Thunderdome 7 RULES discussion

[THUNDERDOME_ADMIN]

please keep the thread clean and free of written clutter. answers will be provided.

[geoffd]

will we know who the judges are, and will each match be judged by the same person(s). also prizes... (if any) how will they be decided who gets what? and will each match get the same prize?

[JoshuaTheJames]

Seems like cool topics..but it would be sad to see this end up as an illustration contest. I hope people don't spit out there designs and spend most of the time noodling the final paint...!



-Joshua

[tyboogie]

agrees with joshua

[DragonGX]

Are we going in brackets? Or is it jsut the one match? Just curious if the winners will face other winners or if it is just a one match thing.

[RONIN]

I offered to my opponent that we keep the mediums open. I like to incorporate different things ... like start w/charcoal add an oil/acrylic rub for color and then mix it all up in Photoshop at the end.

It's a challenge so you should be sticking to your comfort level. BUT, pulling out all the cool tricks and extras you've picked up along the way. How you get to the destinantion shouldn't matter.

[Sammy]

Seems like cool topics..but it would be sad to see this end up as an illustration contest. I hope people don't spit out there designs and spend most of the time noodling the final paint...!

I couldn't agree more, and I hope that it is encouraged that peoples' winning work is judged on the design. I never like seeing a crap design where 20 hours were spent on a reflection in a button. :bash:

[mcotie]

Well you guys have a point, but from all of the concept art that I've seen, nothing looks nicer than a concept piece that was done with such beauty and technique that it could stand as a work of art on its own. Plus , if you can crank out a concept piece that can give out more info the better. When doing a concept for a modeler, per example, why not paint in some nice lighting to set the mood for the environment lighting guys, and so on. And if your complaint is that something so well rendered takes too long to produce, then my solution to you is to paint faster.

I'd gladly do this thunderdome in one day and still produce a piece completely rendered to the utmost in completion.

So yes, design is important. Very important. But don't slack on the detail and information.

Mitch



Sammy, sorry about the edit on your reply. I put it back. for some reason when I tried to quote you guys, I ended up typing right in your post. Sorry. :confused:

[Joeslucher]

So can we pick the same assignment as another match or does every single one have to be unique?

[Jason Manley]

Originally posted by mcotie
Well you guys have a point, but from all of the concept art that I've seen, nothing looks nicer than a concept piece that was done with such beauty and technique that it could stand as a work of art on its own. Plus , if you can crank out a concept piece that can give out more info the better. When doing a concept for a modeler, per example, why not paint in some nice lighting to set the mood for the environment lighting guys, and so on. And if your complaint is that something so well rendered takes too long to produce, then my solution to you is to paint faster.

I'd gladly do this thunderdome in one day and still produce a piece completely rendered to the utmost in completion.

So yes, design is important. Very important. But don't slack on the detail and information.

Mitch




mitch u all growed up now. :) Im like a proud uncle.

[davi]

I personally think there are three different types of conceptual design.

1) Pure function: This could be done by blueprints and text

2) Pure Visual: Just making something really pretty

3) Function and visual: Show something that is functional with a fantastic visual level.

If you are building something #1 can be the way to go, #2 is good just for fun. #3 is what most people are after though.

[JoshuaTheJames]

I'm not sure if that addressed my point. Only reinforced my worries.

::slices Mitch's head off and runs away giggling like a school girl:: ...or not. :D

There is Definitely enough time for every aspect of the piece. I just hope people wake up and spent the necessary time on the design...On my last T-Dome piece I spent all the time on the drawing and design and ended have nooo time for the paint...

Soo I definitely needed to be able to paint faster. That why I started the Orc thread. The subject matter is so easy that one can focus mainly on the paint. In each I was trying to analyze different approaches and ways of using the brushes to see how I could pull off a decent piece in a small amount of time.

Guys ...I didn't write any of this to be an asshole so please do not look at me as such.

