Consumerism is brainwashing you......Noam Chomsky

[NoSeRider]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4K2uBI61z4&NR=1

I like displaying theories of cataclysmic dimensions of mind control
and persuasions of passivity.

Makes you think.

Another Noam video to brain fart you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmJv_wf91W8

[Grief]

575282

[kev ferrara]

Must.... Buy... Flat Screen Television, 40 inch...

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Must... Buy... McDonalds Meal on Credit Card...

Must... Buy... Obama Commemorative Plate (Limit 2 per person)...

Must... Buy... George Foreman Grill, Flo Bee, Sham Wow, Tai Bo and Mighty Putty...

Must... Buy... Chomsky Books (Over 1,000,000 customers served!)

[Elwell]

Don't worry, soon no one will have any money to buy anything with anyway...

[Man Made God]

Don't worry, soon no one will have any money to buy anything with anyway...

They'll have plenty of money, they just won't be able to buy anything with it :^^;:

[~Faust~]

They'll have plenty of money, they just won't be able to buy anything with it :^^;:

But they can make good use of it like wallpaper or wrapping fresh fish.

[squidmonk3j]

capitalism and consumerism are symbiotic systems.

[Blahm]

chompy is kind of a commie .

[spaztastic]

hmmm, capitalism, socialism, consumerism and communism are all pretty much the same. The goal is to prevent you from being able to self support, be self sufficient, and be self reliant. Consumerism is a bi-product of capitalism, the give me more, more, more, have to have the newest best and most costly, attitude that has helped us get to our current economic state. Socialism is the attitude of let the government do it for you, you can't take care of yourself so well take care of you, just as long as you do what we say. Communism is the "people are the government", everyone works and gets the same thing, no matter how hard/little you work you all get the same thing.
Personally myself I am for distributivism , the harder you work the more you get, yet you still help your brothers and sister in need, you give what you can not what they tell you. It doesn't revolve around materialistic consumerism, nor government controlled socialism, or self proclaimed for the people communism. It is the perfect balance of governments, for the people by the people under God. now that I have probably pissed off half of CA, I love you guys no matter what political stance you may be.

[Dimension]

capitalism and consumerism are symbiotic systems

Maybe so, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that something isn't working properly with this relationship. When you have 10% of the world's population controlling 85% of the worlds wealth, something is wrong. Key word being controll. What do you think those people own. Banks, Oil, Multinational Corporations, Credit Card Companies. When you borrow money to buy a home, who do you borrow it from? The Rockefellers, the Waltons, the Rothschilds. My question is why? These people have shoved their way in between you and your homes, your education, your car, etc. They don't have to be there. Everyone now seems to blindly accept the fact that this is simply the way things are, and the way things are done. Everytime you borrow money, more and more streams upward into the pockets of the wealthy few and out of yours. You can work your ass off, day and night and still be in debt to these few people like everyone else till the day you die. Hard work does not pay off anymore, because the system is no longer set up to and has become corrupt.

Where do you think these families wealth originated from? They were lucky enough to be some of the first people to claim land in America (In most cases) and to strike oil. Then they started up banks and lent money out to the working class and soon everyone was in debt to them. Ever wonder why a black person has a net worth of 15 cents to every dollar a white man has now? Because slaves weren't allowed to own land when it was being claimed. They couldn't start oil companies or banks and there was no government support for them until a very very short time ago. The current state of affairs is always a byproduct of history, pre-dating the stone age. Go read "A Short History of Progress".

chompy is kind of a commie

Or just calling what he sees?

Personally myself I am for distributivism

That sounds like it would be a good system in a perfect world. How would work be valued? How would artists be valued? What would prevent the corruption of Government?

[Stoat]

Yeah. We need scary powerful mind control to make us want things. Without evildoers, we'd all cut the soles out of our shoes, climb a tree and learn to play the flute.

[spaztastic]

That sounds like it would be a good system in a perfect world. How would work be valued?
it would be valued upon the sweat of your brow. By what you produce. Your work ethic.

How would artists be valued?
By there work, Artist work very hard, that is plain to see. Art is always necessary. It lifts the mind to the heights of heaven, lightens the heart, and explains a story. Art has always been valued and always will be. The talents given to man by God will always be appreciated by Him.

What would prevent the corruption of Government?
Now that is the million dollar question isn't it. It would be based upon a moral system under oath to the highest power, God. When people are under an obligation to the highest authority, they tend to take things more seriously. All the civilizations that followed that precept prospered, until they went astray and abandoned their oaths. There would also be the obligation to the people to help protect them from corruption. The problem with the governments of today is that they are run by men, a very faulty creature, prone to failing, and taking those around them down with them when they fail. When you take God out of the picture, corruption happens. and unfortunately that is what has happened for a very long time in this country and those around us.

[Cthogua]

Yeah. We need scary powerful mind control to make us want things. Without evildoers, we'd all cut the soles out of our shoes, climb a tree and learn to play the flute.

Actually it doesn't have to be scary or powerful, all you have to do is associate your product with power, affluence, or sex. What is PR if not opinion control? Noam certainly has his good points and bad points, but that has nothing to do with whether or not advertising is a form of mind control. Not to mention how other forms of popular media control and shape peoples desires, expectations, and tastes. If you don't believe in the power of images to twist peoples emotions or direct peoples thoughts, what is art then?

[Chingwa]

Now that is the million dollar question isn't it. It would be based upon a moral system under oath to the highest power, God. When people are under an obligation to the highest authority, they tend to take things more seriously. All the civilizations that followed that precept prospered, until they went astray and abandoned their oaths. There would also be the obligation to the people to help protect them from corruption. The problem with the governments of today is that they are run by men, a very faulty creature, prone to failing, and taking those around them down with them when they fail. When you take God out of the picture, corruption happens. and unfortunately that is what has happened for a very long time in this country and those around us.
so what, you want a government based on God and his (her? it's?) values? Who's god? You'rs, mine? The great thing about this government is supposedly god is not involved... thus person A's arbitrary values do not determine person B's fate. would you seriously want it otherwise? what if your government was based on someon's idea of god but not necessarily yours? what if you didn't agree with those ideas and yet you were still forced to live under them and the laws that came out of it?

people seriously need to divorce god from the equation and take some personal responsibility for the human race. Believe whatever you want, but don't be so ignorant as to think your beliefs trump someone elses or that they will save humanity... and don't blame other people or society as a whole for the predicament of the world because they don't conform to your belief system either.


