning resource can continue. Either that or ditch the online tutorials all together and make more regular workshops and events around the world. Although I'm sure that would cost more money to setup than I understand.

Whatever happens there are members that will do whatever they need within reason to get to there tutorials and learn. We are not consuming music or film or video games here. We are learning and as such we HAVE to adapt to support CA.org and continue learning or face losing it altogether.

It's sad that it has came to this. I hope I can still download the new J.Chan tutorials :(

[Penumbra]

Mr. Manley,

You are going to do what you feel you must but please keep in mind that those impulse buys that you mentioned in an earlier post are what can make or break a business. Proportionately I find a thousand people that are willing to spend 25 dollars for every 10 that are willing to spend a 100.

I've had employees steal money from my cashbag, other vendors at artshows steal original art from my booth and teenagers steal prints at conventions. Shrinkage is a part of doing business. I account for it, take sensable measures against it and feel bad when it happens(the employee that stole from me was previously a friend that had been at my wedding). I don't, won't let it stop me from doing what I want to do with my business or my art.

I have been self employed and making a living doing art since 1988 and one thing that I have noticed consistently is that Nothing works the same way forever. You want to evolve CA into a self-sustaining, more than that, a profitable venture. The addition of the educational format makes sense, especially when the economy must be impacting CA and MB as it is everyone else.

What doesn't make sense is discontinuing the things that are still valuable because of a hurdle. A hurdle that everyone...everyone who produces downloadable content has had to come to terms with.

I'm glad to know that CA is so personal for you that you consider the theft a direct afront to you. I'm glad because I don't want to find out that it's just another storefront in the end.

I don't believe that it is.

[Pandora's Eyes]

jason,

with all due respect, your comments about this begin to sound more like a personal crusade than a viable business solution.

you insist the piracy will stop. how do you know this? you are not the first to try and curb piracy, whether from dvds or from downloadable content, piracy continues globally and will continue to do so.

has the music industry stopped mp3 downloads? has the film industry stopped dvd copying and movie downloads? the comic book industry has not stopped the massive influx of digital comics, weekly comic books are scanned in page by page and made available online as digital comics similar to a pdf file.

try to look at this from a retail point of view. while it is prudent of any business to take measures to decrease theft it is impossible to fully eliminate it. but, the golden rule is that attempts to decrease theft must not sacrifice the customer experience within the store.

you are trying too hard to build a business strategy around piracy. instead, use the statistics to see how many actual download/dvd sales you may reasonably expect from legitimate customers and price the downloads/dvds based on that amount. that way, the production costs are taken into account and the bottom line is preserved. piracy at this point becomes irrelevant.

as of now your comments about stopping piracy or else has taken on the tone of an ultimatum and that is not the appropriate approach to encourage fans of CA to rally around their community and make it a success.

you have put in a lot of work in this community and perhaps that is why this is such a personal issue for you. your reaction is certainly passionate and shows you are offended by the piracy, rightfully so. but business decisions should be removed of personal passion and cause.

i reiterate, for all our sake, open an all-community poll. do market research. see how many CA members would pay for streaming video versus downloadable content or dvds. also see how many CA members would pay membership fees, whether for CA in general or for member-exclusive services for the site.

but chief argument against streaming video is that it will assuredly ruin the quality of the content. how will you stream the nox video, around two hours per vid, at the same resolution it is currently in? chapters? segments?

the way the video stands now one may watch it in full without interruption. i myself have edited the two nox files into one so i may watch the entire four plus hour process in one uninterrupted sitting.

that is all. i am beginning to repeat myself.
please, do not do this.

[Jason Manley]

that wasnt what was said ..... to me you seem more about punishing pirates and making a profit that you do about 'education'

That is completely ignorant. I have helped build three education programs within CA...the workshops, the downloads and the school. the school charges less money than it costs to run it. the downloads were offered at a quarter of the price of any of the competition, and the workshops see every penny go into them or additional server upgrades for the community to use for free. I have never drawn a single penny from conceptart.org after contributing fifteen thousand hours of volunteer time. What have you done for the art community? Ask yourself that. CA is not about profit. CA is about giving and sharing. It has always been.

My patience runs thin. That is all. I will not continue to do what I do above if people keep stealing from the effort. Ya follow?

CA has done nothing but good..giving scholarships, doing training, promoting artists, changing lives, providing jobs to artists, building careers, built relationships (personal and professional)... all that. Please think before you post.

[Jason Manley]

Just a toolbox idea, but it seems that the way of the digital distribution future is advertising; you can't steal what is given away for free. I am of course not suggesting that the tutorials are given away for free, I have no doubt that they are profitable; but it comes as no surprise that they are not profitable enough to keep 5 terabytes paid for. I of course know that the incorporation of advertising is not and has never been your wish, but I do believe it can be done with finesse and integrated according to the philosophies of ConceptArt.org and I can't think of anyone better to pioneer such a method as yourself.

Already tried. No one was interested. Hit all appropriate companies including corel, wacom, autodesk..you name it...there is no interest in this model.

[Jason Manley]

no one said it was per view. that would be silly.

:)


As it is an open thread, I'm assuming it is open for the purpose of discussion on points and counterpoints and such, I hope only to be taken seriously and not be the recipient of passive aggressive comments in my sketchbook.

I'm just not a fan of DRM. I work hard for my money and spend my money on things that I deem necessary. There is no real way to legitimize piracy, but there is no real way to legitimize restricting your audience and treating all of them as thieves. I love CA with all of my heart, I genuinely do. Some things on here upset me, but as one of the kids that literally grew up on CA.org I can say this forum has very much made me who I am today. Now as for me personally, (and I don't know if I missed whether this was addressed earlier, if it was I apologize) there is no way in hell, given my current financial status, that I would pay 25 dollars to watch a video once. Alternately, I would be more than happy to throw in 25 dollars to watch a streaming video I can access at any time. Actually, the latter is somewhat preferable to downloading for me, as my external hard drive just crashed, reminding me that hosted data is somewhat of a blessing (at least when properly backed up).

I'm not trying to be snotty here, but if conceptart.org is truely here to cater to the needs of students, gauging prices to 25 dollars per view is a huge disservice to your customer base. I don't know if that is the intent, I hope it is going to be more of an access pass to content rather than a one-shot deal. I know Jason has every right to charge whatever he wants, but I also know we have every right not to buy it. That's not a passive aggressive threat, nor an insult to Jason, it's just what I believe to be the underlying ideology of most of the opposition to this.

[Jason Manley]

at this point i dont think what we think matters

Hmm...what you think and what i hear in here is it wont work..you cant do it..youll never stop it..blah blah blah...garbage. If you don't want the streaming vids, don't buy them.

Have some faith. I have never done this community wrong. I built this place from scratch over seven years. I think I know a hell of a lot about what will work and what wont.

Some of the things that have been suggested have either been fully considered or tried already. I do hear what people are saying. I have even taken good notes.

[Itazura Usagi]

I totally agree with James Kei in post #74.

When I happened upon the downloadable videos after over a month's worth of visiting conceptart.org I felt like I found a secret treasure! Honestly it is not totally apparent to new members or lurkers strangely enough, even though there is a huge half banner now at the top of the page! There is so much to see here it is weird but it can be easy to overlook (I think years of Facebook and Myspace checking has made me immune to banner ads) . Since I found the download area though I have downloaded all of the content and I look forward to anything massive black has to offer, clearly you guys are extremely serious about providing the best in anything you do. I talked to a couple of friends of mine who are familiar with the site and they too admitted that it took a while before they learned about the downloads!

I really feel it would increase sales if information about the videos were more propagated (that sounds obvious, I know, but that's my point).

Someone mentioned an arrangement with Imagine FX to let their readers know about conceptart.org, it's need for member support and the amazing content available for those support dollars. Is that possible?

[Jason Manley]

I will not be sharing my solutions to this problem with you. They are solutions too. Doubters...so many doubters. We will offer a great streaming service and the company we work with for the server distribution has global reach. People will be able to watch the vids at their leisure. The only difference is they will be within private areas of CA and not on your computer.

Have some faith.

Yes, I do take theft personally. Considering the amount of free work I give this place and the amount of volunteers involved who make it all possible...man...its amazing what people do to help this place. Those doing so have my hugest thanks. Those coming here and stealing and screwing over everyone who gives so much..yeah I take personal offense to that.

However, I am fully aware of business matters and I believe we are doing the right thing. This is not a spur of the moment decision. I have spent months researching which directions to go and well...there was no solution on the market...you are right. :)

There are a number of services being managed and researched. I have a five year plan in place for this community and there are brilliant minds building the foundations of the long term vision for this amazingly talented network. I think people should have a little faith.


Jason

jason,

with all due respect, your comments about this begin to sound more like a personal crusade than a viable business solution.

you insist the piracy will stop. how do you know this? you are not the first to try and curb piracy, whether from dvds or from downloadable content, piracy continues globally and will continue to do so.

has the music industry stopped mp3 downloads? has the film industry stopped dvd copying and movie downloads? the comic book industry has not stopped the massive influx of digital comics, weekly comic books are scanned in page by page and made available online as digital comics similar to a pdf file.

try to look at this from a retail point of view. while it is prudent of any business to take measures to decrease theft it is impossible to fully eliminate it. but, the golden rule is that attempts to decrease theft must not sacrifice the customer experience within the store.

you are trying too hard to build a business strategy around piracy. instead, use the statistics to see how many actual download/dvd sales you may reasonably expect from legitimate customers and price the downloads/dvds based on that amount. that way, the production costs are taken into account and the bottom line is preserved. piracy at this point becomes irrelevant.

as of now your comments about stopping piracy or else has taken on the tone of an ultimatum and that is not the appropriate approach to encourage fans of CA to rally around their community and make it a success.

you have put in a lot of work in this community and perhaps that is why this is such a personal issue for you. your reaction is certainly passionate and shows you are offended by the piracy, rightfully so. but business decisions should be removed of personal passion and cause.

i reiterate, for all our sake, open an all-community poll. do market research. see how many CA members would pay for streaming video versus downloadable content or dvds. also see how many CA members would pay membership fees, whether for CA in general or for member-exclusive services for the site.

but chief argument against streaming video is that it will assuredly ruin the quality of the content. how will you stream the nox video, around two hours per vid, at the same resolution it is currently in? chapters? segments?

the way the video stands now one may watch it in full without interruption. i myself have edited the two nox files into one so i may watch the entire four plus hour process in one uninterrupted sitting.

that is all. i am beginning to repeat myself.
please, do not do this.

[Jason Manley]

We already are working with ImagineFX. That magazine was built from artists from within CA. I have a lot of respect for that group.

I appreciate the input about further noise within the system. That is an easy fix.

[Muz]

I have faith in you jason, if you say you can do it then im sure it can be done. Having so many doubters only makes victory so much more glorious.

[Jason Manley]

Thanks. I agree with much of what you have said.

The economy has had no impact on MB or CA. Games and education are doing better than ever and the business model I built for MB is now the standard best practice for international development happening in the industry. MB is evolving..so is CA. Fortunately we are agile groups.

CA is doing great, with the exception of the theft issue. The other services like paid memberships (yes some may be interested...clearly)...or the lecture series (there is interest there too) are all different areas with different members being interested. The only difference in what we are doing moving forward is that we are going to cease letting people keep the quicktime files. With the current system being implemented, they will be able to access them when they log into CA though (we are looking at one other option this week though)...either will work just fine. If some do not want the streaming stuff then they can look for files to download elsewhere.

I think my business acumen has been demonstrated here for years. I am not making decisions which will harm the business interests of this community. If anything, the new services we look at are major upgrades and will help a lot of people. The small percentage who are not interested in learning because they have to stream it will have to change with the times. The funny thing is, that when we first started with downloads there was discussion about how no one would do it because they couldnt have the dvd. Yes you are right...absolutely...times change.


Mr. Manley,

You are going to do what you feel you must but please keep in mind that those impulse buys that you mentioned in an earlier post are what can make or break a business. Proportionately I find a thousand people that are willing to spend 25 dollars for every 10 that are willing to spend a 100.