-Joshua


__________________________________________________ ____
Bottom Line... Lately Painting is getting all the respect and design is secondary...

[JoshuaTheJames]

Davi I was typing that while you posted. Its not addressing your post.

-Joshua

[Wizard of KOZ]

I personaly like to see the fleshing out of a concept, and then taking those elements and bringing them into a illustration, if possible.

What Dan Milligan did for the last T-Dome was especialy refreshing, seeing his thought process, and the translation to a finished illustration.

[al-x]

Just wondering how the T-Dome 7 finished pieces thread will look when all 200ish entrys have been posted.

It will be kind of hard comparing the two entrys who are competing against each other. For example if I post my entry as post no. 42 in that thread and Joachim post his as no. 188.

It will probably be kind of messy... (but great to browse thru)

[OLSEN]

al-x,

it´s easy, one of you post both images in the same post.

[mcotie]

Joshua I'm not pissed. Like I said I understand your point.
No worries mate!

Jason. :beer: Thank you bro, for this site and all you've given us unselfishly.

Mitch

[JoshuaTheJames]

::carefully reattaches Mitch's talking head to his body::



:)

[al-x]

Originally posted by OLSEN

it´s easy, one of you post both images in the same post.

al-x is stupid, he didn't think of that

:bash: bash me head in, please

[Skank]

oh dayam...im excited!!
:chug:
im pullin out all the stops on this shizz!

gl to everyone!:fruit:

[otis]

Why don't we require aditional action studies like Dan submitted in the last one? In order to present and show off your design, you really have to do a few different poses. Especially if you are doing a character design.. (and not just a pretty picture). I seriously think this is one of the main reason's Dan won, he didn't just show one pose.

[RONIN]

I second that for character designs.

[Phuzion]

Hell, I think process pieces should be shown regardless. Unless you use 100% of your brain and creativity, you're not going to arrive at a kick ass picture the first time. There's got to be some thumbnails drawn and whatnot... show some of that whether it's character design, environments, or a full illustration. It never hurts to show your process, and can teach others a lot. So, in this case, more is more!

[otis]

I'm not talking about the process...I'm talking about studies. How you came to your final design is interesting, but relative none the less. I'm refering more to animation studies, and a variety of poses that show not just different angles of your character, but also personality.

[cartoonfox]

hi, will there be a thunderdome wip thread? not neccisarily to get help and advice (thats cheating!! :D) but just to show everyone your progress, and to show your rival what you've done so far.

thanks .

[Jason Manley]

Originally posted by JOSHUATHEJAMES
I'm not sure if that addressed my point. Only reinforced my worries.

::slices Mitch's head off and runs away giggling like a school girl:: ...or not. :D

There is Definitely enough time for every aspect of the piece. I just hope people wake up and spent the necessary time on the design...On my last T-Dome piece I spent all the time on the drawing and design and ended have nooo time for the paint...

Soo I definitely needed to be able to paint faster. That why I started the Orc thread. The subject matter is so easy that one can focus mainly on the paint. In each I was trying to analyze different approaches and ways of using the brushes to see how I could pull off a decent piece in a small amount of time.

Guys ...I didn't write any of this to be an asshole so please do not look at me as such.

-Joshua


__________________________________________________ ____
Bottom Line... Lately Painting is getting all the respect and design is secondary...


josh you spent all your time on the design of the armor and such but you missed the design of the character...that dood would get his ass handed to him in battle...pretty armor or not. if you are making a character...think about what actor you would want to play the role.

j

[Oblio]

he will cast me, you fool :evilbat: :D
you should do the same.. he he. now.. how's paying more? (since i know you, you can pay me in drawing lessons :D :chug: )

Oblio (back to 1st love :p )

[otis]

hmm: Ok,...I have a major problem with evereyone picking their own specific theme and subject matter. What kind of mass confusion and chaos is this going to cause? environments, characters, vehicles...etc?? WE NEED SOME GUIDLINES!!! I don't think that the rules should be thrown out. How in the hell are you suppoed to keep track of the themes??? Please lets all follow some sort of guidline!!!!! Or else what is the point??

