hr 1388 GIVE act

[Dimension]

This bill will pass.

"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to acheive national security objectives we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded."

Obama

"Here’s how it would work. Young people will know that between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five, the nation will enlist them for three months of civilian service. They’ll be asked to report for three months of basic civil defense training in their state or community, where they will learn what to do in the event of biochemical, nuclear or conventional attack; how to assist others in an evacuation; how to respond when a levee breaks or we’re hit by a natural disaster. These young people will be available to address their communities’ most pressing needs."

Rahm Emanual, Chief of Staff

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=7108689

http://www.infowars.com/house-passes-mandatory-national-service-bill/

http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=862

[Not Pink]

They're only preparing us for the inevitable zombie/fallout/opening the portals of hell apocalypse!

but seriously, it takes balls for the gov't to actually admit something like this can happen and are willing to prepare everyone for it. most the time, gov't's just turn the other cheek and take a "if it happen's, we'll fix it" approach and actually showing us "here's what might happen, and here's what to do". They just keep civilians in the false idea that something like that can't happen, keeps us fat and happy.

I can't wait for my Headshot 101 class.

or oh! a "DIY gas masks and other necessities for the apocalypse" seminar.

[Nam]

Yay, brainwash camp.

There's no fucking way I'm doing this.

[hippl5]

They're only preparing us for the inevitable zombie/fallout/opening the portals of hell apocalypse!


I can't wait for my Headshot 101 class.



Guns, gas masks, and post-apocalyptic warfare or I'm not doing this.

[Equality72521]

one step away from having the government hand out all of our food. Someone tried that once, it started with a C...

what was that...


Oh yeah, Communism!

[Twiggy]

Yes, the new ressistance will become a reality, count me in. Sick of sitting like a potatoe, it's about time we should stick up for ourselfs against the dangers of world, like nature intended back in the glorious saber-tooth hunting days.

If you are listening, this IS John Conner.

[Blahm]

yea they are preparing us for what they are going to do to us lol.

Thank god i am to old for this rediculious "National Security Draft".

[N D Hill]

Ha. He has clearly underestimated the fierce determination that the American youth have for sitting on their asses.

[DeadlyFreeze]

Oh ya gotta watch out for those AmeriCorps kids, couple years of volunteer community service can turn you into one hell of a military killing machine.

[Dimension]

Here's an update from today. It's moving along.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/Expanded-Americorps-has-an-authoritarian-feel-41889742.html

Blahm: I posted a quote from the article below. I recall reading an article about a week ago which mentioned everyone up to the age of 65 I think will be required to perform some sort of service. *cough* Communism *cough* All middle school and high school kids may also be required to perform 50 hours of service a year. Doing what, I'm not sure exactly. I haven't gotten around to reading through the whole bill yet. It's long...

It anticipates the possibility of requiring “all individuals in the United States” to perform such service – including elementary school students.

Also, it's probably worth noting that this is a direct violation of the thirteenth amendment. Wikipedia says:

"The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution officially abolished and continues to prohibit slavery and involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime"

My question is what kind of precident bills like this set.

They just keep civilians in the false idea that something like that can't happen

WHAT??? Seriously? For the last 8 years all you hear about are terrorism, chemical weapons, anthrax, Al Qeida, Iran and WMD's. You can't bring bottled water on a plane anymore.

Nam: There are provisions in the bill if I recall correctly that will make it illegal to protest this. I'm also curious what penalties there will be if you fail to show up. Prison?

[Dirty C]

Why is it anything which doesn't happen in America normally is instantly labeled 'communist'?

The slavery line is pretty silly - you're saying that it never occurred to you in World War 1 and 2? Or Vietnam? But three months of community service and you're invoking slavery. Come on, some perspective?

Compulsory military service existed in a lot of countries only recently. Still does in most beleaguered nations. I'm not in favour of that, but something just being civil safety seems ok.

That examiner link is a total anti-obama dude btw. Americorps (I'd never heard of it) seems to just work with charities. Where's the big scary deal?

