Why are there only three major types of Art programs? And which to choose?

[Pawkfox]

Fine art - Portraits, oils, life drawings, sculptures, abstract

Illustration - book covers, composition rather than technique, abstract.

Design - Clothes, furniture, interiors and exteriors, vehicles.

The 4th would be

Game art - 3D, 3D and some more 3D.

There are no schools that are Concept related in a digital fashion.
Not that I can find anyway.

I'd like to go to a fineart school with an illustration program without having to spend year 1-2 reading about old dead artists and rather spend it on drawing, digitally. Not traditionally (its a preference, I was good at oils in highschool but meh). Seems most schools I find spend A LOT of time just reading up on history. This is completely irrelevant to my interest. I spent all of highschool doing this, I just don't care. It doesn't make me a better artist.
Drawing digitally is just so much more fun than traditionally and if you get a job, you'll be working digitally anyway. Fine art is good for color theory, anatomy etc. The Science of art.
Illustration is good for the actual presentation of an image, composition and design of things.

[I'm just thinking out loud right now.]

Personally I think schools aren't good for teaching but rather good for making friends and develop socially. AND! They're a great place to be while the world spirals into itself^3 and getting a job cleaning urinals is as tough as getting money on art.
So, therefor going to school for a few years while the world either dies or fixes itself is a good way to invest my time. But where to go? I want to make digital art for games, film and all that. But I HAaaaaaaaaaaate 3D. There is nothing fun in making 3D. I know how, but it's sloppy because I just cant bring myself to do it properly. But I love painting!

I'm in sweden right now, and I just hate it here. So I was thinking of studying abroad. Japan was my first thought but I don't know japanese so no school would take me.

Is there any school in your knowledge that educates in 2D game art and doesn't cost you your soul?
How about a good art school that teaches not only portraits or anatomy but ALL aspects of painting. (This also seems difficult to find, at least in my country. It's always this or that, not both.)

[Maxine Schacker]

If you are ready to work very hard, take a look at Max the Mutt in Toronto. Since I'm the Director, it's strictly against protocol for me to say anything more than that I think it may suit you. Check the website and the threads on this forum (one shows some year one and two work done by concept Art students). If you want more information, feel free to leave a "reply" on the Max the Mutt thread.

Happy Holidays!

[RyerOrdStar]

I don't think you really know what's involved in an Illustration program..have you done any research on it? It's not really abstract and there's definitely more options than book covers...

[WickedEdges]

In order to be good digitally, you have to learn to be traditionally. Most schools are built this way, so you'll have to do digital in your own time. Foundations are foundations though.

[Elwell]

Seems most schools I find spend A LOT of time just reading up on history. This is completely irrelevant to my interest. I spent all of highschool doing this, I just don't care. It doesn't make me a better artist.
This statement is symptomatic of why your art isn't where it could be, and may well never be.

[ikken]

2 Pawkfox
the stuff you have in portfolio already is not bad technically = you've pretty much fine with digital media on yourself;
don't underestimate the traditional mediums - a lot of artists work with the stuff they're most comfortable with, and generally it's not about going digital or traditional, but about producing high-quality artwork; there're lots of successful artists who still prefer pencils and paints over wacom and screen; needless to say that working with real brush will give you a very clear idea of how physics and other properties of paint act together, and how to transfer all that knowledge into digital to improve your painting side. (and you will feel limited with painter and photoshop at that point, hahaha -just kidding)
make some research and find a school with a good feedback and really good student work, don't feel flattered by marketing sugar, melting in some of the threads here - go for reputation and student work that does impress you.
Dig Britain, dig the EU in general.

[Pawkfox]

This statement is symptomatic of why your art isn't where it could be, and may well never be.

So you believe that simply knowing of a person who was born 1853 march 30
in zudent Netherlands And made impressionistic paintings would make people better artists? To be honest. Classic art is terrible.
They may have revolutionized and invented whatever styles we know of today. This is common knowledge, Knowing what they ate for breakfast week 32 of year 18xx and who their wife was just isn't interesting or relevant for that matter.
It's history. Know it's there but don't obsess with it.