[geoffd]

Originally posted by THUNDERDOME_ADMIN

...Choose your rules, pick your subject matter and then battle to the finish!

Judging will weigh in creativity, idea development, technique, presentation, and other factors.


i don;t see how that will cause mass confusion? each "Battle" will be judged according to those guidelines, be it character, environment, vehicle...

[davi]

i was considering making a subforum for the thunderdome just for the t7 contest

each challenge could make their own thread and talk what they wanted to do, that could also be where the final images would be stored.

thoughts?

[al-x]

That would be great davi...

Do it! Do it!

[benzo]

davi- I think that's an excellent idea! just do it.

I also think that no rules are just right. this is just for fun after all. No rules, just tools! in the end all the pieces together will look like a massive kickass portfolio with a wide spectrum... I can't wait!

Everyone, I have to say I feel for what Joshua the James is saying. Design is the foundation of concept, the most important element; everything else is just the icing on the cake. We should not forget that, but I see it neglected all the time here, like Josh says.

mcotie, Mr. Manley, you made your points too, and I think they complement what Josh is saying. But Mr. Shaw is on to something here.

As for the action poses, I think they are great and they definitely don't hurt. Dan Milligan did a fantastic job with his the last contest. If I was an ass I would have pointed out to the fact that the rules stated entries would be a full-color illustration, "a" as in single.

I guess my point is, if you include multiple pictures for an entry, it can make the contest unbalanced and difficult to judge..... if the opponent only has one picture to counter. I hate to say the word "unfair", but unless the rules set by the contestants call for multiple pictures per entry, they should not be allowed.

[Phuzion]

I certainly see where Benzo is coming from... Perhaps if you state that a specific picture is the one to be judged, but the others are just for show, that would be a possibility.

However, if someone did submit tons of pics, but they weren't that good, then the amount shouldn't matter. I don't think having multiple pictures makes the judging more difficult.

But, the bottom line here is to focus on every aspect, from conceptualization to final highlights in someone's eye! Because the end result depends on the energy put into all those inbetweens. Poor design will show in the end product.

[JoshuaTheJames]

Yo Jason,

Yeah I agree that brother would have is ass handed on a plate. I was having so much fun and got caught up in my own little world that the character had little to no hardcoreness.
One good this is. I think it will be a decent piece for my portfolio when I finish up the paints. What do you think?

-Joshua

[Dan Milligan]

Ya know I taken some heat over my Tdome 6 entry, but I'll tell you what I think. I learned early in my career that its that extra mile that puts you above the rest. A client needs two drawings, I give them four. A productions got ten thousand to spend on me I give them twelve. That’s how I work! I don’t worry about the “Fine print”. I do the best and the most I can do and I get it delivered on time, everytime. This is Thunderdome! Christ almighty, TAKE NO PRISONERS.

Dan
(making a seldom seen serious face)

[Wizard of KOZ]

Awesome Idea Davi!

Go for it!

[softdrawer]

sounds good davi !

[otis]

That's right Dan!!! Set the bar!!! Every man for himself!! If you want to win, you have to get your ass kicked first!!:googley:

[seb]

awww... thanks. i got a few calls from teachers and other people wishing me good luck with this. i can't believe you dug that up. i bet its going to be gone soon like the other post was. i doubt mr. manley will go for pencils unless there was a power outage in texas.

[Prometheus|ANJ]

Dan is right of course. We should approach this as if we were trying to impress a client. Layouting art properly on sheets will make it look more pro.

If it's about concept design, then it's my belief that a good design will still hold up even if it's just a small pencil thumbnail.

Personally I think it interesting to see concept art with:
1) Idea & thumbnailing
2) Clean displays of the character
3) Panels that tell a bit about the mood of the character and setting it's in.

