Is Manga truly art?

[Dramox]

Something has been bothering me. A few people I know have said that they don't believe Manga to be real art. I can partly understand where they are coming from since manga has little detail in the product, but some manga I have read is actually more well drawn than some comic books or even concept art that I have seen.

You thoughts on the subject?

[Farvus]

Please clarify. What do they mean by real art? There is no such thing.

Not fine art? Not abstract art? Not commercial art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_art)? Not concept art? Not illustration art? Not tatoo art?

Some of those above are true. Some are not. Guess which ones.

[Man Made God]

since manga has little detail in the product

Ever read Vagabond? Adult manga tends to be more realistic and detailed. I would say manga is in the same area as other fantasy art, including comics and concept work.

[pitabread]

Depends on your definition of "art". I don't consider it "art" in the same context of fine art (i.e. museum stuff), but then I don't consider Western comics, concept illustration or other commercial arts to be "art" in that context either.

OTOH, I do consider it "art" in the context of illustration, since that's what it is after all. Detail has nothing to do with it and I don't understand how that could even be a factor.

[Dramox]

Very good question, I will ask them the next time I see them. I believe that they can't see something as art unless it is in a museum or a frame. Thank you for your input guys.

[kab]

Manga is a visual and narrative style, it's not more or less "art" than anything else put down on paper to communicate a story or an idea... :)

[SigonWulf]

Yeah its Sequential Art. My art teachers bring Sequential Art up every time someone mentions manga or comics.

[rpace]

Manga is actually a medium, like film, books, TV or radio. Actually, it's the same thing as comics as the only differences are cultural.

You're as likely to find so-called art in manga as in other predominantly for entertainment media.

~Richard

[Call0ps]

Couldnt say any better rpace ;). Dramox I know what you meant, and the answer is YES IT IS ART! I dont understand why there's any doubt =\. Unfortunately, maybe because is so often copied by others that became something similar in general. You should more likely ask if, what Copycats do is art, that would be an more accrued question.

[Sloas]

I agree with rpace, in a way.

While he has a very valid point, generally speaking, [as in, referring to manga as art] I do not consider manga, anime, or cartoons as 'art'. They are for entertainment.
Personally, I don't enjoy manga or anime, but that doesn't affect my opinion. I also don't care a lot for some abstract art, but.. I still consider it art.

You can't really say, though, whether it is or isn't art. As much as it pains me to say 'manga isn't art. period.', it may be considered art as a subcategory.

And manga / anime being copied has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it is art.
People paint pictures all the time. This doesn't make the pictures not pictures. People also copy Van Gogh, Thomas Kincade, etc. And that doesn't make their art any less of an art.
Though I don't know why anyone would want to copy anime / manga.

[rpace]

I see no reason to exclude anything because it entertains. Shakespeare was popular culture in his day and still entertains and is as much a gimme as art as anything. I'd consider David Chase's The Sopranos a work of art as well.

There are a certain number of manga, anime and cartoons that I would certainly consider capital "A" Art. Barefoot Gen, Lone Wolf and Cub, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind among many others, anime has Akira, Tokyo Stories and a number of other outstanding works.

I'm always reluctant to exclude someathing as art because it hasn't produced something with vast critical acclaim or that I may be unaware of a work that would rise to a levl of what I would call art.

As recently explored on these forums, art now covers far too much for it to have a definition of any real worth beyond what the user wants it to mean.

~R

[kab]

Remember that in their day, da Vinci and Michelangelo were not valued because they were artists, but because they were gifted illustrators and craftsmen who could provide decoration.

Yesterdays design and illustration is the "art" of tomorrow...

[Ilaekae]

Sloas...

"generally speaking, [as in, referring to manga as art] I do not consider manga, anime, or cartoons as 'art'. They are for entertainment."

I assume that also eliminates every single piece that has ever appeared on this forum except for copies of old masters and life studies. That might upset the people like ALL of Massive Black, and all the other NON-artists who design characters for entertaining games and movies, illustrate covers for books, and every single comic artist (Whoops...I meant NON-artists) who ever did a comic of any kind.

Before I jump to the wrong conclusion and assume that you have your head lodged securely up your ass (which I really don't want to do...), please explain your comment a little better so we can all understand it, because you just "stated" that probably 95%+ of all the people on this forum have nothing to do with art.

Ilaekae (political cartoonist, editorial artist, designer, [soon-to-be] mangaka/comics artist, illustrator, animator, and a few other things that I sort of forget right now...)

[Nam]

Those people are stupid.

[bhanu]

Though I don't know why anyone would want to copy anime / manga
YOu havent been to deviantart, have you?

I think the only art is when we pee on walls after a drunken night. THat piss is art.

[Dusty]

Do you call the person who creates it an "artist"?

Then it's art.

[TheJester]

I think the basic disbelief against manga is based on what is concidered a "finished product" or a complete work, if you wish, in manga culture, as opposed to western comics or illustrations....

