lineart and weening off of it.... esp in concept art

[riceface]

Ive noticed that lineart in concept art is near non existent... as an artist, is the natural progression of an artist is to ween off of the crutch that is lineart?

are there even any concept artist that do lineart plus color of course.. accept for maybe joe mad in america?http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/892/892449/joe-madureira-on-thqs-darksiders-20080721021750007-000.jpg


I think in korea or asia in general its more acceptable.. like hyung tae kim.. like this one: http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/magnacarta/art-03.jpg

is it possible to make it as a concept artist with lineart unless ur a comic artist super star?

in america at least the concept art level is very high... at least the ones ive seen.. and i saw some vids where they just block in all the shapes with siliouettes and start painting very fast... without the need for any lineart. is this how good a concept artist have to be to get a job as a concept artist??

would a company laugh their ass off looking at drawings that rely heavily on the black lineart... i personally would love to stick to lineart.. but if thats not what their looking for then im wasting my time.


i hope this thread makes sense..

[rpace]

The point of much of the full colour concept art is to show what the game will look (feel) like. Since most of the modern games aren't rendered in 2D, line art -- coloured or not -- doesn't serve. Flash and other 2D games require line art concept work, when they actually require it.

There's a great deal of work in the concept process that is line art; initial sketches, orthos, storyboards. This stuff isn't as sexy as the full colour, often painterly work. If you're okay not doing the colour concept work there's still a large part of the process you can engage in.

Put together a kick-ass portfolio of line art conceptual work and you'll get hired to do line-based work, but you won't get to do the sexy colour stuff.

~Richard

[Dusty]

I can't answer your question specifically, because I am not a concept artist. But I still felt the need to respond to something you said:

i personally would love to stick to lineart.. but if thats not what their looking for then im wasting my time.

I don't think any art is a waste of time. I think the key is to just always be open to where your art will take you. For example, when I was a teenager, I wanted to draw comic books....desperately. One thing led to another and I found out I had an even stronger desire to do sculpting and make-up effects for movies. Between those two, I ended up going to art school focused on one thing or another, but in the end I became a video game artist.

The point is, I didn't get bound by one specific type of artistic industry (in your case, concept art), but I still ended up in an artistic field. My interest in comic books and sculpting has made me a well-rounded artist (in my opinion of course), so I don't consider any of my past choices to be a "waste of time".

It's one thing to be dedicated to a specific field, but don't change what you enjoy just to achieve it. Just do your thing, try other things as you become interested, and you might be surprised where you end up. In fact, now I couldn't imagine doing comic book art. It's still awesome and I love comic art, but I found I personally do not enjoy creating sequential art. Times change.

-D

[mickeymao]

People understandably have a lot of respect for concept artists who are great painters. However, my experience working in-house for game companies is that line art is just as good, perhaps even better, because it's usually faster and clearer what you're trying to convey. Fast iterations and variations of a basic concept are what you need to be able to do. If you can do that in "paint", that's A+ awesome (and more likely to make it into print in some gaming mag) but it is not necessary. The issue is the quality of the design, and the speed and clarity with which it is conveyed.

[Aphotic Phoenix]

I've always liked Hyung Tae Kim's stuff despite some of the weird issues with anatomy that goes on in his work. The line work is obviously there, but there is variation in line thickness which helps prevent it from being over-powering and completely flattening the work...which is how it should be.

As digital becomes a more prominent working method, it becomes easier to hide linework. If you look at the concept art for Fallout 3 it has a really sketchy style, much of which I think was done traditionally. (At least I assume that's why Adam still had a big box of prismacolor markers XD)

[Bowlin]

I believe in Richard Shcmid's book he argues that almost any painting first starts with lines to some degree. It sounds like the vid's your talking about is what Loomis would call, "The Soft Approach", where you start with tone and work your way to edges which represent lines. I think you'd have to have reference material all worked out beforehand for this approach.

The point is, it sounds like your not intrested and confused by "tone". Some beginners refer to as "shading". To help understand it better, read Loomis' section on Tone. Most artist don't ween off of line art and instead just start working with some line art and then work in the tones. Look at most tutorials and they'll show the progression of thumbnails and roughs to tight drawings as starting off with line art usually in each step (maybe not thumbnails so much for most).

But if you think that's hard, wait till you get to color.