What would prevent the corruption of Government?
you know, I can't think of anything to adequately answer that question in a realistic way. Perhaps the dissolution of government.

If you have a government you will have corruption. if you have a group of people with power you will have oppression and corruption. the only question is to what degree of corruption will there be? and I can think of many ways to limit the corruption of government... set term limits for all government positions... guarantee 2nd amendment rights to all... dissolve Global Trade Organization... outlaw private funding and campaign contributions... etc etc.

[Man Made God]

It would be based upon a moral system under oath to the highest power, God. When people are under an obligation to the highest authority, they tend to take things more seriously. All the civilizations that followed that precept prospered, until they went astray and abandoned their oaths. There would also be the obligation to the people to help protect them from corruption. The problem with the governments of today is that they are run by men, a very faulty creature, prone to failing, and taking those around them down with them when they fail. When you take God out of the picture, corruption happens. and unfortunately that is what has happened for a very long time in this country and those around us.

Yeah, that's really dumb. Which god(s) are we even talking about? And there's the problem of all us non believers. Having invisible authority will only work on theists. Even then, your idea that a lack of god causes corruption is statistically inaccurate. Atheists are no more prone to corruption and crime than theists, probably less actually. The idea is just weak. You might need threats of eternal damnation to keep you in check, I'll go with compassion.

[Chingwa]

... oh and get rid of television.

[spaztastic]

Ok so I wasn't trying to force my views on any simply expressing my thoughts on the matter. That is my opinion that when you take an overriding authority that every one has to answer to out of the question, you set your self up for trouble.

Atheists are no more prone to corruption and crime than theists, probably less actually. The idea is just weak. You might need threats of eternal damnation to keep you in check, I'll go with compassion.. Theist or atheist aside corruption will always be from the person. if the person is corrupt then it doesn't matter, basing a government on a higher power than man, promotes the idea of having some one/thing to answer to other than yourself. How is that bad, it may not be what every one believes, but it's not forcing anything on any one, unlike many of the unlawful laws that this government has produced and forced upon a "free" people.
Now how does me being a Christian make me less compassionate pray tell?

[Chingwa]

That is my opinion that when you take an overriding authority that every one has to answer to out of the question, you set your self up for trouble.
But that's just it... everyone DOESN'T have to answer to it... you think everyone does regardless of whether they think they do because that is what you believe in. But someone who doesn't believe in what you do would not recognize that "authority" that you claim they should recognize.

As far as I know the only authority that everyone in this country has to answer to is the taxman... and that is only because, like organized crime, they threaten you with bodily harm if you don't pay up (oh, unless you're super-rich of course.)

[spaztastic]

I see your point as far as people who do not believe in any higher power than themselves. It doesn't change my opinion but I see your point, I will definitely have to give that one a little deeper thought.

Then again the problem I see with people who don't have any higher authority besides themselves, is that who then, well they answer to?

I am kept in check by my morals beliefs and moral standing, I understand that not every one does this, but I am also trying to understand why?

if one does not have morals based upon a being more powerful than oneself than how do they know they have good morals since they have nothing to judge it by?

and if they do not have such morals and standings what is keeping them from forcing their wills on others?

I just am having a hard time understanding this.

[Man Made God]

Ok so I wasn't trying to force my views on any simply expressing my thoughts on the matter. That is my opinion that when you take an overriding authority that every one has to answer to out of the question, you set your self up for trouble.

. Theist or atheist aside corruption will always be from the person. if the person is corrupt then it doesn't matter, basing a government on a higher power than man, promotes the idea of having some one/thing to answer to other than yourself. How is that bad, it may not be what every one believes, but it's not forcing anything on any one, unlike many of the unlawful laws that this government has produced and forced upon a "free" people.
Now how does me being a Christian make me less compassionate pray tell?

Well, as it happens, predominantly atheistic countries tend to have comparatively low crime rates. Removing god apparently does not cause corruption.

If a person does not believe in the authority figure, then the idea won't work.

Being a Christian does not make you less (or more) compassionate. What I said was that common decency and empathy, or compassion is all I need to justify my own moral behavior. The idea that you must be good to avoid punishment is a selfish one that is not necessary for truly moral people. That does not exclude people who believe in the existence of celestial authoritarianism, all I'm saying is that the idea is not necessary.

EDIT: Morality can be motivated by empathy. Thinking about how your actions affect others is a good way to determine what is right and wrong. One of the few things worth reading in the Bible, treat others the way you want to be treated. Morality can be justified by logic, if everyone was a good person, life would be better for everyone. How hard is that?

[Cthogua]

I see your point as far as people who do not believe in any higher power than themselves. It doesn't change my opinion but I see your point, I will definitely have to give that one a little deeper thought.

Then again the problem I see with people who don't have any higher authority besides themselves, is that who then, well they answer to?

I am kept in check by my morals beliefs and moral standing, I understand that not every one does this, but I am also trying to understand why?

if one does not have morals based upon a being more powerful than oneself than how do they know they have good morals since they have nothing to judge it by?

and if they do not have such morals and standings what is keeping them from forcing their wills on others?

I just am having a hard time understanding this.

What's wrong with simply holding yourself accountable for the things you do? I don't need to believe in a higher power to understand that I shouldn't steal someone's shit because I live in a society and in order for us to get along I have to respect his shit because I expect him to respect mine...it's called a social contract. It goes deeper than that though. Even pack animals don't randomly kill each other, because they know, on some level, that their survival is tied to the packs survival, and the death of one weakens the whole. This IMHO is the origin of all "morals."

Actually I'll go one more and say that I don't think there needs to be any sort of absolute authority in order for people to act "moral", this includes government/police. We're social animals and generally inclined to want to live together. This is not irreconcilable with the idea that everyone ultimately acts selfishly. It is out of self interest that we cooperate with each other and work in groups, because we understand that we can accomplish more together than as individuals and this benefits both the individual and the group.

[Smarty]

. Theist or atheist aside corruption will always be from the person. if the person is corrupt then it doesn't matter, basing a government on a higher power than man, promotes the idea of having some one/thing to answer to other than yourself. How is that bad, it may not be what every one believes, but it's not forcing anything on any one, unlike many of the unlawful laws that this government has produced and forced upon a "free" people.

I'm the very definition of a godless person (not christened, rasied by a multitude of faiths and left to make my own mind up), I'm also a pretty (more than most at least) uncorruptable, un materialistic guy by the standards set so far to me. I don't need a God to answer to, just a feeling of compassion for my fellow person. What comes around, goes around. Their are plenty of corrupt religious people just as their are unreligious. It goes further than fearing punishment from a higher form, punishment from each other should be enough. Unfortunately sometimes it isn't.