[chriskot]

Also, it's probably worth noting that this is a direct violation of the thirteenth amendment. Wikipedia says:

"The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution officially abolished and continues to prohibit slavery and involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime"

I'd say this sounds more like mandatory schooling or (at worst) a draft then servitude to me. Wikipedia also says that "In Butler v. Perry, 240 U.S. 328 (1916), the Supreme Court ruled that the military draft was not 'involuntary servitude'."

Either way, I don't really know what else to say to this. I don't really mind doing community service in any of the ways they described, but guess I'm still glad that I don't have to worry about this since I live in Canada. Here in Ontario, you have to do a minimum of 40 hours of community service before you can graduate from high school. Is there anything like that in the US?

EDIT: Also, I basically agree with what Dirty C just said.

[Dimension]

Dirty C: During WWI, WW2 and Vietnam they used the Military draft which is a separate issue. I wasn't refering to slavery, but rather involuntary servitude which is different.

Sorry for the extremely right wing link. It would be nice if there were some more balanced articles. I can't find any. It's either this bill is amazing or look out for Adolf Obama. All of the Left wing articles seem to completley ignore all of the potential issues.

Where's the big scary deal?

You only have to look at history to see what the scary deal is. Italy, Germany, Russia all had similar programs and look what happened there. I'm not necessarily saying the same thing will happen, but pointing out that there are similarities. I do not think it should be within the Governments power to conscript citizens for National service. Defending your country from Nazi Germany is one thing, but this is much different.

I don't really mind doing community service in any of the ways they described

Me neither, but being told when, where and how much I would have to do and what kind of service I have to perform under the threat of prison/heavy fines (I'm assuming) is different. How this is Volunteering is beyond me.

Why is it anything which doesn't happen in America normally is instantly labeled 'communist'?


First, every citizen is required to do their National service. Second, the state pays for it. I'd call that Socialist. If that isn't, I don't know what is.

[Aphotic Phoenix]

Here in Ontario, you have to do a minimum of 40 hours of community service before you can graduate from high school. Is there anything like that in the US?
I remember having to do a similar amount of community service and write a paper about it to pass civics class.

[l33t fl33t]

I think the crux of the issue is that this national service is not voluntary, hence, a lot of people (and I'd say quite justly so) see it as both an infringement on their rights and brainwashing camp.

Which way you swing is strongly determined by whether you trust your government or not.

[squidmonk3j]

this is one of those things that might actually work better in practice than in theory. implementing a basic feeling of relevant participation in society beyond the consumer/producer-cycle seems like a pretty good idea, especially if your nation -is- as fractured and shattered as it appears to be to the rest of the world.

[l33t fl33t]

this is one of those things that might actually work better in practice than in theory. implementing a basic feeling of relevant participation in society beyond the consumer/producer-cycle seems like a pretty good idea, especially if your nation -is- as fractured and shattered as it appears to be to the rest of the world.

Absolutely. The question is, who will they be loyal to - their government or their community?

Also, what do you hope to achieve by FORCING people to participate in their community, "a change of heart"? What kind of communities do these people live in if you have to force them to cooperate?

[Atlantis]

Can you imagine if Bush had tried to pull this? I think a lot of people who are now saying "what's the big deal" would be looking at it rather differently.

[Hyskoa]

What happens if you refuse? Jailtime?

[squidmonk3j]

What kind of communities do these people live in if you have to force them to cooperate?

urban communities, i suppose.

human consciousness, at least on a day-to-day level, does not appear to deal well with matters that extend beyond the personal and tribal realm. nevermind people starving in africa, we are oblivious to people dying on the sidewalk on our way to work.

actual social integration by way of being "forced" to participate in local / social matters seems far superior to that of being "forced" to participate in the global / economic cycle.

this initiative might help towards alleviating the sense of being a stranger in one's community, is all i'm saying.

[Matsign]

I also get the feeling like they have something more in store for this in the near future. The feeling of danger has been watered down due to media over-exposure. Where's the one common enemy for this paramilitary force to rise against?

I hope we get some cool knifes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_youth_knife) or something...

[smugbug]

Wow. Lots of knee jerk/reactionary responses here.