[HunterKiller_]

Comparing lineart to blocking in silhouettes is comparing apples to bananas - They serve completely different purposes.

[~Faust~]

Comparing lineart to blocking in silhouettes is comparing apples to bananas - They serve completely different purposes.

I think apples and bananas serve the same purpose.

On line art, most of the industrial-designs I saw are based on lines and ID is AFAIK an integral part of the proces. Hell, did you even look at the concept-threads in the FF-section? I mean the one from Turok and such, not the portfolio, high-polished stuff. Lot's of line-scetches in there.

On the other hand, if you talk about polishing to illustration-quality for promotion and stuff, you're talking about illustration and not concept-art imo.

[Max Challie]

riceface, thank you for introducing me to Hyung Tae Kim (http://hyung-taekim.org/gallery/index.php). Inspiring stuff!

[riceface]

so your saying i dont have to ween off of my lineart....

the thing is... the best lineart arts + colored at best.. just looks likea high end comic book art...

but when u do that speed painting thing that alot of concept artist seem to know how to do.. u get sweeping landscapes, scale.. composition.. looks like a freakin painting. esp from far away. it will probably be really impressive to companies.. another thing is, with this technique.. people finish the drawing pretty dam fast...

but im pretty sure people who can do this.. are just as good as doing lineart work.. when i say lineart i mean fully colored but with the black lines...

am i sorta limited in my arsenal of art.. to prospective employers.

[sfa]

Plenty of concept artists still retain line in their works. Most of the folks who teach at Concept Design Academy lean towards keeping it. Here are a few samples:

Carlo Arellano
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv37/sabesami/Charon_02a.jpg

Darren Quach
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv37/sabesami/SU08_VechMech_Wk03_Demo01b.jpg

Andy Chung:
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv37/sabesami/OneManSpaceshipinteriorcopy.jpg

Kevin Chen
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv37/sabesami/LF_PrincessRoughConcepts_02text.jpg

Of course, let's not forget the master:

Syd Mead:
http://gadgets.boingboing.net/gimages/sulaco.jpg
http://www.treehugger.com/syd%20mead.jpg
http://www.pasadena.edu/air/images/mead-art.jpg
http://consultaglobal.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/syd-mead-3.jpg
http://www.marshallastor.com/Syd%20Mead%20-%20Emergency%2020.jpg

I don't think relying on line art is a crutch at all. It's merely another variation of the two main ways of drawing: like a draftsman (line) or a painter (mass). People tend to gravitate towards one direction or another, and the best learn how to do both.

[HunterKiller_]

the thing is... the best lineart arts + colored at best.. just looks likea high end comic book art...

but when u do that speed painting thing that alot of concept artist seem to know how to do.. u get sweeping landscapes, scale.. composition.. looks like a freakin painting. esp from far away. it will probably be really impressive to companies.. another thing is, with this technique.. people finish the drawing pretty dam fast...


Why the hell do you put so much effort into comparing different types of art?

First it was western vs. eastern art, then it was 2D vs. 3D and now lineart vs. non-lineart. What's next? Pencils vs. erasers??

You need to get one point nailed in your head.
Art is subjective. You may think one thing is greatest thing in the world, the next guy might hate it.
There's no such thing as the 'best medium' or 'best type of art'.

Stop wasting your energy with these pointless comparisons and do what you want to do.

[Aphotic Phoenix]

as an artist, is the natural progression of an artist is to ween off of the crutch that is lineart?

I'm kind of curious as to why you think line art would be considered a "crutch" in the first place. There are certainly amateur artists who focus so much describing form via contour that they neglect form via value...thus their line art looks full of potential until they attempt to paint it. I have the opposite problem in that I understand form via value much more easily. If you're strong in understanding both however they co-exist just fine.

It sounds like the vid's your talking about is what Loomis would call, "The Soft Approach", where you start with tone and work your way to edges which represent lines. I think you'd have to have reference material all worked out beforehand for this approach.

In traditional mediums, yes it would be much easier to go with the "soft approach" if good references are available. (All art is easier with good reference available) In digital painting however you can erase, paint lighter tones over darker tones, etc which means less strict reliance on reference for the same approach.