Btw- You seem good at criticizing people, but you don't really give any reason or explanation to why or how they could "change" into being the way you think they should.
It's easy to criticize, its hard to give good advice. Advice should always be backed by a reasonable explanation/motivation.

2 Pawkfox
the stuff you have in portfolio already is not bad technically = you've pretty much fine with digital media on yourself;
don't underestimate the traditional mediums - a lot of artists work with the stuff they're most comfortable with, and generally it's not about going digital or traditional, but about producing high-quality artwork; there're lots of successful artists who still prefer pencils and paints over wacom and screen; needless to say that working with real brush will give you a very clear idea of how physics and other properties of paint act together, and how to transfer all that knowledge into digital to improve your painting side. (and you will feel limited with painter and photoshop at that point, hahaha -just kidding)
make some research and find a school with a good feedback and really good student work, don't feel flattered by marketing sugar, melting in some of the threads here - go for reputation and student work that does impress you.
Dig Britain, dig the EU in general.

Thank you. It's not bad 'technically' ..? I'm proud over some of it but apparently It's not good enough considering my situation.

My traditional history is pretty much since I was 6years old up to my graduation from highschool. Starting with color pencils and chalk.
Later, acrylic and oils, And water color. I have a basic understanding of these mediums. And working outside of your comfort zone is good but consider this. I'm broke, about to be homeless and no space in my room anywhere to use these mediums. And they're not cheap.

If I was to look at schools with student galleries that interested me then there wouldn't be a school for me to go to. There are many schools that have good reputation.
Dig the uk? dig eu in general?
EU > everyone. Can't find any related art schools in the UK though.
Uk was my second choice but google didn't show me any interesting schools.
Now canada is next on my list.

[Maxine Schacker]

Hey guys, Pawkfox says at the end of his statement that he's looking for a school that teaches all aspects of painting! I assume he's talking about painting with brushes and oil paint. I took his statements before that with a grain of salt- frustration at programs that are more about writing papers than studio work, programs that aren't teaching the skills he's looking for. Pawkfox, was I right?

PS I do disagree with you about looking at, and copying, the work of great artists. That's part of the learning process and was for generations. Art history from a painter's point of view is very valuable.

[ikken]

Thank you. It's not bad 'technically' ..? I'm proud over some of it but apparently It's not good enough considering my situation.

My traditional history is pretty much since I was 6years old up to my graduation from highschool. Starting with color pencils and chalk.
Later, acrylic and oils, And water color. I have a basic understanding of these mediums. And working outside of your comfort zone is good but consider this. I'm broke, about to be homeless and no space in my room anywhere to use these mediums. And they're not cheap.

If I was to look at schools with student galleries that interested me then there wouldn't be a school for me to go to. There are many schools that have good reputation.
Dig the uk? dig eu in general?
EU > everyone. Can't find any related art schools in the UK though.
Uk was my second choice but google didn't show me any interesting schools.
Now canada is next on my list.
I can only say I strongly disagree with your approach to art history, it's not about what Matisse had for breakfast the exact day of that year, it's more about environment, that influenced the artists, and all sorts of movements, happening within the society, but ok, you have a point;
anyway, it's not even google who didn't give you the expected results ( St. Martins, oh -__-) - this forum has plenty of threads about European education -and most of them are really helpful.
Just to mention that living and studying in Canada will be more expensive than living in EU (however, if you work part time you'll be paid better too);
you have to pay increased tuition rates (unless they're the same for all the students, like they are in private schools), and you still have to pay for all sorts of art supplies/art books -generally they're not included in the tuition rates; it may come as high as $ 1,5 - 2 k/year to provide all the necessary equipment; also, the housing - I was kinda surprised with Vancouver rental market, in a bad way. Toronto is pretty much the same, Montreal is cheaper, but you'll better be bilingual in Quebec.
So, it could be not the best choice, but it also depends on your definition of broke and almost homeless.