Simple question: how many of you actually read the bill? Show of hands.......(1, that would be me). First of all, this is not mandatory. This is by volunteer. For example, if you are of college age and would like to receive some college $$ - you can volunteer to a service (that has been set up) that would HELP out your community. Hence, community service.

At the beginning of the bill, under "Purpose", there is this:


‘(9) recognize and increase the impact of social entrepreneurs and other nonprofit community organizations in addressing national and local challenges;

‘(10) increase public and private investment in nonprofit community organizations that are effectively addressing national and local challenges and to encourage such organizations to replicate and expand successful initiatives;

‘(11) leverage Federal investments to increase State, local, business, and philanthropic resources to address national and local challenges;

‘(12) expand and strengthen service-learning programs through year-round opportunities, including during the summer months, to improve the education of children and youth and to maximize the benefits of national and community service, in order to renew the ethic of civic responsibility and the spirit of community to children and youth throughout the United States;

‘(13) assist in coordinating and strengthening Federal and other service opportunities, including opportunities for participation in emergency and disaster preparedness, relief, and recovery;

‘(14) increase service opportunities for our Nation’s retiring professionals, including such opportunities for those retiring from the science, technical, engineering, and mathematics professions to improve the education of our Nation’s youth and keep America competitive in the global knowledge economy, and to further utilize the experience, knowledge, and skills of older Americans;

‘(15) encourage the continued service of the alumni of the national service programs, including service in times of national need;

‘(16) support institutions of higher education that engage students in community service activities, provide service-learning courses, and encourage or assist graduates to pursue careers in public service in the nonprofit or government sector;

‘(17) encourage members of the Baby Boom generation to partake in service opportunities.’.


Anything insidious about the above?

Under "definitions":


(2) by inserting after paragraph (2) the following:

‘(3) APPROVED SUMMER OF SERVICE POSITION- The term ‘approved summer of service position’ means a position in a program described under section 120(c)(8) for which the Corporation has approved the provision of a summer of service educational award as one of the benefits to be provided for successful service in the position.

‘(4) BABY BOOM GENERATION- The term ‘Baby Boom generation’ means the generation that consists of individuals born during the period beginning with 1946 and ending with 1964.’;


Under "Part III -- INNOVATIVE DEMONSTRATION SERVICE-LEARNING PROGRAMS AND RESEARCH"


‘(c) Authorized Activities- Funds under this part may be used to--

‘(1) integrate service-learning programs into the science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) curricula at the elementary, secondary, or post-secondary, and post-baccalaureate levels in coordination with practicing or retired STEM professionals;

‘(2) involve students in service-learning programs focusing on energy conservation in their community, including conducting educational outreach on energy conservation and working to improve energy efficiency in low income housing and in public spaces;

‘(3) involve students in service-learning projects in emergency and disaster preparedness;

‘(4) involve students in service-learning projects aimed at improving access to and obtaining benefits from computers and other emerging technologies, including improving such access to individuals with disabilities, in low income or rural communities, in senior centers and communities, in schools, in libraries, and in other public spaces;

‘(5) involve high school age youth in the mentoring of middle school youth while involving all participants in service-learning to seek to meet unmet human, educational, environmental, public safety, or emergency disaster preparedness needs in their community;

‘(6) conduct research and evaluations on service-learning, including service-learning in middle schools, and disseminate such research and evaluations widely;

‘(7) conduct innovative and creative activities as described in section 111(b);

‘(8) establish or implement summer of service programs (giving priority to programs that enroll youth in grades 6 through 9) during the summer months, including the cost of recruitment, training, and placement of service-learning coordinators--
‘(A) for youth who will be enrolled in any grade from grade 6 through grade 12 at the end of the summer concerned;
‘(B) for community-based service-learning projects that--
‘(i) shall--
‘(I) meet unmet human, educational, environmental (including energy conservation and stewardship), emergency and disaster preparedness, and public service needs; and
‘(II) be intensive, structured, supervised, and designed to produce identifiable improvements to the community; and
‘(ii) may include the extension of academic year service-learning programs into the summer months;
1‘(C) under which any student who completes 100 hours of service in an approved summer of service position, as certified through a process determined by the Corporation through regulations consistent with section 138(f), shall be eligible for a summer of service educational award of not more than $500 (or, at the discretion of the Chief Executive Officer, not more than $1,000 in the case of a participant who is economically disadvantaged) from funds deposited in the National Service Trust and distributed by the Corporation as described in section 148; and
‘(D) subject to the limitation that a student may not receive more than 2 summer of service educational awards from funds deposited in the National Service Trust;