I've had employees steal money from my cashbag, other vendors at artshows steal original art from my booth and teenagers steal prints at conventions. Shrinkage is a part of doing business. I account for it, take sensable measures against it and feel bad when it happens(the employee that stole from me was previously a friend that had been at my wedding). I don't, won't let it stop me from doing what I want to do with my business or my art.

I have been self employed and making a living doing art since 1988 and one thing that I have noticed consistently is that Nothing works the same way forever. You want to evolve CA into a self-sustaining, more than that, a profitable venture. The addition of the educational format makes sense, especially when the economy must be impacting CA and MB as it is everyone else.

What doesn't make sense is discontinuing the things that are still valuable because of a hurdle. A hurdle that everyone...everyone who produces downloadable content has had to come to terms with.

I'm glad to know that CA is so personal for you that you consider the theft a direct afront to you. I'm glad because I don't want to find out that it's just another storefront in the end.

I don't believe that it is.

[Jason Manley]

It is of note, that thanks to a very good friend with a brilliant mind, that there may be a time in the future that we can have downloads again. For at least all of 2009 there will be no downloads after the streaming service is implemented.

[fersteger]

It's gonna be pretty cool when it turns out that Jason Manley does end internet piracy once and for all. I mean, he did only start this site, the workshops, the best art studio in the modern world, a fricking school responsible for what will probably be the first generation of artists to surpass the previous generation since the Renaissance, and some other stuff I'm sure. Someone really oughta get a marble statue of this guy in the town square already.

But whatever happened with the legal action against the pirates? They all busted yet or what?

[Jason Manley]

My first and foremost concern is piracy on CA.

Legal details are not being discussed, nor will they be.

In civil law, such suits can take upwards of three years to get through.

[MeTaL-Mike]

I kind of do and don't want to insult you man. Most of the time i read your posts, it feels like you're wearing blinders and look at things from only one perspective. I know that's not the case but i do get that idea. There's a big possibility that i misunderstand your points, i'm sorry for that, let's just blame my fucked up English ok? :D

I think you're doing a great job with MB and CA and all. without this place many ppl (including myself) would not develop the way we did, but the fact is that piracy is (in my opinion) impossible to completely stop!! I hope you will find a good solution to this problem. Good luck.

[Samuel Gray]

Jason I do have faith in your decisions and I realize why you are doing them. And I am very appreciative of your time and effort given to this site and this community. I attended the workshop and have purchased at least 5 downloads from here. This website and the people inside it have taught me more than any other schooling. This goes along with most of the people here as well. But, you have to realize that people are never going to fully believe something, when, for so long it has worked out a different way. It goes with a lot of other things in life. You have to realize that people are going to doubt you every day of your life. At some point in my life everyone that I care the most about has doubted me about something. I understand where you are coming from and I understand your frustration from some of the disagreeing responses, but I know you saw it coming. If anyone can realize by now they should know what you are going to do whether they agree or not so why not give a little faith? I will at least give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Jason Manley]

I kind of do and don't want to insult you man. Most of the time i read your posts, it feels like you're wearing blinders and look at things from only one perspective. I know that's not the case but i do get that idea. There's a big possibility that i misunderstand your points, i'm sorry for that, let's just blame my fucked up English ok? :D

I think you're doing a great job with MB and CA and all. without this place many ppl (including myself) would not develop the way we did, but the fact is that piracy is (in my opinion) impossible to completely stop!! I hope you will find a good solution to this problem. Good luck.


Well if you do wish to insult me I would suggest otherwise, given my mood on this subject. Honestly, I will probably ban the next person who does it. CA has never tolerated that...especially with the mods. Check the how to get banned thread in the lounge. It is clearly stated. I do appreciate the supportive words though...and I appreciate disagreement...I would not be where I am now or have made it this far if I was surrounded by yes men.

I have looked at this problem for going on a year and a half now. Some of yall are coming in and looking at it for the first time and I doubt any of you have spent months on end working on solving the stuff. I currently am not looking to solve all internet piracy...just here on the site...and in that instance I believe it can be done. Yes I am now down to decision time...and that is probably why you see me being one sided on the matter. If it doesnt work we can always go back to the way it was. But as said, I think we even have a solution to the downloads issue but that will take some months and money to implement.

[kidult]

Has anyone suggested a donate button to help with payments for the site. I know you cant ever know how much will be donated a month but surely could help? Maybe give the person who donates the most a free crit from Dobsky or a hi-res pic of some sorts.
These vids have been super helpfull and super cheap - even for me coming from Africa with a crappy exchange rate!
Hope the streaming works on my side and really looking forward to the online classes.

My only gripe is slight price increase and the possible prices of the online classes.....everyone leaves us poor 3rd world country blokes out cos the pricing seems reasonable to them.....That's why i buy from this site! Guess 25 bucks is still pretty cheap.

[Rist]

Chances are those who are being insolent about the changes are those who either have a rough internet connection and would have a tough time with this or those who are new and do not know you guys well enough.

From what I have read its like this: we purchase the 'download' just as before, but now instead of downloading it we have to log in with the username which purchased the 'download' and watch it through a website player similar to YouTube.

Seems fine with me, Mr. Manley has earned to be respected, so show a little.

[Brashen]

Man we are so bloody selfish. Here's a guy, or a group of guys, trying to 'spoon feed' us information that took years to develop themselves and for fucking pennies I might add, and the only thing we can do to support them is complain and whine about how it will inconvenience us.

Sure it sucks that some measures and services here will be unusable by some. ( I live in Lebanon we pay $50 for 2.5GB bandwidth so I'm one of those people) but hey show me another place that truly has that Family Sharing Info feel that CA provides us with and that has contributed so much to help various people get to where they are today and I will be your bitch slave forever.

But if you cant shut up and let them do what they need to do to keep this site running and awesome for the rest of us.

Jason and the guys this is long over due but thank you, thank you for the copious amounts of information you provided for very little in return. Thank you for bringing together the best of the best. And thank you for helping make a better future for us artists.

[lewisaurus]

If you don't see the value in education or this information. That's ok with me.


Of course I see the value in the in the information, It's the manner in which It is distributed that I'm questioning.

I certainly understand where you're coming from and why you would be led to this course of action. I don't know a single artist (myself included) that hasn't been through this on form or another.

In the end I trust your motives and any decisions you make regarding the operation of CA.

Travis

[Ghostbrush]

Man we are so bloody selfish. Here's a guy, or a group of guys, trying to 'spoon feed' us information that took years to develop themselves and for fucking pennies I might add, and the only thing we can do to support them is complain and whine about how it will inconvenience us.

Sure it sucks that some measures and services here will be unusable by some. ( I live in Lebanon we pay $50 for 2.5GB bandwidth so I'm one of those people) but hey show me another place that truly has that Family Sharing Info feel that CA provides us with and that has contributed so much to help various people get to where they are today and I will be your bitch slave forever.

But if you cant shut up and let them do what they need to do to keep this site running and awesome for the rest of us.

Jason and the guys this is long over due but thank you, thank you for the copious amounts of information you provided for very little in return. Thank you for bringing together the best of the best. And thank you for helping make a better future for us artists.


:yayca: listen to this

[Daniel Andrews]

Faith and Respect is all I have for the CA forum and those who keep the wheels turning.
Its pretty obvious that Jason and his friends/resources know what there doing.
People all over the net have talked about how inovative MB & CA have been for the art community. Im sure they can figure out a great way for us to view a few video's.

[SHAP00PI]

What needs to be done will be done, no amount of complaining or bickering is going to shake loose monthes or years of planning and number crunching, and wanting that is a waste of time.

Jason, you have my undivided respect and loyalty, I admire you as not only a buisnessman, but a person, and of course, as a friend, your love for this community and it's members is unseen in todays selfish society.

Please keep doing what your doing, and know this 1 aussie is supporting your decisions, great work mate.

[Pic]

I posted a comment early on in this thread saying that I didn't think it was possible, but looking into it a bit more and seeing Jasons determination...perhaps it will on this site...it'll be impressive when it happens.

Piracy aside, I would like to know more about how the streaming videos and how they are going to work.
Do we buy them once and then watch them as many times as we like due to them being linked somehow to our accounts? Will they be offered in chapters or one large chunk of video? If you break each video purchase into a few stream chapters it would be easy on people with poor internets.

[kraal]

ok let me stop saying what won't work and what i won't do...... Jason i trust you on this make it work and tell me I told you so as I continue downloading :)

[Kazan]

I can understand the frustration. I work in a games studio that focuses on digital download games (as a programmer, art is just a hobby for me) so I'm no stranger to people stealing my hard work. I hate to say this but I think these new ideas will just increase the amount of piracy. Games are hard to protect from pirates, but video is nearly impossible.

Digital download isn't retail, and it can't work like retail. That's not to say it can't be profitable despite the pirates. In my opinion it's all about providing value. We've released two games recently. One on the iPhone which was released at $15, sold almost nothing, then was discounted to 99 cents and still did poorly and was massively pirated. The second one, everyone who made it fought against the publishers to get released as cheaply as possible and has done really well. It's better to sell 50000 copies at $5 than 5000 at $15.

The average user is going to do a cost evaluation. Pirating a CA download is going to "cost" them in time to find it, the guilt in being a cheap scumbag, and the risk of being sued by Jason. However for some people that's cheaper than $15/$25. My advice would be to balance the equation in your favour. You can't stop piracy, but you can make it better value to buy your goods than pirate them. Maybe give custom icons / xbox acheivement style points for CA members who buy downloads etc.

Since I'm a game programmer (and huge nerd) here is how I would write the AI for a potential download customer...

Purchase:

PLUS
Value of Goods
Official customer incentives (Support, forum bonuses etc.)
Feeling good for supporting CA

MINUS
Cost (How much is $15 / $25 to them?)
Difficulty of purchasing (Credit cards, unsure of paypal)
DRM (Is it more annoying to be a legitimate customer than a pirate?)

Pirate:

PLUS
Value of Goods

MINUS
Guilt (For some people this will be a lot, for others nothing at all)
Danger of being sued
Difficulty of piracy

The customer will subconciously work out each equation, then go with the option presenting the best value. The part people always forget about are the large number of people that work out that equation and decide that neither are good value. Selling to those people is a far better option than fighting a losing battle with pirates.

Subscriptions also cost less mentally than a once off purchase. I'd happily pay $10 a month for a CA video magazine for a whole year, than spend $120 in a lump sum.

The other option would be in-video advertising. I bet that most people at CA don't own a any / a lot of / all of the MB downloads because they're not willing to pay $15/$25 for them, but aren't willing to pirate them either. Those people are lost customers.

Anyway, I really hope this post is useful. I really like CA.org and as such I'm off to buy a few downloads before they go up to $25 :)

[Jason Manley]

People streaming can watch as many times as they wish.

I have the final tests coming in tomorrow. Will update you all as soon as the authorization center is chosen.

Best,


Jason

[Jason Manley]

Your game studio is not ConceptArt.Org. And your group does not have one singular point of distribution. If it does, then you can put a big dent in the problem...if not stop it. What is impossible for you is not impossible for me in that I am not looking at the same solutions you are. It's impossible that there is water on mars. Oh wow, look at the water on mars. If not for peoples belief that there could be, there would be no technology to find out.

Folks are being closed minded.

Now that being said, I really liked your post after the impossible comments were done. I totally appreciate your deductive reasoning and ability to break down thought into rational processes. That was great. I agree with you on a couple of the points but the thing is that which you are basing that rationale on My comment there is that you, like everyone else, is looking inside the box for the solution. The solution is not in there. Those things are, as you said, failed attempts and they do not work. You are right...it is impossible..using the ideas you are familiar with. There is no one solution in that.




Jason


I can understand the frustration. I work in a games studio that focuses on digital download games (as a programmer, art is just a hobby for me) so I'm no stranger to people stealing my hard work. I hate to say this but I think these new ideas will just increase the amount of piracy. Games are hard to protect from pirates, but video is nearly impossible.

