Some questions on oil paintings

[Hexism]

EDIT:scratch these questions . new questions below :D


Ok first of all , I'm studying Graphic design in a VERY*cough*bad college. We're only going to start to learn oil painting next week but I already have to choose the technique to be used on our final oil painting assignment which is due in 3 months and confirm on the technique by tomorrow.After confirmation , there is no changing techniques.

So what I want to know is:
Which technique is the most n00b-friendly ? I can't test and see for myself because we have to choose the technique before even learning the basics and details of each of it.

What kind of brushes would I need ? The painting is around A1 size ( I don't know whats the size in inches :/ )

Most of my classmates are going with Impasto because it seems to be the easiest one to work with , produce a decent looking result and allows you to repair mistakes easily. Is this true ? What about other techniques?


Damn having a (somewhat) narrow-minded lecturer is a pain , this is a guy who dismisses Photoshop as a drawing/painting tool "PHOTOSHOP IS FOR PHOTO MANIPULATIONS AND EFX ONLY !!!111 USE PAINTERZ !"







Will be painted on canvas btw


Thanks

[Craig D]

If this is a multiple choice exam I'd like to know what my choices are.

[Hexism]

From what I now so far:
Impasto
Glazing
Scrumbling
Ala Prima
Hard edge(?)

is this all there is ? I'm not so sure because I haven't went to my college for 2 weeks (chicken pox) and when I tried asking around about this , everyone were clueless because , well , our lecturer is .... problematic.

[Idiot Apathy]

Better question is; why are you in a "very bad" college?

[Hexism]

$$$$$

[Craig D]

Without getting into how ridiculous this sounds;
pick whatever your friends pick.
At least then you're all in it together.

[DavePalumbo]

but hey, if you do alla prima, then you get to do a 3 month project in one single sitting

the best answer is probably to do whichever has an end result that most appeals to you. Sure, on a first try it's not likely to turn out just the way you'd like, but you at least might learn something from it

[Hexism]

Ala Prima is Wet-on-wet right ? thats the only thing I know about it , it seems to produce really nice looking results but is it easy to learn ? I don't have any experience with oil paint. With Ala Prima , you can't really repair mistakes and have to finish it in one go ? How about Impasto ? How long does it take to dry and how many layers before you get a decent result? I never really liked how it looks but if this is the easiest , I'd have to go with impasto.






*sigh*picking the technique without even trying it out first is a PAIN !



+ My PC died a few minutes ago , I think its the PSU. + I have to finish 3 Assignments by today using my ancient pc which takes 438748923789472379 minutes to load up illustrator.Life is really , really good.

[DSillustration]

Grisaille

http://z.about.com/d/arthistory/1/0/b/S/mfp_mma_01.jpg

[DavePalumbo]

alla prima traditionally means from life and in a single sitting (if I remember correctly). I hear people use it just to mean single session though, wet onto wet as you put it, but not necessarily from life. Look at it this way, you can do alot of single session paintings in three months and then hand in the best one.

[Hexism]

Here's the thing , We can only pick one thing to draw , all my other classmates went for this trip organized by that lecturer a week back , I couldn't go with them,so I'm going on another trip to photograph my subjects. So in the trip they had to take pictures of Figures+Industry-ish background so thats pretty much the theme for the whole class. We could only pick ONE photo and confirm on it so the final project will be based on that one photo , so I can only make a lot of paintings of that one particular photo.


I see Ala prima looks all soft-ish but is there a technique I could use for a more hard edged/painterly look ?


And yeah Ala Prima is what I would like to do based on the samples of it I see on the net but... all of that is done by professionals , I have 0 experience with Oils , thats what I'm worried about. Is ala prima noob-student-friendly ?

[dcorc]

From what I now so far:
Impasto
Glazing
Scrumbling
Ala Prima
Hard edge(?)

is this all there is ? I'm not so sure because I haven't went to my college for 2 weeks (chicken pox) and when I tried asking around about this , everyone were clueless because , well , our lecturer is .... problematic.