A goverment with a strong religious mindset isn't the best idea, infact its proven to be a fairly bad idea.

[spaztastic]

Thank you for clarifying that for me. While I do see your stand point, I in no way agree with them. I believe that God should be the reason we do good things, so as to please Him. I in no way am going to force this on any one, again I am simply explaining where I am coming from. After all we all have free will. what I find hard to understand again, is how can one not believe in any higher authority, a being that created the cosmos, that loves so much, that is love Himself, He created life so that he could share that love. How does one go through life not having God?
If there is no God that created life, then what did?
and I have heard just about every theory under the sun, and still they make no sense.
I understand the complexity in believing in God, and the simplicity in not.
Is there not something in the depths of your heart that yearns to find out? to find out if there is something greater than man?
How does one simply go through life with out those questions? or the urge to find the answers?
this is my pondering.

[alesoun]

Ah, phooey! Being poor makes for inventiveness and the Big Red Eye... choice is in the hands of the consumer. Free choice is in the hands of the individual. When did God get involved in this? He got pockets or something?

[spaztastic]

well He is God after all...I am pretty sure He could make some coinage...He did create the cosmos...
Oh He got involved cause I involved him :P

[Oden]

Is there not something in the depths of your heart that yearns to find out? to find out if there is something greater than man?
How does one simply go through life with out those questions? or the urge to find the answers?
this is my pondering.

Spaz, plenty of people experience the urge to ask deeper questions about life, the universe and everything, they just might find different answers than you. They might even ask different questions...

[spaztastic]

see I just didn't know if every one has those urges, to ask those questions. the how were the cosmos created, how does the universe work, how they hell does that remote work all those machines at once?
I know not every one agrees with me, I understand that. We all have free will, it's just nice to discuss these issues. Have a more meaningful talk then do these chicks boobs look right. I appreciate the deeper sides of people, I like to know what makes them tick, what makes them think that way. I like to figure people out, and religion and politics is a very good way to do so.

[Cthogua]

Thank you for clarifying that for me. While I do see your stand point, I in no way agree with them. I believe that God should be the reason we do good things, so as to please Him. I in no way am going to force this on any one, again I am simply explaining where I am coming from. After all we all have free will. what I find hard to understand again, is how can one not believe in any higher authority, a being that created the cosmos, that loves so much, that is love Himself, He created life so that he could share that love. How does one go through life not having God?
If there is no God that created life, then what did?
and I have heard just about every theory under the sun, and still they make no sense.
I understand the complexity in believing in God, and the simplicity in not.
Is there not something in the depths of your heart that yearns to find out? to find out if there is something greater than man?
How does one simply go through life with out those questions? or the urge to find the answers?
this is my pondering.

Just because I don't believe in god doesn't mean I go through life without all those questions you just asked. That my world is any less miraculous because I don't believe in a supernatural origin. To me, it is more miraculous that such a thing could appear out of natural processes, but we observe, and it does. This idea isn't new. The Atomists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomist) of the Greeks, 2500 years ago ventured forth the idea that lightning was not an angry god, but simply a phenomena that accompanied a storm, that things happen in the natural world for observable, explainable reasons, not magic.

I also never said I don't believe in anything of a higher order than us, and this also is wrong. We are just one level of an unimaginably complex universe. I just don't believe the christian mythology, nor do I feel that we answer to anything other than the results of our own actions. You say it is complex to believe in god and simple to not, but you're then confused by the mysteries of life without god... I would venture that believing in god is simple, because that's all you have to accept. I think there are complexities to both arguments and I'd really rather keep this from turning into the endless back and forth that most religion threads become. I just want to share with you my feelings about all those questions since you expressed an interest. I'm not asking you to believe, but maybe come closer to understanding, and not assume I have to believe the same thing as you to have a complete experience of the world.

[spaztastic]

Just because I don't believe in god doesn't mean I go through life without all those questions you just asked. That my world is any less miraculous because I don't believe in a supernatural origin. To me, it is more miraculous that such a thing could appear out of natural processes, but we observe, and it does. This idea isn't new. The Atomists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomist) of the Greeks, 2500 years ago ventured forth the idea that lightning was not an angry god, but simply a phenomena that accompanied a storm, that things happen in the natural world for observable, explainable reasons, not magic.

I also never said I don't believe in anything of a higher order than us, and this also is wrong. We are just one level of an unimaginably complex universe. I just don't believe the christian mythology, nor do I feel that we answer to anything other than the results of our own actions. You say it is complex to believe in god and simple to not, but you're then confused by the mysteries of life without god... I would venture that believing in god is simple, because that's all you have to accept. I think there are complexities to both arguments and I'd really rather keep this from turning into the endless back and forth that most religion threads become. I just want to share with you my feelings about all those questions since you expressed an interest. I'm not asking you to believe, but maybe come closer to understanding, and not assume I have to believe the same thing as you to have a complete experience of the world.
I understand what you mean.
And believing in God is just as hard as not. Trying to understand something that one cannot dissect, or look at under a microscope. That is very hard for me, yet still I believe. and Believing in God is not all I have to accept, it is a major part of it, but not all of it. I really want to thank you for giving me this little bit of insight into your self, I really do appreciate it.

[serhc]

i would like to thank grief again in post format

[PuppyKitten]

The points I wanted to make about morality were already covered by all you charming guys. :)

I am inclined to have less respect for the person who is only "moral" because some invisible dude in the sky might not invite them to his after-party, as opposed to the person who is "moral" because they have compassion naturally (not as a knee-jerk reaction to threat of punishment).

Of course, many religious people are naturally compassionate regardless of what their dogma tells them. But I hate to see anyone make generalized statements against us atheists ( especially when those same people are perfectly happy to be our friends, so we can't be THAT bad)

[Oden]

I know not every one agrees with me, I understand that. We all have free will, it's just nice to discuss these issues. Have a more meaningful talk then do these chicks boobs look right. I appreciate the deeper sides of people, I like to know what makes them tick, what makes them think that way. I like to figure people out, and religion and politics is a very good way to do so.

Nahh, I get ya...beliefs (completely bizarre or not) are fascinating, personal, and special things, you know? There are a lot of beautiful world-views out there, and they all have a place. You totally have a right to express your opinions.