‘(9) establish or implement youth engagement zone service learning programs in youth engagement zones for students in secondary school served by local educational agencies where a majority of such students do not participate in service learning activities carried out by eligible partnerships as defined in paragraph (4) that are designed to--
‘(A) involve all students in secondary school in the local educational agency in service-learning to address a specific community challenge;
‘(B) improve student engagement, including student attendance and student behavior, and student achievement, graduation rates, and college-going rates in secondary schools;
‘(C) involve an increasing percentage of students in secondary school and out-of-school youth in the community in school-based or community based service-learning activities each year, with the goal of involving all students in secondary schools served by the local educational agency and involving an increasing percentage of the out-of-school youth in service learning activities; and
‘(D) encourage participants to engage in service throughout their lives; and

‘(10) carry out any other innovative service-learning programs or research that the Corporation considers appropriate.
‘(d) Priority- Priority shall be given to programs that--
‘(1) involve students and community stakeholders in the design and implementation of the service-learning program;
‘(2) implement service-learning programs in low-income or rural communities; and
‘(3) utilize adult volunteers, including tapping the resource of retired and retiring adults, in the planning and implementation of the service-learning programs.



After 8-years of mindless consumerism, it's refreshing to see that someone (*cough* President *cough*) actually wants more engagement from the people. Volunteer community service is actually a GOOD thing.

[s.ketch]

America: Where making people take action is worse than allowing them to do nothing.

You're right guys, fuck participating in our communities, that's commie talk.

[Dimension]

First of all, this is not mandatory

It looks like they've taken the words manditory out, but have introduced new bills to investigate the posibility.

Rahm Emanuel (Obamas Chief of staff) has stated that he wants to have compulsory service. We'll see where this goes...

[Cthogua]

What scares me a bit about this is just a few days ago I was reading an article (which I'm having a really hard time trying to find now....) about how the Department of Defense was looking to train and send more civilian employees into combat zones in support roles. That policy combined with the compulsory service could essentially equate to a new kind of draft, without ever needing to use the word "draft."

On the non-paranoid side I can see a lot of potential social benefit from making 18 year-olds get out in their communities and do something. In fact considering the job market at least there's some opportunity. Honestly I think a lot of people would probably get more out of college if they went in a little later. What gets me about all this "communism/socialism" talk is that we're actively throwing away the beneficial aspects of those systems, all while keeping (and not just recently) the broken, inefficient, competition and productivity killing aspects. That's essentially what "Privatize the gains, Socialize the losses" means. We subsidize (and once again...not just recently) failing industries, all while selling the notion that the free market is the pinnacle of economic evolution. The top 1% have been enjoying the benefits of socialism for quite some time, while everyone else is left to fight over the scraps, and told that it's a free market. Meanwhile any attempt to actually use government resources to benefit society, and not just funnel money to the already rich, providing education, medical care, supporting arts or culture immediately brings great cries of "Obammunism! Socialism! COMMUNISM!!" Hasn't America's agricultural center been on government life support for years now? It seems like if these guys really believed in the power of the free market, the losses should be privatized, and the gains socialized. Failure is what drives the free market, it's the fire the fuels the engine of competition. Too much success ultimately stifles competition. Companies become "too big to fail" and suddenly the forces that brought them great riches are a threat to our entire nations stability.

It's also arguable that unrestrained, free-market capitalism is anti-community, and perhaps ultimately even anti-state as it encourages individualism over community responsibility and disparages any attempt to help others, provide for a "common good," (which honestly is a nebulous concept, that doesn't negate it though) or create a social safety net as coddling at best, and at worst a waste.

Honestly I'm just ranting at this point...needless to say I'm neither a staunch free-marketeer nor a socio-commie whatever. In fact seeing them in such a polar, exclusive way is destructive as neither system is perfect. Capitalism, if completely unrestrained is socially destructive. Communism, if untempered is economically destructive. Both need the other to fill in their weak spots.

