Acrylic Matte Medium problem

[andymania]

I have been expirimenting with this technique that illustrator Barron Storrey told me about. It is a mixed medium technique that involves acrylic painting, sealing the painting with matte medium, working with colored pencil on top, sealing again with matte medium, working with paint/pencil, and sealing, etc. Now when I try to work on top of matte medium with colored pencil, it has a tendency to chip the surface all the way to the white of the board. I recently did a oil painting on gesso board (with liquin to make the paint dry overnight) then I applied matte medium and tried to work on top with colored pencils and the same chipping occurs. I tried sealing the painting with both Krylon Crystal Clear and Workable fixative and the surface still sucks. Dont know why they call it workable fixative when you really cant work on it since it gives you a crappy pencil stroke. Any idea on whats going on with this matte medium? Am I using it improperly?

[Elwell]

It's because you're putting the medium over an oil layer, and an oil layer that isn't 100% dry (despite the Liquin) at that.
Acrylic over Acrylic> very good. All the layers will lock together into one uniform film.
Oil over Acrylic> good enough. Especially if the acrylic layer has some tooth (which gesso and matte medium do), you'll get an acceptable mechanical bond.
Acrylic over oil> not so good. Acrylics bond well to most anything, except oily or greasy surfaces. As you've discovered.

[andymania]

I hear you Elwell, but even with acrylics and matte medium, I discovered that the more layers of matte medium i put, the more rubbery it gets and the chipping still occurs. I am totally stumped.

[andymania]

maybe im not giving the matte medium enough time to dry perhaps???

[Elwell]

The chipping is probably occurring because the oil layer isn't totally dry, just touch dry. The paint is no longer smeary, but still soft. The matte medium is binding to the dry, top layer, but the oil isn't anchored to the ground, so the pressure of the pencil is enough to chip it off.
This technique wasn't designed for use with an oil layer, certainly not anything beyond the thinnest of oil washes. As I said before, layering acrylics on top of oils is usually a BAD IDEA, because the drying and film characteristics of the paints are so different. Even if you get it to work in the short term, you've created a painting that's very prone to failure at some point in the future. Stop trying to get the paint to do something it doesn't want to do.

[Elwell]

maybe im not giving the matte medium enough time to dry perhaps???
If this is happening even when the underlayers are acrylic, then yes, maybe. And thick layers if medium aren't necessary, you're just using it to give the paint a little tooth.

[andymania]

no no....i understand the oil part. I am talking about when I tried it first with an acrylic underpainting followed by a layer of matte medium and colored pencil, then sealed again with the medium, then painting, then sealing and back and forth. It is as if the more of these matte medium layers I build up, the more rubbery it gets and hence, chipping. Is there a limit to how many times you can reseal a surface with matte medium before it gets unworkable? Maybe I am not giving enough time for the acrylics to dry before I jump into the pencils.

What is the dry time for acrylics?

[andymania]

should I dilute the matte medium with water?? and what is the best way to apply it? Just a normal soft brush?

[Elwell]

Crosspost :)

[andymania]

lol ;)

[Line]

Ok, I'm not nearly close enough to this level to have anything to add but I am interested in what is being said. This all does raise a question, I do understand the purpose of mixing various materials to create an image, the problem I have is how compatible are acrylics and colored pencils aesthetic wise? I don't recall having ever seen anything with the combination, does anyone have anything of the sort to show?

[andymania]

They are very compatible. Click on these two links to see examples:

http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19760216,00.html

http://www.drewstruzan.com

[Elwell]

Line, it was a very common technique, especially in the '70s and '80s. Bob Peak, Richard Amsel, Mark English, C.F. Payne, and many others have used variations of it.

[Equality72521]

this topic is interesting because im trying the same thing, acrylic and matte medium, along with airbrush (im trying the drew technique) And ive had some similar problems. It seems when I use matte medium (golden brand) and layer it with pencils, the medium makes it hard for the colored pencil to stick to the board, i have to really press down with the pencils to make them stick. Is it easier to use Fluid Matte medium instead of regular matte medium?

[Ilaekae]

I. You have to use the LIQUID matte medium, not anything that's stiff like from a tube.

2. The medium is just to seal the layers, not bury them for future historians to find intact--thin the matte medium with a bit of water. You don't need much in the beginning stages of the work.

3. The pencils are failing for two reasons; the medium has been applied too thickly and is piling up into a rubbery surface. Acrylic does NOT--NOT--dry to a hard surface. You're trying to write on birthday cake icing or a gummi bear with a nail. AND, the pencils have to be soft--either up in the 4B-6B graphite range or very soft pastel-like pencils. Crayons would be great, BUT don't do it. Acrylic won't stick to wax. A hard pencil or pastel is the same as drawing with a nail. It's cutting the acrylic instead of marking it.

4. DO NOT use a perfectly smooth surface to start your piece on. Use cold-pressed or watercolor board for a toothier surface rather than hot-pressed illustration board. If you're gessoing a panel, don't make it baby smooth to the touch. You need tooth to grab the pencil and the acrylic layers. Otherwise, you're trying to draw on glass.