I consider myself spiritual, but definitely an athiest at the same time (!??), and I love having these conversations...when they stay chill.
I've noticed it on this forum--as well as others--where if someone so much as mentions their concept of "God" (or not god) and how it applies to their life, there's a brigade of smug rationalists (:P) there within minutes to piss on it. On the other hand, I also don't appreciate having someone's God/belief system passing judgement on ME (but I usually just close the thread).



If you've got a few minutes, sit down and check this out, it's pretty interesting! http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/wade_davis_on_the_worldwide_web_of_belief_and_ritu al.html

[spaztastic]

The points I wanted to make about morality were already covered by all you charming guys. :)

I am inclined to have less respect for the person who is only "moral" because some invisible dude in the sky might not invite them to his after-party, as opposed to the person who is "moral" because they have compassion naturally (not as a knee-jerk reaction to threat of punishment).

Of course, many religious people are naturally compassionate regardless of what their dogma tells them. But I hate to see anyone make generalized statements against us atheists ( especially when those same people are perfectly happy to be our friends, so we can't be THAT bad)

Puppy you should know better,
I am simply expressing my beliefs, and asking why people believe certain things. One thing every human being can relate to is the urge to ask "why". It is an innate human function that can drive a person insane. I am not trying to make generalized comments, although they probably come across that way. Just trying to see what people think, how they work, that kinda thing.

Also am I not allowed to post my opinions? am I not allowed to question? am I not allowed to delve deep into the human psyche of my fellow artist? I may not agree with what alot of people have to say, but I love each of them as if they were my family, my closest friend, my blood brother!
and you know I love you bunches puppy <3 bunches and bunches and bunches, your the best you really are!

[DeadlyFreeze]

Is there a dvd of this video I would really like to buy it.

[Blahm]

I understand what you mean.
And believing in God is just as hard as not. Trying to understand something that one cannot dissect, or look at under a microscope. That is very hard for me, yet still I believe. and Believing in God is not all I have to accept, it is a major part of it, but not all of it. I really want to thank you for giving me this little bit of insight into your self, I really do appreciate it.

what god are you talking about? Are you Christian? IMO everyone belives in "god" elohim tetragramatton, etc because as soon as you drive off the road the first think you say is 'OH MY GOD'. Christianity is something all together different i belive. But i agree with you to some respect in having a sort of Gods law to govern the actions of man. For instance America was at first and untill sometime in the 1900's used Gods law as a basis for everything, or what was refered to as Common Law. We still have it actually. You dont need to be religious to understand this. God is just a term and doesnt mean that you must kneel and put your head on the block.

[PuppyKitten]

I know spaz, I wasn't criticizing you personally. I just wanted to add my views (just like you got to add yours) because the comments about "god" keeping government in check really didn't mesh with my own observations.

Governments that involve religion are often incredibly oppressive and corrupt, because they use religion as their justification for things, and the citizens are forced to feel like traitors to god if they don't support corrupt laws.

Regardless of whether you're a theist or not, you have to admit that "god" is a powerful concept, and it's terrifying when governments start using it to manipulate people.

[PuppyKitten]

IMO everyone belives in "god" elohim tetragramatton, etc becuase as soon as you drive off the road the first think you say is 'OH MY GOD'.



I also am fond of yelling "Holy crap!"

Does this prove I believe we were created by a sentient shit who will save me if I only use his title as a loud enough curse word?

-

[Dimension]

All the civilizations that followed that precept prospered, until they went astray and abandoned their oaths

Unfortunatley, that's not true. If you do your research, you'll find that most civilizations failed because of mismanagement of their resources and putting their faith in their god to guide them out of trouble. God will take care of us, there is no need to worry, etc. There is nothing wrong with a beleif in God, but looking to him to fix or take care of earthly matters is a mistake.

Now that is the million dollar question isn't it. It would be based upon a moral system under oath to the highest power, God. When people are under an obligation to the highest authority, they tend to take things more seriously.

Allah? Buddah? Jesus? Zeus?

Hitler answered to a higher authority. Islamic Extremists do as well. So does George Bush. Hell yeah they take things seriously! I don't mean to be rude, but what you're suggesting sounds like something from fairytale land. It's an extremely oversimplified solution for something extremely complex.

How does one simply go through life with out those questions? or the urge to find the answers?


I think everyone has asked these questions at some point. God is just not everyones answer.

[Oden]

I also am fond of yelling "Holy crap!"

Does this prove I believe we were created by a sentient shit who will save me if I only use his title as a loud enough curse word?

I usually say "holy FUCK", which is actually a belief system/diety I could get used to.

[spaztastic]

I know spaz, I wasn't criticizing you personally. I just wanted to add my views (just like you got to add yours) because the comments about "god" keeping government in check really didn't mesh with my own observations.

Governments that involve religion are often incredibly oppressive and corrupt, because they use religion as their justification for things, and the citizens are forced to feel like traitors to god if they don't support corrupt laws.

Regardless of whether you're a theist or not, you have to admit that "god" is a powerful concept, and it's terrifying when governments start using it to manipulate people.

I do agree with you about the corrupt government using God as a way to force immoral laws on people, but that doesn't mean that God should be done away with. It means that the people who run our government should have the fear of offending God, that should make them understand the obligation they have undertaken by running a country. They are the ones that should be bound by a higher power to do what is right, they are the "protectors" of the nation.
They should be held to the highest authority, and since they are the Highest man made authority, if not God then who will hold them accountable for their actions?

[PuppyKitten]

if not God then who will hold them accountable for their actions?

Ideally Spaz?


They should hold themselves accountable for their own actions.

But practically speaking? WE (as their citizens) should hold them accountable for their actions.

-

[Dimension]

if not God then who will hold them accountable for their actions?


Hopefully the people. They've done it before. Just look at the French Revolution. Governments are there to serve the people, not god.

[spaztastic]

Unfortunatley, that's not true. If you do your research, you'll find that most civilizations failed because of mismanagement of their resources and putting their faith in their god to guide them out of trouble. God will take care of us, there is no need to worry, etc. There is nothing wrong with a beleif in God, but looking to him to fix or take care of earthly matters is a mistake.


you are correct in the matter that it was mismanagement poor planning. However one should know that you have to put in some effort too, God is not just gonna take care of everything for you, We all have free will and knowledge He expects us to use it. But He is also there when we do need His help. I have many examples of my own life to show, but I won't bore you all with them.