Digital download isn't retail, and it can't work like retail. That's not to say it can't be profitable despite the pirates. In my opinion it's all about providing value. We've released two games recently. One on the iPhone which was released at $15, sold almost nothing, then was discounted to 99 cents and still did poorly and was massively pirated. The second one, everyone who made it fought against the publishers to get released as cheaply as possible and has done really well. It's better to sell 50000 copies at $5 than 5000 at $15.

The average user is going to do a cost evaluation. Pirating a CA download is going to "cost" them in time to find it, the guilt in being a cheap scumbag, and the risk of being sued by Jason. However for some people that's cheaper than $15/$25. My advice would be to balance the equation in your favour. You can't stop piracy, but you can make it better value to buy your goods than pirate them. Maybe give custom icons / xbox acheivement style points for CA members who buy downloads etc.

Since I'm a game programmer (and huge nerd) here is how I would write the AI for a potential download customer...

Purchase:

PLUS
Value of Goods
Official customer incentives (Support, forum bonuses etc.)
Feeling good for supporting CA

MINUS
Cost (How much is $15 / $25 to them?)
Difficulty of purchasing (Credit cards, unsure of paypal)
DRM (Is it more annoying to be a legitimate customer than a pirate?)

Pirate:

PLUS
Value of Goods

MINUS
Guilt (For some people this will be a lot, for others nothing at all)
Danger of being sued
Difficulty of piracy

The customer will subconciously work out each equation, then go with the option presenting the best value. The part people always forget about are the large number of people that work out that equation and decide that neither are good value. Selling to those people is a far better option than fighting a losing battle with pirates.

Subscriptions also cost less mentally than a once off purchase. I'd happily pay $10 a month for a CA video magazine for a whole year, than spend $120 in a lump sum.

The other option would be in-video advertising. I bet that most people at CA don't own a any / a lot of / all of the MB downloads because they're not willing to pay $15/$25 for them, but aren't willing to pirate them either. Those people are lost customers.

Anyway, I really hope this post is useful. I really like CA.org and as such I'm off to buy a few downloads before they go up to $25 :)

[MeTaL-Mike]

Well if you do wish to insult me I would suggest otherwise, given my mood on this subject. Honestly, I will probably ban the next person who does it. CA has never tolerated that...especially with the mods. Check the how to get banned thread in the lounge. It is clearly stated. I do appreciate the supportive words though...and I appreciate disagreement...I would not be where I am now or have made it this far if I was surrounded by yes men.

I have looked at this problem for going on a year and a half now. Some of yall are coming in and looking at it for the first time and I doubt any of you have spent months on end working on solving the stuff. I currently am not looking to solve all internet piracy...just here on the site...and in that instance I believe it can be done. Yes I am now down to decision time...and that is probably why you see me being one sided on the matter. If it doesnt work we can always go back to the way it was. But as said, I think we even have a solution to the downloads issue but that will take some months and money to implement.

don't worry, i'm not planning to make war with you here :D:D:D that was't my intention at all. i just speak my mind man..

I understand what you mean by being one sided when it comes to decision making. It's difficult to please everyone. Hope the tests will come out good and the solution will be there soon. looking forward to the update tomorrow.

[kraal]

being one of the people that said i would not like this format i see it a little different now that i sit back...... I know i few times i lost my files and had to email Aaron to re download....with streaming that is solved. I will no longer have to switch out dvds ( which some have photo refs on projects i am working on ) to get a quick reference of a technique

now my question are the current donwloads going to disappear or be added to the stream...and if added to the stream if we already purchased can we stream them???

[Liam Harvey]

Hello Mr.Manley

The news of CA's Download tutorial vids coming to an end has saddened me greatly. Although I had never purchased a download, i had always endevoured to, once i had the money and the means, sadly the oppurtunity to do so is no longer.

I support this decision, as it is one that allows CA to remain active and to remain as such a source of inspiration and learning.

Thank you for CA.org





also:We should Declare WAR on pirates or perhaps just have anti-pirate themed community events. or something geez i dunno.

[Kazan]

Your game studio is not ConceptArt.Org. And your group does not have one singular point of distribution. If it does, then you can put a big dent in the problem...if not stop it. What is impossible for you is not impossible for me in that I am not looking at the same solutions you are. It's impossible that there is water on mars. Oh wow, look at the water on mars. If not for peoples belief that there could be, there would be no technology to find out.

Folks are being closed minded.

Now that being said, I really liked your post after the impossible comments were done. I totally appreciate your deductive reasoning and ability to break down thought into rational processes. That was great. I agree with you on a couple of the points but the thing is that which you are basing that rationale on My comment there is that you, like everyone else, is looking inside the box for the solution. The solution is not in there. Those things are, as you said, failed attempts and they do not work. You are right...it is impossible..using the ideas you are familiar with. There is no one solution in that.

Jason

Fair enough, I was just trying to help. I hope you can make things work, and I wish you the best of luck.

[Jaku]

I understand this is for the better.

I see CA.org as a growing child and their parents has to do the better for him even if they don´t like it.

Piracy is a bad company for the site and even i don´t know how it can be stopped, looking for solutions looks like a great idea.
I hope it works.

[janni]

also:We should Declare WAR on pirates or perhaps just have anti-pirate themed community events. or something geez i dunno.

have to say something to that one...

because... jeez.. i know it must be frustrating when a problem pops up and there is no country to invade and no destination to send your missiles to and you actually have to THINK to solve the problem. what happens when people don't think is this stupid monster called "war on piracy" the various entertainment industries are fighting without listening to anybody who actually thought about the roots of the problems.

that "war on piracy" has led to nothing other than that various lobbys are in a powerful enough position by now to influence the politics of smaller countrys are corrupting our law system and are trying to destroy NET NEUTRALITY.

so for christ sake let make PEACE with pirates, let's make them WANNA BUY. peace is the way to go, in the real world and also in this beatuiful other place which is the internet. you don't want war with your customers.

and just to make this clear: i am in no way directing this at jason manley. iam pretty sure by now that the new system coming up might be one of the first ones in existence today that are not only intelligent but also effective. and iam starting to become realy giddy about it too. cant wait to see and try and buy! :)

[Form]

i guess, since screencapture is an unavoidable 'spanner in the works', at least for now, priorities for our collective noggins should be on ways to improve and perfect this streaming model so that it really is a worthwhile evolution of the education.

Im sure the guys at MB have already come up with some great ideas for this, but since it seems like the streaming model is now a foregone conclusion, we are probably best to start thinking of enhancements for such.

The first that springs to mind for me would be that if the streaming vids were to play through CA, it would be great to have a chat box next to each video so that viewers can jam and discuss the material while it plays -- and perhaps have the artist in question do the occasional drop in to answer questions and so on. That seems like a fairly effortless way to actually add value to the streaming model, and os obviously something that cant be pirated.

Also if you are working with a proprietary in-browser 'player', you could have an interactive bar under the vid that, for instance, offered a link to an ftp folder with reference/bonus stuff from the dvd as it was talked about - so if it was screencapped, a pirater would not be able to access that unique link.

Hope these ideas are more along the lines of helpful thoughts for the future. Pirate ships are too big to fit down streams anyway :)

[JBurrough]

Been thinking about what to add, but most of it's been said already.

Just want to say good luck, hope it works out Jason. Love the site and though I dislike the idea of streaming videos (only because it limits access to many - not me - but others) if it needs be done, it needs be done.

I understand the heartache though... owned a few like forums in my time, dating back to when the net was a BBS running command lines from node to node. Hard work mate, painful too - but I appreciate what you do, as do 99% of the members here, even if they don't realize it. Especially if.

My regards to the staff and members that volunteer their time and energies - and hearts - to these forums. It's a great place to hang out and learn, thanks to the lot of you. Keep it free, keep it close, keep it voluntary. When it's time to move on, so be it - enjoying the ride until then.

[Liam Harvey]

have to say something to that one...

because... jeez.. i know it must be frustrating when a problem pops up and there is no country to invade and no destination to send your missiles to and you actually have to THINK to solve the problem. what happens when people don't think is this stupid monster called "war on piracy" the various entertainment industries are fighting without listening to anybody who actually thought about the roots of the problems.

that "war on piracy" has led to nothing other than that various lobbys are in a powerful enough position by now to influence the politics of smaller countrys are corrupting our law system and are trying to destroy NET NEUTRALITY.

so for christ sake let make PEACE with pirates, let's make them WANNA BUY. peace is the way to go, in the real world and also in this beatuiful other place which is the internet. you don't want war with your customers.

and just to make this clear: i am in no way directing this at jason manley. iam pretty sure by now that the new system coming up might be one of the first ones in existence today that are not only intelligent but also effective. and iam starting to become realy giddy about it too. cant wait to see and try and buy! :)


You make a lot of sense there, what i meant by war just to clarify, was not war in the conventional sense of combat, but in the sense of two opposing forces coming into conflict. The conflict being piracy and that we as a community and place of learning will not stand for it.

Appreciate all the hard work you do to keep the wheels turning Jason, good luck.

[PuppyKitten]

I do suspect that streaming videos won't do nearly as well as downloadable videos, but I hope I'm wrong. I know you're trying your best to fix an unfortunate situation. I really hope this works, because I'd hate to lose ca.

I won't lie, I am not personally interested in paying for streaming content. But since I am unable to purchase videos recently anyway, I doubt my tiny opinion will matter much.

So I will hold my tongue, wish you all the luck in the world, and let you get back to running your website.

[AhChu]

Start stocking up!, I love the digital downloads that I have purchased and I will miss them but I'm really excited over the chance for online courses and any other wonderful new content that will pop up.

[Brashen]

So will you be releasing the zhanglu downloads or not?

[Max Challie]

Jason, I find your attitude inspirational. Anything can happen if you make it happen.

[Cam Sykes]

Any word on an exact date, it's just my birthday is coming up soon and I asked for a few of these downloads that I haven't got yet.
But I think i might order the DVDs more often now rather than the download version. When ever I'm feeling depressed or unmotivated the soothing sounds of marko's voice cheer me up and get me drawing again. I got the dvd in my drive all the time for that reason.
streaming content is annoying for me but I understand why you guys are forced to do this.
I also really like how I'm able to make a playlist of my downloaded content and haev it run on my second monitor while I'm studying.

I think Form's idea about a Steam like downloader thing sounds like a great option. But of course that's cost involved in programming and maintaining such a service.

Also I know it's a bit of a sell-out idea but perhaps some paid advertising on the site might help.

[XanaChama]

Well, when I think about what you're already having to deal with, Jason, then I can understand how you feel about naysayers. Frankly, when I first read it, I would've said do what you have to do if it's what's for the best, absolutely. You need the money to continue. My first reaction.

I used to work in loss prevention and it was my job to count the entire store every week (not a small store mind you) and was responsible for tracking down thousands of dollars in missing items. You will have your big hitters. For example, for us it was always employee theft rings. I know it's not a personal vendetta on your part again piracy itself, but I can understand it being personal as I used to get pretty steamed about it too. Especially when you know that the people stealing from underneath your nose are your 'friends'. I never could make 'friends' in that position, I had to suspect everyone. It was my job.

I got pretty keen with it actually. In another position I had I told my management "There's no way ___ or ____ could be doing it alone if he was. I bet you all his beer buddies are in it too. I just can't think of how they can't know". Sure enough, every single one of them was fired after they all ratted on each other under pressure. Naturally, when I wasn't coming in that day is when things went missing... go figure. So if you tell me that you spent a lot of time on this and think you have come up with a possible solution, then I believe you. Yeah, I'll miss the downloads a helluva a lot, but you're doing what makes the most sense to you and are following your instincts.

[Darjan Jurincic]

do what u have to do jason...
people who have been inspired by this place and want to be inspired in the future will understand any decision u make and go along with it...
i will support u one way or another. its the less i can do to show u my gratitude for everything u guys have done.

cheers
D

[Sig.NAL]

Jason what date exactly will the downloads cease? I'm seeing how much money i can save up this week to purchase as many as i can that I haven't yet before it's no longer and option. It saddens me a bit, but i understand your position so I am glad for your efforts in keeping the myriad aspects of the community running...