[Maxine Schacker]

Tuition is not the same for all students in private schools. It is generally, at least in Canada, much higher for US and international students (Vancouver Film School, and Van Arts for example). You need to short list the schools you're interested in and then check them out one by one.

As far as art history is concerned, great art is great because it still speaks to us sometimes centuries later. Artists have always learned partly by copying the masters. Looking at work from the past from an artist's point of view, which includes how a piece was conceived and executed, broadens our awareness of our own possible approaches to drawing and/or painting.


PS Pawkfox, why not post some of your drawings an paintings done off the computer? It would give us all a better idea of your level and what to suggest to you.

[Pawkfox]

Maxine speaks the truth!

Maxine - yes you were right. On both parts.

ikken - I mean Literally, broke and almost homeless. As in, TO BE homeless. Homelessness is imminent. Its certain in the near future.
I am by definition a 'starving artist'.

I agree on the money part.. I'll be paying off those loans for the rest of my life if I decide to study in canada..
I'd like to visit france but I don't know french so I'm screwed there too :P

The ultimate thing for me would be internship at a real studio. But as you all know, getting a job is hard as hell. The same for internships.

[Flake]

Edit: never mind.

[Pawkfox]

Despite all these trolls, insults and antagonists. I remain true to myself and my thoughts.

At least I'm not afraid to speak my mind or what I believe rather than fail upwards by sucking up to the big fish. And throw meaningless words to those who do not agree.

But by all means, I'm not trying to defend myself. You have said your opinion and I doubt you fully understood what I said.

The old masters could teach us all something.
So could most dead people.
But we cannot dwell in the past forever. We have to keep up with technology and fads. If you want to be a traditional painter painting classic art, go learn everything you can about the old masters. If you want to paint up to date and continue the evolution of todays art. Keep up with the latest artists and what makes them successful. but of course keep in mind what has been done.
I guess I'm trying to say. Learn what you have to in order to get where you want to be. But don't let anyone tell you what to do. Walk your own path.

[ikken]

Tuition is not the same for all students in private schools. It is generally, at least in Canada, much higher for US and international students (Vancouver Film School, and Van Arts for example). You need to short list the schools you're interested in and then check them out one by one.
Vanarts, Game art and design program
Canadians & Permanent Residents . . . $26,750 CDN
US & International . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $28,750 CDN
much higher, needless to say.

VFS, Game art and design program
$46,750 - international
$29,750 - canadian
ok, that's a 30 % difference;

compared to, say, Emily Carr, full-time programs:
Domestic Tuition
CAN $3,587.40 for 30 credits
International Tuition
CAN $11,312.10 for 30 credits (all programs)
roughly 300 % difference, multiplied by 3-4 years of program duration;
the same with Sheridan, I'm lazy to doublecheck but it's about 8 k and 20 k / year respectively;
ikken[/B] - I mean Literally, broke and almost homeless. As in, TO BE homeless. Homelessness is imminent. Its certain in the near future.
I am by definition a 'starving artist'.

Well, I don't know to suggest than - I'm not sure if you can get a loan to study fulltime in a major institution - in Canada, you can get a post-graduate experience visa if you're attending a government-supported institution,
and for example, a 4 years course at OCAD, ECIAD, Sheridan, whatever will provide you with 4 year work permit; artists do earn quite a lot money here (compared to Europe, and sometimes the US - if you're talented and have a lilttle bit of luck.)
How old are you, btw?
..
...
....
.......
Your latest statement is just WOW.
I wonder who's trolling - in your opinion - here.

[Pawkfox]

How old are you, btw?
..
...
....
.......
Your latest statement is just WOW.
I wonder who's trolling - in your opinion - here.

Thank you! I do take some pride in my ability to make people drop their jaws.
But hey, I'm only human.
Nice of you to look up those numbers as well.