Although I understand the arguement though, I completely disagree with it. If you see manga in the context of it's own culture, and try to understand the different ways symbolism is used in Japanese art, or more so , how the human figure has been illustrated in eastern cultures through the centuries, you will understand a bit more about it.

Goku's muscles in dragonball are not so painfully disproportioned, or his facial features so simplyfied, cause the artist "didn't know better", but because that is the visual effect to which he is aiming. You wouldn't judge japanese prints or murals as being too minimalistic, or the smurfs for being too stupid as a design, or Asterix for being way out of proportions, right?

Art is not measured in workhours or detail, in fact, art is not measured period.

So in conclusion, yes, manga is art. Good manga is great art, and awesome manga is purely devine!!!! :D

[Jem'ennuie]

Of course it is.

[Jem'ennuie]

You can't really say, though, whether it is or isn't art. As much as it pains me to say 'manga isn't art. period.', it may be considered art as a subcategory.

A subcategory?? Lol. Manga artists are able to create thousands of pages in a week. Very very few western people are able to produce content at such a rate.

Manga exists because it's a fast way to produce visuals. It came from a need to produce work very fast after WW2. An old master working a month on one piece will of course have a more detailed work than the manga artist who made a whole book full of them.

Manga artists are incredibly respected in Japan. No one looks down on them, they are considered very advanced craftsmen.

If you don't even understand why manga exists, you shouldn't comment on it and yes it's art.

That is all, and there's no 'subcategory' in art. Either something is art or it's not.

[J Wilson]

People need to stop trying to label everything. In my opinion, the only people who worry about what IS and IS NOT art, are art students and art critics. Most everyone else just enjoys what they enjoy and don't really care what it is. I find the people who try the hardest to define "art" are the ones that are most clueless about it.

[GaussianRaider]

Hey Wilson, I think the problem is also caused by fear and ignorance, I think of insecure artists that feel menaced by the praise of artist that use a different style.
I think the "is-not-really-art" argument is made up to reassure themselves and belittle what is different.

[jhgoforth]

/shrug if you don't consider manga/anime to be art, then throw comics/western animation as non-art too. Because they both come from exactly the same type of roots in their respective culture (animation/anime being more solidly entwined via post ww2 and disney). To deny the japanese equivalent is to deny our own forms of the same thing.

[Flashback]

Isn't this one of those things that can be label as "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" type things.

It's all seen as opinions rather then Facts.

[riceface]

by ur logic, lets write off every cartoon/disney as not art since its simple, of course its frakin art what the hell is wrong with you

someone drew it didnt it? if a dumbass tribute to squares is considered art then anime is art.

better yet, lets see u try to duplicate some of the high end korean anime art, b4 u write it off, u can't because it takes skill

[Viridis]

Although I understand the arguement though, I completely disagree with it. If you see manga in the context of it's own culture, and try to understand the different ways symbolism is used in Japanese art, or more so , how the human figure has been illustrated in eastern cultures through the centuries, you will understand a bit more about it.

Goku's muscles in dragonball are not so painfully disproportioned, or his facial features so simplyfied, cause the artist "didn't know better", but because that is the visual effect to which he is aiming. You wouldn't judge japanese prints or murals as being too minimalistic, or the smurfs for being too stupid as a design, or Asterix for being way out of proportions, right?

Indeed. Asian Art had a different focus for most of their art history; primarily in that the art was seen as more of a spiritual or emotional experience, and conveying that within the piece was more important than strictly realistic rendering. (As my Asian Art History professor remarked, Chinese artists apparently thought perspective was a nice gimmick, but not a requirement for good art.)

Also, let's not forget that manga's stylization (notably the large eyes, etc) is mostly developed off of Tezuka's work, and he was borrowing from Disney. Disney, in turn, had simple, round characters because they were easier to animate. So it's all a circle.

A subcategory?? Lol. Manga artists are able to create thousands of pages in a week. Very very few western people are able to produce content at such a rate.

It's worth noting that this is a rather large exaggeration. The average manga serial produces either one episode a week (which run about 20 pages) or one per month (which are usually closer to 40 pages). The weekly serials are most often the fighting stories, where you can take up whole pages with just one or two images because the fight scenes are all single figures and swooshy lines. So drawing 20 pages in a week when you have few detailed panels to do is perhaps more manageable than some others.

Also, it's my understanding that the manga-ka does at most the pencils and perhaps the inks; most popular manga have a large staff of assistants to do all the really tedious work like hand-cutting the greyscale tones and such. The process is not terribly different from that of American comics, it's just based in greyscale instead of color for cheaper printing.

Anyway, yes. Manga is certainly a form of art. Dismissing art just because it's meant to entertain--that's just rash and rather uninformed. At that rate, you have to cut out all music, movies, theatre, and popular art... which doesn't actually leave you with very much. It's like the fine artists who are convinced illustration or concept art isn't "real art" just because it's commissioned. :/

Now, a better question might be, if somebody picks a crappy sofa out of the trash and puts in on display in a museum, how is THAT more "art" than manga?

