Translating Bammes on ice

[Φ phil]

PLZ read last post


well, well…I just got hold of the anatomy book "Der Nakte Mensch" by Gottfried Bammes and I was browsing the forums about the book before…and apparently there is no english version (? correct me if Im wrong, will you?)
as I am one of the blessed human beings talking&writing both, english and german ;) I though, hey why dont you do something for the community that has (already) done sooo much for you?
of course, Ill only do that if it wasnt done before and if some pplz want this. I think the books still great without the text, but its really lovely extra information.

just yell in here, Im willing to serve the community :yayca:

have a good one

[Φ phil]

btw. Its a biiiig book(around 400 pages), this would take a while. I cant say how long, Ill try and translate the first chapter…and see if it id possible ;)
also, Ill leave some stuff, index for ex…etc, ok?

[Collywobbles]

I would appreciate it. I have always wondered what the writing was like, the pictures are fantastic. It would be funny if it was the opposite of Loomis, like he's an advocate of guessing proportion and eyeballing perspective. 400 pages filled with insults to the reader and overall defeatism. Good luck, man.

[Straight Edge Ryan]

I would also like to help if I can. Granted I'm not fluent in German but I need to brush up on it anyway

[Φ phil]

Collywobbles: haha, thanks I can use the luck;) Ill try. worst case is…not being able to do it……we'll see

Straight Edge Ryan: ah, thanks man! that would be great. considering your location, you certainly could correct the english version(?) or do you even feel like translating a german text? its not the easiest text Ive ever seen…
anyway, what we wanna do is translating the main idea of the text, and not a perfect version of the book. Ill start to translate the 1st chapter tomorrow.
oh,btw, I wont do this at home when I could use the time to draw. Ill do it in school, then I might even learn something there ;)

overall Id say this will take from 3 weeks to 2 months, really NO idea how this is going to work out…least I can do is try
youll need a lill patience though:)

and input is always welcome

[Kiera]

Good luck on translating Bammes, his sentences are endless scientific poems with simple and obvious things described as pompous, strange and complicated as humanly possible. At least "Gestalt des Menschen" made me laugh several times, maybe "der nackte Mensch" is a bit more readable.
I still hope you make it, English readers are missing a lot

a simple, randomly picked sentence about the human head from "Gestalt des Menschen"
"Er widerstrebt nicht der menschlichen Würde, ihm als der Bekrönung (sic) menschlicher Leibesorganisation von sachlicher Seite Klärung angedeihen zu lassen, im Gegenteil, grade die Einmaligkeit seiner Individualität wirft die Frage nach allgemeinen baulichen Grundsätzen, körperhaft-räumlicher Ordnung und architektonischer Gefüge auf."
how would you translate this? By simplifying it to the essence of the sentence or by word-for-word translation?

[janni]

bigfooTrooper, thats a generous offer, but i think that:

a) translating and publishing (making available online) would certainly infringe someones copyrights.

and

b) the writing in the book is realy not a huge loss. there is nothing in it you can't find in Bridgman, Loomis or some of the other great anatomy volumes out there.. golfinger..

Bammes is alright for his illustrations. those explain what he's trying to say 10times clearer than his ugly words.

so, save youself the pain. :)

[EightArms]

May have already been done, Dover lists this, here's the listing on Amazon...

http://www.amazon.com/Artists-Guide-Human-Anatomy/dp/0486436411/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237940074&sr=8-1

[MidgardSerpent]

May have already been done, Dover lists this, here's the listing on Amazon...

http://www.amazon.com/Artists-Guide-Human-Anatomy/dp/0486436411/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237940074&sr=8-1
I don't know how it compares to Nackte Mensch, but it's quite different from Gestalt des Menschen, it has much fewer pages, consisting of mostly student's drawings. Gestalt has far better illustrations, and basically covers considerable more material. It's worth it based on the pictures alone, you can get supplemental info from other books.