Hitler answered to a higher authority. Islamic Extremists do as well. So does George Bush. Hell yeah they take things seriously! I don't mean to be rude, but what you're suggesting sounds like something from fairytale land. It's an extremely oversimplified solution for something extremely complex.
it's not a fairytale land idea, it's quite plausible, it just requires belief in a higher entity and proper knowledge and understanding of morals and moral obligations.

I think everyone has asked these questions at some point. God is just not everyones answer.
there again you are correct, I am simply trying to figure out my fellow artists to have a better understanding of the human desires and psyche.

[spaztastic]

Hopefully the people. They've done it before. Just look at the French Revolution. Governments are there to serve the people, not god.

But now look where the French government has gone since then, the revolution was a very bloody and unnecessary happening in history. A peaceful revolution could have done far better.

[spaztastic]

Ideally Spaz?


They should hold themselves accountable for their own actions.

But practically speaking? WE (as their citizens) should hold them accountable for their actions.

-

then when does one determine when the government should be held accountable, and if it is determined then when does one act upon this justly?

[spaztastic]

what god are you talking about? Are you Christian? IMO everyone belives in "god" elohim tetragramatton, etc because as soon as you drive off the road the first think you say is 'OH MY GOD'. Christianity is something all together different i belive. But i agree with you to some respect in having a sort of Gods law to govern the actions of man. For instance America was at first and untill sometime in the 1900's used Gods law as a basis for everything, or what was refered to as Common Law. We still have it actually. You dont need to be religious to understand this. God is just a term and doesnt mean that you must kneel and put your head on the block.

Yes I am a Christian.

because as soon as you drive off the road the first think you say is 'OH MY GOD'.
I normally say Oh Shit and then go "Thank you Lord for letting me live!"

[s.ketch]

corn is also known as maize.

[PuppyKitten]

then when does one determine when the government should be held accountable, and if it is determined then when does one act upon this justly?

In a democracy? Simple, don't vote for morons next time around. :P

In a tyrannical society? Unfortunately bloody coups are often the necessary course of action.

And only you can decide when YOU feel the government is out of line. But, if enough people agree with you, that's when the changes happen.

So I can't give you hard and fast rules for what's okay and what's not. Every culture is subject to varying ethics that fluctuate depending on the nation's stability.

[spaztastic]

corn is also known as maize.

indeed!

[spaztastic]

In a democracy? Simple, don't vote for morons next time around.
hey loaded question. :D

[Dimension]

it just requires belief in a higher entity and proper knowledge and understanding of morals and moral obligations.

That's exactly my point. The vast majority of the citizens and government would have to share the same basic religious foundations and moral and ethical views. Not even in any specific denomination in any given church can you find no religious disparity.

then when does one determine when the government should be held accountable, and if it is determined then when does one act upon this justly?

That's a huge question. Short answer, probably when people start feeling opressed by their government. That's usually when people revolt. Opression probably justifies it as well.

But now look where the French government has gone since then

I don't know a lot about French politics, but they're a free country with health care and have 35 hour work weeks. Better than living under Tyrant Monarchies.

A peaceful revolution could have done far better.

Maybe, I don't know and certainly you don't. If someone was trying to kill you (an extreme example), would you peacefully ask them not to, and try to explain why it's morally wrong, or would you grab that lead pipe sitting there and hit them over the head?

But He is also there when we do need His help

Monetarily? Emotionally?

[spaztastic]

I don't know a lot about French politics, but they're a free country with health care and have 35 hour work weeks. Better than living under Tyrant Monarchies.
A tyrant monarchy by today's standards maybe. The revolution was placed upon ignorant peasants, they were told to,nay forced, to follow the revolution by the revolutions leaders. They were duped into it, fed lies, and discarded after the revolution was over.

Maybe, I don't know and certainly you don't. If someone was trying to kill you (an extreme example), would you peacefully ask them not to, and try to explain why it's morally wrong, or would you grab that lead pipe sitting there and hit them over the head?


To say I for certain would not know is a presumption on your part. I know that peace is better than war, and if the people had brought forth their complaints the king would have heard them. And yes I would reason with a person trying to take my life, I am a martial artist, being such, you must use every peaceful means available to avoid unnecessary blood shed. If after trying to reason they still persist, your damn fricking right I would grab that rusty metal pipe and bash their heads in!!!!!

Monetarily? Emotionally?

Both, in case especially for me. their were times when I had no human emotional help available, and God helped me through those times. And there are still times when I have no money, yet some how the bills get paid on time and I am able to feed my family, so whether you say there is a God or not I know in my heart of hearts there is and He watches over me.

P.S
And no I don't do prostitution :P

[Dimension]

To say I for certain would not know is a presumption on your part

Do you have a time machine?

Monetarily? Emotionally?


The reason I asked this is simple. So God favaours you, he helps you out when you're down, but what about the little child in Africa that prays for food and starves to death? Maybe he's a liar and doesn't beleive? Maybe he's bad and doesn't deserve to live? Maybe Africans have little faith in God and that's why they have an AID's epedemic and extreme starvation.

Don't give me the it's all in God's plan and he works in mysterious ways trip either... Try to actually rationalize it. I said earlier that many civilizations have failed because of faith that God will solve their problems. You said obviously they have to use common sense and so on. But why? If God makes sure your bills are paid, what's to worry about. Where is the line drawn. How much do I have to work, and how much money can I rely on from God?

And yes I would reason with a person trying to take my life

I don't beleive you :)

[Peter Coene]

Maybe so, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that something isn't working properly with this relationship. When you have 10% of the world's population controlling 85% of the worlds wealth, something is wrong.
I'm getting kind of tired of this type of argument because it puts too much importance on the wealth.

Money only has value because we choose to recognize it, otherwise it would be pieces of paper with dead guys printed on them. Now using the internet we can buy things without even seeing money, its a number in a computer system. So people work their buns off to get "money" to buy food... without giving much thought to the fact that they are surrounded by pigions and squirrels which are probably more healthy for them then whatever the heck is in spam hotdogs and baloney anyways. We're using fake money and getting fake food, it just seems rather silly to me.

If it weren't for religious differences and inbreeding I'd say the Ammish are on the right track with a lot of their ideas.

[Dimension]

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at. I'll try to respond.

It doesn't matter whether or not you choose to recognize your currency, you don't have a choice if you want to live in a civilization. Without civilization which is the sole cause and support of agriculture, the earth can only support roughly 1 billion people. With todays infrastructure, there is NO alternative!