[dark eagle]

Western arts looks for different things from Asian arts from the point of view of comics/manga.

The "manga" style so to speak was made(or is used) in my mind to quickly get across to you character and emotion. It is much easier to draw 100 pages of manga than to paint/draw 100 pages of Sargent inspired comics.

So the second point I have is that manga is for comics and so on. Its the same thing with anime. The thing is if the style of drawing was the only thing that these manga artists have they wouldn't be as popular as they are. Sure they still would be making amazing art but it wouldn't have took off as much (at least in western countries).

The story is often what gets me hooked to manga or anime or any form of storytelling rather than the looks, obviously this has limits, I used to watch gundam wing a long time ago when I was 5 or 6 on cartoon network. Back then I was captured by

1) the gundams/mechs I still have a passion for the gundams design.
2) the great battle sequences
3) the anime style it self

It had a great enough effect on me to track down the name of the anime and buy the whole series a few months ago.

This time around if it was only those things I'd have gone back to get a refund however(ok to be honest i love the gundams enough to sit through 52 20 minute episodes), what got me involved this time was the storyline.

No manga would be complete without a storyline. Manga is for making comics with it can be adopted to make stunning artwork but its main purpose is and always will be for comics.

It is a art yes but first and foremost a way of storytelling. Well thats how I see it. Ask an animefan boy/girl they will probably say something completely opposite to that or hint towards it.

[dark eagle]

O and yes to prove that ask someone that watched the death note anime and has watched the live action.

For me they are both very good.

An example of Asian/Eastern storytelling which stayed great on both mediums.

[Sloas]

Sloas...

"generally speaking, [as in, referring to manga as art] I do not consider manga, anime, or cartoons as 'art'. They are for entertainment."

I assume that also eliminates every single piece that has ever appeared on this forum except for copies of old masters and life studies. That might upset the people like ALL of Massive Black, and all the other NON-artists who design characters for entertaining games and movies, illustrate covers for books, and every single comic artist (Whoops...I meant NON-artists) who ever did a comic of any kind.

Before I jump to the wrong conclusion and assume that you have your head lodged securely up your ass (which I really don't want to do...), please explain your comment a little better so we can all understand it, because you just "stated" that probably 95%+ of all the people on this forum have nothing to do with art.

Ilaekae (political cartoonist, editorial artist, designer, [soon-to-be] mangaka/comics artist, illustrator, animator, and a few other things that I sort of forget right now...)

You know, that's really not what I meant. I didn't really know exactly how to explain my thoughts on the subject. But I guess that means that I have my head lodged securely up my ass. You really took that the wrong way, as I'm assuming the rest did.
But, damn it, I thought that this was a mature site with no childish shit.
The topic creater asked for our thoughts on the subject, and I gave them mine, as did the rest of you.
Now, had there been a "Sloas, what in the world does that mean?" I would have tried explaining in a different way.
I don't want to jump to the conclusion, though, that you too much of an ass to care, or listen.

Jem'ennuie: If you're trying to explain to art to someone, sure it has subcategories, or forms.
Abstract, Metalworking, Ceramics, Sculpture, Landscape, Photography, Woodworking, Architecture, etc.

I find this topic, and the various points made, quite interesting.

[Elwell]

But, damn it, I thought that this was a mature site with no childish shit.

Ilaekae's the most mature person on this site.

[Ilaekae]

...damn. This site's really in trouble, then... :P

[pitabread]

I assume that also eliminates every single piece that has ever appeared on this forum except for copies of old masters and life studies. That might upset the people like ALL of Massive Black, and all the other NON-artists who design characters for entertaining games and movies, illustrate covers for books, and every single comic artist (Whoops...I meant NON-artists) who ever did a comic of any kind.

Eh, you know if anyone actually gets that upset based on a single opinion of a single random internet poster... maybe it's not the 'biz for them.

That said, I agree with what Sloas said in principle. I think there is a difference between commercial illustration (i.e. as used in comics, concept art, storyboards, advertising, etc) versus art for art's sake. I think a lot comes down to differences in intent, motivation, and creative freedom.

Of course, I also feel the same way about other creative mediums like film, television, music, etc. Some I would consider "art", others not so much.

[Ilaekae]

"Eh, you know if anyone actually gets that upset based on a single opinion of a single random internet poster... maybe it's not the 'biz for them."

Just for the record...I wasn't upset. I was calmly expressing an honest opinion based on over forty years of professional work and nearly 20 years as a specialized teacher/instructor. And I would have said the same thing to you, pita', if you had made the same comment Sloas made.

The question "Is Manga Art?" leaves no room for fudging. It has one, and only one clear answer..."YES." No one asked if it was a form of, a bastard cousin of, a facsimile of, or totally unrelated to, art. They asked if it was ART. Period.

[pitabread]

Just for the record...I wasn't upset. I was calmly expressing an honest opinion based on over forty years of professional work and nearly 20 years as a specialized teacher/instructor. And I would have said the same thing to you, pita', if you had made the same comment Sloas made.