5 NEVER--FUCKING NEVER--use spray fixative UNDER acrylic. Anyone who tells you it's okay or won't cause problems is full of shit. Period. The only way it can be used safely is in a concentration so low that it won't fix anything...

There is also a high probability of silicon infection with most spray fixes and some furniture sprays that you might use to pretty up your drawing table or desk. If this crap gets on any artwork that will be worked on with an aqueous medium, it will spot or refuse to adhere in little patches no matter what you do.

[Noah Bradley]

NEVER--FUCKING NEVER--use spray fixative UNDER acrylic. Anyone who tells you it's okay or won't cause problems is full of shit. Period.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this what Dan shows in his painting dvd? He seals his finished drawing with fixative and then does a thin acrylic underpainting.

[Aphotic Phoenix]

Really interesting thread here guys. Thanks for bringing it up.

I've used colored pencils on gouache before, which is relatively easy since gouache is matte in the first place. Is there any specific advantage to using acrylics in terms of the mixed media aspect?

[Ilaekae]

He may show it, he may do it, but meaning no offense to Dan, I learned the hard way NEVER to use fixative under acrylics. The primary reason was the unsureness of the spray pattern--it was hard to be consistent and often drop-spotted. I've also had over 10 pieces ruined half way through because the spray on the first level sooner or later caused bubbling pop-ups to appear where the fix formed either a spot or left a silicon spot.

My experience with synthetics and acrylics goes back to the very early sixties when the art school I attended served as a test lab of sorts for the initial offering of both Liquitex and NewMasters (a competitive vinyl version that was more like modern craft paints or animator's cell paints). Before that, I played seriously with TriTec (a wax and oil combination) and Bocour (the first attempt at a synthetic oil).

It wasn't just a choice for us the way it is today. There was no real evidence that this stuff would actually work, and we were ordered to "beat the shit out of it." If there was a problem, we found it.

As for people who claim to successfully have used it over fixative, on glass, on stainless steel, and over oils with no problem--all power to you, and I wish you continued success, but I WILL NOT EVER back down from the evidence I saw with my own experiments, which were duplicated, btw, by at least 150 others to some degree.

You want to do it, feel free to ignore me or disagree. You have that right, and I wish you good outcomes. BUT--I WON'T do it.

[Elwell]

I've used colored pencils on gouache before, which is relatively easy since gouache is matte in the first place. Is there any specific advantage to using acrylics in terms of the mixed media aspect?
Because acrylics won't redissolve, you can keep layering paint/pencil/paint/pencil etc.

[Aphotic Phoenix]

Because acrylics won't redissolve, you can keep layering paint/pencil/paint/pencil etc.

Well that much I figured since gouache is extremely easy to revive into a liquid state. (I've had fun painting up gouache on printing plates, letting it dry, and then sending through a printing press with damp paper). I guess I'm more curious on specific effects desired since I've used waxy pencils under washes to create different looks, etc.

Admittedly however, I've had very little experience with acrylic paint, so it might just go over my head anyway. XD

[DSillustration]

this topic is interesting because im trying the same thing, acrylic and matte medium, along with airbrush (im trying the drew technique) And ive had some similar problems. It seems when I use matte medium (golden brand) and layer it with pencils, the medium makes it hard for the colored pencil to stick to the board, i have to really press down with the pencils to make them stick. Is it easier to use Fluid Matte medium instead of regular matte medium?

Mix a little bit of 'modeling paste' into your matte medium.
It will add a subtle tooth that helps the pencil grip to it.
Be sure not to add too much, or the mixture will not be totally transparent.

[Line]

Wow! I never realised what was going on in those images. You can see the different texure of a colored pencil but I thought it was either ALL colored pencil or that the paint was applied in a way that made the texture look like it.

Teach us more guys!

[DSillustration]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this what Dan shows in his painting dvd? He seals his finished drawing with fixative and then does a thin acrylic underpainting.

I do.
However...
I am using 'workable fixative' and my acrylics are just a thin wash.

I have only run into a problem once, ever, and I was using 'Crystal Clear', as well as a different brand of acrylic than usual, and I had REALLY glopped on the paint.
When I started to paint in oils, it seemed to be tearing up the acrylic into a gooey mess.
I don't know if this was the result of poor quality acrylics, or too much fixative, or a combination of both.
My suspicion is that a thick coat of Crystal Clear is so non-permeable that the acrylics did not bind to the surface properly.

Mixed media is a tricky game.
There are so many ingredients tossed into the mix, that it takes just a single incompatibility to mess it all up.
That could come from improper priming, poor quality paints, old paint, waxy pencils, not enough drying time, or even too much humidity in the air!
Sometimes things just don't jive.

