Hey everyone - a couple of questions (graphic novel, copyright, payment)

[Kilowatt]

Hey hey, I have a couple of questions, it'd be great to hear some advice or direction.

I've recently been asked to illustrate a graphic novel (by the writer).

At the moment-
-He is still in the writing process, and unsure how lengthy (how many pages) the finished product will be. We'd both like to work as we go - but I don't want this to be a never-ending story.
-I have no experience with comics nor graphic novels, so this is a bit of a learning process, but he likes my art and has accepted this. & is willing to pay.
-I don't know a whole lot about copyrights on shared material, he says we will copyright in both our names, and have equal rights to the work. & "The paycheck would come from royalties if we get it published, which would be based on however the publisher does it. IF we get published, that is. If not, I'm going to try and publish the thing myself, something that I do not expect you to put any money towards."

After all this, would we then split the profit... or what?

But more present time, I'm wondering how to go about figuring out payment (for my drawings). Do I charge by the hour, by the page, etc.? I'm unsure how much that would be - he hasn't thrown any numbers out but is certain he wants me on board, and is willing to work something out. Do I not charge at all if it'll be a shared copyright? I see this as a commission (as there is no definite plans of publishing), but is it otherwise?

Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry about sounding pretty clueless, I'm new to this - but I'm interested. I could use some help. I assume these things would be protected under a contract, which I've been researching here & on the net.

Thanks for your time!

[Viridis]

Here's how I understand things (I haven't done any paid comic work myself, so others can feel free to correct me):

From what I understand, most comic art is paid per page. The rate varies depending on what you're doing--whether it's just pencils or if it's inks or even up to color. At least one rate I've heard is that you should be getting $25-50 per page (again, depending on detail/work).

The way copyright should work is that you automatically get rights to the art, he has rights to the story/characters. It would be different if you were working for a company, where they typically get rights to the art through work-for-hire. How you divide things after publishing is something you'll have to decide and write out in a contract.

Definitely charge. You should be getting paid for your work after all. I think if this is a project of undetermined length, you should agree to get paid at intervals, ie, every X pages or every chapter, depending on the length of the chapters. Make absolutely SURE you are going to get paid whether or not it gets published. Never ever ever agree to just get paid out of royalties-- you won't get any money that way. They're nice, but you want a flat fee up front first.

Basically, make sure you don't get ripped off, because that's disappointingly common in these kind of projects.

[rpace]

Few things -- if this is both your friend's as well as your first foray into sequential art, do not expect any positive results of this exercise. Star off with much shorter stories -- 4-10 pages at most. Both of you have to learn how to use the medium well before you can hope to do it professionally.

Honestly, all the business worries you're expressing are too much like being anxious about how you're going to spend your lottery winnings before you even buy the ticket.

To start you guys should try to learn more about making comics -- reading Eisner's Comics and Sequential Art, McCloud's Understanding Comics and Making Comics, and Abel & Hodden's Drawing Words & Writing Pictures would give you a starting point on how to really craft a comics script and draw comics pages. That's just the starting point.

Comics aren't as easy as drawing out someone's story. Speaking as someone who actually gets paid to write and draw comics, it's a little condescending for you and your pal to think you can just up and do it at a professional level. You might be a pair of geniuses, but, without seeing any of your work I think it's a safe assumption that you're not and there's a learning curve to take into account.

Best of luck,

~Richard

[nonie]

Yeah. As one who's working on a graphic novel right now, absolutely DO NOT do one for your first comic. Short comics, stick to short comics. I wouldn't even do a regular 24-page for the first run, not saying not to be ambitious because I sure as hell was when I just started out, but there's a WHOLE lot of stuff in sequential art you just don't learn from other things, unless maybe you've directed a movie before. Get everything Scott McCloud has ever written on making comics (starting with Making Comics) and Hans Bacher's Dream Worlds for how to set up a short and composition.

Have you looked at the Zuda competition? Try to do something on that level (8 half-pages I think it is). Zuda has prize money and winners get a contract for longer projects. Great way to practice and have a higher chance of earning money for it than you do with the old "we'll pay you when it gets published and sells a million copies" scam. I mean, a graphic novel is a whole hell of a lot of work to do before ever seeing a penny.

[Baron Impossible]

I know little about graphic novel publishing specifically but I do know a fair bit about publishing as relates to standard fiction and I can virtually guarantee there'll be no royalties, no profit and no published end product. That's not to say don't do it but if you're doing it for money rather than a fun project then agree on a price per page up-front and get it written up in a contract. That price is up to you of course, although I suspect if you ask for anything beyond a token amount you won't get it.

[Kilowatt]

Hey everyone, thanks for your advice.

I haven't agreed to anything, and there won't be any art swapping without a contract & money upfront.

About the length etc. - that was one of my first questions, I don't want to commit to something that's a 1,000 pages long. When you're at a job, do you personally know ahead of time the length? Or is it more of a say, 6 month contract, and you know you're getting paid salary or by the page, etc.? Say, if you were working for an actual publisher.

I guess I'm wondering if it'd be a problem to be hesitant if you were actually getting paid per page, etc. Other than the fact that there's uncertainty if this'll take up the next 3 years of my life.

Anyway, still thinking about it. I have read 'Understanding Comics: The Invisible Art by Scott Mccloud' in a graphic design course, I'll check out your other suggestions.

Like I said, no experience in the comic world. I can draw, but I don't draw comics, I've never thought about some of these things. With a drawing, it ends at that drawing, or that series of work. But it's not a sequential thing. Thanks for the suggestion on starting with something smaller to get a feel for it, and understand how it works a bit better. Going to be looking into those before this stuff happens.

Thanks again.

[nonie]

(first off I think I meant Understanding Comics not Making Comics but glad you've read it, now read his others :P)

I wouldn't take a job without knowing the length. One thing is that even with a regular-length comic, at 24 page, you're likely to improve while you're working on it, and your energy level for the project will change as you go on. It's pretty common to do the pages in three chunks out of order such as end, beginning, middle. This means you're doing the important parts while your energy and enthusiasm is still high and there's not going to be a visible change in skill or style as you read the book. People pay a little less attention to the middle because by then they want to hurry up and see what happens. Not saying to slack on them but it's best to do showcase pages when you're excited about the job.

If your project is so long you are going to hate drawing it. I'm working on a 90 page one and I could really use a change of pace...

[Kilowatt]

Hey nonie, thanks again for your advice. This project is only in the discussion stages - it's not a done deal. I just thought I'd ask for some advice here ahead of time, particularly regarding compensation and things on that level - only so that I don't commit to something without a very set contract in the beginning. Heck, it may even turn him off from wanting to hire me at all. My apologies if I've offended you, rpace, or anyone else.

I am not planning to do anything without more information... so thanks again for all the help! I'll look into some more reading. A 90 page piece seems very intimidating... hence why I asked some of this stuf. Thanks for putting it into perspective!