Well, you did say it "might" upset people. At which point, I think that anyone upset over a random internet person's comments needs to check themselves post haste.

The question "Is Manga Art?" leaves no room for fudging. It has one, and only one clear answer..."YES." No one asked if it was a form of, a bastard cousin of, a facsimile of, or totally unrelated to, art. They asked if it was ART. Period.

Depends on your definition of "is". :P

[Ilaekae]

Bite...me... :P ...then exhale.

[vandalrat]

Ilaekae (political cartoonist, editorial artist, designer, [soon-to-be] mangaka/comics artist, illustrator, animator, and a few other things that I sort of forget right now...)

Explain the blue text.

[Ilaekae]

Could be a bit of wishful thinking, but I'm getting together a series of non-related comic collections i hope to publish in the next year. It all hinges on my health and my house not collapsing. There will also be a series of posters/prints, with the intent to start attending some comic-con/scifi-con type of events and maybe online offerings. What can I say? I'm old and stupid...and I need money because I'm retired and living on $19.57 social security a year...:P

[vandalrat]

You got a customer in me, and I bet many others in these forums, all I can say is best of luck.

Will you be doing it by yourself or try getting a publisher.

"Fantagraphics Books publishes comics for thinking readers - readers who like to put their minds to work, who have a sophisticated understanding of art and culture, and appreciate personal expression unfettered by uncritical use of cliché."

For some reason, I felt stupid the first time I read that small piece of text, also made me understand why the only comics I have from fanta are some ancient Peanuts and Usagi Yojimbo.

[Ilaekae]

I learned the hard way to be a control freak, so I'll be doing it myself if at all possible.

Did a specialized book in the early 90s (for stamp collectors) and had to threaten the publisher with bodily violence in front of about 200 witnesses. Fouled the run up, lost the negatives, lost some of the master art, you name it. After a quick discussion with some other people I had had run-ins with, he handed me back the rights, all receipts and records of sale, and every existing copy of the book he had in his possession.

Sometimes it pays to be an assumed psychopath... :P

[vandalrat]

Maybe stuff like lulu.com or wowio.com could open new chances you haven't considered?

I know you know your thing, probably much better than I will ever know my thing; just trying to be helpful.

[~Faust~]

Hey Ilaekae, How 'bout you start a scetchbook? :P I'd crit ya!

[Clochette]

Don't be so *draw a square*... please.
You only judge manga, anime and cartoon by what you can see of it on deviant art or by the huge amont of fanart and pokemon drawings you can find if you search "manga" with google image or what??
There is masterpieces in these parts of art, as some other said. Akira is one of the best exemple, and the movie is excellent too, with sick enviros and designs.
And damn, why cartoons should only be for "entertainement" >> understand : a second class kind of media?? I swear that when I watch Heavy Metal my mind is more stimulate than when I'm looking at some boring classic nudes by a wannabee classical painter who mimics things we already knew since ages without adding anything new.
Woooooooooh I said something evil right? BLASPHEMY !!!

[Gax]

Is art, truely art ?

Is drawing duck truely art ?

Is your question shit ?

Is manga art ?

my answer is yes

but for someone else it will be, No.

so, crappy thread.

[rattsang]

if its good its art, if its bad its not, same as all the other styles................

[Farvus]

Yep. I agree with Clochette.
There are many anime series based on manga that made me think about real life problems more than anything else. Maybe some could be a bit too infantile for certain tastes but at least they are not so pompous like many super serious live action dramas :P.

[jhgoforth]

Something I find fun and educational is to read about various things. If i go to a library to study like I did in college...it was like sending a 5yr old into a candy store with unlimited cash. Very little studying, but lots of exploring. ;P In that type of moment I came upon some books showing buddhist statues from Japan (particularly the statues in Nara). I began to realize how much of things we consider 'stereotypical' cliches in Anime, such as Dragonball Z and the blonde glowing hair for powering up, were symbols. They are symbols from the buddhist culture of ancient japan. Much like our symbolism in figures such as the stoic moses and his 'staff' that enabled God's miracles (ever wonder why 'wizards' in fiction always need a powerful staff? ...ignoring the fruedian aspects...). There are statues of buddhist figures with hair spiking that was symbolic of their holy righteousness and purity of heart. Just because the symbolism seems trite and cliche to us, it's a visual expression of a deeper meaning in asia. I'm sure there are many things from Hollywood that make little to no sense to Asian cultures (i'm imagining the stoic bad ass cop/authority figure who 'breaks' the rules to get things done being among those...)

And to leave with a taste of the fascinating, from the website http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/ a simple comparison. All in all, it's fascinating how even the very old visual themes can still exist today, albiet in very different formats and intents.

[ShroudStar]

I'm sure there are many things from Hollywood that make little to no sense to Asian cultures (i'm imagining the stoic bad ass cop/authority figure who 'breaks' the rules to get things done being among those...)