[The Crazy Dude SRD]

I have a bit of an interesting question for you Jason...

I just purchased a download recently (thank you and your team for the wonderful work by the way) with what little I could scrounge up and this came to me a bit after...

For those who have already purchased a download/dvd will we have to pay again to see the streaming vids, say in case a harddrive fails or the video gets deleted by a foolish {insert sibling relationship here}, will they simply have to pay the difference, or are they on a special list that allows them to utilize the stream at no aditional charge?

I figured you'd be the man to ask.

Thanks
-Shawn

[Ashrumm]

I just finished reading this entire thread and after reading various points of views I believe Jason is correct in his assessment of the changing times in regards to streaming video. I remember the time before the advent of the debit/credit card (not that long ago) I always had cash, now I never use cash. (not nearly as much). I was skeptical at first about the streaming video solution. There is one variable many people are forgetting, and this is why I think Jason's new model will work. The CA downloads are of uber qaulity. In my opinion they are unmatched in skill and quality. I have learned much and have plenty more to learn from them.

So Jason if you build it they will come!! And on a side note you have to respect a man who is constantly trying to make what he has created as efficient as it can possibly be.

[Ashrumm]

And another thing, lets say it doesn't work at all, which many people here will agree that combating piracy is futile. What is wrong with trying? I am more than curious to see what Jason has in store for the community in regards to combating piracy.

[Main Loop]

It's gonna be pretty cool when it turns out that Jason Manley does end internet piracy once and for all. I mean, he did only start this site, the workshops, the best art studio in the modern world, a fricking school responsible for what will probably be the first generation of artists to surpass the previous generation since the Renaissance, and some other stuff I'm sure. Someone really oughta get a marble statue of this guy in the town square already.

But whatever happened with the legal action against the pirates? They all busted yet or what?

I cant tell if you were being sarcastic?

[-Zer0-]

I just finished reading this entire thread and after reading various points of views I believe Jason is correct in his assessment of the changing times in regards to streaming video. I remember the time before the advent of the debit/credit card (not that long ago) I always had cash, now I never use cash. (not nearly as much). I was skeptical at first about the streaming video solution. There is one variable many people are forgetting, and this is why I think Jason's new model will work. The CA downloads are of uber qaulity. In my opinion they are unmatched in skill and quality. I have learned much and have plenty more to learn from them.

So Jason if you build it they will come!! And on a side note you have to respect a man who is constantly trying to make what he has created as efficient as it can possibly be.

Just to emphasize, Jason and everyone a part of Massive Black really do work hard for this community. Really hard. If anyone's ever been to one of the workshops, they can only agree and attest to that. Back at Reverie, Jason worked tirelessly to get things situated and working properly (with a gouged eye no less!) and still had the determination and energy to come through and put on a good show and presentation. He'd even approached me and introduced himself to me before I even got to say a word at the end of one night. They live for this; this, is all for us and the enthusiasm really shows. It's a shelter to come to and grow; a place to call home, and Jason and the others are doing what they can do assure that we get the best of services and respectability.

This all doesn't come easily by any means, of course. Being here is one thing, helping it is another -- and bitching and moaning doesn't help. The least we can all do is show our support and continue to expand and discover new ways and ideas to help out. Sure, there may be pros and cons to streaming and such, but everyone seems to be forgetting that they don't have to be doing these demos for us at all. That'd ultimately stop piracy because there's nothing to copy and distribute. Right now, everyone's working to find solutions, and the only way to know if things work or not is to put them to the test. It's all experimental, and we should bear with them. At least we know we're getting good service, and that's better than nothing at all.

[SCIBOTIC]

Good luck Jason!

Streaming is a great option if done correctly, it removes the concerns about obtaining and viewing the material for less literate users.

There's a lot of other areas that could be worked on that would increase sales significantly, how ever curbing piracy does yield a significant benefit for downloadable content no matter how futile the effort, often doubling sales is nothing to sneeze at and only takes a turn for the worse when it cripples accessibility and functionality.

What i'm wondering is if that's enough for you? I haven't seen the numbers but I get the impression you'd probably get a better return on improving accessibility and marketing.

I'm not concerned either way, capturing streaming video is a fairly easy process for anyone with the technical expertise and I'll be doing so for my own use. I'm sorry to say but most blokes uploading videos to torrent sites also have the technical expertise so switching to streaming will only prevent the less capable users, but that may very well be enough unless the demand for it increases enough for a more capable user to take the plunge.

I wouldn't be surprised if Marko's DVD was the most pirated video out of all your productions, it had far greater visibility than previous downloads and was relatively inaccessible to a lot of interested users for a long time.

Also to any of the users who think a Steam-like service is a good idea for combating piracy, it has always been bloody easy to crack. The reason they sell well and continue to do so is because their service adds a lot of convenience and functionality to the product and often offers sales well below retail which further feeds on impulse buys and opens the product to audiences that couldn't afford the games at the usual price-point.

[Jason Manley]

If people rip them for personal use that is one thing. The moment they hit the torrents is when every volunteer and person sharing on ca gets hit. They can not be uploaded. For now I ask, humbly that if any of you have been doing so, to plz stop. We are trying to do a good thing. We could always go the way of academy of art and offer classes for two thousand dollars each. We do not. We literally give it away for cheap. We are trying to help...not hinder. The whole point of the site was low cost and free education. it cannot be that if people are putting these on torrents. What has chan or the others done to deserve that from the ca community? They have been volunteering here and at the shows and the school for years now. I really do not think they or the site deserves that.

I have a few options to try streaming wise, and we are pooring over all of them now. The new features, like live demos, makes it worth the jump alone. Want to hang with andrew and pick his brain, and then watch him paint? Want to meet with a professional about their work? Uh huh. Goooood stuff. This is not punishment. I see this is a major upgrade to the CA community and educational features.


Jason


Good luck Jason!

Streaming is a great option if done correctly, it removes the concerns about obtaining and viewing the material for less literate users.

There's a lot of other areas that could be worked on that would increase sales significantly, how ever curbing piracy does yield a significant benefit for downloadable content no matter how futile the effort, often doubling sales is nothing to sneeze at and only takes a turn for the worse when it cripples accessibility and functionality.

What i'm wondering is if that's enough for you? I haven't seen the numbers but I get the impression you'd probably get a better return on improving accessibility and marketing.

I'm not concerned either way, capturing streaming video is a fairly easy process for anyone with the technical expertise and I'll be doing so for my own use. I'm sorry to say but most blokes uploading videos to torrent sites also have the technical expertise so switching to streaming will only prevent the less capable users, but that may very well be enough unless the demand for it increases enough for a more capable user to take the plunge.

I wouldn't be surprised if Marko's DVD was the most pirated video out of all your productions, it had far greater visibility than previous downloads and was relatively inaccessible to a lot of interested users for a long time.

Also to any of the users who think a Steam-like service is a good idea for combating piracy, it has always been bloody easy to crack. The reason they sell well and continue to do so is because their service adds a lot of convenience and functionality to the product and often offers sales well below retail which further feeds on impulse buys and opens the product to audiences that couldn't afford the games at the usual price-point.

[kidult]

Posted over at PXC forums about the training going over to streaming and got a few people to download stuff. Maybe advertise this a bit more round the wbe and get a few last calls!

[Sneaker]

This makes me sad.

I'm going to buy as much videos as I can afford by now.
Streaming is no option for me allthough with screencapturing you can
sort of download them.

There was a similar discussuion going on at fxphd and luckily the makers of fxphd decided against streaming and underlined one comment of a member:
"rewarding your customers rather than punishing potential thieves"

I see the advantage that streaming can be accessed wherever you have an internet connection. But if you decide to quit you service your customers have nothing. Streaming should only be an additional service.

Edit:
One thing to add: What do you think of how many of the pirates who downloaded your videos would actually pay for them?


good luck,
-Michael

[jcaffoe]

I have a few options to try streaming wise, and we are pooring over all of them now. The new features, like live demos, makes it worth the jump alone. Want to hang with andrew and pick his brain, and then watch him paint? Want to meet with a professional about their work? Uh huh. Goooood stuff. This is not punishment. I see this is a major upgrade to the CA community and educational features.

I feel like you should have said that from the get go. You made such an emphasis earlier in the thread about what was being lost, of course there is going to be a backlash!

That's what I was talking about when I said you were perpetuating this feeling of guilt in the community. When you talked about placing restrictions on content rather than moving forward, and emphasized it by talking about how much blood, sweat, and tears have gone into this website (and how you may have to shut it down nonetheless) it feels like you're trying to make us feel the guilt of a crime we didn't commit. The truth is this community certainly doesn't take this site or the services it provides for granted.

It comes back to marketing. Had you talked about the streaming service as a step forward, and emphasized some of those points you mentioned, I'm sure everyone would have been on board, even with the price hike. But trying to build it up as your flagship weapon for combating piracy seems short-sighted and does little to excite the community about the future of education here on CA.

Streaming videos can truly be a better solution for the community if done right, and I'm sure they will be. The suggestions made thus far have been really exciting, and it makes the jump sound like a huuuge service upgrade, rather than punishment, as it did earlier in the thread.

I'm definitely aware of your accomplishments and I'm sure that you'll achieve your goals. I suppose when you make these threads in the future just keep in mind that you're talking to your past and potential customers, and not those who choose to pirate the material.

Best of luck, Jason.

[MeTaL-Mike]

so do you already have a date planned for when you would like this to be done?
i recall you saying something about a few weeks or so

[thelefthand]

Jason,

I agree with you trying the streaming video options. If it works like you want, great! If not, then you can change it from there. I think what people don't understand is that you can go back to downloads or even use another option later in time.

I also think that you should charge a small, minimal fee for this site. Most people want things for free on the internet and I understand that, but as you have pointed out, this site costs money. Some people will stay, others will leave or threaten to leave. I wouldn't worry about that. I think what you offer on this site with all the different areas of forum threads and things like the Daily Sketch Group and Character of the Week design contest offer a great resource to artists.

Let's take a look at Deviantart as a comparison. What do they offer? What do they charge? They cost about $30.00 a year for subscriptions for people to post their artwork and have a blog and sell prints. I can easily see Conceptart.org offering six month or one year subscriptions for around the $3.00 - $5.00 a month cost. To all the people on this site, seriously, even $5.00 a month is a bargain for all this information. If people purchase a one year subscription, the cost could go down to $2.50 - $3.00 a month based upon the one year subscription price.

The prices already for the downloads are a super bargain. I own about 20 of the MB downloads. I have found them extremely useful. Compared to the Gno*** digital downloads, the MB downloads are a great price.

[Earendil]

Well, I'm going to see if I can download a couple more of those videos.

Jason, you're inspiring, and what people see as "having blinders on", I think is a required trait for being successful.

Luke: I don't believe it!
Yoda: That is why you fail.

I am looking forward to the new features you have planned. :yayca:

[Devere]

even though I wasn't up for it at first, with the extra interactive features mentioned now for streaming I thinking this could be a really great thing. can't wait

[Noah Bradley]

I really didn't like the idea of losing ownership (and honestly still don't), but if you're going to be new features that benefit from streaming, then I say go for it, man. Progressing CA is really important, and if streaming video features are the best way for that, then more power to you.

Just a few thoughts, but wouldn't video-crits/paint-overs be kinda sick? More so than that, what about live painting sessions? Maybe have it so anyone could participate, or maybe just have a canvas that only a few pros have access to and the community can watch them work and chat about it (ask 'em questions, etc.). I really hope you exploit all the possibilities that streaming will offer you (and I fully expect you to).

Best of luck.

[Jason Manley]

there is a lot in the works. Meeting again here in about three hours.

[AphexTweak]

Trying to buy as many of these videos while they are still available in their current form. Got Coro's Gun Design (1 & 2) and Whit's "Masks" the other night... Haven't been able to watch them all just yet, but enjoying what I have seen thus far.