[Grief]

ween   /win/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ween]
–verb (used with object), verb (used without object) Archaic.
1. to think; suppose.
2. to expect, hope, or intend.
3. Gene & Dean Ween, kicking out the fuckin' jams.

wane   /weɪn/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [weyn]
verb, waned, wan⋅ing, noun
–verb (used without object)
1. to decrease in strength, intensity,
2. to decline in power, importance, prosperity,
3. to draw to a close; approach an end.
4. (of the moon) to decrease periodically in the extent of its illuminated portion after the full moon.
5. the word riceface keeps meaning to say.

[Shantih]

wean   /win/ –verb (used with object)
1. to accustom (a child or young animal) to food other than its mother's milk; cause to lose the need to suckle or turn to the mother for food.
2. to withdraw (a person, the affections, one's dependency, etc.) from some object, habit, form of enjoyment, or the like: The need to reduce had weaned us from rich desserts.
3. The actual word I assume riceface was looking for and Grief forgot.

[Grief]

its kind of you to assume my faulty memory instead of my ignorance.

[~Faust~]

Damn Yoz Englisgh! All those words sound the same! right wright Right ride... fuck, no wonder you're always misunderstood...

[Farvus]

Ive noticed that lineart in concept art is near non existent

Check out these guys.
http://www.autodestruct.com/concept.htm
http://www.martiniere.com/

I don't get where is the problem. Painterly speepdpaintings are better for showing mood, feel of the game or movie. Line drawings are better for accuracy and speed so you can use it for designing things. You're not married to a certain style or technique. You can use both according to the need. This is where it's good to know the foundations. Good artist can then take anything that leaves mark and draw/paint amazing stuff with it.

[riceface]

Check out these guys.
http://www.autodestruct.com/concept.htm
http://www.martiniere.com/

I don't get where is the problem. Painterly speepdpaintings are better for showing mood, feel of the game or movie. Line drawings are better for accuracy and speed so you can use it for designing things. You're not married to a certain style or technique. You can use both according to the need. This is where it's good to know the foundations. Good artist can then take anything that leaves mark and draw/paint amazing stuff with it.

wow thanks alot that made alot of sense to me... the point of this thread for me was not comparing artwork really.. or whats better.. i just wanted to know what was better to get a FREAKIN JOB! IM BROKE! its nto about what i want, its about what people willing to give me money want..

i guess all these super pros on youtube doing speed paintings so easily without any lineart made me see what i was up againts.. and if i had to at least live up to that level to even get a job,.. considering they have jobs doing concept art.. and lets face it.. alot of concept art (not all) do look the same.. that same quick paintery look. with full backgrounds and stuff. so if my work looks nothing like those guys.. of course im going to be curious about the level im suppose to be at to get work.

monster artist like this guy:
http://fc46.deviantart.com/fs33/f/2008/308/3/4/The_Farmbot_by_AndreeWallin.jpg

[riceface]

Why the hell do you put so much effort into comparing different types of art?

First it was western vs. eastern art, then it was 2D vs. 3D and now lineart vs. non-lineart. What's next? Pencils vs. erasers??

You need to get one point nailed in your head.
Art is subjective. You may think one thing is greatest thing in the world, the next guy might hate it.
There's no such thing as the 'best medium' or 'best type of art'.

Stop wasting your energy with these pointless comparisons and do what you want to do.

it feels a bit discouraging when ur sitting there trying to finalize the lineart of a drawing.. when ur competition drew an entire drawing + background in the same amount of time. is all

art isn't subjective when it comes to getting employeed. thats the whole point for me.. its what they want buddy.

[DavePalumbo]

it feels a bit discouraging when ur sitting there trying to finalize the lineart of a drawing.. when ur competition drew an entire drawing + background in the same amount of time. is all

it's possible that you're getting ahead of yourself. if you keep working, you'll get there, you can't make it happen in a day

[HunterKiller_]

art isn't subjective when it comes to getting employeed. thats the whole point for me.. its what they want buddy.

Do you know any working artists?
Working an art job isn't a candy coated fantasy. It's a job, it has to be done to pay the bills.

Most working artists are wishing they could spend more time making their own art and here you are doing the exact opposite.

Just be good at what you do, because imitation is only a dim reflection.

[Line]

Interesting topic and I think the fact that Riceface is thinking in terms of 'what will get me a job' is also quite interesting.