Why do you think so many people can only afford spam? Because of mortages and credit card debt. Not because food is so expensive. It's not rocket science. There is only so much wealth to go around. When you have so much wealth tied up at the top it will affect the lower and middle class. Obviously!

Wealth is power. Tell me it isn't when you have a mortgage denied, or when the threat of a bad credit rating looms over you.

Just an example of what wealth can accomplish. I think it was in the 60's street cars were catching on. The auto companies bought them up and crushed them. They opened up large shopping centres and built suburbs so people would have to drive everywhere. They changed the face of our continent. They changed North American Culture!

What's your alternative?

Also, no it's not silly that we don't eat pidgeons and squirrels, because they would be all gone in a day. BTW, last time I checked they still had green peppers and grapefruits at the supermarket.

[TASmith]

I have alot of respect for Chomsky, but I don't like how he's throwing around the word propaganda right and left. For me, propaganda is when someone convinces you that a bad idea is a good one, using a skewed perspective to show the bad idea in a favorable light.

Kids playing with toys doesn't seem to me an inherantly bad idea, provided they're not so expensive or toxic, and that they don't take too much time. So, if a kid sees an ad for a toy, that's an ad, not propaganda. If the toy in question is a potato gun, then that's propaganda. You can argue the merits of advertising, but it's still apples and oranges.

And foreigners moving to America because of idealized sitcoms... I mean, even Chomsky states the level of freedom Americans have, and don't you think that might also have something to do with it, along with increased opportunities? It was a weak argument.

[Smarty]

I believe that God should be the reason we do good things, so as to please Him.

To me this is the reason religion shouldnt be included in goverment. What if what god wants isn't always best for the greater society? what if your interpretation of god has different values than anothers? A pretty hot subject on this would be the popes standing on contraception.

I'm still open to the idea of a god i guess, just none of them have made sense to me yet, mainly because of all the out of date and manmade framework upon which it is set, kinda makes ,to me, most of it a little transparent. Maybe I'm just waiting for the right god? perhaps I'm closer to agnostic. I recognise a higher power could exist, just i don't feel one, and thus i dont see why we should answer to anyone but our own sense of ethics, concience and the rest of the people we've affected.

I do still yearn for more answers than whats out their, Like then ext perosn i want to unerstand things on a greater scale.

[Oden]

And foreigners moving to America because of idealized sitcoms... I mean, even Chomsky states the level of freedom Americans have, and don't you think that might also have something to do with it, along with increased opportunities? It was a weak argument.
Although the U.S. certainly doesn't have a monopoly on freedom...there are plenty of other countries that have the same level of "freedom", if not more. I know I feel plenty free up here in Canada, eh?
mebbe sitcoms are a way of differentiating the product (the product being freedom). :P

[Clochette]

"The problem with the governments of today is that they are run by men, a very faulty creature"

What the hell is wrong with you nihilist people?!
Where does man is faulty? Men are men. Capable of bad and good things but still awesome creature.

I prefer believe in men than in your strange ideas of God. Humanism rocks. You should try.
And if people were more trusting and respectful to humans being and persons, the world would prolly be a better place.
And this shit wouldn't have made me lose 30 minutes to read this thread.

[GhostValkyrie]

"Most of the major ills of the world have been caused by well-meaning people who ignored the principle of individual freedom, except as applied to themselves, and who were obsessed with fanatical zeal to improve the lot of mankind-in-the-mass through some pet formula of their own. The harm done by ordinary criminals, murderers, gangsters, and thieves is negligible in comparison with the agony inflicted upon human beings by the professional do-gooders, who attempt to set themselves up as gods on earth and who would ruthlessly force their views on all others- with the abiding assurance that the end justifies the means."

I worship freedom, if anything.
It never holds you back.
:D

[Smarty]

Clochette thanks. You know, as stupid as this sounds, I didn't think their was a name or definition of what I believe. Turns out its pretty damn close to humanism (wikipedia yay!).

[spaztastic]

Do you have a time machine?

Hmmm maybe I do:P
but still you don't know me! you don't know my life story, what I have studied, or where I have been. To say for a certainty that I do not know is an ASSUMPTION and a very ignorant one at that!

The reason I asked this is simple. So God favaours you, he helps you out when you're down, but what about the little child in Africa that prays for food and starves to death? Maybe he's a liar and doesn't beleive? Maybe he's bad and doesn't deserve to live? Maybe Africans have little faith in God and that's why they have an AID's epedemic and extreme starvation.
And yes those are all horrible things, God expects his children to help each other. So the next time yo see a starving child in Africa why don't you ask yourself what YOU can do to help. Or better yet why don't you help some of the homeless, abandoned, abused, and forgotten children here in America! Or are they not worthy of being thought of?

Don't give me the it's all in God's plan and he works in mysterious ways trip either... Try to actually rationalize it. I said earlier that many civilizations have failed because of faith that God will solve their problems. You said obviously they have to use common sense and so on. But why? If God makes sure your bills are paid, what's to worry about. Where is the line drawn. How much do I have to work, and how much money can I rely on from God?
hmmm don't give me the whole the cosmos were created from two forms of floating dusts that bounced together and there you have it BIG BANG! what the hell created the two big dust piles that "all life" came from? something had to of, or SOMEONE!
The civilizations that put there trust solely in God, by which I mean expecting him to do everything, were stupid yes, God expects you to take of your self to some extent. He did give people knowledge and free will.


I don't beleive you :)
well I am sorry but that's not the only thing you don't believe me on, so what is new in that department?
I don't believe in taking an innocent life, yes I will defend myself, but I would like to see the other person still live!

[spaztastic]

If it weren't for religious differences and inbreeding I'd say the Ammish are on the right track with a lot of their ideas.

shhhhh that's a secret!!!!!! I have to say the Amish make awesome food, but yes the inbreeding is disturbing, but here in KY all to often normal. Thank The Lord I am originally from TX!!!

[Smarty]

your view on the big bang falls flat on its face when the exact same thing you said about those dust clouds could be said about god. It's not quite that simple, and although the exact details havn't been worked out yet, the big bang is a better theory than most. Inform before making a mockery.

[spaztastic]

your view on the big bang falls flat on its face when the exact same thing you said about those dust clouds could be said about god. It's not quite that simple, and although the exact details havn't been worked out yet, the big bang is a better theory than most. Inform before making a mockery.