[Φ phil]

Kiera: something like that…"It is not against the human dignity to explain the organisation of the body, the opposite is ture, it is his uniqueness that askes for some principles of designs…"

a) translating and publishing (making available online) would certainly infringe someones copyrights

I wasnt thinking about that…at all…lol, that makes it probably impossible cuz I wont…I WONT harm any copyrights!
unless there are some exceptions for translating, the plan is screwed…:dead:
big apologize! I just wasnt thinking enough, so the link from EightArms is the solution for now…

sorry again, feeling stupid……maybe I get another chance to "serve the community"……

(remove all the thanks above please)

EDIT: well, changing my mind every day…lol

[Bill]

...maybe you could just teach us all German? :)

[madster]

It is NOT infringing on copyright in the case of EDUCATION. Think Google books or the Gutenberg project...

That's termed "Fair Use," and does not qualifiy as a Copyright Infringement, so long as it is not done for profit.

To translate it is NOT the same as simply re-publishing it.

I'm thrilled, though, to see such ethical considerations, even though they are misplaced in this particular situation...

Especially since you are not talking the illustrations, merely the text, this is a MORE than appropriate example of "Fair Use" exemption.
~M

[Φ phil]

well well, and we're off again! give me some time though =) lots of time

ah, happy that I can do something:D thanks for pointing that out madster
ok, well Ill read through the book and start translating then. Ill upload a sample when I got the first chapter done, so you can tell me if its readable and useful . also, im not going to copy the img in it, youll need an original version of the text, Ill only say to which img im referring to. how you get the book is not my problem :D

and again, im not wasting my time translating :) I do it in school as mentioned. and im going to take the CAE (Cambridge advanced examinations ) in june, this will be perfect training :)

(btw. feel free to re-place your thanks again :D:D)

[madster]

I've had a copy of Der Nackte Mensch for years, and will enjoy finally being able to understand some of the explanations.

More power to the linguists! This will be SO appreciated.
As far as I'm concerned, you can skip everything up to page 17, where the first illustration of anatomy appears. It seems there was some sort of difference of thought about it, but I can't grasp enough to understand all the Drama, or the outcome...Signorelli had a way with poses, but Leonardo's time studying dead bodies definitely gave him an edge on the technicals...I'm so hoping there is an explanation for Albrecht Durer's body proportions breakdown, although I doubt it. It SO resembles the "8 head" bodys, except it's fat, and has 20 divisions...(Pg 23) Likewise, the joints and gestures on Pg. 28. The book references Hogarth and Loomis further on, so I'm assuming that these earlier works from previous centuries influenced them, as well...

Gee, once I know what they're really discussing, I might have to break down and seriously attempt to copy the illustrations...That was the intent behind the book in the first place...

~M
It's an ambitious project, but definitely one of great value.

[madster]

a simple, randomly picked sentence about the human head from "Gestalt des Menschen"
"Er widerstrebt nicht der menschlichen Würde, ihm als der Bekrönung (sic) menschlicher Leibesorganisation von sachlicher Seite Klärung angedeihen zu lassen, im Gegenteil, grade die Einmaligkeit seiner Individualität wirft die Frage nach allgemeinen baulichen Grundsätzen, körperhaft-räumlicher Ordnung und architektonischer Gefüge auf."
how would you translate this? By simplifying it to the essence of the sentence or by word-for-word translation?Having taken "French Literature Translation" in college, I found it worked best to 1. Literally translate it word for word, 2. Deliniate "standard" sentences (He walked to class) from the esoteric "poetic/cultural" sentences (He became freaked out by the orgy of art-hungry students), which you then have to break down and try to understand based on syntax, verbage, and slang.

It will STILL read somewhat weird, since the cultural differences may not carry across, but by having someone who can translate it enough to separate the "easy" from the hard," the "hive" here might be able to hammer out intelligible explanations for some of the more obtuse ramblings...

~M

[janni]

dont wanna turn this into an argument, but i realy wouldn't translate the entire thing and make it available here for copyright reasons. that would NEVER be a case of fair use, though probably nobody would even notice.

project gutenberg does only post work which is in public domain.

even a quotation of a couple pages might be ruled as copyright infringement when made public (posting on ca.org is making public), since it allows the public to obtain material at no cost that they would otherwise pay for. even if it's not available in english whatsoever.

any other oppinions on this? if this turns into a big thing here this should probably be cleared beforehand. maybe you should just ask Jason or one of the admins, if it's fine to post your translations?