Waiting to get paid again this week to pick up a few more (So please don't close up the download shop just yet).

Eagerly waiting to hear where CA is going next! :yayca: :)

Jason, you are doing a fantastic job with CA, the Atelier, workshops, and MB. All of which have been a huge success and beneficial for everyone involved. I would say it is a safe bet that whatever direction these educational videos go, will also be a success and provide invaluable information and inspiration to others.

Thank you for all of your hard work and dedication to the artistic community.

[Theking78]

I agree with jcaffoe... too many importance about "stop the piracy" instead of "look how CA will be better in the future thanks to streaming technology" in your first post let be too worried about what we'll loose (the downloads) and not about what we'll have as a plus (the new features) . Now I'm curious to see all these new features, I WANT to support CA as much as I can so I have to believe in your skills also as a manager. Good luck again.

I feel like you should have said that from the get go. You made such an emphasis earlier in the thread about what was being lost, of course there is going to be a backlash!

That's what I was talking about when I said you were perpetuating this feeling of guilt in the community. When you talked about placing restrictions on content rather than moving forward, and emphasized it by talking about how much blood, sweat, and tears have gone into this website (and how you may have to shut it down nonetheless) it feels like you're trying to make us feel the guilt of a crime we didn't commit. The truth is this community certainly doesn't take this site or the services it provides for granted.

It comes back to marketing. Had you talked about the streaming service as a step forward, and emphasized some of those points you mentioned, I'm sure everyone would have been on board, even with the price hike. But trying to build it up as your flagship weapon for combating piracy seems short-sighted and does little to excite the community about the future of education here on CA.

Streaming videos can truly be a better solution for the community if done right, and I'm sure they will be. The suggestions made thus far have been really exciting, and it makes the jump sound like a huuuge service upgrade, rather than punishment, as it did earlier in the thread.

I'm definitely aware of your accomplishments and I'm sure that you'll achieve your goals. I suppose when you make these threads in the future just keep in mind that you're talking to your past and potential customers, and not those who choose to pirate the material.

Best of luck, Jason.

[kraal]

i do agree with other the whole tone started a little to negative and i think that's what drummed up the whole spat...... but as you see as you got more positive about the future and benifits most of our tones changed too....... so as you can see Jason we are still behind you just don't lose faith in us either :)

[Nyarlathotep]

I havent had a chance finish reading the thread but decided i didnt need to right now. Jason i have utmost faith in that you will come up with a solution to the best of your ability. Such a shame these guys have to give real pirates with eye patches and peg legs a bad name... Just a question thou, i heard you mention online school, is that kind of the direction your going with these streaming downloads? It sounded a little like that kind of set up which in my opinion would be amazing. As long as you had a wide selection of skill ranges in the streaming content. Anyways much luck to you in the direction you take CA, I know you'll make it awesome. Go get em!!

[spaztastic]

how long are we talking before the downloads get caputsed??? I am buying three today and want to buy three or four more on my payday which is this Friday. will i have enough time until then to do so? this is the first time i have been able to afford to get these downloads and it really sucks that they will be ending soon.

I am a stay at home mom who cannot afford to do much, especially classes, and drawing is one of my releases. The one in which I am ardently striving to get better at and these downloads are one of the most reliable, accessible, and affordable ways for me to do so. And now because of some idiots that decided to steal all that is going away. So to all of you who have cheated this site and it artists Shame on you I hope your pen tablets loose all their nibs and pressure sensitivity.
Well Jason I hope these live streams will work, I look forward to participating.

[Jason Manley]

Yes...anger passes doesn't it? Thanks for the understanding. To those who have been NOT sharing on torrents. Thank you. We greatly appreciate you not leaking chan's latest. He did such a nice job too.

The downloads will be up for at least another week or two. I got the tests back today on the new system and it worked great. We need to test a high resolution video tomorrow. I ran some high res tests yesterday in the other system and that worked great..full HD and my connection was intermittent. So far so good. Hopefully people will continue to refrain from torrenting and if so it would even be possible to keep some of the downloads up. It is too early to tell.


Jason

[kraal]

will the current downloads be available on the new system and on new system launch is there new content just waiting?

[Freddy Scribbles]

i just bought loadz...that i can't really afford...as long as my gerbils and I can still eat and stay out of the rain, right? right.

but i like burning my LEGAL downloadz to DVDs or off to an external (eg. audiobooks to an mp3 player) so that I can watch, practice, etc at the same time. i'd hate to lose the downloads after going through boggle eyed at what I've purchased. it's nice to sort of be able to experiment with what they're teaching in PS while they're teaching it. couldn't do that if it weren't for downloads. one tiny, itty bitty, craptastic laptop does not like PS + QuickTime. oh well.

glad to hear the new system's shaping up. bring on the art love.

and holy hell...I just reread this post and am utterly gobsmacked by suddenly pants-fabulous English grammar capabilities. Spelling be hanged. I was never good at that.

Jason, are you planning one big, huge, whomping all-at-once release of the new system or a gradual transition? Either way, good luck and all. Awesome show great job. That sort of thing. :)

[Saturns Gate]

I sincerely hope this all works out better for you Jason, why anyone would upload these awesome downloads for pirating is beyond me. There very reasonably priced and for your money you are getting a bargain. Keep up the good work.

[Liam Harvey]

Ok, Now im hyped for this streaming.This thread is exciting!

[Zeth09]

Live demos now thats something id love to see :) Ironically enough i was going to start a topic on that but i guess you already have it rollin around your head Jason ;P I recently got to be a part of a live stream session with Ryan Kingslien (great zbrush artist) on Ustream and it was awesome :D So if this new stream system also paves the way for live content im behind it 100%

But after Zhanglu releases a vid i want that sucker on my Hdd :P
I'm curious thou are you going to have it set up so that you purchase the vids and their logged to your account and then you have like an online archive of your purchased streams or do you have something else in mind?

Either way i hope it works out for you guys!

[spaztastic]

Yeah I was wondering that too are we going to be able to access them again or will we have to buy them again? is it going to be like hulu where you can watch them over and over again? but pay a membership fee or per vid? either way it would be nice if we were still able to see the vids later...cause when it comes to awesome artists and watching them do their work.... half the time I am looking at all the uber cool equipment and then the fact that HOLY CRAP THIS IS AWESOME.... so uh yeah I normally have to watch them like two or three times to get the point....call me dense I guess or air headed either one works first preferred ;) but yes I will be buying some more tomorrow..... i can hardly wait. but I have to cause I am broke right now.

[N-man]

i was planning on getting a couple for my b-day so i just need to decide which ones:) i had a question though jason. will the video stream pages have a link to psd files and such like what you have with the downloads now? i always enjoyed that you had brushes and stuff and thought it would be cool to continue that idea.

take care and good luck,
N-man

[Liam Harvey]

just brought 15 of the downloads today, with Marko's DVD download being next in line for purchase, hoping that my download speed does not buckle under the strain of everything.Really looking forward to watching and learning.

Not sure if this has been mentioned but, When the downloads get removed will those who have purchased, but not begun downloading still be able to do so, even after the cut off date? i may have to cram the downloading otherwise.

Dont mean to complain, i just want to know what my options are.

Sorry for the poor grammar and as always, Thanks.

Liam

[Daniel Andrews]

Im glad to hear that, the new system is working out well. Im curious and excited to see how its all gonna work.
All the best.

[DeckardSolo]

noo. Keep the downloads. Just put the names of pirates on here. I'm sure there are enough assassins on this board that will do em pro bono.

Streaming is gonna suck for those who don't have hi-speed 24/7. I'm highly mobile and dependent on public wifi.

Ownership is such a big deal that I think everyones just gonna screencapture anyway.

[Pandora's Eyes]

i hope the powers-that-be are taking note of the increase in download purchases due to this announcement. would there be such an influx of downloads if people were truly comfortable with the oncoming new format?

i really hope this matter is reconsidered. i appreciate everything ca has done for the art community. but if you're asking for money to be spent on a product, then we are no longer a community of artists learning together but for that specific instance we are vendors and consumers. that does not diminish any of what ca has done as a non-profit organization.

but the fact remains, consumer mentality comes into play when exchange of money is involved. and regardless of how cheap even a $25 streaming video is comparatively for a training video, consumer mentality determines the value of a product solely by its pleasure and/or purpose. while i do not deny the purpose of these videos, they are highly informative and helpful in the growth of an artist, my concern lies in the pleasure factor.

ownership of a product is paramount to consumer psychology. ever noticed how dvds in stores have a nice slip cover packaging initially and over time do not, resorting to just the simple dvd box with inserted wrap around cover? they include the nice slip cover for the consumer who will pass by the aisle and notice the shiny new product and get interested in purchasing. it's pleasure driven.

i fear increasing cost at the same time as changing the format in which these videos are delivered is a drastic change to the consumer. the possibility is strong folks will feel they are paying more but getting less. and while i admit the training video is the same and the content will be of the same high quality, the simple change in format will feel to the consumer as "less."

i want ca to be successful. i understand the concerns over piracy. but i can't help but feel i, as a consumer, am being asked to pay more for less given the new format.

otherwise, love the new chan video. and am still watching and learning andrew and nox's vids. thank you ca!

[Xeom]

Just spent like 100 on these videos and probably going to buy a few more.

I probably wont be using any of the new stuff, but i understand why MB will be doing this.

GL in the future.

[Jason Manley]

noo. Keep the downloads. Just put the names of pirates on here. I'm sure there are enough assassins on this board that will do em pro bono.

Streaming is gonna suck for those who don't have hi-speed 24/7. I'm highly mobile and dependent on public wifi.

Ownership is such a big deal that I think everyones just gonna screencapture anyway.

I am on wifi, streaming in HD, with a two bar of five connection and it is working just fine for me.

What I care about is the uploading to torrents..and seeing that stop...which it will given the new technology created. CA has to spend thousands of dollars each month to try to get them down with the current download system. The community loses it's ability to stay open and free. Right now the chan vid is not up on torrent. If this continues..and people here refrain from putting them on torrents, then I will consider releasing some downloads or at least keeping these up. All it is going to take though is one and it's done. Right now I am working as if the torrents would continue with the downloads and thus the new streaming solutions. it is HD too..and the test I just ran was smooth and I was able to skip around to any parts of the vid I wanted. Security features work great too. Currently there is no restriction on views.

[Jason Manley]

Just spent like 100 on these videos and probably going to buy a few more.

I probably wont be using any of the new stuff, but i understand why MB will be doing this.

GL in the future.

You rock!! Everyone who has jumped in and supported the cause has helped CA get through another month here. Bills will be paid. That is a primary concern with keeping this site free and if not for you all we would have probably seen a loss. So thanks. Really.


Jason

[Jason Manley]

I think there is a lot of support to help because CA is in danger of becoming a pay to play service too. A lot of people here have had their entire lives changed through this site. From making babies to finding careers to complete life transformations like MindCandyMan. The support for what we are trying to do is greatly appreciated.

There is nothing to reconsider though. A download file you watch a few times and learn from is not a shiny dvd box in a gold case with some figurines for your desk. The only way there would be anything to reconsider is if the torrenting stops. You guys want downloads...simple..do not share them. Not saying you are...just saying to everyone who is..please do not.

What happens if we do not change formats is the CA peeps will have less. They will potentially not even have CA...at least for free. I have had strong pressure from other professionals to just turn the whole place pay to pay. I am told "jason you have given enough. You have seven years of art knowledge stored in one place, videos, a school, and millions of images...what you have can be covered with a subscription only site". While I hear what they are saying, I do not agree. I want to continue to have a free place to learn online. I want to continue to see the culture of sharing and growth here. However, the torrenting really makes that impossible. That is the reality of it.

As far as more for less? Not at all. The videos have increased in quality over time, and will continue to do so. The education continues to widen and will continue to do so (as long as people do not ruin it for everyone). There is little difference between a stream and the current DL. You have to wait to DL it with the current method and with the stream it is instant...and even on a slow connect, a short wait and it loads anyway. The quality is great. The education is strong. I really do not agree with you on this point at all. Of course, you are welcome to your opinion.