I should say the same to you.
I have 2 thousand and then some years of history to back mine up.
You talk about freedom of expressing opinions yet when some expresses an idea that goes against what you believe you jump down their throats, how is that humanistic? how is that morally acceptable. I have not condemned any atheist for their belief, yet being a Christian is an automatic condemnation for me. How is that fair pray tell? Or does the simple fact I am a Christian exclude me from being a participant in the freedom of Speech, from being able to reasonably talk with others and share view points, to have a more meaningful conversation?
Tell me does me being a Christian exclude me from these innate human rights?

[Clochette]

The end.

[Jason Rainville]

Just to be a really picky asshole:

The 'big bang' is really a misnomer, as it wasn't an explosion at all, it was the expansion and cooling of the universe. It wasn't (as far as we can tell) the 'beginning' of the universe as we can only trace the evidence back so far right now.

"dust" or "dirt" as our friend Kent Hovind says (a person you should never listen to, or stop listening to if this is where your ideas about the big bang come from) did not exist before or during the 'big bang.' Iron and carbon didn't even exist yet. Rather elementary particles came into existence (the 12 quarks), and only helium and hydrogen would exist in large clouds AFTER the cosmic inflation. It would only be after stars formed that they would create the other elements in their huge nuclear furnaces.

Also, life did not spring from the big bang, not even planets, stars or galaxies came directly from the big bang. There is quite the misunderstanding where people imagine planets and stars crammed into a singularity and then all of a sudden bursting forth. It would take millions of years for any real cosmic entities to form from the clouds left over from the initial expansion.

Stars came from fusion reactions with previously superdense clouds, planets formed from a star's accretion disc, life came from the process of abiogenesis and man eventually arose due to the process of evolution. Each process is separate and NONE of those things came directly from the big bang...

(if you want to learn more, here's potholer54's history of the universe made easy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg1fs6vp9Ok&feature=PlayList&p=DB23537556D7AADB&index=0&playnext=1))

[spaztastic]

Thank you Jason!!!
I actually did not know that, it is a very interesting take on that theory. so Thank you again for sharing that. :)

[tsujni]

I've watched both videos and I must say that Brad Pitt's character ( in the "12 Monkeys" ) gave a much better explanation! and quicker to the point.

[Black Spot]

"Most of the major ills of the world have been caused by well-meaning people who ignored the principle of individual freedom, except as applied to themselves, and who were obsessed with fanatical zeal to improve the lot of mankind-in-the-mass through some pet formula of their own.

This. Education and equal opportunity in the market must first happen before changing the system.

[TASmith]

"Although the U.S. certainly doesn't have a monopoly on freedom...there are plenty of other countries that have the same level of "freedom", if not more. I know I feel plenty free up here in Canada, eh?
mebbe sitcoms are a way of differentiating the product (the product being freedom)."

Absolutely true, and many other countries are drawing in immigrants, throughout Europe, North America, and Australia. If I had to guess, I'd say people choose the country to move to based on:

1.what's closest
2. what's cheapest to get to
3. where they have friends and relatives
4. economic benefits
...... and somewhere around 1,358th on the list, "I saw an episode of Three's Company once and want to live with Suzanne Summers and her friend".

[Dimension]

To say for a certainty that I do not know is an ASSUMPTION and a very ignorant one at that!


No, it's logical. To say with utmost certainty that you could predict alternative outcomes of history is just naive. I think everyone here would agree with me. I don't have to know anything about you or your background to know that.

hmmm don't give me the whole the cosmos were created from two forms of floating dusts that bounced together and there you have it BIG BANG!

Don't make assumptions about what I beleive. Even then, many Christians have no problem with this theory.

I don't believe in taking an innocent life, yes I will defend myself, but I would like to see the other person still live!

That's my point. There sometimes comes a time when peaceful solutions will not work with certain opressors or enemies, and unfortunately whether you like it or not, force is sometimes the only solution.

Or better yet why don't you help some of the homeless, abandoned, abused, and forgotten children here in America! Or are they not worthy of being thought of?

But you said it yoursef in so many words. God should help them like he helped you. They will somehow find money and support when they are the most desperate and everything should be fine. Maybe if I help a little God will pick up the slack? Where does this dogma end? Does God give me good parking spaces? Does he favour the wealthly? Jesus' message was simple. Beleive in him and have eternal life and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. He never said beleive in me and I will help you with your bills sometimes when you need it. That's all made up contemporary feel good bullshit and it's no good for anyone.
What scares me is when you preach flimsy beleif systems as imperical truths and want to see these beleifs as the foundation of a society. And I'm not talking about christianity, but about all of your feel goodery surrounding it. Not insight you gained by actually reading through the Bible, but things you may have picked up from you church's dogma, your parents or TV or whatever.

Or does the simple fact I am a Christian exclude me from being a participant in the freedom of Speech

I'm pretty sure Smarty is exercizing his freedom of speech, just as you are.

[serhc]

why don't we just say that both atheism and theism are much, much more complex and nuanced than either side gives credit for, and agree that no one here really knows what the hell they're talking about

[tsujni]

No, it's logical. To say with utmost certainty that you could predict alternative outcomes of history is just naive. I think everyone here would agree with me. I don't have to know anything about you or your background to know that. ***SNIP***

So in essence, if you've never experienced it, it must not exist? Is this correct?
Personally, I'm an agnostic hovering just above Nihilism. Nihilism as I see it as the only "logical" position for me at my current experiential position. Quite simply, I could be wrong as I haven't experienced everything.
And now to my point, just because you haven't experienced a revelation of whatever, doesn't necessitate others from.

[Dimension]

So in essence, if you've never experienced it, it must not exist? Is this correct?


No. What??? I think you missed the context here or something. I'm saying that Spaztastic isn't a psychic... Here's a question for Spaztastic. Please tell me exactly what would have happened had the French peasants protested peacefully, like Ghandi would have. I want all the details. Dates, who would have ruled, if the Monarchy would have suppressed them, everything!

[squidmonk3j]

any conversation that begins with noam chomsky and somehow trails off into kent hovind territory is seriously

weak.

[NoSeRider]

E25_RvAWrxo

[Oden]

1.what's closest
2. what's cheapest to get to
3. where they have friends and relatives
4. economic benefits
...... and somewhere around 1,358th on the list, "I saw an episode of Three's Company once and want to live with Suzanne Summers and her friend".

hahah, no doubt. I just thought it would be interesting to think of certain countries as oligopolists of freedom...but it's true that there are some genuine differences...more of a brain fart than anything. :)

[spaztastic]

E25_RvAWrxo

I do hope that's not aimed at me? I know my name refers to me being insane but I can assure you the doctors said I would outgrow it....eventually...