madster, the part about Loomis, Hogarth and Bridgman is probably the worst of Bammes' whole book. Makes you think he didn't know what he was talking about afterall. He is basicaly describing them as wrong and un-scientific and bashes them for like two pages. He describes Hogarth's books as the only ones who had at least some ideas which were alright. Considering the historical context in which Bammes wrote his books there might be other, non artistic reasons for his harsh words about all american authors though...

just copy the illustrations. :)

[Φ phil]

thanks both madster and janni for sharing their thoughts.

about the copyrights:

there are a few things why I think it wont be against the copyright:

1) I have no intention what so ever in selling this translation

2) I will not include illustrations. My translation will only make sense if you already have the book. Of course, I cant control how pplz will get the book…

3) I will not be able to translate it "literally". The german expressions he uses are…wicked sometimes. All I can do is give you, more or less, an Idea of the text…

but I do take this issue serious! I will contact Jason Manly or other admins. Ill just wait till the workshop is over, I think Jason in particular is veeerry busy right now

cheers
bigfoot

[KrazyKasey]

hey bigfootrooper, this is a really great idea. It'd be like someone writing dialogue translated from a spanish soap opera that's on still on tv, and uploading the translation in a Ms-Word document or pdf. Some dude would be watching it on tv, nothing wrong with that. He'd be reading the translation maybe after printing it so as not to turn his head back and forth between the monitor and tv - nothing wrong with that.

Okay so the odds of someone doing that to Guadalupe-something-pantalones or whatever is really slim but still, it proves my point.

Though if you're still a little concerned... well you'd be making whatever changes to the text to make sure it's understandable like madster said, so why not make other changes?

Write it not as a word-for-word translation, but in a cool summarized up sorta' way - as if you've taken notes from the book. Paraphrase it in a fun "conversationally written" approach. If it's not word for word, nobody can complain.

Combine this with your idea of not including the illustrations, and it's all good.

[The Crazy Dude SRD]

I would be very graitious as well when you deliver this product... Be sure to give those plates some attention and build up your anatomical skillset. :)

It might even be portfolio worthy; you never know. Definately wouldn't hurt!

[crashMMVII]

...that would be epic.

<3

[Elwell]

May have already been done, Dover lists this, here's the listing on Amazon...

http://www.amazon.com/Artists-Guide-Human-Anatomy/dp/0486436411/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237940074&sr=8-1

Not even close. It's mostly student work, and not particularly good student work at that. If that was the only Bammes you ever saw, you'd wonder what the hell all the hubbub was about.

[Grandmassa Mr. Spect]

hey do you think you could get premision ? might be a dumb question but mabe you could email the publisher or something .... hope it works out

[madster]

You don't need permission to translate a foreign language into English for Educational purposes. This is no longer an issue.

But, those of you expecting to see the plates included here are probably in for a disappointment. Re-read the original post. We're talking translating the text that goes with all the plates...

Now, if those of us with the plates then post OUR studies from them, that, too is NOT copyright violation, as that IS the intended purpose of the book, it IS done for educational purposes, and is not being copied, nor published online for profit. There is NO "lost of value" of the plates from the original Bammes, nor infringement.

Copyright is a sinuous and complex beastie, but not too complex.

So, when do we start to get to enjoy this translation?

~M

[Φ phil]

So, when do we start to get to enjoy this translation?


hey guys,

Im still on chapter one :bashful: and Im going sloooow. I seem to have underestimated the amount of work that this project would need…completely.
I am now on holiday till the 5/24/09 …so I wont be working on it…and……
well lets face it, from my point of view right now, it is impossible to do the whole book. at least when Im alone…
nevertheless, I will post chapter one A.S.A.P!

another fear I have, is that im summarizing too much and the text wont make any sense in the end……ah, all my lill problems I have……school isnt getting easier as well……argh……I still hope Ill (at least) do chapter one. We'll see whats gonna happen then, ok?
ah, hate to disappoint you!°

cheers

[madster]

Don't bother summarizing. Just translate it as if you were reading it to someone in English.
The problem lies in the fact that machine translators cannot understand syntax and jargon, translating words too literally. Since you are able to read and converse, you understand syntax, and can understand the difference between "group" and "gang," whereas machine translators don't, and depending on the usage, those two words, while similar, can affect the understanding of a sentence, as just one example.

Don't make more work for yourself, just try to translate a paragraph at a time into understandable English. Nuances and summaries can then be done by the readers.