It's been done. Check out a manga series called 'Jiraishin' (aka 'Ice Blade' when it was released in the US) by Tsutomu Takahashi. It follows the story of a young cop who goes the Dirty Harry route and does whatever it takes to get the criminals jailed or in many cases, dead. It's rather amazing in execution and the cases tackled have depth. Even more wonderful is how the art changes from more generic manga style to a beautifully rendered realism done with brush art.

[Matsign]

blame or love Japan for anime & manga.

blame or love Disney for furries.

[TheJester]

That said, I agree with what Sloas said in principle. I think there is a difference between commercial illustration (i.e. as used in comics, concept art, storyboards, advertising, etc) versus art for art's sake. I think a lot comes down to differences in intent, motivation, and creative freedom.


Meh!!!! that's a fun quote. Come on, I dare you to state 3 artists that did "art for art's sake"!!!!

No art is done for art's sake. Even the most divine works of art had a motive. Be it religion, money, fame, narcissism, or spiritual release, there's allways something.

And what you label as commercial art, is no different. Mind you, though, the great works of art of the past WERE commercial art. The ancient Greeks commisioned the famous sculptors of their time like Phedias, to create amazing works of art that pilgrims would come to see from all over the world, that's ancient commercialism for ya!

And don't get me started on the masters of the renaisance!!!! The Medicci had half of them on the payroll, to advertise their power and ethos...

[Gerulaitis]

1. Whether something is or isn't art depends on the definition of art.
2. Unless we can objectively define the word "art", there's no clear answer to the question.
3. Attempts at defining "art" (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/art-definition/) are usually futile, since way too much depends on subjective opinion.
4. This discussion is heading nowhere, and this topic has been revisited numeral times.
5. If someone enjoys manga, it's not because other people say it's art. Labels are only for discourse.

[KonnA]

Art is art. From one to a next the idea gets distorted but to his own, art IS art.

[Arshes Nei]

Yep. I agree with Clochette.
There are many anime series based on manga that made me think about real life problems more than anything else. Maybe some could be a bit too infantile for certain tastes but at least they are not so pompous like many super serious live action dramas :P.

That's because manga is made for about everything in Japan. Anime on the other hand is generally (I say GENERALLY ...or at least demographically speaking) is made for youngsters and teens. Granted there is hentai and those out of the spectrum, but most anime is targeted for that range.

For manga, you have cooking manga, sports manga, and your average daily salaryman manga. Printing costs are a lot different in Japan so it's working out as a medium very well. You can either get the phonebook compilations or wait for a tankubon of your favorite series.

Though quite honestly, there is a LOT of crap manga out there too, when you get exposed to enough of it, you'll realize that it's just as much the same for the US to here for crap..."99% of everything is crap" ideology....

[Ilaekae]

One thing I found is that the better manga and mahnwa are a hell of a lot unself-consciously funnier than most US comics. THAT is important to me.

There's also a kind of surreal bouncing between and combinations of art "styles" with the characters that doesn't occur elsewhere--it's perfectly normal to see a childlike screaming creature with glowing eyes whose head is three times bigger than her body surround by flame and explosive effects immediately after a panel where she is drawn as a very attractive and "sensitive" object of someone's adoration--and it's believable in context. This NEVER happens in US comics to this degree...

Stuff like this just doesn't appear in spider man and Archie Comics...

[NOTE: these are shown under fair use. I have to verify the mangakas and titles of the publications from my files and will post here when I verify.]

[MidgardSerpent]

One thing I found is that the better manga and mahnwa are a hell of a lot unself-consciously funnier than most US comics. THAT is important to me.

There's also a kind of surreal bouncing between and combinations of art "styles" with the characters that doesn't occur elsewhere--it's perfectly normal to see a childlike screaming creature with glowing eyes whose head is three times bigger than her body surround by flame and explosive effects immediately after a panel where she is drawn as a very attractive and "sensitive" object of someone's adoration--and it's believable in context. This NEVER happens in US comics to this degree...

Stuff like this just doesn't appear in spider man and Archie Comics...

Uhhhh, no offense, but I think a lot of people would consider that to be weak and obnoxious slapstick followed up by the obligatory fanservice and/or saccharine idolisation. There are lots of things comics can learn from manga, your example probably isn't one of them.

And the pics you posted seem very generic to me.

[BloodlustKid]

I thought this thread ended at "sequential art". If you haven't done so already, read Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics". He makes a good argument about the place of comics in the art world.

One of the many mistakes people make is assuming the artists in question never learned art. Where do they even get this from?

[Arshes Nei]

I should post up some pages from Bastard!! (but they're not quite work safe lol)

[Rabid]

Rather than the art itself, what anime needs to work on is the dialogue, it can be extremely explanatory to the point of a Nick Jr. show sometimes...nevermind if it is art or not.

I know that won't satisfy most people so I'll leave you with this.

Who was it, his name escapes me now but he said that art was "If you have something stimulating of any of the senses and it exists only to exist and nothing more." Don't know if I buy that completely but it'll give you guys something to think about.