It sounds very much as though your lecturer is a clueless arse. (Let me guess, you're in the UK - sounds like typical British art-school bollocks)

Hard edge is a technique better suited to acrylic than to oils.

Impasto (paint thickly applied, with texture)
Glazing (transparent paint applied as a thin layer)
Scumbling (no "r") (opaque paint, but applied as a sufficiently thin layer to allow the previous layer to partly show through)

are not "techniques" in which you do a whole painting - they are manipulations that are used in particular passages (that is, areas) of a painting. You could, in principle, handle an entire painting thus, but they are typically things that are all used together in different bits of the same painting.

Impasto, because the paint is thick, tends to be slow-drying (you can get into various ways to speed up the paint-drying somewhat, but I'd not recommend this, esp if your lecturer doesn't know his arse from his elbow).

Alla Prima is actually quite a difficult technique, as its wet-in-wet all in one sitting - and in inexperienced hands, is prone to produce dauby, muddy and/or garish results. Dave Palumbo does makes a good point that you could knock off lots of paintings, get in the practice that way, and then hand in the best.

Grisaille is a good suggestion, as you get to practice your values that way.

I'd suggest you tell the clown you want to do direct painting, in layers - the idea is that you build the painting in a few passes, as thin layers (so each layer dries in a couple of days, and can be worked on top of), working in colour, going from a big block-in of general forms, towards increasing refinement and detail as several passes. Each pass modifies, corrects, and refines what's already there (and if work in one session goes wrong, you can easily gently wipe it off and get back to the result of the previous session again).

Dave

[Flake]

Which technique is the most n00b-friendly ?
Have you painted before? Which medium and technique did you prefer?

Impasto, Glazing, Scumbling,Ala Prima, Hard edge(?)
You realise it wouldn't be uncommon to use glazing, scumbling, wet into wet and impasto on any single painting, right?
They're not so much schools of painting, more just varied ways of brushing coloured mud onto a surface.

How about Impasto ? How long does it take to dry and how many layers before you get a decent result?
Depends entirely on pigments used, mediums/driers and how thick the paint is. Could be weeks or a year.

This does indeed sound like a really daft assignment.

[J Wilson]

In my opinion dcorc has it right. In a single painting I'd probably use multiple techniques to get the results I want. Why limit yourself to just one technique for a given painting. Hell, why would the instructor limit you to one technique and one painting? I'd expect him to want you to be familiar with all of them.

Whatever you are paying for this class, it's too much.

[dose]

Scumbling (no "r")

Correct- but I say there really should be a technique called "scrumbling".

[Black Spot]

I'd go for glazing and treat it like a CG picture - draw the main bits, block it in and then glaze until it's right.

Sounds a right rum way of doing things as has been said before, you can use all the techniques to get what you want. You'll be needing hogs hair and sable brushes of various widths and maybe a feather brush. A palette knife is good for impasto. Good luck.

[Hyskoa]

Seems like exactly the school I am in.
Few tips to help you out:
1) IF (gigantic if) they don't immediately dislike anything figurative, you will be forced to attach meaning and some sort of storyline to your work otherwise they will call it cliché/kitsch/... anything they can think of to utter their dismay.

2) If they understand the necessity of drawing (and they usually don't), ask if you can do a few cast/still life studies, to train yourself.
They will probably try to stop you from doing this by telling you it's not modern enough.
And hold off on the oil painting part until you have some experience with the black and white that a simple charcoal can offer.

If they don't, start with Ivory black/titanium white and say you're making studies/grisailles of the object. And make up some artsy fartsy bullshit reasoning behind it.
"I want to see if color is a necessity to evoke emotion into a painting."
"Color would distract from my topic."
"I'm going for a high black/white contrast to research emotive painting."

Any of these bullshit reasons have been tested and they seem to work.
They will sometimes even applaud your effort.

After you've done a few months of alla prima black/white's, carefully add 2 more colors.
If you're doing humans, add yellow ochre and cadmium red for example.

Always keep a limited palette.

And the most important thing will always be that you're able to explain everything.
So talk to the teachers during class, get their opinions and more importantly what they consider art. Then make some remarks on how their opinions are "interesting" and incorporate some minor changes into your work to suit their needs.