I am no super pro or anything, I do mostly black and white illustrations for RPGs so far, because I haven't 'advertised' my color work, and I haven't done that yet, because I don't feel confident about it yet. But, I still get work, regardless if the work I do is just line art, tone drawings that retain the outline or tone drawings that have no outline (in the end result).

The way I see it is that all these are 'factors'. Line, Tone, Mass, Color, Composition (and maybe you should be worried about that more than you think). What partly gives an image appeal is the judgement of how you will balance each excisting factor that makes up an image.

To give you an example that won't be far away from line art look at this http://frankfrazetta.org/viewimage.php?loc=frank_frazetta_bw_womanwithspear .jpg it's a lineart image with little tone. But, and this is a big BUT, the beauty and aesthetic of the image comes from the artist's judgement on where to use line, thicker line, shadow and halftone and HOW! Try copying this image, then try making something similar or remake it but use different judgement, make more halftone, or less, or use cross hatches or use hatches in a different direction. This is all just line mind you. Look at the results, you will realise that there is more to line than it being a crutch.

As for the rest, the way painters and digital painters work, go take some lessons on drawing from life, draw a few casts with charcoal, not too finished, just basic masses and you'll understand the thought process.

Don't let the problem of what style or way will get you work get in the way of your artistic development, because in the end all the client or employer will care about is the end result. But, use the high standard as a goal, an inspiration and a driving force to keep evolving. If you are looking for a safety measure to get work in this field (the way I see it so far) there isn't, it's better to be a laywer.

Take it step by step and the things you will want to retain and the way you use them will eventually result in your 'style' and if is has more line retained in to it, so be it. :)

[Sorknes]

"the crutch that is lineart"

You keep amazing me by putting some really weird statements in all your questions post that seems to have been grabbed out from thin air. O.o

There's a difference between lineart and initial sketch.....

[carlo arellano]

Drawing is not a crutch and I would hire a guy like this before anyone painting moody and loose images.

http://www.dayofthejedi.com/articles/2008/09/images/prequelconcept/sith1_lg.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3452/3192752755_c107878ae3_o.jpg

[le capitan]

Yeh Ian Mccaig is great.

The artwork in the original post is more for illustration purposes and comics. That piece by Joe Mad. is intended to be inked so he draws it with that in mind.

Speed is very important when it comes to concept artwork. You're creating ideas not finished paintings. Most concept artwork is done with very tight deadlines where you're expected to have 2 or 3 finished character concepts in a day.

Hope this helps,

[Farvus]

Wow. Thanks for posting these IanMcCaig images. Gotta finally buy his artbook.

I visited your blog some time ago and I really got inspired by all the sci-fi concepts.

[Virg]

you should realise that some people able to do speedpaint without lineart are also freakin pissed about the fact that they cant do clean lineart well without a lot of struggle, and they probably work their ass off to learn how to improve their linework.

[gogidolim]

I can draw machine-precise lines. AND I simply can't paint from scratch. I need to draw a solid pencil drawing to scan.

The problem is that I SEE things as outlines. It's really difficult to see objects as planes and forms. I guess it's an Asian thing. Virtually all the traditional Asian paintings are heavily based on calligraphic line drawings.

[jdalton]

art isn't subjective when it comes to getting employeed.
Oh it's completely subjective. It's just different people doing the judging. No two art directors (or whoever hires the artists in a given industry) will have exactly the same opinion of an artist or a style. They are trained (hopefully) to recognize skill and competence and professionalism, but they still have their own preferences for particular styles or approaches- sometimes based on the expectations of their higher-ups, sometimes not.

[Jie Kageshinzo]

Why not do both? Work towards getting a lineart that is also colored and painterly. You used HTK as an example of lineart being "acceptable" when in fact, it is a combination of both lineart and color and designs to create one whole awesome package. When I look at them I don't think, "Oooh cool, painted lineart work". I think "Holy shit that looks awesome" and then go into why it works, not how it was made.

[hendo45]

I can draw machine-precise lines. AND I simply can't paint from scratch. I need to draw a solid pencil drawing to scan.

The problem is that I SEE things as outlines. It's really difficult to see objects as planes and forms. I guess it's an Asian thing. Virtually all the traditional Asian paintings are heavily based on calligraphic line drawings.


but that doesnt mean that you have to be asian to draw planes and forms of humans and objects right? because i've been trying to do it for so long and its killing me.