[Avarwen]

It's art I find most people who don't think manga , comics or any from of illustration isn't art tend to pompous asses with too much time on their hands. They seem to think that every works has to peer into your soul and make you want to cut yourself and put you on Xanax. If someone works hard on something put there heart and soul into it then it's art. It doesn't have to set the world on fire. Also it doesn't help that manga has a rather annoying fanbase most of whom never learn the basics of art.

[Ilaekae]

"Uhhhh, no offense, but I think a lot of people would consider that to be weak and obnoxious slapstick followed up by the obligatory fanservice and/or saccharine idolisation. There are lots of things comics can learn from manga, your example probably isn't one of them.

And the pics you posted seem very generic to me."

Yeah, you're probably right. I should have posted something more realistically proportioned, serious, well-written and creative/original, like something from the last 20 years of Marvel or DC in the US...

[BloodlustKid]

"Uhhhh, no offense, but I think a lot of people would consider that to be weak and obnoxious slapstick followed up by the obligatory fanservice and/or saccharine idolisation. There are lots of things comics can learn from manga, your example probably isn't one of them.

And the pics you posted seem very generic to me."

Yeah, you're probably right. I should have posted something more realistically proportioned, serious, well-written and creative/original, like something from the last 20 years of Marvel or DC in the US...

Oh you!

[MidgardSerpent]

Yeah, you're probably right. I should have posted something more realistically proportioned, serious, well-written and creative/original, like something from the last 20 years of Marvel or DC in the US...
I'm glad we see eye to eye now Riceface, all it took was a little reason.

[Avarwen]

http://shoshosein.info/images/fiche/emerald1.jpg
Vagabond

http://downloads.thespectrum.net/lone_wolf_and_cub/lonewolf_v24/lonewolf_v24_052.jpg
Lone wolf and cub

There are more than these manga out there that don't use a generic style. Sadly all we tend to get is the popular generic tripe that the fankids like. There are tons of good magna out there they just have yet to be translated to English.

[Alex Chow]

Search for the Berserk manga. That's all I have to say.

[Sekino]

This conversation (and the fact that it even exists) pretty much confirms something I have been observing in comics circles: There is a clear division between comics 'factions' and I find that perplexing.

I grew up with franco-belge comics (I'm French Canadian), then discovered manga and 'American' comics at about the same time, as a teenager. In all 3 kinds, I've found amazing gems, mediocre stuff and some crap. But the gems are what made comics my favorite media. I really don't care if its BD, manga or comic.

Yet I was shocked to find so much animosity geared towards manga (mostly from the American crowd: French people embraced manga early on, probably because all comics are a respected form of art in their culture.).

What would drive me nuts was when so many would throw all manga/anime under a bus while they admitted they had never really read any manga series or explored the vast selection of genres available. What? So you glance at a Sailor Moon copy on your little sister's desk and, suddenly, you're a scholar and authority on all things manga?? Go and read Monster (a title that got kudos at the Pulitzer awards), Gunnm, Lady Snowblood... Then tell me it's 'not art'. Sheesh.

Sorry to be blunt, but what it struck me as was mainly some sort of tribalism. The attitude I would encounter stank of "we've been doing comics for decades and these mango-thingies think they can barge in our market and beat us to real bookstores? Screw 'em!" It probably didn't help matters that the mainstream manga widely appeals to girls. While I admittedly don't dig the angst and frills of most girl manga, why should anyone be upset that thousands of girls are suddenly reading comics? Manga has filled a huge gap in the comic market and it is a good thing. And a lot of shoujo titles feature lavish art, gorgeous layouts and awesome character development.

I must say I haven't seen the same negativity towards Bande Dessinées. I'm not sure if it's because it is difficult to find a wide selection from non-French publishers, so people don't know that much about them. Or maybe because most are drawn, hand-lettered, inked and hand-coloured, by a single artist. That's pretty hard to sneer at.

So, yeah: What a rant. But really what I mean is that there is fantastic art and awesome stories out there and many of them are manga. If anyone claims to love art and comics, why not partake in the buffet instead of being so finicky?

[Ilaekae]

Sekino, you might as well give up.

In the United States and the countries heavy in in US culture, humor is considered childish or slapstick, unless it's wearing an over-muscled super hero costume.

Females in a fighting or aggressive role, as well as light nudity, are dismissed as "fan-service" unless they're wearing a super hero skin-tight outfit or are in a subservient supportive rule, no matter what their cup size is.

The ability to do expressive art with a minimum of line and detail, even though any artist with a brain in their head knows otherwise, is never as good as dark moody over-detailed art.

Any mention of sex, lesbians, homosexuals, or depictions of partial or complete simple nudity are always pornographic or fan service when done by Asian artists, while people named Frazetta, Miller and a few hundred others doing exactly the same thing is considered a serious adult artform.

Minimalist art (in realistic or pseudo-realistic art) is considered "unfinished," childish, "graphic, or "somebody's not really important style" in the western art world, but highly admired among Asian artists, probably proof in their eyes that all Asian artists are poorly-trained idiots.