[Dimension]

It's not so much the bill itself that I have problems with, but the current world context it's being presented in. The U.S. is on the verge of economic collapse (Many experts beleive), China, Russia and France amongh other nations have expressed interest in a global currency and would thus drop the U.S. dollar, the threat of war with Iran still looms overhead, they're still talking about anthrax and chemical attacks, the U.S dollar is weak despite what Barack Obama may say, the potential for civil unrest looms as the economy weakens and jobs are lost, the Mexican border is a mess, the nations debt is higher than ever, and on and on.

If things get worse, and potentialy very bad (another 911, another war, collapse of the dollar) and the U.S. has no money but this huge National civilian force, what do you think will happen?

Call me paranoid, but I don't trust any government.

[s.ketch]

The thing is though, its not like this is the first or last time these things will happen. World powers come and go. There have been more people than we can count who have lived through financial crisis, wars, attacks, and failed government policies. This is the nature of the world. We have to become somewhat comfortable with the idea that the U.S, or even the world, will not continue to exist exactly the same way it always has. There will be big changes and not all of them we will like. It doesn't spell out the end of the world or freedom though. As many unique things that are happening in the world right now we must not forget that history repeats itself and these are not totally unique times. Regardless of whether you are right or left, buying into the the fear and helplessness that is sold on your TV every day only makes you more controllable. If people here really fear a government take over, its counter intuitive to fear it.

[Blahm]

This is how i see this whole thing playing out. They just past the "Give" act with alot of nonsensical language about education communities about disaster releif and crap. Then in 10 years we will probly see the "GIVE MOAR" act with even more nonsensical long winded language that makes people feel all emotional about nothing. Then in 20 years we will most likely see the "GIVE IT ALL" act with an additional amount of ridiculous word magic that attempts to make us feel like we are the problem and need to police ourselfs becuase the governement cant really afford to anymore.

[Chingwa]

"When an opponent declares,
'I will not come over to your side...'
I calmly say, 'Your child belongs to us already…
What are you? You will pass on.

Your descendants, however,
now stand in the new camp.
In a short time they will know nothing
else but this new community.'"

-Adolf Hitler
(emphasis added)


This is a bad idea. here's a better idea in response... FIRE CONGRESS (http://www.firecongress.org/).

[Xeom]

We should head into a libertarian Ayn Rand like Utopia!(go galt like some of the smarter members of congress have said).and wtf, community services uggghhh

O yea and totally agree man obama is basicly Hitler, why can't people realize this ? I mean Hitler was like the master of communism and shit next to Stalin ya know? Any social services besides cops and the army(we have to kill those dumb terrorists) is totally evil.

We need a libertarian revolution in this country!

[DSillustration]

We should head into a libertarian Ayn Rand like Utopia!(go galt like some of the smarter members of congress have said).and wtf, community services uggghhh

O yea and totally agree man obama is basicly Hitler, why can't people realize this ? I mean Hitler was like the master of communism and shit next to Stalin ya know? Any social services besides cops and the army(we have to kill those dumb terrorists) is totally evil.

We need a libertarian revolution in this country!

Thanks for that incredibly enlightening post.
Apparently, I had it all wrong.

[N D Hill]

This shit is hilarious. Gotta love the fox news generation of reactionary, trash-tv politics. The 8 year and counting media war waged on our intelligence is going to take a very long time to heal from apparently.

Lounge mods: I know this will end up getting locked but can we bump this thread in four years so those of us who don't eagerly lap the bullshit up from the trough can say "I told you so" when we are not all in death camps by then?

In other news, that coffee mug that the news man said would kill me, has not killed me. I survived the "summer of the shark" too. I'm really trying to keep my sense of humor through all this nonsense. Really, it's actually quite difficult to mask my disgust at everyone who has ever equated anyone who has not gassed six million Jews to Adolf Hitler. All the blubbering TV assholes who throw that metaphor around have never suffered a single day in their fat, numb lives.