But must it be concept/design related or can it be art in general? You choose subject, style and media or just subject? It would be unfair if say foster challanged me to do pale psychotic guys in brown leather jackets, or if I challanged him to do kawaii manga-chibi girls in panties.

[hanneskruppa]

It seems only logical that if this is a contest of 'skillz', it should involve both sketches as well as paintings, as both are extremely valuable.

Or, in other words, if a participant in this thunderdome is afraid to show his drawings, then maybe he shouldn't have put out the challenge in the first place.

So, in that sense, why not make it one final painting, and a certain number of design sketches, value studies, etc leading up to that final. We can specify numbers if we need.

Deleted threads and all, I would love to see Jason draw, and Seb paint.

That sounds fair, no?

[Phuzion]

Hhhhhmmm... I don't think it's necessary to require someone to paint, or to draw. I do both, so I'm not saying this out of fear. However, if it's a contest of skills, then each contestant should do what they're best at, or what they think will best represent their skill set. A kick ass drawing will hold its own against a kick ass painting, there's no such thing as an ultimately superior medium, unless you're from the Rennaissance. As for process, I think people should show their process, but only because it's valuable for everyone to see. If they have no process, fine, their work will not be as strong as someone else's work. It's not about who has the widest skill set, cause then I'd be drawing, painting, digitally painting, modeling on the computer, and animating... it's about who can convey whatever idea is agreed upon to the highest level. If someone nails it with markers, and the other person screws it up in paints, that just shows that the painter didn't have the skills to pull through when compared to the makerer.
So, what does all this rambling amount to? Open medium! Use what you want, use what you know, use what you need to to survive. You wouldn't wear full plate armor if you're on the SWAT team, so if you suck at drawing, why would you draw if you're showing off your skills? Yeah, I'm gonna stop now. Peace

[seb]

A kick ass drawing will hold its own against a kick ass painting

yes. thats why the unwashed masses buy drawings at ikea to hang on their walls. its a fairly unbalanced playing field between drawings and paintings. Maybe someone will tell you about it when you get older.

in the end, its easier to compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges. an open medium is for people that want to hide behind their comfort zone.

[hanneskruppa]

Originally posted by Phuzion
A kick ass drawing will hold its own against a kick ass painting, there's no such thing as an ultimately superior medium, unless you're from the Rennaissance.

at the risk of escalating this into an argument, with all due respect, that 's not true. More often than not, colour wins. Even over drawings with far superior design content. Paintings are a hot commodity in the industry. On the other hand, you will have a hard time getting hired with only a b/w portfolio. Dealing with clients who might not have an art education, this becomes even more apparent. They lo-o-ove colour.

Which is not to say that drawings are useless. They are essential in the process for ideation, exploration, when working with other artists/designers. Doing proper design, especially when developing shapes and surfaces, without drawing during the process, is very difficult. The good painting may be what sells the idea in the end, but the idea won't be there without the drawings behind it. There can't be one without the other.

Which brings us back full circle: For concept art, bothdrawing and painting are essential, and hence both should be part of the contest.

[Phuzion]

Seb: I'd watch your tone dude. Who's hiding behind his comfort zone? Maybe I'm the only one that can be objective, because I like drawings just as much as paintings. Look at Frazetta's paintings and tell me in all honesty that they are hands down better than his drawings. And can you really tell me that what people buy at Ikea is art? Use a decent analogy next time. But you're right, maybe I'm wrong and your drawings won't stand up against Manley's paintings. I couldn't say cause I haven't seen your work. Overall, you just need to chill the hell out. We're not all out for your blood man. Peace

Hanneskruppa: If this was about selling the end result, then we'd have to worry about what the public loves, but it's not. And it's not about creating a portfolio to get a job with. It's just artists battling artists for fun! And since we're all artists here, we should be able to appreciate all mediums and judge objectively.