Jason


i hope the powers-that-be are taking note of the increase in download purchases due to this announcement. would there be such an influx of downloads if people were truly comfortable with the oncoming new format?

i really hope this matter is reconsidered. i appreciate everything ca has done for the art community. but if you're asking for money to be spent on a product, then we are no longer a community of artists learning together but for that specific instance we are vendors and consumers. that does not diminish any of what ca has done as a non-profit organization.

but the fact remains, consumer mentality comes into play when exchange of money is involved. and regardless of how cheap even a $25 streaming video is comparatively for a training video, consumer mentality determines the value of a product solely by its pleasure and/or purpose. while i do not deny the purpose of these videos, they are highly informative and helpful in the growth of an artist, my concern lies in the pleasure factor.

ownership of a product is paramount to consumer psychology. ever noticed how dvds in stores have a nice slip cover packaging initially and over time do not, resorting to just the simple dvd box with inserted wrap around cover? they include the nice slip cover for the consumer who will pass by the aisle and notice the shiny new product and get interested in purchasing. it's pleasure driven.

i fear increasing cost at the same time as changing the format in which these videos are delivered is a drastic change to the consumer. the possibility is strong folks will feel they are paying more but getting less. and while i admit the training video is the same and the content will be of the same high quality, the simple change in format will feel to the consumer as "less."

i want ca to be successful. i understand the concerns over piracy. but i can't help but feel i, as a consumer, am being asked to pay more for less given the new format.

otherwise, love the new chan video. and am still watching and learning andrew and nox's vids. thank you ca!

[Jason Manley]

thank you Liam. We appreciate this.

You will be able to get your vids. Do not worry about that.


Seriously though...much thanks.


Jason


just brought 15 of the downloads today, with Marko's DVD download being next in line for purchase, hoping that my download speed does not buckle under the strain of everything.Really looking forward to watching and learning.

Not sure if this has been mentioned but, When the downloads get removed will those who have purchased, but not begun downloading still be able to do so, even after the cut off date? i may have to cram the downloading otherwise.

Dont mean to complain, i just want to know what my options are.

Sorry for the poor grammar and as always, Thanks.

Liam

[Brashen]

Haha been hounding Aaron on getting more downloads. Sorry Aaron!! Thanks for helping me with the payment issues.

[Grief]

forget downloads, streaming, etc. i want VHS tapes http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/ninjau1/Grief.gif

i plan on buying all the videos in a month, whether in download or streaming form. im tired of missing out on all the fun, and i am more interested in the message than the means to which i recieve it.

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

I'd pay for a subscription (sorry I would!!!)

Sorry to hear of your troubles Jason you are a good person and you have made a difference in the world which is an amazing feat in itself, for anyone, if one can conquer their own little mind first...to take on the global community is an act of heaven

I think it is right to make CA stay free. That is my opinion, even though I would pay-to-play....

:)

I have no time for videos right now, (at least not the leisure to enjoy them fully) but I will buy a few so keep up the good work...

[Studio Colrouphobia]

Having difficulties to scrounge up 20 bucks for a downloadable video since my financial situation as well as feeding two children under the age of five put me at 0 to minus in in cash each month, will be even more difficult to scrounge up 25 for streaming, but I understand the problem of torrents.
Because of my difficulties to find cash to buy I find it a personal insult that someone else would download for free what I pay for. It is not a danger or loss for CA it is an insult to ME, who is paying for it.
Spending money saved up through two three months where I have chosen to skip a meal a day for weeks to be able to buy one and then seeing torrents making my possibilities to buy and download vanish and being exchanged for streaming, more expensive(!) vids is not something I am happy about...

But I understand the sentiment.

I am trying my best to save up to be able to go to the Köln workshop (which is a herculean task for me, 500+ USD in three months where I normally would have difficulties saving up 20 USD for) and thus unfortunately I just cannot afford to buy downloads right now, I'm looking forward to seing the new solution though and will do my best to save up and watch those once I have a chance.

[corza334]

I have to vote for a subscription service,
90% of us Aussie do..
Due to the download cap, we won't have a hope in hell streaming.
I'm with the 100$ for 25gig crew, sadly :(

[Liam Harvey]

thanks for clearing that up Jason, and might i say a very special thanks to everyone involved in the production of the Videos, they are truly amazing.

Liam

[James Kei]

Seems the consensus is that streaming media cuts out everyone outside of the Unites States. :(

[petitemistress]

Seems the consensus is that streaming media cuts out everyone outside of the Unites States. :(

More or less, James ._. (50$ a month for 4 gigs here) but you gotta do what you gotta do! im getting your clothed figure download next week, got some cash coming in :) thanks for making it!

[Rist]

Never been able to play HD when streaming. I hope to see a lower res version of the video.

[Helltroll]

One question:

After all the downloads are switched to streams, will the actual DVDs still be available?

[Freddy Scribbles]

So...I just went to actually see what the damage was in terms of merchandise purchased...

17 of the bloody things! I'd been wanting to wait until I was a bit more financially capable (eg. employed at something other than national minimum wage) but oh well. Seems to be worth it and then some from what I've had time to watch.

...of course it makes having a defunct computer even more painful because all I want to do is get in and draw. Esp. as photoshop isn't my strong point and I've now had the opportunity to see lots of things that will almost certainly make learning photoshop more "graspable"

Thanks for the great work. My wallet says ouch...Everything else says super awesome good job!

*sigh* I want my computer back...dell needs a kickin. Can we throw them into the world of hurt with the pirates?

[kraal]

Seems the consensus is that streaming media cuts out everyone outside of the Unites States. :(

it cuts more than just that ... people like me who just dont feel the need to be connected to the internet all the time just to watch a vid. I actually will pay the $50 - $70 to the competitors for thier dvd's

but i am wasting breath here in this discussion cause all it is is about the torrents pirates and profits.........

so much said about what is done for free but so much more complaining about the cost. Mixed signals if you ask me

[tipsy_corey_mendez]

That sucks, but with the way the internet is this stuff is gonna happen eventually no matter what we do.

[corza334]

Well, this site has given so much...
Why not just make it subscription? Its more then worth it...

[Devere]

no kraal, I disagree with the mixed signals. you have to look a little deeper my friend to try grasp the whole situation. CA is a big site that has 10's of thousands if not 100,000's of artist coming here and perticipating and sharing knowledge and learning every day right. well setting up something like this isn't exactly a low cost operation. so they've created the video tutorial system speciically to solve this problem. and are selling then at dirt cheep prices (little over cost) to help cover cost of this great learning site. no different from how your local art community centre operates. they are non profit but they still need money to keep the place open so there are fee's for workshops life drawing sessions ans such. do you see where I'm getting with this.

Exactly the same concept for this online art community centre

[kraal]

no kraal, I disagree with the mixed signals. do you see where I'm getting with this.

Exactly the same concept for this online art community centre

yes ...

[Ex3.beatnik]

Hey all, first post, but after reading this, I gotta say it's a sad situation, but nothing that's going to stop me from purchasing the streams. If that's how it is going to be done, I'm more than willing to do it (although I do have the convenience of living within the US...). The tutorials on here are easily worth triple their value (although please don't hike it too much, for a broke art student like me, this is basically perfect as is ((25$ is still reasonable as well in comparison to gn0m0n 's avg 50$ price point)). I guess I just wanted to say keep things up, I'll be be around to support, and I'm sure plenty of others will be as well regardless of the situation. The lessons are just too valuable to not download if your an aspiring artist.


-->I also pumped out 60$ today for ya guys while the downloads still ARE in fact downloads...and may drop another 100$ by tomorrow if I can manage to scrounge up enough. I also would not mind paying up for some form of premium yearly membership if things came to that. Whatever keeps this invaluable resource afloat.:yayca:

[ceddo]

Hehe, at least there's going to be a spike in video purchases before the downloads end, mine included (I highly suggest extending the time before downloads end, to make sure as many people feel pressured to buy the vids before).

Edit: just bought 80$ of vids... looking forwards to these!
Edit2: I would pay to be able to post on this board, and wouldn't feel cheated in the slightest. The amount and quality of information on this board is... unbelievable. I signed up to this website a few months ago but felt inspired to have another go at digital painting this weekend. And this whole weekend it's been amazing, the amount of resources there are on here. Some of the worlds' best artists are sharing their art, there are community contests going on, countless tutorials... what's on here is priceless.

[Movenski]

Jason,

I'd like to know what you're ideas are for costs for the streaming access and also if CA were to become a paysite. I think everyone on here probably realizes that this step is going to be inevitable due to the torrenting. the people who put those up view themselves as Robin Hoods, and regrettably you imploring them to stop probably isn't going to dent that mentality. i've bought about 80 bucks worth of these DL's and they're worth every penny, you guys are one of the few groups of folks i have no problem paying for something you offer, and i think its sad that others don't have the integrity to support fellow artists, esp. when they're offering stuff as informative as these vids for CHEAP.
anyhow, either route you decide to go, i can at least say i'm on the train, i'd just like to know how much its going to run me so i can decide what comics to stop reading.

-Ryan

[el coro]

but i am wasting breath here in this discussion cause all it is is about the torrents pirates and profits.........

so much said about what is done for free but so much more complaining about the cost. Mixed signals if you ask me


you have no idea what goes into running this place. or of how expensive just the bandwidth is to keep CA running...

i am sooo tired of your whining dude.

if you're so angry about how we are trying to do things over here, look, the internet is a big place, and im sure there are alot of other sites that would love for you to take up their bandwidth with your artwork while you complain about them and their motives.

if you want to pay 3-5 times as much for competitor's dvds because you dont want to connect to the internet, thats your right. truthfully, the info is probably more or less the same, depending on who you learn from. please ask them if they will also host your images for free, work to help set up copyright protections for your artwork, and put you in touch with a community of 150,000 artists to learn from too...:yayca:

didnt i read somewhere one of my guys was supposed to punch you in the face? what ever happened to that?

how about a few more of these...... :mod::mod::mod::mod::mod::mod:

c36

[Sidharth Chaturvedi]

Bought about $100 worth of these in the last few days and already got more info about painting than in 2 years of undergrad classes. I'll probably end up getting more, because as much as I'm trying to save what's in the bank, I don't miss the money- the training's been invaluable, especially considering that it's like 1% the cost of a class at school.

I get the stuff that's been said about consumer pleasure and whatnot here. I hope the downloads return at some point for all of those without access to the bandwidth needed for streaming. But talking about lowering the value of the product because of a slight price hike and switching to streaming seems silly. Why is "owning" these things such a big deal? The point of them is, above all, to support the site. Given how many people are more than ready to support through subscription or paypal donations, I'm not seeing why having the still-incredibly cheap tutorials in your browser instead of Quicktime is even worth complaining about. You're getting insanely valuable training that's worth many times what you paid, just for supporting a site that gives you something for nothing.

By the way-

Torrent file downloads: 1111
Target file downloads: 725
Last seeder activity: 2 hours ago
Files described inside the torrent:
Massive Black James Kei Digital Figure Painting Photoshop Training/Massive Black James Kei Digital Figure Painting Photoshop Training.bin 299.79 MB
Massive Black James Kei Digital Figure Painting Photoshop Training/Massive Black James Kei Digital Figure Painting Photoshop Training.cue 74 bytes
Massive Black Richard Doble Creature Design Photoshop
Training/Massive Black Richard Doble Creature Design Photoshop Training.bin 289.90 MB
Massive Black Richard Doble Creature Design Photoshop Training/Massive Black Richard Doble Creature Design Photoshop Training.cue

That's over 1100 downloads, from one torrent site, from a torrent that's still up and has several seeders. I'm really not sure how many people are comprehending the amount of damage being done here through torrenting when they say streaming won't help at all, nor do they realize how many ungrateful freeloaders there are on the site looking for ways to get the downloads for nothing.

Keep it up, all. Can't wait for the newer features and the online school.