Stop being him -> R3Ebo4UhloU

[romance]

Lolz.... artists. shouldn't you guys be painting "we need you" propaganda posters or sumthin?

[s.ketch]

Stop being him -> R3Ebo4UhloU

But being him is so fun. It feels great to feel passionate about something. I like to believe strongly in something. Regardless of what it is that I am feeling strongly about, as long as I am passionate, it does not matter. Getting up on a soap box and talking loudly is a lot better than being calm, logical and critical. Pathos has more of an impact than Logos.

[Blahm]

at any point in this did he say "Back to you chuck." ?

[Nam]

He's just pointing out history, something Hitler said. He didn't say Obama was Hitler so stop being such a squirmy little baby about it. I guess it would be foolish to gloss through history for lessons though. Apparently there's no sobriety in the notion that power corrupts, and has corrupted, for as long as there's been civilization. Are you ignorant enough to say it's been eradicated though? That mankind has reached a new plateau of morality? I'm sorry I must be on the wacky backy again. If I were to go back to 2002 and say "we're going to be in this war seven years from now and its scope will have expanded from what it was said it was going to be going in, we're going to just keep pounding and balkanizing the shit out of these guys with our zionist buddies, in fact we keep sending more troops and we also do end up torturing the shit out of some of their POWs." Would you believe me? If I went back in time to describe the patriot act before it rolled right through before anyone even knew what happened, would you believe me? Yea, I'm sure the same party of gov antagonist tomato throwers would be open to the possibility.

In any case, there's no harm in being vigilant and I think it's pretty fucking disgusting when people get castigated for questioning the government and keeping an eye on things. Is it hurting you? The possibility is there whether you want to believe it or not.

[Dian3]

I mean Hitler was like the master of communism

http://www.embacubalebanon.com/images/che032.jpg

Che Facepalm

[s.ketch]

In any case, there's no harm in being vigilant and I think it's pretty fucking disgusting when people get castigated for questioning the government and keeping an eye on things.

I think its pretty fucking disgusting when people are made out to be ignorant fools for not running around saying the sky is falling every time a bill is discussed.

[Xeom]

I don't think I could have made my post any more of an obvious troll :V

[Goog]

I don't think I could have made my post any more of an obvious troll :V

sadly, it is hard to tell the trolls from the serious people these days...

I love when he says, "...got ya'll in a traaance."

yTp_atr2G9E&feature

[N D Hill]

He's just pointing out history, something Hitler said. He didn't say Obama was Hitler so stop being such a squirmy little baby about it. I guess it would be foolish to gloss through history for lessons though. Apparently there's no sobriety in the notion that power corrupts, and has corrupted, for as long as there's been civilization. Are you ignorant enough to say it's been eradicated though? That mankind has reached a new plateau of morality? I'm sorry I must be on the wacky backy again. If I were to go back to 2002 and say "we're going to be in this war seven years from now and its scope will have expanded from what it was said it was going to be going in, we're going to just keep pounding and balkanizing the shit out of these guys with our zionist buddies, in fact we keep sending more troops and we also do end up torturing the shit out of some of their POWs." Would you believe me? If I went back in time to describe the patriot act before it rolled right through before anyone even knew what happened, would you believe me? Yea, I'm sure the same party of gov antagonist tomato throwers would be open to the possibility.

In any case, there's no harm in being vigilant and I think it's pretty fucking disgusting when people get castigated for questioning the government and keeping an eye on things. Is it hurting you? The possibility is there whether you want to believe it or not.

You completely misunderstand me. Questioning the governing process is great. The whole point of democracy should be that it is only ever one election away from revision. However it cripples itself when people fail to inform themselves and get cought up in baseless fervor, drama and glamor. That's why the US House of Reps usually has an incumbency rate of over %90 yet an approval rating that's usually below 30 percent. People are voting based on talking points and party lines and not informing themselves on issues and actual results.