Humor is not important. It's never accepted as the equivalent of "real" literature or art, even tough it's probably the most difficult of all literary and visual genres. The fact that it actually requires intelligence may have something to do with its acceptence/creation, too...

Riceface

[Farvus]

There was one quote I heard for the first time was on SideBar podcast episode 75 (http://www.sidebarnation.com/my_weblog/2008/12/ep-75-sidebar-talks-to-mark-schultz-and-its-an-exploration-of-subject-matter-not-commonly-heard.html) with Mark Schultz.

Someone told Theodore Sturgeon (sci-fi writer) - "90% of science fiction is crap" and he answered "Yes, that's true but 90% of everythig is crap" :D.

[MidgardSerpent]

Was that whole tirade directed at me? If so, you're making some HUGE assumptions about me. For the record, I grew up on anime, and I still follow the occasional manga, basically whatever that piques my interest. A lot of it is complete and utter cookie cutter though, but the same holds very true for comics as well. Quality is rare. Doesn't seem that unfair of a point of view to have...I don't really see why you have to turn it into an either/or proposition. It's not a crusade, and there are probably fewer enemies than you think.



In the United States and the countries heavy in in US culture, humor is considered childish or slapstick, unless it's wearing an over-muscled super hero costume.
Humor is fine, I'm just not particularly charmed by the some of the kawaiiiii humor. I find it obnoxious and a bit cheap to be honest, and I don't think comics are in desperate need of that kind of humor. Personal opinion.



Females in a fighting or aggressive role, as well as light nudity, are dismissed as "fan-service" unless they're wearing a super hero skin-tight outfit or are in a subservient supportive rule, no matter what their cup size is.

You're just pulling this out of your ass now. I never heard anyone claim that comics aren't guilty of objectivication of women. There's a huge amount of exploitation in both comics and manga.



The ability to do expressive art with a minimum of line and detail, even though any artist with a brain in their head knows otherwise, is never as good as dark moody over-detailed art.

(....)
Minimalist art (in realistic or pseudo-realistic art) is considered "unfinished," childish, "graphic, or "somebody's not really important style" in the western art world, but highly admired among Asian artists, probably proof in their eyes that all Asian artists are poorly-trained idiots.
Hmm... I'm asian and not that great an artist. And yes, this is the only possible scenario:

Great expressive art with economic use of line VERSUS horrible over-rendered comic style of art!!

You're acting exactly as the people you're accusing of being close-minded.


And in my experience most people view asians as artistically inclined people. There are many subjects asians are ridiculed for, but drawing ability isn't one of them. And people like clean line-art, as long as it's well-done. I was blown away when I first saw Josh Middleton's work on Nyx. And while I personally never really warmed up to his work, a lot of people enjoyed Mike Wieringo's clean use of line and more light-hearted approach to comics.

Oh, and seriously, you don't need to dismiss 20 years of mainstream comics just because some random guy (me) didn't like some of the art you posted.

[Sekino]

Was that whole tirade directed at me? If so, you're making some HUGE assumptions about me. For the record, I grew up on anime, and I still follow the occasional manga, basically whatever that piques my interest.

Are you replying to my tirade or Ilaekae's? Because I was reflecting on the general topic, not responding to you at all.

[Ilaekae]

I was being sarcastic in most of my post, Midgard'...in case you missed it.

"Was that whole tirade directed at me?"

I seem to remember writing it to Sekino...did I have your name in there, too, and somehow forgotten it?

The fact that you find cute humor obnoxious is your problem, not mine. I was expressing MY opinions in the first para I posted--"One thing I found is that the better manga and mahnwa are a hell of a lot unself-consciously funnier than most US comics. THAT is important to me." MY opinion. Your answer? "...I think a lot of people would consider that to be weak and obnoxious slapstick followed up by the obligatory fanservice and/or saccharine idolisation." A lot of people? Do you have a list? A percentage. An approximation of an percentage? And is your personal opinion included in "...a lot of people?" And while we're there, which one of us was the more obnoxious in that particular "exchange," in YOUR opinion?

"Oh, and seriously, you don't need to dismiss 20 years of mainstream comics just because some random guy (me) didn't like some of the art you posted."

Don't hold yourself in such high esteem. I didn't dismiss anything because of you. That would be really childish. I simply and actually believe that nearly everything created by the major mainstream comics houses in the United States over the last 20 years++ is (with VERY few singular exceptions) ABSOLUTE FUCKING SHIT. I base that opinion on my own studies and research/reading over the last 45+ years.

"The ability to do expressive art with a minimum of line and detail, even though any artist with a brain in their head knows otherwise, is never as good as dark moody over-detailed art."

I stand by this SARCASTIC statement, both as a traditionally trained artist and as a graphic designer, though I probably should have left out the "dark moody" part for clarity. What I'm perplexed by is how you got...

"And yes, this is the only possible scenario: Great expressive art with economic use of line VERSUS horrible over-rendered comic style of art!! You're acting exactly as the people you're accusing of being close-minded."

...out of my statement. Care to explain in small words so I can understand it, because I definitely did NOT say that.