Should get you a passing grade while practising some traditional art.

[Jason Ross]

Wipe away method is what i like to use. It's Grisaille but you work transparently. It kinda gets rid of the "Ugly Painting" stage.

[PMorin]

In an art school or working an illustration job ;basically anything with a deadline using oils,
I say you should go with a technique that will be fast drying and will be relatively easy for you to manipulate the paint. Alla Prima can mean one layer of paint over another done in one session or with strokes of paint side by side (a la paint by numbers). glazing is rather involved for the new painter so i would wait for that .I use a combination of blocking in the larger masses (an all over approach )and then adding details over top the paint.I use oderless paint thinner (turpenoid ,white spirits) to thin the paint and this helps it to dry quickly and make the paint easier to manipulate.You can add an alkyd medium such as Liquin or other to this thinner in varying amounts in order to retain or boost gloss .Liquin also speeds drying but straight from the bottle is too thick and viscous for my taste.

I would seriously look into finding a new school , your teachers sound like real knobs.

Look for tutorials on oil technique on you tube and i think there are some here too (not sure i just joined up!)



Good Luck!

[Elwell]

It doesn't matter which one you pick, it's a stupid assignment and you won't learn anything worthwhile about oils from doing one painting. Pick whichever you think will be easiest/quickest and is most likely to get you a good grade.
:nohope: :nohope: :nohope: :nohope: :nohope: :nohope: :nohope:

[Hexism]

Thanks for all your help guys .

I'd suggest you tell the clown you want to do direct painting, in layers

I told him this , but he went all stupid and told me that direct painting = alla prima = must be done in 1 layer , 1 sitting. :nohope:

I use a combination of blocking in the larger masses (an all over approach )and then adding details over top the paint.I use oderless paint thinner (turpenoid ,white spirits) to thin the paint and this helps it to dry quickly and make the paint easier to manipulate.
THIS is what I want to do, what do you call this technique ?

+I had a few weeks of extension to confirm on my technique , and had a chance to find another image to paint:



by the way , i remember reading a tutorial somewhere around here with step-by-step photos for an oil(?) painting but can't seem to find it now :/ It had a girl in the middle , a gate in the background , night scene.:

[Flake]

by the way , i remember reading a tutorial somewhere around here with step-by-step photos for an oil(?) painting but can't seem to find it now :/ It had a girl in the middle , a gate in the background , night scene.:

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45901&highlight=moon+called

[hitnrun]

ok:

1) blocking in masses, and then adding details sounds a lot like the technique used by the Old Masters.

2) Oils are the most "noob friendly" medium in my opinion. You make a mistake, just wait for it to dry and paint over it. They are not difficult to learn, but to really master them can take some time.

3) Your professor does sound pretty screwed up - but where I used to go to college, one of my Graphic Design professors also said "Photoshop is suppose to be for photo manipulations/effects". I firmly believe that drawing and painting on Photoshop is just something you can do with it, and that Photoshop's original purpose was indeed mainly for Graphic Design purposes.

I'll probably edit this post later - its relatively lack luster due to time constraints.

[Flake]

2) Oils are the most "noob friendly" medium in my opinion. You make a mistake, just wait for it to dry and paint over it.

You could be waiting a long time. Just wipe it off and paint it again.

[PMorin]

I use a combination of blocking in the larger masses (an all over approach )and then adding details over top the paint.I use oderless paint thinner (turpenoid ,white spirits) to thin the paint and this helps it to dry quickly and make the paint easier to manipulate.
THIS is what I want to do, what do you call this technique ?

The paint isn't usually completely dry when I add the details over top the previous layer so technically it would be called "wet on wet" painting.And if it's done in one sitting it could be considered alla prima too because your paint will dry as one layer . Hope this helps!

[Hexism]

Yes , this really helps. So anyways , I went with Impasto .. going to start my work tomorrow/day after.

We were told to use linseed oil to mix the oil paint , what does this do actually ? Is there an alternative for linseed oil ?