Equating voluntary community service programs in which the participant is granted education funding as a sign of coming socialist apocalypse is about as far away from objective reasoning as you can get. Everyone's crying socialism. In fact it's been downright programmed from new 24 hour news profiteering machine that sees decisiveness as a commodity it can bank on. This isn't dialog when your just spewing the Sean Hannity brand of paranoia and paying credence to every hack who claims whoever happens to be in power may be the antichrist. It's a fucking spectacle and Americans we should be embarrassed when we're more captivated by whatever Chuck Norris rants about between signing his Walker Texas Ranger royalty checks. Bush lasted eight years because the spectacle generated by his opposition detracted from any serious credibility they should've had and used to make formal accusations. Do you honestly think a dialog can take place when the best anyone can do is say "hmm. you know who else said 'yes we can' in their campaign? Fucking Hitler, man!" But hell, why wouldn't we get caught up in that shit? The real language that PatriciaS quoted is fucking boring, right?

[Chingwa]

You guys are too sensitive. I never even remotely said Obama was Hitler. In fact I didn't even mention Obama, I mentioned Congress, but whatever.

I mentioned a great quote from Hitler who, unfathomable or not, was more honest than our modern day politicians in some of the alternative motives that a centralized government has to educate your children. I don't think it's the federal government's role to form a youth corp movement to "educate" the kids of this country. Who will approve the curriculum? Will parent's be involved or even consulted? This is simply more overbearing nanny-state federal interference in the going-on of everyday life.

I know they're now saying that this will be a voluntary program, but they weren't always saying that and in fact Rahm is on published record stating that he wants to require mandatory service for everyone of age. So you can either sit back and relax and trust these politician crooks (and they're ALL crooks) since its obvious that they only have America's interests at heart and would never ever infringe on a single one of your constitutional self evident rights.... or you can take EVERYTHING THEY SAY with a raised eyebrow. I choose the latter.

Involuntary "service" (enlistment/draft/conscription) is unconstitutional and even more important, morally wrong. it doesn't matter an ounce how the supreme court "interprets" the constitution to the passing whims of society... the supreme court gave us George Bush which was also unconstitutional.

Government is empowered by your acquiescence. I'll say it again... FIRE CONGRESS (http://www.firecongress.org/).

-----

"Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing often and for the same reason!" - Mark Twain

[Blahm]

some visual aids

[Dimension]

N D Hill: Socialism never happens over night, many small steps are taken to evolve from one system to another. It's not only this bill that concerns me, but the political and economic climate as I metioned earlier and the part this bill could play, especially if service becomes manditory. There are just too many political, economic and global factors right now which history has taught some of us could lead to the collapse of the free market system in America.

I have never before seen such faith and hope placed in a leader, especially a leader with no real track record and a leader that has proven nothing. What has Obama done for you so far. Has he made any real proposal to pull out of Iraq (I think it's at suggested 23 months now)? Has he put a stop to wire tapping with no warrant? Has he closed Guantanimo? No. All of these promises he made in his campaign. But you've all forgotten that already, you're all caught up in the AIG bonus scandle while trillions of your tax money is handed over to the corporations that caused this mess. Meanwhile wealth is being consolidated by the larger banks and your tax dollars are being invested off shore. Geithner (treasury secretary) and Bernake (Fed Reserve) want to set up a one world currency and world bank so they can take all of the money from the American populace (which they are doing right before your eyes). Meanwhile Obama curtly denies any potential for a world bank and currency. This economic collapse is manufactured, all you have to do is about a days research to figure that out. Do you even know that the federal reserve is a private entity? They lend money to the government? To you? Do you know they are under no government authority?

I just saw today Obama speaking about military involvement in Pakistan. Apearantly there's Al Qeida in the mountains and so is Bin Laden. Where next, Iran? They'll already have troops surrounding Iran on all sides. He seems to be moving ahead with all of Bush's policies but repeating the words "yes we can" and "change". My question is yes we can what? Change what? How? I wish I could like him. He speaks well, he's inteligent, but he's leading America down a dangerous trail.

There's already talk of hyperinflation (as in using wheelbarrows of money to buy bread) and the complete destruction or phasing out of the American currency, and the North American Union, Nationalism in America is more rampant than ever, You have a general populace with complete faith in their saviour from that bad man Bush, and soon you'll have brigades of youth and even seniors doing who knows what as of now. I've even seen mention of compulsory 3 years service. Why this stuff is even on the table in a free country is beyond me.
What happens when you have a worthless dollar, but lots of tanks and and an extremely nationalistic country? I could keep going, but all of the information is out there.

It looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, but everyone keeps telling me it's not a duck.

Here's some Hitler quotes, because I know you guys love them :)

"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think."

"If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed. "

"The art of leadership... consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention."

Another quote:

"Because if you lived, as I did, several years under Nazi totalitarianism, and then 20 years in communist totalitarianism, you would certainly realize how precious freedom is, and how easy it is to lose your freedom."

Milos Forman (Film Director)

[l33t fl33t]

Despite being a murdering bastard, Hitler knew what he was talking about when it comes to politics. It's "good" to see that modern politicians have such a good teacher.

It's amusing to see how far people are willing to go to avoid taking responsibility for themselves and the world they live in.

[Xeom]

Just a reminder that theirs nothing wrong with socialism.

I'm hoping this depression really weakens capital, and people wake up to its systemic problems.

[l33t fl33t]

Just a reminder that theirs nothing wrong with socialism.

Ah yes, bribing your voter base with welfare checks is the epitome of good stewardship.


I'm hoping this depression really weakens capital, and people wake up to its systemic problems.

Which systematic problems? The fact that corporate lobbies run their country or that it's their bloody duty to take care of their country?

[Xeom]

systemic not systematic.

The part where the many must whor themselves out for the few?

EDIT:Apparently i can't edit in the full word for whor

[Kek]

We should be comparing the teleprompter to Hitler, not the guy who reads it.

[DeadlyFreeze]

Can you guys stomp on godwin's law a bit more this thread isn't nearly as ridiculous as it should be yet.

[Dimension]

Would you prefer we quoted Castro, Mao, Mussolini, Stalin, Lenin, Kim Jong Il?
Godwin's law is the stupidest shit I've ever seen. Here's my law, I call it the Tomato law.

The longer any internet discussion becomes, the more likely it becomes that analogies between the topic of discussion and Tomatoes will arrise.

NO FUCKING SHIT!

[l33t fl33t]

The part where the many must whor themselves out for the few?


Well, it could be worse. You could be whoring yourselves for the many AND the few.

EDIT: But, truth be told, the only systemic problem is that people don't demand accountability from their elected representatives. Last I checked, we were electing public SERVANTS, not King and Court. Apparently somebody should tell the Kind and Court about that.

[Nam]

Just so you know, this isn't dead. Also Patricia, the mandatory bits were removed and have now been moved into a separate bill; HR 1444. The language is very ambiguous.

(5) The effect on the Nation, on those who serve, and on the families of those who serve, if all individuals in the United States were expected to perform national service or were required to perform a certain amount of national service.


(6) Whether a workable, fair, and reasonable mandatory service requirement for all able young people could be developed, and how such a requirement could be implemented in a manner that would strengthen the social fabric of the Nation and overcome civic challenges by bringing together people from diverse economic, ethnic, and educational backgrounds.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1444/text
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1444/show
http://www.infowars.com/mandatory-service-bill-lives-on/

[Dimension]

Yeah, saw that. People still seem more interested in iphones and wii's than the fact that their civil liberties are being pulled out from underneath them. Honestly, I don't even know what to say to the people that keep ignoring this.

[ShroudStar]

Keeping my eyes on updates of this. While I voted for Obama, I'm always watching to see what the president will do while in office. While this can be a symptom of "Chicken Little" with the sky falling down and all, it won't hurt to be wary. If indeed it proves to be an Orwellian nightmare, it'll be something to stand against and quickly before it becomes a behemoth.

Anything infringing on civil liberties is a big issue. Totalitarian governments aren't built overnight - the most insidious steps are the subtle ones. And while I don't see the US of A heading in that direction, it's always been a big fear of mine. All that I know is that if that eventually happens in my lifetime, I'll rather be an underground rebel than someone succumbing to government pressure.

[DeadlyFreeze]

1. Please write your reason for being unable to attend jury duty.

INFRIGEN ON MAH CIVIL LIBERTYS!11!!1


...ya I bet its just like that, you guys are so hardcore.