-Sid

[Newman101]

Has there been any word on a target date on taking the downloads down? I do plan on getting the streaming when it comes out, but I would really like to have as many of the downloads as I can. I just have to wait for the pay check to buy some more. I spent about 70 dollars last week for them, and i'll probly do the same this week, if they are still up.

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

nox is so cute with his little french accent

i just want to pat him on the head

sooo cuuute..I seriously didn't pay any attention because I am so tired and busy this last week. just fell asleep listening to him talk about problematic stomaches....hmmm

so now I wonder who I should download next...why no women instructors? Who else is cute? :geekg:

[Form]

oh just another thought that popped into my head - many ISP's include a list of websites where downloads dont count towards your bandwidth cap.
perhaps you could pursue some of those avenues to at least make the vids more accesable to a % of your audience?
for instance internode in AUS lets you stream certain net radio, download from sourceforge, etc for free.

[Jason Manley]

Just finished with the first peer to peer tests for the the online education system...more to do. Will keep you guys updated. :)


Jason

[kikindaface]

Hey Jason, i have some questions for the online class ! Is it available for everyone ? I really wanna know if it'll be the same classes than the ca atelier ( color and design class, figure drawing, etc ....), in this case, is it possible to apply to only one class or two, or it will be a complete program ? I hope you didn't already answer to these questions, but if you already did, you can link me to the thread ! Thanks man

[Liam Harvey]

All right! my Tally for my purchased downloads is as follows:
Andrew Jones Boss Monster part 1 & 2 (I can't get 2 to work though, what's a ".RAR"?)
Andrew Jones Fine Art
Andrew Jones Thumbnail Demo
Coro Cinematic Storyboards 1&2
James Kei clothed figure painting
James Kei Digital figure Painting
Jason Chan Quick sketch
Jason Chan painter sketch
jason Chan Style exploration
Nox Part 1 & 2
Painting the Dragon force cover with Android Jones
richard Doble creature design
Marko's DVD download
Dan Dos Santos Dvd download

i cannot wait to watch them all. i made the mistake of watching the thumbnail vid at 1:00 in the morning, and then i couldnt sleep. i had to draw!!

[ceddo]

.RAR is a compression type. You need to uncompress it somehow, using WinRAR for windows or Stuffit Expander for Macs.

[kraal]

you have no idea what goes into running this place. or of how expensive just the bandwidth is to keep CA running...

i am sooo tired of your whining dude.

if you're so angry about how we are trying to do things over here, look, the internet is a big place, and im sure there are alot of other sites that would love for you to take up their bandwidth with your artwork while you complain about them and their motives.



maybe if you actually read my post ..... I have never said i was angry.... and all i did was point out the mixed signals in the tone of these post. I commented on your personal download which i purchased giving you praise and I also pointed out to Jason in this thread that i realize the significance and benifits of having the downloads added..... the post you are refering to was in reference to the post prior.

[digi]

Some of the craziest comments on here are the ones that suggest that we can't do anything about downloads/piracy and it's just something we have to deal with.

Once someone has their hard work stolen and given away to others then they'll feel how Jason and the rest of the crew feel. I'm sure if people on here had their art stolen and people were using it everywhere without permission, the whole community would be up in arms. This is very similar to this situation.

I think the streaming thing is a great idea.

[MassiveDVD]

Piracy is a complicated issue, I'll admit, but CA isn't a large record company that can spend months or years figuring out a solution for the consumers and artists. There are bills to pay, and Jason is working his ass off to make that happen, and I certainly appreciate it. Disagreements and debates are natural, but without some serious action there would be no place to debate this at all and that's sort of the bottom line in all of this.

I also wanted to chime in to say that I appreciate everyone who contributed some thought to the matter and some $$$ to the downloads. I hope they help you make some kick ass art, and we've got some good stuff in the pipeline regardless of the format it will be released in.

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

well it is really good quality instruction...I'm a little shocked that the videos are being pirated...I sort of wondered if you know, competition was doing it, like anyone who would stand to profit from seeing CA.org go down...I think scandals like that are uncommon in reality and most companies play fair.

It's probably just too hard for me to swallow the idea of artists ripping each other off, even though *sigh* we see it happen all the time with rip-off art and so forth. Very dissapointing...

I would like some more Nox videos btw, hint hint...and yes I am learning alot after a pot of coffee.

I've done the traditional atelier and this is the sort of instruction that pairs really well with the rote measure-and-mark of the French Academic method, it breaks up the tensity of that copying style.

[Brashen]

I'm just gonna say this one more time and then I'll keep my peace about it.....Where is the Zhanglu download we were promised???

[Arshes Nei]

.RAR is a compression type. You need to uncompress it somehow, using WinRAR for windows or Stuffit Expander for Macs.

Just wanted to note 7zip is also freeware for windows users that will open .rar files. It's very nice too.

[djkitt]

I'm not sure what to think about purchasing streaming video tutorials over downloadable files.

Here's an example of my latest tutorial purchase from this site, and the issues that may come up with streaming video purchases over downloaded files.

I just purchased the 3D Pre-Viz tutorial on Sunday. So far it's taken me about 3 days of off and on work to get about 20 minutes into the first video. I'd say I’ve sat down about 5 to 7 different times so far over the past 3 days to work on it, which means I’ve had to open my video file and scrub the play head forward to my last position in the video. With a downloaded file on my local disk it's not an issue because I can just scrub my play head forward to my last recorded time, quick and painless. Just this morning I was working on it and then I left for work. I’ll get home tonight, open my video on my second monitor and scrub forward again and continue, stopping and starting and rewinding again the video as I work along in my programs on my pri monitor. And with a tutorial that’s time lapsed I stop, start, and rewind even more. I’ll probably do this every day for the next 2 to 3 weeks as I get through the two videos. I’ll probably go back and watch a few things again if my work is not going right.

Now if I had to jump online and wait for the download stream to get to the last place I left off, each time I sat down to work, I’d probably go mad. And it means I’m downloading the same video a hundred times or more over the next several weeks. I’m not sure this becomes a benefit for anyone at that point, and I’d probably look elsewhere for a similar video series I can download once and freely use on my local disk to work along with. As we all know, when doing a tutorial workflow is important, and if there are interruptions and frustrations outside of the actual work we’re doing it can really kill the mood. When I purchase a video tutorial set I don’t watch it and then work off of memory of what I saw. I work along with it, program on one monitor, video tutorial on the other, watching, rewinding, stopping and starting, scrubbing that play head like a mad man over the next few weeks until I’m happy with what I’ve learned. I’m sure most who purchase video tutorials work this way. I can’t really say I’d want to do this with a streaming video each day.

I’m not complaining or trying to invoked my opinion on anyone. This is just an example of how I work on tutorials that I’ve purchased. I’m sure happy I was able to download my 3D Pre-Viz tutorial on Sunday. And when I get home from work tonight and get settled I’ll open video #1, scrub forward to about 22 minutes, and go thru this workflow all over again.

[Penumbra]

Magcloud.com offers magazine printing at 20 cents a page. Upload a pdf and people subscribe to the mag...it's P.O.D.

In addition to the streaming why not put together a small magazine including some of the tutorials and images. A written supplement of information that someone could refer to when not online (or if streaming isn't feasable). Not as direct as dvd but certainly useful, I think.

...and let the CA members contribute by publishing a semi annual mag showcasing Members artwork. All print on demand (no cost except the time it takes to put together) with proceeds feeding CA servers and content (and CA members who get published get bragging rights and tearsheets)

A blurb from their site:

It costs you nothing to publish a magazine on MagCloud. To buy a magazine costs 20¢ per page, plus shipping. For example, a 20-page magazine would be four bucks plus shipping. And you can make money! You set your issue price and all proceeds above the base price go to you.

[Jazz]

YIKES!! O_O I've been away from CA for a while, and only on Facebook did I hear about this!! :( It's pathetic how some people are...

Unfortunately, I don't have a working Paypal (I have one but...ugh...it's just not workin' for me), so I'm going to try and use a family member's. I've been wanting to get some because I feel a great need to receive extra instruction on a LOT of things I have trouble with. :( So hopefully the downloads will still be around for a bit longer.

Jason, I totally support what you're doing! This place amazes and humbles me, and how you got it so successful is inspiration! While I don't know if piracy will completely stop with your method, I do believe in whatever methods you choose. :D I'm glad you're just moving forward with your plan, that's what I need to do more often. ^_^

I hope that I can support the site by downloading some vids. I probably can't do the streaming video thing for several reasons, at least not MUCH. I'll try when I get enough money. ^___^ For now, if I can't reach the downloads I'll find another way to lend my support.

Hope you and many others know I really appreciate watching your progress, and reading your tutorials and helpful advice! There's always somebody ruining a good thing for everyone else. Did they not even see the FREE help that people get around here? Wealth of knowledge, and I've never been so outgoing with my art. ^_^

So thanks a bunch, no matter what happens!

[CUBICcube]

Just bought Jason Chans new video, I didnt need paypal, thay have a pay by card option

[NicHolS]

Hey Jason,

I know from reading most of the posts so far that people are telling you that making it a streaming service will hurt your business model and turn away your current loyal consumer base here at CA etc etc and although I agree I think maybe theres another way of looking at this situation from a distance.

The main issue is piracy, where people are getting a hold of a legit copy and ripping/torrent-ing it online for unlimited people to download. This naturally hurts your profit in that these people aren't buying or paying for this product (where as realistically 95%of these people may hypothetically never have paid for it anyway.)

I say instead of making the customers pay for the product, (and as much as we all may hate advertising), perhaps a funded or promotional video where profits are made from games/movie studios you're working for and shifting the funding from them. People will be free to download at no cost via CA, eliminating any loss to your company while the hardest challenge you face will be finding studios willing to back your videos (which will always be the challenge anyway). I'm sure everyone out here is willing to suffer an advert for a game during the video and it may in fact be more beneficial for everyone if the in game/movie assets MB produces for these companies are the same videos you are producing and distributing. It would be treaded more as a promotional video for both MB/CA and the company you're representing in the videos. They could be released during key events such as E3 or GDC or whatever same as all traditional game previews.

Just a thought, I really hope you find a solution which benefits us as customers and you financially,
Adam

[Jason Manley]

your business idea is appreciated. it has already been fully explored and none of the companies who would support such an idea were even remotely interested even with high traffic. Just no interest there at all. The biggest issue you are not seeing is that it would take a full time sales force to even keep such videos booked, then tracked, then dealing with the corporate influence...ugh. It won't happen in this current climate. Every primary company who stood to benefit from this is....well...they don't care. :)

If that was what the community wanted we could hire a business development person to chase down such fancies...but they will come at a high price and well...people would have to stop torrenting to afford that...and it would most likely lose more money than it gained, given the current price for selling ad services and the like.

It will be a couple weeks as we solve the streaming vid stuff. Looking at all options to be sure we choose the right service. Im happy with what we have happening and have a list of cool new tech to add to the site too.

[JeroKane]

I'm not sure what to think about purchasing streaming video tutorials over downloadable files.

Here's an example of my latest tutorial purchase from this site, and the issues that may come up with streaming video purchases over downloaded files.

I just purchased the 3D Pre-Viz tutorial on Sunday. So far it's taken me about 3 days of off and on work to get about 20 minutes into the first video. I'd say I’ve sat down about 5 to 7 different times so far over the past 3 days to work on it, which means I’ve had to open my video file and scrub the play head forward to my last position in the video. With a downloaded file on my local disk it's not an issue because I can just scrub my play head forward to my last recorded time, quick and painless. Just this morning I was working on it and then I left for work. I’ll get home tonight, open my video on my second monitor and scrub forward again and continue, stopping and starting and rewinding again the video as I work along in my programs on my pri monitor. And with a tutorial that’s time lapsed I stop, start, and rewind even more. I’ll probably do this every day for the next 2 to 3 weeks as I get through the two videos. I’ll probably go back and watch a few things again if my work is not going right.