[Flake]

We were told to use linseed oil to mix the oil paint , what does this do actually ?
Adding linseed oil will make the paint flow a little easier, it'll also dry slower.

Most oil paint is pigment and linseed already so all you're really doing is changing the ratios.

Is there an alternative for linseed oil ?
Yup, but that's a big complicated topic best covered in books.

[Hexism]

Thanks for all the help guys , I started with my painting about 2 weeks back. I was wrong about the due date btw , its not 3 more months , its due next week :/ .. I just figured it would be 3 months because the lecturer kept telling me "3 MONTHS ! 3 MONTHS!!!" when I asked him how long will it take to dry.

I have a couple more questions now ;

1) How do you determine how good an Impasto painting is ? Does it depend on how much layers you used ? How thick it is ? How much texture there is ?

2)I used linseed oil for my background and my foreground but didn't use any for the figures in the middle , so my painting is shiny on the background - flat - shiny fruits @ the front . Is this something they wouldn't allow in schools ? is there a rule that is against this?

3) I'm doing my painting with a painterly brushstroke but there are some parts that are blended smoothly . so , again , is this allowed or should i only stick to either one ?


I'll be presenting the painting next wednesday and from what I know so far , most of the marks come from the presentation itself , so basically , if I sounded like I knew what I was doing and acted all smart-like , I'll get some decent marks .. so any points would be really appreciated.





-sorry4myengrish

[DavePalumbo]

the lecturer kept telling me "3 MONTHS ! 3 MONTHS!!!" when I asked him how long will it take to dry.

wow, this dude sounds like a crazy person. btw, my surface typically takes 1-2 days to dry, but that's working very thin.

about your other questions:

to make the whole surface a more uniform shine, you can give it a coat of retouch varnish, but only if it's all dry, obviously. Otherwise, I wouldn't worry too much about it as it can't be helped. Most instructors should understand that not all layers will have the same sheen (and even not all areas of one layer) and not care, but this dude does sound eccentric, so ???. For future reference, the common approach to working in layers with medium is "fat over lean", which means least use of medium on the early layers and heaviest use of medium on the top layers. This prevents cracking and allows the paint to dry properly.

As far as brushstrokes, the only rule is if it looks good together. There's typically going to be some variation in the level of render and with experience, you can use this to your benefit. Spending more time on key areas and leaving the less important details more suggested is a good example.

[Jem'ennuie]

Confusing thread is confusing.

I was writing something but then I just pushed the backspace button. Knock-out your teacher when he's not looking btw.

[Hexism]

Thank you for your reply DavePalumbo ,
not all layers will have the same sheen (and even not all areas of one layer)

Oh but can I still tell him that 'I used more oil for the background to bring more focus to the foreground' ? Would this be a viable explanation ?




Btw : here's what I have so far , I'm going to work more on the faces tomorrow.
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii243/Desviaciion/th_1-1.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii243/Desviaciion/?action=view&current=1-1.jpg)
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii243/Desviaciion/th_2-1.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii243/Desviaciion/?action=view&current=2-1.jpg)
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii243/Desviaciion/th_3-1.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii243/Desviaciion/?action=view&current=3-1.jpg)

[DavePalumbo]

I guess you could tell him whatever you want, but if I were you I'd say that once the piece is finished drying, you plan to even out the shine with varnishing so that it is more unified.

as far as rough and smooth brush strokes go, it looks pretty consistent from the attached photos, nothing I'd be too worried about.

[Art_Addict]

Thanks for all the help guys , I started with my painting about 2 weeks back. I was wrong about the due date btw , its not 3 more months , its due next week :/ .. I just figured it would be 3 months because the lecturer kept telling me "3 MONTHS ! 3 MONTHS!!!" when I asked him how long will it take to dry.

? Sounds like your teacher indeed doesn't really know what he's talking about. The time it takes for an oil film to 'dry' or rather cure ( oil paint oxidizes, doesn't evaporate) depends on a number of things. How thickly it is painted, what medium used, etc... So it can be anywhere between a couple of hours, several days, to weeks... Having said that, there's a difference between being dry to the touch and being fully dry on the inside. Thick impasto paint can take very very long to be completely cured on the inside. One of the reasons why this is an issue for painters is the preferred waiting time for a painting to be varnished. During oxidation the oil paint film can expand and contract. If a varnish layer is put on before the paint is fully dry it will a)seal off the paint from air and b) be prone to cracking as the varnish when it hardens, at least to my knowledge, isn't able to move much.