I don't doubt that Ilaekae had problems with fixative.
But it seems unlikely that we used the same combination of materials.
My mentor has used the same method I do for over 35 years now, and I have yet to see any adverse affects.
I stand by the fidelity of my method 100%.
Though, you should experiment a bit (make a few mistakes) and come up with a method that works for you.

[Noah Bradley]

Thanks for the opinions, Ilaekae & Dan Dos Santos. Useful information. :)

[andymania]

Ilaekae,

Yes the rubbery feel is precisely what I get when i use prismacolors on top of the matte medium. Then again, I will give it more time to dry rather than just 5-7 minutes. I will have to try the modelling paste................

[andymania]

WHoa, hold up here. Acrylic WON'T hold on to wax colored pencils? I wonder how Barron did it then going back and forth between acrylic and colored pencil........ plus Ilaekae, prismacolors are rather soft and buttery. Im sure the problem is is that I am adding the layers much too thick and not letting them dry thoroughly,

[Grendel Grack]

a side note on the drying time of acrylics - it takes much longer than 5-7 minutes to dry properly. Especially if you are using the medium at normal consistency (that is, not thinned with water). You will definitely get a rubbery feel if you aren't patient. Try waiting at least 30 - 45 min between sealing coats. Although acrylics dry quickly, they still need some time to form a permanent bond to the substrate.

[Ilaekae]

andymania, acrylics won't stick to wax, but if you're using wax pencils sparingly--as in, you're not laying down a solid opaque layer of color with the pencil--there should be enough original surface space showing through to allow the acrylic to adhere properly. The copolymer will bridge the wax and anchor solidly with no problem. The problem is always with what percentage of the original surface the acrylic is being applied to is allowing the acrylic to form a bond with that surface. Crayolas (and similar) would cause a major problem, for example, because they form such a solid wax surface of such a high saturation that they cause problems. Pencils made with traditionally "harder" waxes really wouldn't cause a problem unless, as I said before, you really whacked it down solidly and hyper thick on the surface. The rougher the surface is in texture, the less of a problem you have using any materials.

Grendel', you definitely need more than five minutes for the copolymer bond to form properly. I still think that your problem is being caused by too thick an application of acrylic. You HAVE to remember that acrylics DO NOT ever become "non-rubbery." They are naturally "soft" feeling even when totally dry. This means that if the acrylic layer is thick, you will be attempting to draw on a mushy surface. You will NEVER get the solid dry layer that you get with thinned oils or gouache because acrylics are a soft plastic. Use a hard pointed utensil on top of that surface and you will always be digging in. It's like trying to draw on the blanket on your bed with an HB pencil--can't be done.

Just for the record, I've successfully completed pieces with litho crayon and those wax China markers (pull string, peel paper) used for the base drawing which were then Liquitexed, but it was always on a rough surface and the drawing was very sketchy (though detailed) and exposed a tremendous amount of surface to the acrylics. It's a matter of common sense.

The closer to a solid sheet of glass or wax/oil your original surface/surface with pencil or crayon becomes, the more likely you will suffer a failure if you attempt using acrylics over it. Dan's Crystal Clear spray was at fault on his piece because it formed a nearly solid "glassy" layer at the molecular level for the acrylic to bond to...which just won't happen.

[andymania]

Ahhhhh....Ilaekae I see now thank you very much. So the acrylics will be to some extent rubbery because acrylic is a plastic. I totally understand now.

Do you think I might be able to work with the colored pencils on top of oils after they have dried ? (with cobalt drier added for speedy drying)

[Ilaekae]

I'm guessing a thin wash or oil+turp would be rough enough when it's dry to do that with. Thicker apps of paint might be a problem though, because the surface would be a bit smooth to grab the pencil, and there's a tendency for oils to pile a bit like thick acrylic that would make it difficult to draw on (like drawing on that corrugated stuff they use for box filler)... Just don't let things get too glossy or smooth--you need surface tooth for pencils to work.

[Grendel Grack]

Colored pencils work beautifully on top of watercolor and gouache. You can even paint back over the colored pencil layer to some extent - as long as you haven't applied the colored pencil too thick or burnished it (the watercolor will just bead up in this case). They will create a natural tooth on paper, even if you use hot pressed. The resulting surface is fabulous for pencil.

[Jason Ross]

How are you doing Andy. I believe that we've talked here about this before. I still have yet to find a fixative that you can layer over top of prismacolor colored pencils so that you may lay a "new" layer of colored pencils and/or acrylics on it. I did find a fixative that isn't too bad under acrylics (over top of pencils) called "Lascaux" but the real secret is to not use fixative at all. I use either acrylics thinned with water or matte medium itself applied with airbrush over my pencils. That's enough to fix the pencils. I also find that the colored pencils "stick" to the board a lot better with this method. But the only medium that I would place over top of the colored pencil layer is oils. Wax colored pencils repels water way too much to trust a water based medium to stay on top.

[Ilaekae]

The application of an acrylic mist with an air brush is an excellent suggestion, if you have access to one.

[andymania]

Hey Jason,

Ahh yes that is a novel idea: to spray it on with an airbrush.