Now if I had to jump online and wait for the download stream to get to the last place I left off, each time I sat down to work, I’d probably go mad. And it means I’m downloading the same video a hundred times or more over the next several weeks. I’m not sure this becomes a benefit for anyone at that point, and I’d probably look elsewhere for a similar video series I can download once and freely use on my local disk to work along with. As we all know, when doing a tutorial workflow is important, and if there are interruptions and frustrations outside of the actual work we’re doing it can really kill the mood. When I purchase a video tutorial set I don’t watch it and then work off of memory of what I saw. I work along with it, program on one monitor, video tutorial on the other, watching, rewinding, stopping and starting, scrubbing that play head like a mad man over the next few weeks until I’m happy with what I’ve learned. I’m sure most who purchase video tutorials work this way. I can’t really say I’d want to do this with a streaming video each day.

I’m not complaining or trying to invoked my opinion on anyone. This is just an example of how I work on tutorials that I’ve purchased. I’m sure happy I was able to download my 3D Pre-Viz tutorial on Sunday. And when I get home from work tonight and get settled I’ll open video #1, scrub forward to about 22 minutes, and go thru this workflow all over again.

Exactly this.

It's a shame Jason feels he is forced to go this route.

But in the end I am afraid it will do more harm then good. Less and less people are going to bother buying these videos anymore, because they can only watch them as stream.

One other great thing about downloadable videos is that you can burn them on DVD and watch them on your TV on the big screen :) Or download them to your laptop, go sit outside in the sun, relax and watch.

All that will not be possible anymore!

The sad part in this Jason. Is that you give in into these lousy pirates.

They win and the loyal customer who is willing to pay suffers.

Jer

[Liam Harvey]

Exactly this.

It's a shame Jason feels he is forced to go this route.

But in the end I am afraid it will do more harm then good. Less and less people are going to bother buying these videos anymore, because they can only watch them as stream.

One other great thing about downloadable videos is that you can burn them on DVD and watch them on your TV on the big screen :) Or download them to your laptop, go sit outside in the sun, relax and watch.

All that will not be possible anymore!

The sad part in this Jason. Is that you give in into these lousy pirates.

They win and the loyal customer who is willing to pay suffers.

Jer

I would consider the pirates as "biting the hand that feeds them", so in response jason (the feeder) is removing the food and smacking the pirates across the face (No! bad pirates!).

While i agree that the benifits of downloads you mentioned will not be the same for streaming, the quality and informative content on the streaming vids will not be changed, which is a much better outcome and the greatest benifit to us learning artists.

Think POSITIVE, do things out of your comfort zone.

[wohoo19m]

why not introduce other products? You have these lower cost downloads, then you could also simply offer higher cost downloads that deliver more content.

You could do workshops like cgsociety.org does over the net. With custom courses that involve feedback from someone. These could be a higher cost item.

Also, a subscription membership site would work as well. For a minimal price of 5$. Provide monthly content like ebooks, videos, whatever. Most loyal members would be willing to let go of 5$ a month I hope...( better calculate how much bandwith per customer you use up though so you maybe get a better idea of how much it costs per customer and charge appropriately ).

you won't be stopping the pirating from happenning even if it's just streaming. Since there are softwares that can capture what goes on, on screen. So it'd be pretty simple to do I'd imagine.

Start getting in multiple streams of income. There' always gonna be pirating going on, if you come up with something, someone will find a way to get through it anyway.

[JeroKane]

why not introduce other products? You have these lower cost downloads, then you could also simply offer higher cost downloads that deliver more content.

You could do workshops like cgsociety.org does over the net. With custom courses that involve feedback from someone. These could be a higher cost item.

Also, a subscription membership site would work as well. For a minimal price of 5$. Provide monthly content like ebooks, videos, whatever. Most loyal members would be willing to let go of 5$ a month I hope...( better calculate how much bandwith per customer you use up though so you maybe get a better idea of how much it costs per customer and charge appropriately ).

you won't be stopping the pirating from happenning even if it's just streaming. Since there are softwares that can capture what goes on, on screen. So it'd be pretty simple to do I'd imagine.

Start getting in multiple streams of income. There' always gonna be pirating going on, if you come up with something, someone will find a way to get through it anyway.

That is my concern as well.

This is not going to stop piracy. As as you said it already, they just going to capture the video realtime.

But in return you going to give your loyal customers a harder time, because they are now forced to sit behind a pc with a decent internet connection to watch the videos. Not to mention, wich has been said before, that it becomes just frustrating to watch little bits of the video at a time.

Jer

[Muz]

Go read the rest of the thread before posting.... This ground has been covered 50 million times.

Having post counts of 14 and 1 dont istil much confidence in my beleiving that you have read this thread.

Woo hoo half those ideas are happening... go read..

[wohoo19m]

That's because I haven't read the thread completely. I read page 1-2 and it was the same things basically being repeated, so jumped onto the last page to see if there was any evolution in the problem, which it didn't appear so.

Sorry if I don't have time to read all 200+ replies...

BUT, good thing they are being done if they are.

[JeroKane]

Go read the rest of the thread before posting.... This ground has been covered 50 million times.

Having post counts of 14 and 1 dont istil much confidence in my beleiving that you have read this thread.

Woo hoo half those ideas are happening... go read..

What has my 15 posts to do with this subject? As that is what you are attacking me on.
As I have been lurking around on this site and forums for a very long time. I just finally registered a short while ago.

I have read almost the entire thread (first 4-5 pages and the last one) to see that a lot of people feel the same sentiment.

Going streaming doesn't solve the problem at all. It will only alienate a lot of people with good will.

If Jason can't sell enough videos each month to keep this site running, then he isn't going to sell enough by going streaming either.

Then the problem lies elsewhere. Perhaps it's in the content. That it doesn't sell enough.

And piracy isn't the only problem. The problem is also that the offered paid downloadable type of content. The tuturials. There are a lot of them already available for free on the internet from renown artists offering them through their own sites.

Like Carlos Cabrera. Just to name one so out of the top of my head.

So Jason is, next to piracy also facing competition on the net between free offered tuturial videos against his paid offered tutorial videos.


So again, streaming isn't going magically solve his problems. Maybe it will cut down the bandwith a bit. But the money gained there will be lost with the number of customers who won't bother with streaming videos (for all the (personal) reasons mentioned here already).

I am in no way attacking Jason or anything.

I work in the IT bussiness myself and just express my opinion and concerns on this matter.

Whatever Jason does with it. That is up to him.

Jer

[kraal]

ever think of something like lulu.com to handle downloads

[Arshes Nei]

ever think of something like lulu.com to handle downloads

How does that prevent the piracy?

[JeroKane]

How does that prevent the piracy?

You can't stop piracy. That's the sad morale of this story.

These bastards always find new ways. For every counter messure you come up with to battle them, they find 10 new ways to get around it. And faster then you think.

Jer

[kraal]

How does that prevent the piracy?

it doesnt but the same question can be said to moving to a steaming system.....

i was just addressing the cost issue and bandwidth issue ......

[Arshes Nei]

Here's a better question, why do you guys persist in going in circular arguments?

It's fairly obvious Jason has made his mind now not to mention he has said several times the streaming is up in place, agree with him or not, just let it run and see if it succeeds or fails.

For the record I own quite a bit, I end up buying the dvds because as I stated previously even the downloads aren't exactly convenient for me. I have Marko's Character Ideation, Shawn Barber's Oil Painting, and Dan DosSanto's Oil Painting dvd. In fact, the Character ideation dvd was given to me as a gift and I purchased one as a gift for someone else.

I also purchased James Kei's (both), Whit Brachna's (3 releases), Android's (fine art), Jason Chan (character stye) Nox (both parts) and Richard Doble's downloads (Richard needs a bit more love, his demo is amusing). I have more but they were either purchased for me so I don't think it counts

I also have the Massive Black book too. I also like someone's idea of CA releasing PDF files too.

Also...

it doesnt but the same question can be said to moving to a steaming system.....


http://cdn-write.demandstudios.com/upload//9000/500/40/2/59542.jpg

[SteFlack]

I believe streaming will go a long way to preventing piracy. I can’t see anyone going to the trouble to rerecord the videos now since we’re not talking about the latest movie or album, I don’t think many people outside CA or the art community would know who Andrew or Jason are never mind want to watch them paint for an hour. The main reason the original downloads ended up as torrents is that it’s all too easy to hand them to a friend or even upload them. Surly the only people downloading the videos must already know what they are or why would the average person choose to download it verses the newest film which they too tight and lazy to go see at the cinema.

I can understand that the streaming will not work for everyone but I would much rather they try it as an alternative to help safeguard the future of the videos than just turn a blind eye to the current piracy and maybe only have two or three more videos released before they call it a day and stop producing them all together.

[nickmarshallvfx]

Well, whatever else is going on, im guessing sales of downloads have gone up significantly in the last few days! :)
On that note, im going to go buy a couple myself that i have been meaning to for some time!

Nick

[kraal]

heres what i see and no i am not agueeing or whinning just communicating cause that is what this forum was set up for...... i already stated that i am further on the side of the idea of downloads that i was before....
there is a torrent site that is around just cause it feels education is free. I am sure they are on many site like lynda, fxph, and here just to get info to share on their site. i think steaming will 'feul their fire' giving them a ( wrong) resaon to justify sharing these downloads. Which brings me back to one of my original statements and thoughts. The end just maybe near for this site. If it is trully based on if piracy doesn't stop then the doors will shut. Again just to express to certain people that think i am wasting bandwidth just cause i have an opinion maybe i too should give of list of DVD's i own purchased by me or by relatives ---
1 Jason Chan Painter Sketch
2Andrew Jones Thumbnail Demo
3NoxPart I
4NoxPart II
5Andrew Jones Fine Art #1
6Jason Chan Digital Illustration
7Jason Chan Quick Sketch
8Andrew Jones Boss Monster Part 1
9Andrew Jones Boss Monster Part 2
10Painting an Outdoor Environment with Whit Brachna Part 1
11Painting an Outdoor Environment with Whit Brachna Part 2
12Marko Djurdjevic Character Ideation Complete
13Photoshop Masks with Whit Brachna
14Coro - 3D for Pre-Visualization Part 1
15Coro - 3D for Pre-Visualization Part 2
16James Kei Clothed Figure Painting

[McMillan]

Hey Jason,

I think more needs to be said in appreciation of what has been done for the art community through this site and your team's hard work. I have purchased at least six of the downloads and have spent hundreds of hours lurking the site as a visitor. Most of my education has come from this site and others that I have found from being on this site.

My current profession is in the music industry as an independent record producer/engineer. My reason for making music has never been as a means to making money, but I have faced the same issue of not being able to make music full time because people have undervalued my work enough to take it without considering what that means to my future ability to make it.

I think we as forward thinking artists who currently have a career in the digital domain or are attempting one, should appreciate where CA is at and the steps they have to take to remain operating. These are issues that will affect all of us at some point personally as the producer of intellectual properties and not just a consumer. I think the point has been made clear by now that Jason is attempting to continue to culminate a greater level of education in the masses but it has to pay for itself.

Obviously, I support paying for aspects of the site. I don't want one more reoccurring bill, and I'm not made of money or have great bandwidth, but I think it is worth it. One thing we could do is look at it as investing into your own career. Also, we can accept this as a challenge to find a way to afford it or make it work for us. It's a great chance to learn a skill that is paramount for success in any creative field, and that is making it pay for itself.

Chris

[Sickbrush]

mister jason, i only got one thing to say.

do whatever you need to do in order to keep this world alive and kicking.
good luck.

[RyanSC]

This isnt going to stop piracy, they can get around this. the only thing its going to stop is customers... some people wont be able to watch these any more because they have slow internet. People want a actual download so they can watch it when they don't have a internet connection. Since people want a actual file on there computer they will turn to piracy...

[Brashen]

Why isn't this thread closed yet??

[Hive_minD]

I must say I do prefer a download which I can keep and watch whenever I want, but I totally except it and understand it. Good luck MB, -Jason.
I'll still support you guys anyways!

[kraal]

Why isn't this thread closed yet??

i am sure it will be closed once a date is posted...untill then no matter how much we ramble on here the thread is still relevant