1) How do you determine how good an Impasto painting is ? Does it depend on how much layers you used ? How thick it is ? How much texture there is ?

None of those. What you are talking about is a question of style. You could argue that your painting, at least on a personal level, is successful when you fully achieved the goals you had set forth.

2)I used linseed oil for my background and my foreground but didn't use any for the figures in the middle , so my painting is shiny on the background - flat - shiny fruits @ the front . Is this something they wouldn't allow in schools ? is there a rule that is against this?

What Dave said. More matte areas will occur, don't worry about it. Some pigments dry more matte then others, like some earth tones, umbers,..

3) I'm doing my painting with a painterly brushstroke but there are some parts that are blended smoothly . so , again , is this allowed or should i only stick to either one ?

Again it's a style question. There's no universal law on how to apply oil paint.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean with 'allowed'. Allowed by whom? , by what? ,...


Good luck on your assignments.

[Oden]

For future reference, the common approach to working in layers with medium is "fat over lean", which means least use of medium on the early layers and heaviest use of medium on the top layers. This prevents cracking and allows the paint to dry properly.


Hey Dave (and/or other people), "fat over lean" is something (not sure why) I've always had trouble figuring out.
Are you saying that you would use the most medium (ie. linseed) on the top layer, and use basically straight-from the tube oil paints for the bottom layers?

how can one safely apply thick impasto highlights on the final layer, without it cracking then? Does it just take a lot of waiting for the rest to dry completely? I've seen a few tutorials online where the base is fairly "thin" paint, and the top layers are thicker and more opaque. Does that mean they're "fat," and actually contain more medium?

thanks!
Owen

[Bowlin]

'Fat' oil paint is oil paint straight from the tube. Mixing it with an oil makes it even 'fatter' and increases the length of time it takes to dry completely (even though it may feel dry to the touch, it will still be drying under the surface). 'Lean' oil paint is oil paint mixed with more turpentine (white spirit) than oil, or oil paint mixed with a fast-drying oil. 'Lean' oil paint dries faster than 'fat' oil paint.

If 'lean' is painted over 'fat', it will dry first, making the 'lean' layer of paint vulnerable to contraction (shrinking) and cracking when the 'fat' layer dries underneath it. Lower layers also tend to absord oil from the layers above them.Therefore every layer in an oil painting should be a little 'fatter' than the previous one, or have a greater proportion of oil in it...... I know Rowena (book cover artist) said she doesn't even use any mediums. So the rule here, would be thicker paint on top of thin paint (that's NOT using any medium at all).

[DavePalumbo]

I know Rowena (book cover artist) said she doesn't even use any mediums. So the rule here, would be thicker paint on top of thin paint (that's NOT using any medium at all).

I used to use no medium up until about two years ago. Until then I'd just thin with turps, which gives a leaner base than straight from the tube. Truly though, it's not something to be hugely concerned with, just something to be aware of. I suppose it applies more to glazing than anything else really. Nice thick strokes straight from the tube should sit fine on top.

[dbclemons]

The main issue with "fat" or "lean" layers has to deal with the drying rate, moreso than just how much oil there is; although, that's part of it. You could possibly add a new layer that has just as much oil as the previous layer since the previous layer has already started to dry. Just don't add a new layer that has less oil or that will dry faster.

Other things may affect the drying time beyond just how much oil you have, such as some pigments dry faster than others, any added driers in the oil, what kind of oil is it, what are you painting on, etc. The more complicated you make it, the more you have to be aware of what you're doing. Oil paint is pretty sturdy stuff. You have to do quite a bit to screw it up.

[Hexism]

My work is almost fully dry . I still have a few days before the presentation though.


Posted the latest work up here:
http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2121398#post2121398
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