"Minimalist art (in realistic or pseudo-realistic art) is considered "unfinished," childish, "graphic," or "somebody's not really important style" in the western art world, but highly admired among Asian artists..."

I also stand by this statement. It's an opinion, again, based on years of study and familiarity with both cultures, and criticisms leveled at them both. For at least some proof that I'm not entirely wrong in my opinion, just look through some of the crits/opinions in this very forum, the opinions expressed on many other equivalent forums, as well as on many fine-arts forums. I doubt that many of these people would even grudgingly accept Ben Shawn or Paul Klee as a "real" artist...

"...probably proof in their eyes that all Asian artists are poorly-trained idiots.'

This was sarcasm, but would have been easier to spot if I had said "...western eyes" rather than "their eyes." My bad not paying attention to my writing...

"I never heard anyone claim that comics aren't guilty of objectivication of women. There's a huge amount of exploitation in both comics and manga."

Agree, but have you ever heard anyone dismiss Frazetta, Corbin, or Royco for "fan service?" Even once? I'll even accept a misspelling as an example...in a western language other than English, even...or do you have to be born on the "other" side of the Pacific to do "fan service?"


ADD: Oh...what's with the Riceface comment? I didn't understand it...

[Equality72521]

is manga art?

is porn film?

is manga film?

is porn art?









yes indeed

[Ilaekae]

Manga isn't film...try paying attention at least... :P

[Orunitier]

Didn't we already have a 40 page thread about this??

[Ilaekae]

Apparently, no matter how many pages we have, it's never enough for some people. I blame global warming...

[~Faust~]

I once met a japanese guy who hated manga.

[velderia]

Yeah. I suggest you to bring a copy of "Me and The Devil Blues" to people who still think manga isn't art or cannot be artistic. Deathnote has some pretty amazing inkwork too. CLAMP is a great team as well.

[Farvus]

:cheerleader: "Is (put something here) truly art?" :cheerleader: - Yay! It's quickly growing new trend in Art discussion! Very slowly catching up with "I can't get inspiration" threads. Stay tuned for more! Let's see how it will develop ;)

[MidgardSerpent]

Are you replying to my tirade or Ilaekae's? Because I was reflecting on the general topic, not responding to you at all.
I was referring to Ilaekae.



I was being sarcastic in most of my post, Midgard'...in case you missed it.
Holy shit, of course I understood you were being sarcastic.


The fact that you find cute humor obnoxious is your problem, not mine. I was expressing MY opinions in the first para I posted--"One thing I found is that the better manga and mahnwa are a hell of a lot unself-consciously funnier than most US comics. THAT is important to me." MY opinion. Your answer? "...I think a lot of people would consider that to be weak and obnoxious slapstick followed up by the obligatory fanservice and/or saccharine idolisation."
That I find cute humor obnoxious? So I'm having an opinion on something that's actually quite factual? I just hope that was a poorly worded sentence. And you sound like you had far more problems with my quote than I did, considering your reaction to it.



A lot of people? Do you have a list? A percentage. An approximation of an percentage? And is your personal opinion included in "...a lot of people?"
This is just being pathetically pedantic, I was hardly putting it forth as fact. I'm sure among the 'enemies of asian art' there are quite a few, as well as ones who aren't in that group. You can't be so thick-headed that you can't acknowledge there is a group of people who really don't like those particular aspects of manga, it's not rocket science. Don't forget that I also mentioned that there were definitely things comics could learn from manga, cross-pollination can be a great thing. I just thought what you brought up were poor examples.



Don't hold yourself in such high esteem. I didn't dismiss anything because of you. That would be really childish. I simply and actually believe that nearly everything created by the major mainstream comics houses in the United States over the last 20 years++ is (with VERY few singular exceptions) ABSOLUTE FUCKING SHIT. I base that opinion on my own studies and research/reading over the last 45+ years.
Replace the bolded part with manga and you'd probably consider that person to be completely and utterly ignorant. But it's fine if it's your religion! You've done the research!



...out of my statement. Care to explain in small words so I can understand it, because I definitely did NOT say that.
What's there not to understand? You get angry about people mistaking cleaner line-art for incompetence and in turn you rag on comics for being 'overly-detailed' and 'dark moody'. That's as unfair a statement as the people you're accusing of being short-sighted.




Agree, but have you ever heard anyone dismiss Frazetta, Corbin, or Royco for "fan service?" Even once? I'll even accept a misspelling as an example...in a western language other than English, even...or do you have to be born on the "other" side of the Pacific to do "fan service?"
Do you mean Luis Royo? Because I find his work to be catering to fans, quite kitschy and devoid of anything genuine. So there is your one example (if you did mean Royo). See? I dislike parts of western art also. I don't consider myself having a particular allegiance, where one side has to 'win' over the other and where criticism on your 'own' side isn't tolerated, whereas you seem to be quite hell-bent on it.

[Elwell]

Apparently, no matter how many pages we have, it's never enough for some people. I blame global warming...

It's more than enough for me.