I can in fact get loans as long as I am studying. For about 5more years!
Canada though seems to be impossible. The tuitions for studying in north america are just too expensive. I'd have a minimum of 70 000 CAD in debt.
Just an estimate.

So UK seems nice..

How is my age of any relevancy?
If I say I am young. I will be judged as an immature over confident brat.
If I am middle age to old. I will be judged as simply stupid.
All this based on; I don't think, act, behave like you do or how you think someone should. Not YOU personally (I simply don't know), But by Guru's there are a whole lot of people here who do. Consequently I judge them for not thinking for themselves. Some at least. I tend to keep an open mind but when faced with the all to common "I know what's best" attitude I lose my grip.

If you haven't figured it out by now. I'm 19, turning 20 in april.

[ikken]

I assume you're already considered immature, but that's just me.
The point is you're going to work in CG/videogame industry;
the average age (I'm talking about spherical entree-level guy in vacuum, not 0,1 % of those skilled 16 years old lead-artists) for people who go there is 23-24 years, usually a year -two after they graduate with bachelors (if they do earn it, I can't say about self-taught ones; from my experience 1 year of self teaching = 4 months of the same stuff, given academically); roughly estimated, you could spend 4 years to get your degree and make your digital portfolio of doom parallel with the school;
70 k CAD (if I understand what you mean = like, you can afford a loan of 70 k.) is enough to study in Emily Carr, for example (arguably a right place for people like you, TONNS of high self-esteemed createeve arteests with their opeenions on art history and veesion of art in general, you'd love and be loved there, not to mention really awesome facilities); do the maths youself, you can check housing prices on craigslist, I'd consider anything between 600 - 700 CAD $/month for a room reasonable, other variants most certainly will suck; -> 650 * 12 * 4, add tuition price, add misc. expenses;
if you manage to work part-time since year two and later, you'll be fine.

And seriously, I'd think twice inb4 calling someone here a troll
I have a lot of resprect for mature people who find time to reply to a generic "I DUNNO WHAT TO DO SHOOT ME WITH MAGICAL ADVICE LAZOR " thread - try to see at least something outside your box. They do it for good. oh, whatever.

[Pawkfox]

You're absolutely right! Why the hell do I come to this place for advice? I don't need it! I already know what I want. There is no point in listening to other peoples opinions unless its purely constructive.

As Bobby Chiu and many others say "Believe in your self and everything will work out" Now, I don't believe in magic. But hey. It might just work.

Thank you ikken, you have shed light upon my sad being.
My goal is not to be loved. My goal is to be a free spirit and a painter.
And your mathematical insights were very helpful too.

UP UP AND AWAY!

oh, whatever.

[ikken]

Do you realize that you're going to work in a very small, teamwork based industry, where lots of people will exceed you in art-skills without having even a half of that arteestic spirit of yours, or at least, not exposing it THAT obviously?
This thread already has a slight smell of thy little black book, that art-directors here keep under the pillow,.with names of the most free-spirited ones.
Not that I'm kidding right now, lol.

[•Lindsay•]

You're absolutely right! Why the hell do I come to this place for advice? I don't need it! I already know what I want. There is no point in listening to other peoples opinions unless its purely constructive.You haven't listened to anyone's advice in this thread unless you already agreed with them.

[kennygeeze]

Illustration - book covers, composition rather than technique, abstract.

Illustration is good for the actual presentation of an image, composition and design of things.



Personally I think schools aren't good for teaching but rather good for making friends and develop socially.

Is there any school in your knowledge that educates in 2D game art and doesn't cost you your soul?
How about a good art school that teaches not only portraits or anatomy but ALL aspects of painting. (This also seems difficult to find, at least in my country. It's always this or that, not both.)

Pawkfox,
Illustration school teaches a lot more than just book covers. There's are lots of markets for illustration that you may not even know about yet.... and perhaps might even be interested in.

Personally I think schools aren't good for teaching but --- Try not attend school with that mind-set. You won't learn much.