All in all, I'm not on anyone's side. I'm primarily a pencil artist, but I see no harm in using whatever the hell you want. I want to use full color because I need the practice, but if Lukias wants it in only pencil, I'll go that road too. Let's just bring the chill factor up a bit, huh?

[hanneskruppa]

Originally posted by Phuzion

All in all, I'm not on anyone's side. I'm primarily a pencil artist, but I see no harm in using whatever the hell you want.

Right.

Just for the record, I'm on seb's side.

And, btw. I like drawings just as much as paintings too.

and now that we've beaten that topic to death, i should get some drawings done.

cheers,

ben

[Skank]

see..why yall gotta bring this shit up again...we dont wanna hear it. at least I dont.
JM and seb can duke it out in PM's like everyone else, no need to have flame wars about this crap.

thats why there are individual fights, lets everyone pick their battlefields and duke it out!!

personally i cant wait to see all these pros throw down, theres gonna be some serious fallout after this! :p

cheers guys, and good luck to all :chug: :beer:

[hanneskruppa]

Phuzion,

apologies for being an ass. it's not my position to question whom youre with.

let me explain quickly my reasoning for taking seb's side:

Jason, with all his industry experience, charisma, his huge fan following in this forum, is challenging little seb, who just got out of school, to an art 'duel', here, in Jason's home base, where everybody knows and loves him.

It's like you beat up a 10 year younger kid in your backyard in front of all your buddies.

As much as seb may have provoked Jason, as much as this 'duel' might seem the justified response, the advantages are very unequally spread here.The VERY, VERY least Jason can do, as a proper gent, is to allow seb, who didn't ask for any of this, to have a hint of influence on how this mess is gonna unfold, i.e. agree to seb's suggestion to inlcude pencil drawings. I mean, he can't possibly be afraid of doing drawings, having been in this business for so long. It will be much better of a triumph for Jason if he wins without anybody saying that the show was rigged.

The fact that drawing really IS important, only adds to this argument.

And thus concludes my final plea for BOTH drawings and a painting for BOTH seb and Jason.

[Skank]

ahh, a civil post :chug:
good to see that hanneskruppa
but like i said earlier, i think JM and seb should duke out the particulars of their epic bout in PM's, no need to drag us all into a flame war.

and i too would love to see the process they both go thru, from concept, to final finished piece. i know me and bryan are going to do that in our match, i hope more do it as well

cheers!

[Phuzion]

:chug: Cheers to you Hanneskruppa, well put. I agree. I won't post anymore on this, cept that I'm glad we got a killer Thunderdome out of it, and that we got some super heavyweights hittin'! Peace all.

[Dan Milligan]

nicely put Prom,

My point is we should all do what we do best. Bring ideas to life. Medium shouldn't matter, one or many drawing, who cares. We're artists lets have fun! Leave the B.S. up to the suits, lids and lawyers. One person will win and one will lose.... life goes on.

Peace
Dan

[Android]

Seb-

your just digging your own grave my friend,

Jason could kick your ass with a box of crayons on a greasy piece of cardboard-

I do find it amusing that your trying to expliot what you assume is jasons weekpoint.

youe new comfort zone is going to be the losers bracket!!

good luck chump!

:)

[cartoonfox]

hmmm, what ever happend to "please keep the thread clean and free of written clutter. answers will be provided." :D ;)

i'll try and ask again. will there be a thunderdome wip thread?

thanks.

[seb]

bring on the crayons on a greasy piece of cardboard! personally i like hanneskruppa's suggestion that i do some painting in addition to my drawings and jason does some drawings in addition to his paintings. then its a more comprehensive battle or more well rounded i should say. a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

i find this more entertaining and rather silly than anything else. can you imagine sitting in your office or studio and some guy comes in and slaps you with a glove and says "I CHALLENGE YOU TO DAH THUNDERDOME!!!" ? Maybe its just that by nature I dislike competitive things and tend to mock them because i don't see the point nor have fun doing them. i draw and all that because most of the time i dont mind it, and some of the time its actually fun. I dont draw because i want to compete.