EDIT: I apologize if I sound a tad bitchy I have been without electricity or heat for the past three friggen days due to the ice storm that knocked out the entire towns power! not to mention I haven't had water for those 3 days either. So art withdrawals, heat withdrawals, and light withdrawals. I HATE WINTER!!!!

[spaztastic]

No. What??? I think you missed the context here or something. I'm saying that Spaztastic isn't a psychic... Here's a question for Spaztastic. Please tell me exactly what would have happened had the French peasants protested peacefully, like Ghandi would have. I want all the details. Dates, who would have ruled, if the Monarchy would have suppressed them, everything!

I don't have to be psychic to know that peace would have been a better alternative. I also know that war should always be the very last option not just when some one feels upset. The revolution was a turning point for the french in that the aristocrats had taken there toll on the peoples patients. However what the people did to over turn that was immoral and diabolical. Have you ever heard of the velvet revolution? the Slovaks did that when the communists overtook there country. They held peaceful protests. Not a drop of blood was shed, they got there freedom and now have a flourishing government. So yes I know for a certainty that the Revolution should have been handled differently, it should have been peaceful, led by Logic and a desire for a better government, not just base emotions and the urge to rid themselves of a monarchy!

[Peter Coene]

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at. I'll try to respond.

It doesn't matter whether or not you choose to recognize your currency, you don't have a choice if you want to live in a civilization. Without civilization which is the sole cause and support of agriculture, the earth can only support roughly 1 billion people. With todays infrastructure, there is NO alternative!
In one post you complain about the system in another you praise it. Civilization requires a means of trade, money provides it. However to tell someone you can't have that much money when others don't really defeats the purpose of using it in the 1st place. You live in a flawed world. Civilization will always result in someone on top, lack of civilization cuts back on population possibilities. Take your pick.

Why do you think so many people can only afford spam? Because of mortages and credit card debt. Not because food is so expensive. It's not rocket science. There is only so much wealth to go around. When you have so much wealth tied up at the top it will affect the lower and middle class. Obviously!
If you can afford a pellet gun, ammo, and learn to aim then you can afford squirrel, rabbit, dove, or pigeon stew. You can get one at Walmart for around $60 and the pellets for 5. That's less expensive than a trip to the grocery store and can save you 20 trips. Buy a bag of potatoes, they're cheap. Bury half in your back yard and wait. Doing that will get you the equivalent of 4 bags of potatoes. Not extremely healthy but good for taking care of hunger. Also they go great with the rabbit.

Let the top have their wealth, let anyone who wants to support the system support the system. I don't hate whats going on, I don't particularly like it either. It happens, I live my life.

Wealth is power. Tell me it isn't when you have a mortgage denied, or when the threat of a bad credit rating looms over you.
I have neither wealth nor debt, and plan to have neither. Well, a bit of wealth would be ok. But put me into a locked room with a rich guy, give him all of his money and give me a loaded gun. Who has power? What is his wealth worth?

Wealth is wealth, power is power. Both have their uses and one can be used to get the other. However they are not one and the same.

Just an example of what wealth can accomplish. I think it was in the 60's street cars were catching on. The auto companies bought them up and crushed them. They opened up large shopping centres and built suburbs so people would have to drive everywhere. They changed the face of our continent. They changed North American Culture!
Actually, the cities were already sprawled out like that because of the streetcars. Auto companies didn't build the shopping centers, and suburbs, those were built by people because they could be built that way with the ability to travel like that. Auto companies simply capitalized on that. It is true that the buying up of the streetcars was a shame but by that point they were hardly being used anyways. People didn't want them and so they were done away with.

What's your alternative?
Whats yours?

Also, no it's not silly that we don't eat pidgeons and squirrels, because they would be all gone in a day. BTW, last time I checked they still had green peppers and grapefruits at the supermarket.
If everyone did? maybe. But if a few smart people who didn't feel like bothering with grocery stores did?

And yeah, they still have produce in the supermarket. In fact it is more affordable than the junk food. Now watch who buys what. Go to your local supermarket and see how many people in tattered raggy clothes are buying fresh produce and non-processed meat products. Or better yet, go to your local farmers market where prices are even cheaper. Next go to KFC and see how many people there look like the types to be earning a living and supporting themselves with a bit of money to spare.

One fast food meal costs about the same as 3 meals you could prepare for yourself which will be unquestionably more healthy. However who is taking advantage of that? Ever wonder WHY they have more money?

No, this advice won't save the world. It won't remove the problems inerrant in civilization. However it can save people a lot of trouble for themselves if they'll pay attention to it.

[Dimension]

In one post you complain about the system in another you praise it.

I don't hate civilization and I'm not praising it either. I like a roof over my head, a fridge and stove, protection from crime etc. but like every system there are flaws. I certainly don't have any solutions either. All I know is that some of what I observe seems wrong and obviously has an effect on everyone.

However to tell someone you can't have that much money when others don't

I don't know what you're talking about :p others don't what?

lack of civilization cuts back on population possibilities

I'm not sure if you're saying this is a bad thing or not. All I'm saying that now there is no going back to hunting and individual farming on a large scale.

But put me into a locked room with a rich guy, give him all of his money and give me a loaded gun. Who has power? What is his wealth worth?

You're not in a locked room with a gun... Even if you were the guy would probably pay you to leave anyway.

However who is taking advantage of that? Ever wonder WHY they have more money?

Lowering your food expenses is great. Sure you save a $100 a month, but what is that when you're paying a $2000 mortage and credit card bills and student loans?
Something you should keep in mind if you want to go hunting squirres is your time. Time is money (In our world). If you even spend two hours hunting squirrels and lets generously say you get 12 squirrels and you say your time is worth $12 hour, each squirrel is basically costing you $2 a piece plus the expense of your gun and pellets and your time to prepare them. Why not just work for two hours and go to the supermarket. It might seem silly on the surface, but it's not.

Wealth is wealth, power is power

That's pretty simple logic. Let me ask you this. Can power lead to wealth?

[Elwell]

EDIT: I apologize if I sound a tad bitchy I have been without electricity or heat for the past three friggen days due to the ice storm that knocked out the entire towns power! not to mention I haven't had water for those 3 days either. So art withdrawals, heat withdrawals, and light withdrawals. I HATE WINTER!!!!
What did you do to piss God off?

[spaztastic]

What did you do to piss God off?

It must be the arguing :P ....