As for your question about art for games and films... illustration school gave me the fundamentals I needed to get hired at a film studio. I now have a job as a concept artist and matte painter for feature films.

I don't know where you get "illustration school teaches composition rather than technique" -- We were all taught to paint.

[evildisco]

Wow...just wow.

Bobby Chiu might have said that, but humility goes a long way. Unthrottle your rocket nozzle, yes you might be ahead of the curve for your age, but you're not as good as you think you are.
The advice you were given was very solid, now if you prefer calling people trolls because the advice does not coincide with YOUR opinion. Then might as well leave because this is not the purpose of this particular place.

As for art history, I don't think you had extensive education in it, hell I was schooled in the most ridiculously classical country in Europe and I got a shit art history education. You need to know precedents, because quite frankly nothing in the art world nowadays is new, it comes from somewhere else in the past and it has been done before and it is extremely important to know where artists are coming from, how they came to the conclusions they have in their work and what circumstances were they working in.

Sadly your age says it all, "I'm 20, I'm not a teen anymore, I know stuff now.LALALALALA not going to listen."


Seriously, believe in yourself but have some humble pie too.

[ikken]

Seriously, believe in yourself but have some humble pie too.
It will make his further replies less hilarious,
I don't think that this living master, the digital Leonardo of Norde, needs any humbleness.

[Demonique768]

Where is Bobby Chiu anyways? I read his name alot in this thread, does he have any works on here? My life drawing class is always beside his life drawing class I can hear him yet Ive never seen him. The mysterious Bobby Chiu

[/Anders]

This thread is pretty epic, right here.
It also points out why so many people spend so long beating their heads into a wall wondering why they can't render like Andrew Jones, Craig Mullins, or any other contemporary artists, when they are only looking at Andrew Jones and Craig Mullins. I doubt any of the artists that are in the limelight right now have not studied the great masters who came before them, or only focus on playing MMOs and then attempting to draw fantasy. The very concept that someone can be a good artist while only looking at art is outright silly.

What's worse is that with the attitude that the OP has about already knowing what is best for himself serves as a solid example of why homelessness is imminent and he/she is practically broke. You obviously know what is working out best for you, so why don't you keep doing it. Instead of coming here and begging artists who are actually working such as Elwell to tap you on the head with their magical paintbrush of awesome, so that you can up and artist! without putting in neither thought nor effort. (P.S if you want that, look at the art of most 3 year olds, it will "magically" make you better... until they grow up and put more work and humility out there than you.)

oh yeah, and:

"So you believe that simply knowing of a person who was born 1853 march 30
in zudent Netherlands And made impressionistic paintings would make people better artists? To be honest. Classic art is terrible.
They may have revolutionized and invented whatever styles we know of today. This is common knowledge, Knowing what they ate for breakfast week 32 of year 18xx and who their wife was just isn't interesting or relevant for that matter.
It's history. Know it's there but don't obsess with it."

Yes, it is important and relevant to art, and if you can't see why or how, you clearly need to do yourself a favor: drop the 19-syndrome, and start back at the basics, because clearly you missed something.

[GatoGirl12345]

To love art is to love practically all aspects of art...which includes Art History. The reason why I didn't like my Art History class as much because they they tested the students on art slides and mostly memorization like learning the exact date give or take 10 yrs was like one of the most important thing in the class and there is surely more than that in Art History. (In addition, I never had any art history class to begin with so I always had a poor mind set on what it could very well be.) However, I maybe having a second chance in Art History in these coming years anyways.

However, to be truly passionate is to never give up when things become difficult and wanting to learn everything there is about the subject your passionate about...every little minuscule detail.

Personally I think schools aren't good for teaching... --- Try not attend school with that mind-set. You won't learn much. Totally agree with this statement yet it is a pretty damn common mindset these days. The thing is you need to know foundations of all the subjects cause every subject overlaps one another. Take cuisine (it is part of the arts) for example. You need foundations for chemistry and art for that major.