[Jason Manley]

apparently some of you cant read.

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?postid=134504#post134504

fourth post from the bottom.

please keep the thread clean of trash. if you have something to say to me...send it in a pm from your real username account. i will know who you are regardless so you might as well use your actual account.


jason

ps..if i find people making fake usernames to hide behind their words I will be removing all your accounts. on that note..seb..which username do you want to use here of the five you have registered?

[Fozzybar]

he, that was the thing i was thinking all the time...you already accepted...

Hey, Davi...we should definitely have one thread for every duel...i also know that this is a LOT, because we have nearly 100 duels i guess...but otherwise if we have only one thread with 100 duel pieces, there would be just a comments-mess at the end...and btw if the users have a vote, you could make a poll for every duel/thread easiely!

[RONIN]

If every battle has it's own thread this would kill two birds with one stone. Each "combatant" can show any WIP they choose and you can have a poll for each battle. I like the idea of individual threads.

Since it is a "head to head" competition people may NOT want to post WIP's and just save everything for the end. 100 battlethreads w/WIP's could get awfully large though.

[Skank]

it doesnt mention anything about voting in the rules post.
i think its going to be judges only

[Joachim]

Hmmm, this whole thunderdome forum is getting a bit messy. I don't know which of the threads I should write in, post in or what....so al-x you can run our show :) Let me know what you wanna draw, and what medium, if you want us to use the same. you can decide, I like being told not choose :) -or, what would you prefer?

And hopefull I can figure out which threads I should keep on reading and write in :beer:

[otis]

DAM I LOVE THIS SHIT!!! The competive natures in all of us are fired UP!!! I think we artist need to have more of this!!! (NOT THE PERSONAL BASHING CRAP) but good 'ol shit talk'n. Personally J, that's all I think Seb is doing. But I think I would put my money on J. BTW, I LOVE your new pic Dan!!!

Lets get this Thunderdome going!!!

[Fipse]

:iws:

Greatest thing happened here for a long time ... and I haven´t got the time to take part :( But I will likely watch the bloody spectacle and give thumbs up or downs ...

Fipse

[SaltyDog]

Originally posted by seb

i find this more entertaining and rather silly than anything else. can you imagine sitting in your office or studio and some guy comes in and slaps you with a glove and says "I CHALLENGE YOU TO DAH THUNDERDOME!!!" ?

Just to let you know....Interplay back in the day had a long standing tradition of challenging rival gaming companies to their annual paintball contest. Their process was usually provocative...Sending fish heads, etc. On one such occasion they walked into Virgin (who was across the street) and interrupted a VERY important meeting. They simply pulled paintball guns from their jackets and lit up the walls of the conference room. Everyone hit the floor and needless to say there were some soiled shorts that day. Incidentally, Virgin accepted the challenge :)

SO VIVA LA COMPETITION!!!

[Jason Manley]

interplay paintball was great!! hahah....artists vs programmers/producers was the most fun for me.

black isle vs tantrum/digital mayhem was fun too.

i wasnt there for the virgin stuff...but yeah...tis true...people were prepping their paintball guns during meetings even when i was there.

not to mention quake battles...the meeting where one of the art leads left there was a quake challenge issued to see who got to have his big chair. if i remember correctly Justin Sweet won that battle.

there were pullup contests...car races...burnout contests in the parking lot....dice rolling gambling....you name it.


j

[Deth Jester]

Three eyed snake!!!!!

Take it to the box!!!!

[Legato]

YES! THANK YOU EVERYBODY AT CA.ORG, I FINALLY WON MY GRAPHICS TABLET!!!

seriously, i though this was dead, and than BAM, i got it!!!! see guys, i told you this would happen eventually!!!

[Fozzybar]

?????

[dfacto]

Legato you're a dirty liar. Stop taunting us!! :nohope:

[Nobie]

Let the work do the talking!