I was SO hoping you had at least a paragraph translated to post...or a page, even...Oh well. It IS a huge chunk to bite off.

~M

[German-s]

i love this idea and love you for doing it!! good luck and cheers!

[Φ phil]

hey guys

to make a long story short, I totally underestimated the amount of work! I should have tried to translate the book, before making trouble on ca.org

what do I learn? dont promise things you cant do!

well, I guess I just post the tinny bit I did so far. I realized that working in school is a bad Idea. And I dont got the time to do it at home, as after my holidays, I gotta start to work on my degree work and stuff!

again, Im really sorry for failing that hard, i hope you are not too mad at me

[Φ phil]

editorial note: sorry for all the mistakes……gosh, this took me so long…and its almost nothing:nohope:


1 Artists anatomy, once and today

1.1 The relationship between science and art

For two generations artists used to attack every scientific approach on art. The human ‚artistanatomy’ [editorial note:hes keeps using artistanatomy, I’ll go with anatomy from now on] was no exception. Well known persons like Leonardo da Vinci were seen as amazing artists despite their relation to science. And still, science is not quite accepted within the art community. The visible surface of objects in nature seems to be not as important as the inner core, the meaning. So, must the artist turn away from the apparent reality of nature? And where? Into a paradoxon? Isn’t the anatomy supposed to take a key role in dealing with the human figure? Or even: Isn’t anatomy supposed to creat rules about how to make and „judge“ art?

1.1.1 The ‚rights’ and ‚wrongs’ about the stereotyps on anatomy

These and similar questions are bugging a young artist. And the professionals dont share their knowledge as if they could burn their fingers. It is the autor of a book about anatomy that must try to understand why such a disaccord between art and science could, or even had to occur. And there must be a reason. Lies it in the fact that the goal of anatomy became the examination of all the details, missing out the „whole image“? Isnt that an obstacle when it comes to developping the „forces“ of an image? Whatever reason there might be against that, it is missing out the fact that examining all the detail is, in a greater scale, also examining what the characteristics of an object are.
The disaccord between art and science started a long way back in history. The reasons lie in the parallelism of science and art, subject and object, content and form, rationallity and emotions, the spiritual and physical. It is the lack of doing things „together“ and these conflicts must be examined by social scientists. It is not the subject of anatomy itselfe.

1.1.2 The special relationship between art and science

An end of this conflict is only possible if anatomy takes over both aspects, thus of art and science. We always have to think of anaomy as a borderland between art and science. It is there, where the anatomy lies, where both ways of „world-views“ come together. The goal of artistic knowledge is to understand the characteristics and this is how we learn to understand parts of the reality.

1.2 Goals and ways of anatomy in history

1.2.1 Its task in the Renaissance

This is not the place to capture all changes made in the Renaissance.
The medieval times only needed the basics of the human figure to realize their goals, set by religion. But the modern artists couldn’t use that base, and this is how anatomy became an important part of learning the figure. This was not an easy transformation, also because of the church. And the existing books on anatomy couldn’t satisfy the art community neither. What was needed was a precise description of the human body, the structure, muscles etc.
The artists themselfes had to take action. And the generation of Leonardos teacher already did so by taking appart corpses. These artists did a great deal of scientific work!
[pic.1]



1.2.2 Leonardo – Examiner of anatomy and teacher

Leonardos work is still as valuable as it was 400 years ago. He knew that words alone could not satisfy an artist as well as drawings alone could not satisfy one. Therefore he bescribed what he drew in the same precise manner. He succeded to simplify the muscles and make it of scientific use beside the artistic value. Today, it is still used in medicine.
Leonardo made it, he managed to unify art and science to become a master.
[pic 2-6]

1.2.3 The muscleman – doubtful program of anatomy

Basically the simplification of the anatomy into a formula (?)
[pic 7.]


the rest of chapter one is similar to the stuff above, he goes through art history with focus on anatomy……

[LosPescados]

So thats what the text means! Thank you Mr. Phil !

[madster]

Fantastic! Thank you SO much!!!

It may not seem like a lot to you, but it was better than the current issue of Time magazine to us!

Whenever you find the time, bit by bit, it will ALWAYS be appreciated.

Great job!
~M